Northern Ireland V Wales

[holidaysong]

2-0 to Wales at half-time (Simon Davies & Carl Robinson). Wales also had a penalty saved and Northern Ireland had a goal disallowed for offside. There was some disgusting booing during the anthems at the beginning..:(

Good game, live on BBC 1 NI.

[Poor Student]

Hartson also getting booed heavily. What's the flag "Say no" all about?:confused: They are a truly awful side. All graft, little skill.

[holidaysong]

Keith Gillespie gets one back.

[ifk101]

2-1 now.

[holidaysong]

2-2 now! Don't know what Lawrie was feeding them at half-time!

[Plastic Paddy]

Ahh, good old inclusive Norn Iron fans, with their gutsy renditions of Rule Britannia... sure that's Football for All in action. :rolleyes:

:ball: PP

[thejollyrodger]

wow what a come back

[holidaysong]

Are you watching Brian Kerr? :D;)

[holidaysong]

3-2 to Wales now, Giggs with a penalty.

[Fortuna1886]

Ahh, good old inclusive Norn Iron fans, with their gutsy renditions of Rule Britannia... sure that's Football for All in action. :rolleyes:

:ball: PP

I was at the game and honestly didn't hear rule Britannia, if you heard it fair enough, but surely its wrong to label all Norn Iron supporters bigots for singing a song.

[Fortuna1886]

Hartson also getting booed heavily. What's the flag "Say no" all about?:confused: They are a truly awful side. All graft, little skill.
Point 1 - the flag is a refernce to the proposed new stadium at the Maze. Wrong place and at 42000 seats far to big, a white elephant in the making.

Point 2- Yeah, faily poor in the first half but 2nd half was a vast improvement, should have gotten a draw at least.

woulda, shoulda, coulda didnta:(

[Plastic Paddy]

I was at the game and honestly didn't hear rule Britannia, if you heard it fair enough, but surely its wrong to label all Norn Iron supporters bigots for singing a song.

It was loud and clear to those viewing on TV. :eek:

Fortuna, let's get this straight. I didn't and wouldn't call your supporters bigots, but I do think the choice of song was, at best, unfortunate if you/the IFA seriously want to attract support from "all sections of the community".

:ball: PP

[-lamb-]

a couple of points -

rule brittania: i don't like it, never have, but as far as i could tell it was sung by a section in the kop for the same reason the welsh anthem was booed (not that i was happy with that either) - because they booed ours in cardiff and berated anything british.

all inclusiveness: tell me this (not agreeing or disagreeing with this comment but just an observation), whats the point in us trying to be all inclusive when the people we want to try and include don't want included and, indeed, most will do everything in their power NOT to be included?
last match and this match i have seen RoI shirtwearers throwing bricks at cars and buses travelling along the westlink in belfast. where is the inclusivity there? its all too easy to give out at the IFA for not being inclusive but is it REALLY their fault, or NI fans fault that due to political circumstances a largish section of people don't want to be included?

the game: we deserved a draw. let in 2 goals through sloppy play, came back well, were denied 2 good penalty calls and were beaten by a good freekick and dodgy ref.

[glentoranfan]

a couple of points -

rule brittania: i don't like it, never have, but as far as i could tell it was sung by a section in the kop for the same reason the welsh anthem was booed (not that i was happy with that either) - because they booed ours in cardiff and berated anything british.

all inclusiveness: tell me this (not agreeing or disagreeing with this comment but just an observation), whats the point in us trying to be all inclusive when the people we want to try and include don't want included and, indeed, most will do everything in their power NOT to be included?
last match and this match i have seen RoI shirtwearers throwing bricks at cars and buses travelling along the westlink in belfast. where is the inclusivity there? its all too easy to give out at the IFA for not being inclusive but is it REALLY their fault, or NI fans fault that due to political circumstances a largish section of people don't want to be included?
I would have to agree with all that. If they don't want to be included, the IFA can't force them, and throwing bricks and bottles is hardly evidence that they firstly want to be included and secondly, should be included. Besides, many nationalists from N. Ireland make a conscious decision to support the Republic.

