McCartney sisters refuse to share stage with Thatcher

[joeSoap]

McCartney sisters refuse to share stage with Thatcher
03/11/2005 - 15:32:10

The campaigning sisters of a murdered Belfast man today refused to share a stage with former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher.

Claire and Catherine McCartney were both in London for the Women of the Year Awards.

But they declined an accolade when they discovered Baroness Thatcher was also being honoured.

They claimed she "inflicted injuries" on their country.

[joeSoap]

Double standards or what. A few short months ago, the same McCartney sisters were on every tv and radio station pontificating that they were not in any way politically motivated, opinionated or biased. This all seems a tad two-faced, and a further cry for publicity if you ask me.

I have nothing but sympathy for them as regards what happened their brother, but he was killed by the same scum that Thatcher fought against tooth and nail.

[Macy]

Not particularly double standards imo - I wouldn't share a stage with the senile old witch either, bar to kick her in the head.

[carrickharp]

Not particularly double standards imo - I wouldn't share a stage with the senile old witch either, bar to kick her in the head.
Here, Here!!

[A face]

Not particularly double standards imo - I wouldn't share a stage with the senile old witch either, bar to kick her in the head.

I agree there ..... the auld battle-axe should have been kicked off the stage !!

[glentoranfan]

I have no sympathy for the two faced McCartney family. Yes, it is a sad when a family member is killed by the paramilitaries, but let's remember Robert McCartney was a provo; bandits fighting amongst bandits.

It was not long ago that the McCartneys were pro Republican movement, but as soon as they are the recieving end of violence, it is amazing how opinions change.

Refusing to share the stage with Thatcher on it is pathetic. Regardless of whether you dislike her for whatever reason, shows that they are two faced bigots. Yes, that.

[A face]

It was not long ago that the McCartneys were pro Republican movement, but as soon as they are the recieving end of violence, it is amazing how opinions change.

But were they .... were they not just ordinary people trying to get on with their lives .... "Robert McCartney was a provo" ... but weren't people/media trying to dig stuff up about this and didn't find anything. There is nothing there to say he was a provo barr rumour and labeling. Obviously i dont know but it is pointless labeling him as such if he actually wasn't.

[harry crumb]

Thatcher did so much harm to NI in her time in charge. Both sides of the divide were worse off under her iron fist.

Compare her to the way Tony Blair and to a lesser extent John Major have treated the "NI issue".

[A face]

Both sides of the divide were worse off under her iron fist.

Ahh .... i'd say everyone was worse off with her, England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales ..... There are still people waking up in cold sweats over the old bat !!

[Da Real Rover]

There are still people waking up over the old bat !!
I tripped, it was an accident !!

[glentoranfan]

But were they .... were they not just ordinary people trying to get on with their lives .... "Robert McCartney was a provo" ... but weren't people/media trying to dig stuff up about this and didn't find anything. There is nothing there to say he was a provo barr rumour and labeling. Obviously i dont know but it is pointless labeling him as such if he actually wasn't.
It has been well documented of Robert McCartney's links to the Republican movement and his family's Republican views.

It is funny that how when the organisation they supported turns against them (like it had many other Roman Catholic and Nationalist residents) their opinion so suddenly changes.


They claimed she "inflicted injuries" on their country.
To come back on that comment, what damage where the PIRA (the organisation as to whom's cause they were sympathisers) doing to their country? Hmm. I wonder. A further example of their sheer hypocrisy.
It is regretable that Robert McCartney's life ended in such a vile way, and that his family have now been forced from their home in the Short Strand, but because of their pro Irish Republican views, I am sorry that I can't say two things; firstly, I told you so. When you are linked to these people, trouble happens and secondly, you supported the actions of these people from the IRA's formation 1916, now they have happened to you and you don't like it.

Ahh .... i'd say everyone was worse off with her, England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales ..... There are still people waking up in cold sweats over the old bat !!
Although no Thatcherite myself, there are also a lot of people who recognised the benefits that she brought to her country. In the English press about her 80th birthday there was a huge article on what people thought about her. It was probably about 70/30 for Thatcher. Even a man who worked in the coal mines said that looking back now, he can see Britain was a better place for what she did.