As for the match, N. Ireland deserved a draw at least. The ref should never have given that free kick across the box. The Welsh git acted and got away with it. Meanwhile, N. Ireland who generally played better througout the game should have had two penalties.

The ref allowed them to get away with murder and cost us the game. We deserved something.

[crc]

It is well established that a large number of people in NI don't want to be included. But the talk about creating an inclusive cross-community atmosphere is about making those Catholics who are so inclined feel welcome at IFA/NI games.

Not all Catholics/Nationalists wear RoI shirts and throw bricks at cars. Some of them do attend NI games and many more used to (admittedly when the team was doing better) and would again in the right circumstances.

Unfortunately I didn't see either game on Saturday (maybe just as well), because I was coming back from the US, but I was diappointed that NI lost, and hope you get a good result tonight (a win would get you 3rd, right?)

[Castle Barracks]

To put the boot on the other foot!If Ireland ever achieved unity,how would fans of the Unionist section of the community feel about supporting the Irish Republic team?

[crc]

To put the boot on the other foot!If Ireland ever achieved unity,how would fans of the Unionist section of the community feel about supporting the Irish Republic team?
Its a good point, and from the previous booing of Rangers players there would appear to be cause for concern. I don't think either side has a spotless record, and Irish people need to respect each other before we can all fully enjoy this island we share.

But the Ranger-players booing situation is nowhere near as bad or hostile as Windsor park has been (in the past). I doubt whether any Irishman supporting the boys in Green (in either code) in Lansdowne Road would get a hard time simply because of their politics.

I'd love to see a single team (God knows we could both desperately do with pooling international resources at the moment), but a lot needs to change in the southern mentality (i.e. towards parity of esteem) as much as it does in the northern Unionist position before that can happen.

[Gerrit]

NI should have gotten a penalty in the last minute. Apart from that the Welsh had the better chances and deserved the win.



About the sectarianism: Lamb has a very good point which I also already made by the way in another topic. The vast majority of Nationalists here would still support ROI over NI even if the Rule Britannia chants were banned from Windsor Park. So sectarianism does work in two directions.

And calling the "good old NI fans" all bigots and calling NI an "awful side" is pathetic. That's blowing up the bridges built by the Setanta Cup.

First of all let me make clear that I try to stay neutral as I abviously have reasons enough to sympathise with both teams on the island. I also disapprove with booing the Welsh anthem (though they did the same thing in Cardiff + physically attacked NI fans, which did not happen here with any travelling Welsh fan !) and the IFA should kick that minority out of Windsor as they give the whole group a bad name.
The vast majority of NI fans are great lads, I have attended ROI games when I lived in Dublin and have attended a few NI games already since having moved here. The atmosphere in Windsor is better in general than in Lansdowne, and that's an honest judgement without trying to chose sides. The sectarianists form a minority,in general NI games at Windsor equal a great atmosphere.

And on-pitch NI did better in these qualifers than ROI. With few star players they managed to beat England, while the ROI did not manage to beat any direct concurrent and only won vs Faroe Islands and Cyprus.

[crc]

And on-pitch NI did better in these qualifers than ROI. With few star players they managed to beat England, while the ROI did not manage to beat any direct concurrent and only won vs Faroe Islands and Cyprus.
And both finished fourth!:(

[Gerrit]

We here have our triumph vs England to hold on to. Sounds better than beating the Faroes and Cyprus, doesn't it ? :D ;)

I think because of that one win alone people here are very pleased with this campaign. I almost live next to Windsor, so I was in the middle of it that evening... People celebrated as if NI had won the world cup. I don't think anyone here will look back in anger or disappointment to this qualifying campaign.

It's a pity the island won't be there with at least 1 team. I won't dramatise however. I saw Crusaders-Bangor last weekend and had as much fun as at any World Cup game in a full arena. It's a game FFS, and having had that victory vs England and the party night afterwards you won't hear me complain of football in my adopted home country.

[dcfcsteve]

a couple of points -

rule brittania: i don't like it, never have, but as far as i could tell it was sung by a section in the kop for the same reason the welsh anthem was booed (not that i was happy with that either) - because they booed ours in cardiff and berated anything british.

all inclusiveness: tell me this (not agreeing or disagreeing with this comment but just an observation), whats the point in us trying to be all inclusive when the people we want to try and include don't want included and, indeed, most will do everything in their power NOT to be included?
last match and this match i have seen RoI shirtwearers throwing bricks at cars and buses travelling along the westlink in belfast. where is the inclusivity there? its all too easy to give out at the IFA for not being inclusive but is it REALLY their fault, or NI fans fault that due to political circumstances a largish section of people don't want to be included?

the game: we deserved a draw. let in 2 goals through sloppy play, came back well, were denied 2 good penalty calls and were beaten by a good freekick and dodgy ref.

Rule Britannia : How dare the Welsh "berate anything British". Oh wait - hang on ! This was a Welsh team, not a British one... Seems the other 'home nations' have no issues asserting their own individual identities over the British one when they play representative sports under their own banners. Only our good friends in Northern Ireland appear unable to present a local 'Norn Irish' identity in place of a British one. Possibly because there is no such thing as a Northern Irish identity ? Would Linfield fans get annoyed if they played Newcastle United and the Toon Army felt it more appropriate to sing 'The Blaydon Races' than God Save the Queen...? I suspect they would. Anyhow - if you want to be with fans who will subside their 'national' identites within the uber-British one, may I suggest the Olympics...?

Inclusiveness : Firstly, it is absurd to try to suggest that the Nationalist community, lock stock and barrel, has no interest in supporting Northern Ireland. So your observation falls at the first hurdle. Secondly - it is correct that a substantial number of northern Nationalists support the Republic over the north. But tell me this : why do you think that is so ? Undoubtedly there is a 'political'/cultural angle, and also one of relative levels of success. But something also went very wrong with Northern Irish football in the late 80's and early 90's that drove a lot of nationalists away from supoorting the team. I'm talking about the rabid sectarianism that was evident on the terraces, and that has only recently been suppressed. How dare northern Catholics refuse to support their own national team, when that team's fans were often to be heard singing anti-Catholic chants at games !! I know of middle-class Catholics in Belfast who used to take their kids to Windsor Park in the 80's, until the sectarianism got to them and they stopped. Their kids now travel to watch Republic of Ireland games. Coincidence....?

As for nationalists supposedly going out of their way to NOT support the north - it cuts both ways. As Exhibit A, your honour, I present a Mr N Lennon of Lurgan Co. Armagh. A Nationalist who WANTED to play for his home nation, but was hounded out by terrace cat-calls, culminating in a bullet in the post, because he played club football for a team very closely identified with the Catholic tradition. As Exhibit B, i give you a Mr A Rogan - also turned-on regularly by his own fans at international games. Much, much worse than some spide in a Republic top chucking stones on the Westlink. And you really wonder why nationalists turned their back on the north....? And when faced with a trickle of Nationalist kids declaring for the Republic rather than the North, did the IFA attempt to understand why and tackle the core issues ? No - instead they threw their toys out of the pram and declared to FIFA that the FAI was actively poaching these kids. If Northern Ireland often struggles to get Nationalists to declare for the playing squad, and actively abuses some of those who do, how the hell do you expect it to get Nationalist support on the terraces ?

The simple fact is that, not so long ago, Northern Ireland had the unambiguous support of both sides of the divide in the North. For a variety of reaons - some out of their control, but many within their direct realm of responsibility - the North lost a large part of that support over a period of probably no more than 10 years. There are still Nationalists who do support Norn Iron - but to have this 'feck them, and feck the others if they won't support us' attitude is pathetic for a team that is trying to present itself as inclusive and which must bear a large chunk of the responsibility for many Nationalists no longer supportin it in the first place. If the positive strides made recently off the pitch continue to be combined with stronger performances on it, more Nationalists will slowly be won back to the team. But if you'd rather supporting Norn Iron was a nationalist-free affair (as some undoubtedly do) then fine - look towards kids throwing stones on the Westlink to justify an outcome that the IFA and the Norn Iron fans are largely themselves responsible for. But drop the pretence of 'inclusivessness', and forget about looking for serious grant aid for anything.