Therefore, to say that she had done no good anywhere is wrong, as would it also be incorrect to say that she has no support.

[Speranza]

A thread riddled with inaccuracies. Robert McCartney was not a provo but was indeed socialising with one when he was brutally murdered.

The Mc Cartney's republican viewpoint didn't change after the incident in fact I distinctly remembering them stating these views a few weeks after on tv

I commend the sisters on not sharing the stage with the woman who by default killed 10 men in 1981 to show that the cathloic minority would never get their own way. What makes me laugh at this though is that they were quite prepared to shake hands with Bush a few months back. Typifies the attitude of Sinn Fein in that they see nothing outside Eire.

[glentoranfan]

I commend the sisters on not sharing the stage with the woman who by default killed 10 men in 1981 to show that the cathloic minority
That action may be commendable, but when you consider they support a movement that killed 250+ of "its" own community, Roman Catholics, that certainly takes the shine of it.

[Speranza]

When have they ever said they supported the provisionals?

[sligoman]

I have no time for them to be honest. I think they're just using their brother's death to gain a bit of publicity for themselves

[Speranza]

What a load of garbage. Do you think this is ****ing reality tv or what?

The provisional I.R.A. we have come to know in the last 30 years rose from the falls burning/curfews e.t.c. to protect their own community against flagrant oppression. The sisters are merely trying to show the same people as reneging on these principles and turning on their own, all they want is justice and to out the scum.

How do you become so cynical to think they are using the murder of their brother to up themselves in the world?

[sligoman]

What a load of garbage. Do you think this is ****ing reality tv or what?You talking to me there?:confused:

[A face]

You talking to me there?:confused:


Ahh ... yeah !! :eek: ..... feicing hell sligoman, that was some mad statement in fairness like !! :eek:

[sligoman]

Ahh ... yeah !! ..... feicing hell sligoman, that was some mad statement in fairness like !! :eek:It's my opinion, it's not gonna change, I didn't expect too many people to agree with it:D.

btw A face, you didn't have to spell fecking as feicing, it's not censored:p

[Macy]

Although no Thatcherite myself, there are also a lot of people who recognised the benefits that she brought to her country. In the English press about her 80th birthday there was a huge article on what people thought about her. It was probably about 70/30 for Thatcher. Even a man who worked in the coal mines said that looking back now, he can see Britain was a better place for what she did.

Therefore, to say that she had done no good anywhere is wrong, as would it also be incorrect to say that she has no support.
Was the Telegraph the paper by any chance? Take out her attitude to Ireland, I'd still kick her in the head on what she did to Industry, Attitude to money, Race Relations etc etc.

That former coal miner must be equally senile, either that or he managed to get a job in one of the subsidised nuclear power stations.

[dahamsta]

It has been well documented of Robert McCartney's links to the Republican movement and his family's Republican views.Care to back that up with non-partisan evidence or are you just going to fire it in there and have us all "believe" it?

Seriously, and I'm talking to everyone here, I'm not going to ban political debate across the board on Foot.ie, but I'm not putting up with that level of debate either. Either back up your points or don't make them. If people don't follow this simple rule, I will ban political debate across the board. I think that's pretty fair.

adam

[joeSoap]

ffs, she even had the audacity to 'take tea' with that murdering ***tard Pinochet. Now she should be sent to the Hague for offering to provide shelter for a mass murderer !Sure, didn't other world & national leaders such as Clinton, Reynolds, Ahern, Major, Blair et al take 'tea' with bigger murdering bast ards like Adams & McGuinness??

We too, have provided a haven for mass murderers like Adams and McGuinness by not prosecuting them and letting them have the freedom of the country.

[joeSoap]

McCartneys accused of hypocrisy over Thatcher snub
04/11/2005 - 10:47:56

A former British official has accused the sisters of murdered Belfast man Robert McCartney of hypocrisy over their decision to snub an awards ceremony in London.

Two of the 33-year-old sisters refused to attend the ceremony yesterday after learning that they would be sharing the stage with former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher.