[Castle Barracks]

As a matter of interest,where do players born in Northern Ireland stand on qualifying to play for the Republic,given that the Irish constitution declares that everyone who has been,has a right to Irish citizenship?

[SaucyJack]

As a matter of interest,where do players born in Northern Ireland stand on qualifying to play for the Republic,given that the Irish constitution declares that everyone who has been,has a right to Irish citizenship?


there are about a half dozen N.I. born players in the ROI's under-age teams.

[dcfcsteve]

As a matter of interest,where do players born in Northern Ireland stand on qualifying to play for the Republic,given that the Irish constitution declares that everyone who has been,has a right to Irish citizenship?

Would've thought it was fairly straight forward. Anyone born on the island of Ireland is entitled to Irish citizenship/a passport under the Constitution. Therefore, anyone born on the island can elect to play for the Republic if they so wish.

[-lamb-]

steve, i'm not going to explain, excuse or indulge in this further than to say this-
"Firstly, it is absurd to try to suggest that the Nationalist community, lock stock and barrel, has no interest in supporting Northern Ireland." when did i ever say that? in fact i've said the VERY OPPOSITE elsewhere and been shot down (possibly by yourself) for saying it. peer pressure in strongly nationalist areas certainly had an influence. still does.

re: the lennon affair........i'm not biting. a very sad and depressing incident that has passed into history, hopefully never to be repeated.

"How dare the Welsh "berate anything British"." i knew as soon as i posted my comment that the wording wasn't what i had intended to convey. a smilie afterwards may have helped. probably not though.

if you want to come, then come. if people really want northern ireland to have representation from all sides then go, or tell others to go. don't stay away and whine your nuts off about there being hardly any representation from the catholic community. if people cared to any degree they would go regardless and be one of the people who waters down the attitude they complain about. if not then at this stage i don't really care anymore. the opportunity is there if someone wants to go. if they won't take that opportunity then they forfeit their right to voice complaint imo.

(northern ireland fan who is STILL going with friends of both catholic and protestant persuasion)

[Duncan Gardner]

Not quite straightforward Steve. As Oasis (the Government Info service) says, "Irish citizenship through birth or descent is a complex area...if you were born in Ireland and [my emphasis] your parent(s) were Irish, then you are also an Irish citizen".

On the 1 January 2005 the new Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004 came into effect. Children born on or after the 1 January 2005 of non-national parents are not automatically entitled to Irish citizenship.

[dcfcsteve]

Not quite straightforward Steve. As Oasis (the Government Info service) says, "Irish citizenship through birth or descent is a complex area...if you were born in Ireland and [my emphasis] your parent(s) were Irish, then you are also an Irish citizen".

On the 1 January 2005 the new Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004 came into effect. Children born on or after the 1 January 2005 of non-national parents are not automatically entitled to Irish citizenship.

Fair point Duncan. But in the context of Northerners, they are entitled to an Irish passport assuming one or more parent was also from the island of Ireland (which would be the vast majority of the North).

[dcfcsteve]

if you want to come, then come. if people really want northern ireland to have representation from all sides then go, or tell others to go. don't stay away and whine your nuts off about there being hardly any representation from the catholic community. if people cared to any degree they would go regardless and be one of the people who waters down the attitude they complain about. if not then at this stage i don't really care anymore. the opportunity is there if someone wants to go. if they won't take that opportunity then they forfeit their right to voice complaint imo.

(northern ireland fan who is STILL going with friends of both catholic and protestant persuasion)

Lamb - I would happily go to a Norn Iron game at Windsor, just like I go to watch Irish League games of any variety when I'm home (I live in London). For the record - I was a Northern Ireland supporter in the 80's (until Derry City joined the League of Ireland, which influenced my views a lot), and I have also been to seen Northern Ireland play at underage level (not involving the Republic).

But my presence at a Norn Iron full international now would be driven more by curiousity and a love of football, rather than a genuine heartfelt support for the team that supposedly represents the 'nation' where I was born and bred. As I've mentioned previously - I have an issue with a Northern Irish team who's official symbolism, and a large section of its fan-base, explicitly and exclusively assert the symbolism of only one community within the province.

Not feeling comfortable about something doesn't mean you don't care about it. Again, you're blaming Nationalists themselves for their 'stay-away' attitude - rather than acknowledging there is still more to be done to make supporting Northern Ireland a more welcoming and 'neutral' atmosphere (e.g. the anthem).

If the IFA and Northern Irish fans can genuinely hold their hands up and say 'the team belongs to everyone, we've set everything up to reflect that, and there's nothing more we can do now', then I would applaud their actions and ask no more of them. But that period in time is still some way away (though thankfully it does appear to be getting closer). Until such a time, there will always be justifiable reasons for criticising the set-up - regardless of whether one chooses to go to the games or not.

[Castle Barracks]

Steve!Are there ANY players who have fallen into this category?I also assume that players who are born in the Irish Republic and who have a parent/grandparent who was born in Northen Ireland,would be eligable to play for BOTH countries,when considering their options!Sorry if the question isn't clear!

[Krstic]

Steve!Are there ANY players who have fallen into this category?I also assume that players who are born in the Irish Republic and who have a parent/grandparent who was born in Northen Ireland,would be eligable to play for BOTH countries,when considering their options!Sorry if the question isn't clear!

Maybe Gregory campbell could answer that question as he has raised something similar in the press just last week.

He wants Unionists living in the ROI to have the right to British passports:eek:

[Roverstillidie]

my understanding is any british subject can play for any of the home nations.
there was an issue at the time of the racist referendum about the fact that it would supercede the GFA but apparantly anyone living in the north has an entitlement to an irish passport, a british one or both as per the gfa regardless.

[Krstic]

my understanding is any british subject can play for any of the home nations.
there was an issue at the time of the racist referendum about the fact that it would supercede the GFA but apparantly anyone living in the north has an entitlement to an irish passport, a british one or both as per the gfa regardless.

I don't think so.
If you are English and your parents are English and their parents are English and so on then I think you'd be stuck with England.

And our entitlement to an Irish passport is alot older than the GFA my good man:eek:

[gspain]

I don't think so.
If you are English and your parents are English and their parents are English and so on then I think you'd be stuck with England.

And our entitlement to an Irish passport is alot older than the GFA my good man:eek:

Nope Roverstilidie is correct. Anybody with a British passport can play for any of the home nations are per FIFA rules.

However in most cases the countries stick to an unwritten rule of only playing players with a connection through parentage or grandparent.
Rememebr NI turned down Alan Kernaghan eventhough his 4 grandparents were born in NI and he lived there from 4 years of age.

NI certainly chased David Johnson in the past and not sure exactly how Lawrie himself qualified to play apart from his British passport.

[Castle Barracks]

As I understand it,players are eligable to play for the country of their birth,their parents,or their grandparents birth,as agreed by the four home-based FA's!Players born outside the UK can choose any of the 4 British countries as they hold a UK passport,and are not subject to this agreement!Don't know where this would leave a player born in the Irish Republic who applies for a British passport!

[Krstic]

Nope Roverstilidie is correct. Anybody with a British passport can play for any of the home nations are per FIFA rules.

However in most cases the countries stick to an unwritten rule of only playing players with a connection through parentage or grandparent.
Rememebr NI turned down Alan Kernaghan eventhough his 4 grandparents were born in NI and he lived there from 4 years of age.

NI certainly chased David Johnson in the past and not sure exactly how Lawrie himself qualified to play apart from his British passport.

I stand corrected, although i listened to an interview with Ryan Giggs about the whole 'England Schools' thingy and he said that he wasn't eligible to play for England, only their schools team as that's where he went to school.

As for Lawrie. I think one of his parents is from Belfast, and by his surname I'd say it was his mum!!!

[Castle Barracks]

Did Northern Ireland turn Alan Kernaghan down,or was it the other way around?

[dcfcsteve]

Steve!Are there ANY players who have fallen into this category?I also assume that players who are born in the Irish Republic and who have a parent/grandparent who was born in Northen Ireland,would be eligable to play for BOTH countries,when considering their options!Sorry if the question isn't clear!