They said Mrs Thatcher had inflicted injustices on their community in the North and they would not share the platform with her.

The McCartneys were due to receive an award because of their campaign for justice for their brother, who was beaten to death in Belfast last January, allegedly by senior IRA members.

Speaking about yesterday's snub, Bernard Ingham, Mrs Thatcher’s former press chief, accused the sisters of double standards in relation to their campaign.

"I think it is very interesting that the McCartney sisters protested at IRA thugs killing their brother," he said.

"Where were the protests when IRA thugs were killing thousands of people and were trying to blow up Mrs Thatcher? I think it is monumental hypocrisy."

[Macy]

It's bollóx joe - saying because you don't like the provo's doesn't mean you have to like thatcher or vica versa. If I hate Rovers, doesn't mean I automatically love Bohs.

Way to back up your arguement with Ingram getting on his high horse. Who's next Norman Tebitt? :rolleyes:

[joeSoap]

Perhaps I should start quoting my sources. The two main posts are news reels lifted from Breaking news.ie. My opinions on the matter are simply to state that I believe it is cant and rather hypocritical of these women to suddenly take a very pro-republican, pro-IRA stance and opinion on simply sharing a stage with a retired politician, when they castigate republicanism and the IRA and demand justice from the British because of what happened their brother.

It smacks of publicity seeking...sligoman is right.I don't for one moment condone what happened their brother, and sympathise with them for their loss, but they have been the ones to make very public demands of his killers, and they are the ones who have kept this in the limelight, by branding the IRA 'evil scum' amongst other things. Now, they're taking the moral high ground with the Brits as well over having to share a stage with a retired politician?? Just who do these women think they are? If they want to get active politically, let them join a party and do it through proper channels.

Next they will want their own weekly TV show..."How to grieve publicly and maximise its benefits":mad:

[Macy]

You're automatically assuming that "my enemies enemy is my friend". It doesn't work that way (unless your the USA). I've no time for the Provo's or Thatcher, and fail to see the hypocrisy in the McCartney sisters having no time for them either. Thatcher isn't just another retired politician, and it's totally wrong to say that to not share a stage with Thatcher is to support the RA is ridiculous imo.

Actually it smacks of a campaign by Republicans and the Brits to discredit them - they're nothing but a nuisance to both getting in the way of the plaudits for them both... I mean, have the McCartney's ever made a secret of the fact that they used to vote Sinn Fein?


Next they will want their own weekly TV show..."How to grieve publicly and maximise its benefits"
Are you going for a job in the Sinn Fein spin machine?

[joeSoap]

Are you going for a job in the Sinn Fein spin machine?
With comments like
Sure, didn't other world & national leaders such as Clinton, Reynolds, Ahern, Major, Blair et al take 'tea' with bigger murdering bast ards like Adams & McGuinness?? in previous threads, I can hardly apply for such a position ,now can I??;)

[glentoranfan]

What a load of garbage. Do you think this is ****ing reality tv or what?

The provisional I.R.A. we have come to know in the last 30 years rose from the falls burning/curfews e.t.c. to protect their own community against flagrant oppression.
With repsect, I have to say you are talking garbage. These people murdered and persecuted more of their own people than all loyalists groups put together.

There is a man that my Granda knew who he worked with in Short and Harlands. The IRA forced him to take a bomb in his car, drive it into the police station and then set it off. If he did not, he and his mother who he lived with, would be killed.

Protecting their own communities! ahahahahahahah. Rubbish.

Before, I get accused of being some bigot here, I have something else to add. The loyalists are as much hypoctites. They claimed to be for "God and Ulster" but when did God teach the following:

Drugs
Extortion
Prositution
Money Laundering
Blackmail
Murder
Robbery
Gun trafficing etc etc

The answer - never. Fighting for Ulster and "their own" communities, yeah, right. Burning RUC officers from their homes (who they would have regarded mainly as their British Police Force) Then attacking the British Crown's Army. Oh yes, and then forcing those in their areas to pay money to them, and getting young men addicted to drugs so they would have to be loyal to them. Does not computer. No godliness, No protection of their communities. All one big smoke screen for crime.