There are a number of Northerners playing for the Republic at under age level at the moment, CB. If any of them make the grade, they'll progress into the full Republic squad at some point.

For example - Derryman and Derry City player Kevin Deery was in the U21 squad for last Tuesday's game against Switzerland, having previously played at U19 level. There are others as well.

Anyone born in the Republic with a Northern parent would also be eligible to play for the North. Just like anyone born in any country with a Northern Irish parent would be eligible to play for the North. Or for any of the British 'home nations', for that matter.

[gspain]

Did Northern Ireland turn Alan Kernaghan down,or was it the other way around?

No they definitely turned him down. His 4 grandparents were from NI but his parents were both born in England, they moved "home" when he was 4. He played schoolboy football for NI but at the time they only selected players born in NI or with a NI born parent so they turned him down. He then declared for us. He qualified for an Irish passport by virtue of any of his 4 NI born grandparents.

Did ok for us too in the WC94 qualifiers, great game in Copenhagen and played well at Windsor and got dogs abuse from the home fans. Lost out then to Phil Babb for the finals.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Nope Roverstilidie is correct. Anybody with a British passport can play for any of the home nations are per FIFA rules.

However in most cases the countries stick to an unwritten rule of only playing players with a connection through parentage or grandparent.
Rememebr NI turned down Alan Kernaghan eventhough his 4 grandparents were born in NI and he lived there from 4 years of age.

NI certainly chased David Johnson in the past and not sure exactly how Lawrie himself qualified to play apart from his British passport.

Gary you're normally a bit of an oracle on these things so I verily shudder at the prospect of taking you on but I suspect yourself and rovers are wrong.

My understanding is English, Scots and Welsh (and actually ROI) born can only play for the respective association unless they qualify for another under the granny rule, NI born can play for NI or ROI (notwithstanding the Citizenship Act which will have some as yet indeterminable effect on "new" Irish and N. Irish), UK passport holders (not born in UK but naturalised) and Channel Isanders/Manx can have their pick of the four associations. Hence Guernseys finest (only:eek: :D ) stopper Trevor Woods ended up playing for NI.

[Gerrit]

Why did he chose NI over the other three??

Wasn't Le Tissier (or was it Le Saux) also from the Channel Islands? Never heard of a Manx who played for 1 of the 4 British national teams.

Note that both Man, jersey, Guernsey, Alderley and even Sark have national sides who compete in the Island Games and who will very likely participate in the World Cup for non-FIFA-nations next year.

A few questions out of interest in small countries' football:

- Man and Channel Island born players have the choice as they have a semi-independent status. But what about Shetland-born players? They are quite far from Scotland and may not feel more Scottish than English. Can they chose between the 4 as well?

- what about those from Gibraltar, Falkland Islands, Bermuda, ... ?

- what happens when Gibraltar and Falklands (who both want to join FIFA but are blocked by objections from Spain and Argentina) would be accepted? A player born there could have already played for England, but suddenly his own nation is a FIFA member. Would that take away his right to play for England any further?




As for Unionists in the ROI getting British citizenship: makes sense to me, just like Nationalists in the North can get the irish citizenship.

[davey]

[QUOTE=Gerrit

As for Unionists in the ROI getting British citizenship: makes sense to me, just like Nationalists in the North can get the irish citizenship.[/QUOTE]

Gerrit, I do cringe when you comment on Irish politics.

This is a complete non issue. The idea that there'll be hundreds of Southern born protestants queuing up to get British citizenship is laughable.

[dcfcsteve]

A few questions out of interest in small countries' football:

- Man and Channel Island born players have the choice as they have a semi-independent status. But what about Shetland-born players? They are quite far from Scotland and may not feel more Scottish than English. Can they chose between the 4 as well?

Shetland is legally and historically part of Scotland. The Channel Islands and Isle of Man (Mannin) are not legally part of any 'home nation', nor have they ever been. They have their own governments, laws and indeed taxation powers - which makes them nigh-on independent nations anyway. Therefore, whilst someone Shetland has no choice, someone from Mannin or the Channel Isles would.


- what about those from Gibraltar, Falkland Islands, Bermuda, ... ?
If they possess British passports (which the first 2 are automatically entitled to) then just like anyone else they have the choice.


- what happens when Gibraltar and Falklands (who both want to join FIFA but are blocked by objections from Spain and Argentina) would be accepted? A player born there could have already played for England, but suddenly his own nation is a FIFA member. Would that take away his right to play for England any further?
If a new FIFA nation appears, players who are eligible to play for them, but who have already played elsewhere, are allowed to switch their footballing allegiances to reflect this change in circumstances. The most recent examples would be the former Yugolsav and Soviet nations/players.


As for Unionists in the ROI getting British citizenship: makes sense to me, just like Nationalists in the North can get the irish citizenship.

Totally agree - though I think you are referring here to 'protestants' in the Republic, not 'Unionists' (very, very few Republic-born Protestants would like to see a return of the Union with Britain). But as Dvaey has pointed out - this is a non-issue. Appears to be another example of childish and pointless tit-for-tat amongst certain Unionist politicians : "Well if northern Catholics can have an Irish passport, then we want southern protestants to be entitled to a British one. Nuh-nuh..."

[Gerrit]

Don't people on the Somers islands (Bermuda) also automatically get the British citizenship? They do have an own FIFA-affiliated team and FA, unlike Falklands and Gibraltar.

[big p from owc]

It was loud and clear to those viewing on TV. :eek:

I do think the choice of song was, at best, unfortunate if you/the IFA seriously want to attract support from "all sections of the community".


i just wanted to make a quick comment on this , personally i dont sing rule britannia because it is (IMO) an england song and nothing to do with football but i dont think it is being sung to offend any section of the community , it has been sung for years " but not so much these days because of the reasons i already mentioned". what you have to remember is that there are many people out there who would never ever give our team the time of day (NOT BECAUSE NORN IRON FANS ARE BIGOTS) rather because they themselves are the bigots , these people cannot accept anything british or anything connected with the term NORTHERN IRELAND unless we are talking about a dole cheque ;) .

the good work being done by the fans and through the IFA'S football for all campaign will continue BUT it was never gonna be an overnight job.

sectarianism exists right through-out our community, on BOTH sides of the border you will find sectarian bigots but thankfully things are going in the right direction as regards norn iron games and "PARTY TUNES" at our games are becomming less & less frequent.

by far and away the vast majority of our fans take nothing to do with offensive songs but as we all know "especially from the israel game" for example , there are always a few a**holes who seek to spoil it for the REAL fans.

despite losing our last two group games " which we were pretty unlucky to lose " we have finished this group on a high and we have made real progress under laurie sanchez, i suppose what iam saying is is that it would be helpfull if people try to focus on the positives instead of always nit-picking the negatives and as i have said already , given the divided society that we live in " IT WAS NEVER GONNA BE AN OVERNIGHT JOB " .


BELIEVE. :)

PS . i write this after my first decent nights sleep in 5 or 6 days after just returning from our game against the "dirty diving austrians":mad: which despite the 2-0 scoreline we could well have won comfortably if sir dave & co had had thier shooting boots on .

anyway, bad luck on not qualifying & good luck with the draw in january

[big p from owc]

Rule Britannia : How dare the Welsh "berate anything British". Oh wait - hang on ! This was a Welsh team, not a British one... Seems the other 'home nations' have no issues asserting their own individual identities over the British one when they play representative sports under their own banners. Only our good friends in Northern Ireland appear unable to present a local 'Norn Irish' identity in place of a British one. Possibly because there is no such thing as a Northern Irish identity ? Would Linfield fans get annoyed if they played Newcastle United and the Toon Army felt it more appropriate to sing 'The Blaydon Races' than God Save the Queen...? I suspect they would. Anyhow - if you want to be with fans who will subside their 'national' identites within the uber-British one, may I suggest the Olympics...?