Was the Telegraph the paper by any chance? Take out her attitude to Ireland, I'd still kick her in the head on what she did to Industry, Attitude to money, Race Relations etc etc.

That former coal miner must be equally senile, either that or he managed to get a job in one of the subsidised nuclear power stations.
It was in a number of English Papers yes. Now, I am not saying Thatcher was great, I am saying that to say nobody liked her, or still does is wrong.

[Da Real Rover]

Protecting their own communities! ahahahahahahah. Rubbish.

Look the catholics in the north would be worse off if the IRA wer never in existence, the catholics in belfast wer crying out for them to protect them and thats when the Provos wer formed. Remember you reap what you sow and thats what happened after Unionist state sponsored terrosrism against a minority, remember the B specials wer recruited straight out of the ranks of the UVF. Because they wore a uniform does that make them right, does that not mean they're not terrorists, they still targeted civilians.

[Docboy]

[QUOTE=joeSoap]Sure, didn't other world & national leaders such as Clinton, Reynolds, Ahern, Major, Blair et al take 'tea' with bigger murdering bast ards like Adams & McGuinness??

By what terms are you labelling Adams & McGuinness bigger murdering bast ards than Pinochet, I believe around 3 million disappeared or were murdered under Pinochet's reign with the support of the American & British regimes. Hardly comparable to the North.

[joeSoap]

Apologies Docboy, for misrepresenting the leadership of Sinn Fein, maybe they only killed a few thousand. However, if they had a population the size of that Pinochet had to work with, who knows...

[Aldini98]

How saintly was Robert McCartney ?

In reference to Thatcher, well just look at the Belgrano, "Gothca" as the Sun so eliquently put it.

[glentoranfan]

Look the catholics in the north would be worse off if the IRA wer never in existence.
Try telling that to the friends and family of Jean McConville and the other hundreds of Roman Catholic families that the IRA tortured.

[WeAreRovers]

Try telling that to the friends and family of Jean McConville and the other hundreds of Roman Catholic families that the IRA tortured.

Yeah, you're right. Croppy lie down and live with a sectarian gerrymandered statelet. :rolleyes:

KOH

[glentoranfan]

Yeah, you're right. Croppy lie down and live with a sectarian gerrymandered statelet. :rolleyes:

KOH
So that innocent woman's killing, and many others like her's is fine then?

Killing "your own" people is hardly protecting them, nor is extorting them, or blackmailing them.

If you believe that, then you need some help.

[Speranza]

There is a man that my Granda knew who he worked with in Short and Harlands. The IRA forced him to take a bomb in his car, drive it into the police station and then set it off. If he did not, he and his mother who he lived with, would be killed.

The exact same thing happened in Derry. The nationalist man worked in the Barracks and again was forced to drive with the bomb and blow it up. Actions like that were disgusting but the original rise of the I.R.A whether you agree or not came from internment and Bloody Sunday.

The republican movement obviously contained some bad apples who were not ideological nationalists but thugs with an excuse under the cover of the troubles for enacting their hell on everyone.

[lopez]

I have no sympathy for the two faced McCartney family. Yes, it is a sad when a family member is killed by the paramilitaries, but let's remember Robert McCartney was a provo; bandits fighting amongst bandits...shows that they are two faced bigots. Yes, that.Ahhh the 'B' word. Always wheeled out for anyone that supports the integration of the six counties into an all-Ireland state. And as for McCartney being a Provo where's the evidence? I mean I've got a book at home that puts 'respectable' politicians such as David Trimble and Nelson McCausland (well we'll forget about McCausland) as the bankrollers of Billy Wright and his gang in the nineties and that this is why Wright ended up wasted in such a suspicious manner. 'The Committee' proves quite persuading but its accusations would be laughed off on OWC. I'm sure it's not beyond your comprehension that some people believe in Irish re-unification, with or without violence, without supporting drug dealing and kangaroo community courts, just as you'd agree not every unionist is a bigoted religious evangelist space cadet with a doctorate from a dodgy university or a tatooed, wetbedding, psychopathic drug peddlar. (Oh and by the way, supporting violence within nationalist/republican politics reflects the very widespread support for it amongst 'respectable' unionists from 1912 to the present day).
...When you are linked to these people, trouble happens and secondly, you supported the actions of these people from the IRA's formation 1916, now they have happened to you and you don't like it.Oh so now the 26 counties is a 'terrorist state' for standing up for its independence? :rolleyes:

Killing "your own" people is hardly protecting them, nor is extorting them, or blackmailing them.I can't see how killing civillians on the other side is any better.

By what terms are you labelling Adams & McGuinness bigger murdering bast ards than Pinochet, I believe around 3 million disappeared or were murdered under Pinochet's reign with the support of the American & British regimes. Hardly comparable to the North.I think the number was considerably smaller (30 to 300K) but it must be remembered that Chile's current population is 15m. Anyway, the fat lady has yet to sing for Pinochite. He's recently been stripped of immunity to prosecution by the Santiago government. If he get's to court, half the room will no doubt be taken up by his breathing equipment, but at least getting him there is something. A far worse leader is Milosevic who doesn't attract the same hysteria amongst the Left as Thatcher's toy boy, mainly due to him being a victim and not a beneficiary of the Americans.

...I wouldn't share a stage with the senile old witch either, bar to kick her in the head.Agreed. The cava's going to flow in my crib when the reaper collects that old c*nt.:mad:

[Green Tribe]

. The cava's going to flow in my crib when the reaper collects that old c*nt.:mad:

:D Ha hah!! :D

[glentoranfan]

Ahhh the 'B' word. Always wheeled out for anyone that supports the integration of the six counties into an all-Ireland state.
Ehh, no. A word used to desribe criminal, terrorist scum, and by that I don't mean just the IRA.


Oh so now the 26 counties is a 'terrorist state' for standing up for its independence? :rolleyes:
I mentioned the IRA, that has nothing to do with the Irish Republic Government or State.


I can't see how killing civillians on the other side is any better.
Indeed had you read the thread you will have seen I condemed all violence from whoever. In fact, for your benefit, I will repeat myself,

"Before, I get accused of being some bigot here, I have something else to add. The loyalists are as much hypoctites. They claimed to be for "God and Ulster" but when did God teach the following:

Drugs
Extortion
Prositution
Money Laundering
Blackmail
Murder
Robbery
Gun trafficing etc etc

The answer - never. Fighting for Ulster and "their own" communities, yeah, right. Burning RUC officers from their homes (who they would have regarded mainly as their British Police Force) Then attacking the British Crown's Army. Oh yes, and then forcing those in their areas to pay money to them, and getting young men addicted to drugs so they would have to be loyal to them. Does not computer. No godliness, No protection of their communities. All one big smoke screen for crime."

Basically Lopez, with repsect, I suggest you come of your high horse and read what people say on here properly before jumping to conclusions.

I also find it startling that so many on here condon the actions of a terrorist group who have killed thousands of people, wounded many more, and not to mention the trauma caused to those people's families and friends.

But I suppose, 90% wasn't happening on your back door, so I have to forgive you for your ignorance.

When you hear what most Roman Catholic people in the North have to say about the IRA, I think you all will get a shock. Like I say, they persecuted more of their own people than all, yes, the loyalist scum put together. As I also said, loyalists were no better.

[Pat O' Banton]

But I suppose, 90% wasn't happening on your back door, so I have to forgive you for your ignorance.

When you hear what most Roman Catholic people in the North have to say about the IRA, I think you all will get a shock. Like I say, they persecuted more of their own people than all, yes, the loyalist scum put together. As I also said, loyalists were no better.

Forgive any misinterpretation but your post seems to be suggesting that you should not have an opinion on anything that doesn't happen outside your immediate area or that by not coming from an area means that you can have no definitative knowlege of a situation. This pretty much proscribes anyone from having an opinion on anything going on from beyond a fifty mile radius, hardly something that encourages people to broaden their horizons. ('Iraq?, well I'd like to comment but I've never been further east then Bilaricky')

Of course Lopez, people in the south, some people in Britain know that their are some RC's that hate the IRA with a passion and protestants that revile loyalists. Being from outside a particular area does not mean that you have to remain ignorant.

[Speranza]

Your view on people's opinion of the I.R.A is incorrect. Personally most people I know seen a need for the I.R.A during the 70's and 80's to counter-act the behaviour of Thatcher and governments before her. People acknowledge that atrocities such as Enniskillen and Warrington shouldn't have happened but surely the nationalist community weren't expected to lie down and accept oppression.

The same people are now growing to hate the provisional movement because of incidents such as the Robert McCartney killing, Northern bank and general way Sinn Fein conduct themselves in and around what were Republican strongholds. I for one was shocked and by the continued success of Sinn Fein in the last election but when you ahve such feeble opposition in the S.D.L.P it was inevitable.

[Pat O' Banton]

Who's opinion?

[glentoranfan]

Forgive any misinterpretation but your post seems to be suggesting that you should not have an opinion on anything that doesn't happen outside your immediate area or that by not coming from an area means that you can have no definitative knowlege of a situation.
No. I am saying that if Dublin was being bombed every day for 30 years you would have a very different perception.


Your view on people's opinion of the I.R.A is incorrect. Personally most people I know seen a need for the I.R.A during the 70's and 80's to counter-act the behaviour of Thatcher and governments before her. People acknowledge that atrocities such as Enniskillen and Warrington shouldn't have happened but surely the nationalist community weren't expected to lie down and accept oppression.

The same people are now growing to hate the provisional movement because of incidents such as the Robert McCartney killing, Northern bank and general way Sinn Fein conduct themselves in and around what were Republican strongholds. I for one was shocked and by the continued success of Sinn Fein in the last election but when you ahve such feeble opposition in the S.D.L.P it was inevitable.
Firstly, Nationalists were hardly "oppressed", or certainly not to the degree that you made out. Not being able to get as good accomodation from the DHSS is hardly comparible to the treatment of the Jews by Hitler or the Russians under Stalin.

I do accept that they should not have just laid down and take British rule, but the place for negotiations is at the ballot box, not with guns and bombs.

I accept also that Nationalists in the 70s were glad of the Provisional movement to come about, however, by the early 80s most wanted rid of them, or at the very least a change of attitude. That imtimidation still goes on today. Paramilitaries from both sides are still running rampart.

[lopez]

Ehh, no. A word used to desribe criminal, terrorist scum, and by that I don't mean just the IRA.
Of which you have offered no evidence that says that any of the McCartney sisters were members of the IRA.

I mentioned the IRA, that has nothing to do with the Irish Republic Government or State.
You mentioned 1916. Are the Ulster Volunteers who went on to fight in WW1 the same as Billy Wright? You may not like it - and neither do I expect you to, nor care if you don't - but the uprising was to not to put too fine a point on it, a watershed in the making of the modern Irish state. Now that the IRA has 'stood down,' the Irish government - by commemorating its 90th anniversary next year - can put it back to where it belongs, as the birth of the modern state.

Indeed had you read the thread you will have seen I condemed all violence from whoever.
That isn't in doubt. What you suggest is that if the IRA had stuck to killing Prods then that would fine with us. It isn't. High horse and jumping to conclusions it may well be, but it beats emotive words like 'bigot' and unsubstantiated rumours.

I also find it startling that so many on here condon the actions of a terrorist group who have killed thousands of people, wounded many more, and not to mention the trauma caused to those people's families and friends.
Sorry, but who's jumping to conclusions now? I can't find anyone that condones the killing of civilians on these pages.

But I suppose, 90% wasn't happening on your back door, so I have to forgive you for your ignorance.
Is there some sort of competition on who suffered the most here? You might be forgiven to think that I actually reside in Andalucia but actually I've worked in London since my teens. While there was no email service back in the eighties so that the Provos could contact all the Paddies to let us know that they were planning to bomb this place or that, but as the Leeds four proved recently when Muslims were also their victims, I'd doubt they would have used the service either.


When you hear what most Roman Catholic people in the North have to say about the IRA, I think you all will get a shock. Like I say, they persecuted more of their own people than all, yes, the loyalist scum put together. As I also said, loyalists were no better.Taken all in, you are probably right about the persecution (I'll bet you are wrong about the murder count though). Kangaroo courts, kneecapping of joyriders and petty thieves, the reluctance to allow the police to investigate matters outside the 'political' orbit - e.g. Joyriding and theft - as the SF spinners might say. But none of this dented the appeal of Irish nationalism amongst nearly half the population. In fact SF's vote has grown. But, as some posters have already stated, who's to blame for starting all this? The IRA weren't formed in 1916 and they were verging on a bunch of tree loving hippies in 1969 when the baloon went up.

[Pat O' Banton]

No. I am saying that if Dublin was being bombed every day for 30 years you would have a very different perception.




Yes you pretty much are saying that your opinion is not or less valid due to location. You should not lightly dismiss the opinions of other simply on the grounds of location, yes people will have different opinions due to place of upbrining; its diversity and a way we can learn not not something to be dismissed due to the fact that you disagree with it.

[glentoranfan]

Of which you have offered no evidence that says that any of the McCartney sisters were members of the IRA.
Again, I never said that any of the sisters did.


What you suggest is that if the IRA had stuck to killing Prods then that would fine with us. It isn't. High horse and jumping to conclusions it may well be, but it beats emotive words like 'bigot' and unsubstantiated rumours.
I suggested that from what I had read, it seems that the majority of people involved with this thread believe that setting up a terrorist body is legitimate, which, for whatever reason, it is clearly not.

can't find anyone that condones the killing of civilians on these pages.
If that is what you think I am sorry, but surely you must accept that by saying the setting up of a terror group is fine, and with killing being the natural thing to do by them, then killing must be right. The IRA, or any terror group are not going to start up and not terrorise as the name would imply.


Is there some sort of competition on who suffered the most here?
Certainly not. A killer is a killer regardless of whether he has killed one or one hundred. It was just a figure I quoted to back up my point.

I'll bet you are wrong about the murder count though.
That is what I thought when I first read that, but it's true.

But none of this dented the appeal of Irish nationalism amongst nearly half the population.
Nationalism and Republicanism are two seperate political ideals whereby a Republican will use violence, and a Nationalist will aim to get a United Ireland by political methods: the correct way and people I have a lot of respect for, ie. John Hume.

They were verging on a bunch of tree loving hippies in 1969 when the baloon went up.
Well, not 100% true, as the IRA had carried out a number of attacks pre 1969. If you mean the attacks had decreased then fair enough.

Yes you pretty much are saying that your opinion is not or less valid due to location. You should not lightly dismiss the opinions of other simply on the grounds of location, yes people will have different opinions due to place of upbrining; its diversity and a way we can learn not not something to be dismissed due to the fact that you disagree with it.
I did not dismiss anything about people's opinion. Firstly, I am into politics in a fairly big way. I have opinions on America, and for instance Iraq. Secondly, I have never dismissed anybody's opinion on this or anyother forum, and I am sorry if I have come across as so. Have I ever been cheeky in any of my replies on this thread?

I would say though that if you lived in the town or city where all these attrocities were happening, your opinion would be different or more right wing.

I would also add I have never dismissed an opinion of a difference of upbringing. Indeed, I am from a mixed family. My father was a Protestant Policeman and my mother is from a Roman Catholic background. I know both opinions on things fairly well. I don't say to my mother, "Hey, I am not talking to you because (for whatever reason) I have formed a political belief that may be different to yours."

Regards.

[lopez]

Again, I never said that any of the sisters did..
So you're reference to them being 'two faced bigots' was merely down to them not sharing a stand with Thatch or that they voted Sinn Fein.


If that is what you think I am sorry, but surely you must accept that by saying the setting up of a terror group is fine, and with killing being the natural thing to do by them, then killing must be right. The IRA, or any terror group are not going to start up and not terrorise as the name would imply..
My own personal view is that the setting up of the IRA was inevitable considering what happened during both the quest for Home Rule (which incidently was autonomy within a British state) and later in Northern Ireland. One must remember that it was a virtually useless IRA under Cathal Goulding that led to a situation where nationalists were 48 hours from being driven out of Belfast. Only the humiliating sight of British troops sent by Whitehall to'keep the peace' prevented this. True, things on the whole weren't as bad as it was for the Jews in Europe (as Father Reid has alluded to) but then neither was a 32 county republic going to end with the gassing of the entire British population of Ireland, but that didn't stop the threat of a civil war both before and after WW1. As for violence, personally I'm not a pacifist. The fact that it is fine to bomb the f*ck out of someone if it comes from a legal government is also irrelevent IMO.

That is what I thought when I first read that, but it's true..
What are your sources? http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/sutton.htm has a list of killings by the IRA from 1969-93. The IRA killed 65 alleged informers, 44 through 'feud killings', 158 'others' and 406 whom Dubya and co. would class as collaterell damage, not all of whom would be nationalist, making a maximum total of 673 Catholics (excluding Police and soldiers) killed by the IRA. In the same list Loyalists already beat that number with 713 sectarian murders. This is added with 169 Republican activists murdered by Loyalists and British forces and 194 civillians killed by the Police and Army, most of which the source states were Catholic. I agree that the Nationalist community (particularly in Catholic Ghettos have not led a charmed life under the Provos but I disagree with the figure that more Nationalists died from the Provos than the combined Loyalist/Crown Forces.

Nationalism and Republicanism are two seperate political ideals whereby a Republican will use violence, and a Nationalist will aim to get a United Ireland by political methods: the correct way and people I have a lot of respect for, ie. John Hume..
The difference as you rightly state is the method to achieve such a state. In the Irish context however, historically peacefull negotiations have always failed (prime example: The quest for Home Rule) which is partially the problem. Even the present situation which was achieved by parties agreeing to follow peaceful methods after 25 years of carnage, agreed to a solution that was virtually the same that was on offer in 1974 of which most 'constitutional' unionists had already rejected.

Well, not 100% true, as the IRA had carried out a number of attacks pre 1969. If you mean the attacks had decreased then fair enough..
I was reffering to the IRA leadership under Cathal Goulding that had already sought to follow the path of 'peace' come 1969 following a non-sectarian Marxist-Leninist revolutionism favoured of the time, a road that saw the 'officials' morph into the Democratic Left/Workers Party.

[Speranza]

glentoranfan, how exactly were catholics supposed to bring about a change through the ballot box when gerrymandering was in place?

Your comment about Catholics getting a raw deal by the DhSS being the only form of oppression is absolutly pathetic and inaccurate. I just hope everyone else reading this doesn't share your blinkered vision of Irish history. Internment, B-specials, Falls curfew, Bloody Sunday....... I could go on but it would just bring about the old "stope playing the victim" i.e. "ignore the past" corker used by bigots.

[dfx-]

:rolleyes: at the whole thread.

[glentoranfan]

So you're reference to them being 'two faced bigots' was merely down to them not sharing a stand with Thatch or that they voted Sinn Fein.
My reference was to them supporting a terror group who inflicted more damage "to [their] country" than any world government.


Your comment about Catholics getting a raw deal by the DhSS being the only form of oppression is absolutly pathetic and inaccurate.
That was me quoting one example. I know for a fact their were a lot more things than that, and I would be lying blatently if I said otherwise. However, to say Roman Catholics were treated the same as the Jews were by Hitler is equally, if not more farsical.

Bloody Sunday
I would point out it was Sinn Fein's own Martin McGuinness that shot at the army and caused it to kit off. I would suggest had he not, things would not have happened as they did.

As for violence, personally I'm not a pacifist
Nor am I. There are times when force is right. However, when? If the IRA's cause is just, how many other terrorist groups are just? Al Quaeda, the Taliban, ETA ... Are they right?

Anyway, look, we are going around in circles here and eventually disappear up our arses. I have my opinion, and you have yours as you are more than entitled to do so. Indeed, I have learnt a thing or two and it has been interesting.

Regards.