Inclusiveness : Firstly, it is absurd to try to suggest that the Nationalist community, lock stock and barrel, has no interest in supporting Northern Ireland. So your observation falls at the first hurdle. Secondly - it is correct that a substantial number of northern Nationalists support the Republic over the north. But tell me this : why do you think that is so ? Undoubtedly there is a 'political'/cultural angle, and also one of relative levels of success. But something also went very wrong with Northern Irish football in the late 80's and early 90's that drove a lot of nationalists away from supoorting the team. I'm talking about the rabid sectarianism that was evident on the terraces, and that has only recently been suppressed. How dare northern Catholics refuse to support their own national team, when that team's fans were often to be heard singing anti-Catholic chants at games !! I know of middle-class Catholics in Belfast who used to take their kids to Windsor Park in the 80's, until the sectarianism got to them and they stopped. Their kids now travel to watch Republic of Ireland games. Coincidence....?

As for nationalists supposedly going out of their way to NOT support the north - it cuts both ways. As Exhibit A, your honour, I present a Mr N Lennon of Lurgan Co. Armagh. A Nationalist who WANTED to play for his home nation, but was hounded out by terrace cat-calls, culminating in a bullet in the post, because he played club football for a team very closely identified with the Catholic tradition. As Exhibit B, i give you a Mr A Rogan - also turned-on regularly by his own fans at international games. Much, much worse than some spide in a Republic top chucking stones on the Westlink. And you really wonder why nationalists turned their back on the north....? And when faced with a trickle of Nationalist kids declaring for the Republic rather than the North, did the IFA attempt to understand why and tackle the core issues ? No - instead they threw their toys out of the pram and declared to FIFA that the FAI was actively poaching these kids. If Northern Ireland often struggles to get Nationalists to declare for the playing squad, and actively abuses some of those who do, how the hell do you expect it to get Nationalist support on the terraces ?

The simple fact is that, not so long ago, Northern Ireland had the unambiguous support of both sides of the divide in the North. For a variety of reaons - some out of their control, but many within their direct realm of responsibility - the North lost a large part of that support over a period of probably no more than 10 years. There are still Nationalists who do support Norn Iron - but to have this 'feck them, and feck the others if they won't support us' attitude is pathetic for a team that is trying to present itself as inclusive and which must bear a large chunk of the responsibility for many Nationalists no longer supportin it in the first place. If the positive strides made recently off the pitch continue to be combined with stronger performances on it, more Nationalists will slowly be won back to the team. But if you'd rather supporting Norn Iron was a nationalist-free affair (as some undoubtedly do) then fine - look towards kids throwing stones on the Westlink to justify an outcome that the IFA and the Norn Iron fans are largely themselves responsible for. But drop the pretence of 'inclusivessness', and forget about looking for serious grant aid for anything.
steve , constantly harping back to the bad old days of the 80s & 90s will not help the situation, lets not get into the politics of whataboutary , (we can all do that) the point here is that huge strides are being made by the IFA AND the northern ireland fans to stamp out this problem .

i tell you what mate , you tell me what we would need to do to convince you to again start supporting your country "northern ireland" ? :cool:

judging by the sometimes aggressive tone of some of your posts and your apparent strong anti unionist feelings iam intrigued to hear this. :rolleyes:

ps . i wonder who it was that let the cat out of the bag about it being the official northern ireland fan club that sent the bullet to neil lennon ? :rolleyes: (if it werent so serious it would be laughable) now we "the fans" are also to blame for sending him the bullet :confused: pathetic mate , truly pathetic, also you accuse of having no identity but when we display our own national flag and identify with it WE ARE BIGOTS, either we are to have our own identity or we are not , make your mind up !!!

http://www.flagsonline.it/Bandiere/bangrandi/northern-ireland.jpg

get rid of the stadium
get rid of the flag
get rid of the anthem
get rid of the songs
WE ALL KNOW WHAT WOULD BE NEXT to get rid of , DONT WE ?

much work will continue to be done to make football TRULY for all in northern ireland but if you seriously think that we will sell our souls merely to pander to people who mostly would be glad to see the back of us " not just as a team but as a people " then iam pleased to tell you that it will be a cold day in hell before that happens , our team & it's fans are not about to don " sack cloth & ashes just yet " .

steve i would encourage you to come to a northern ireland game and see for yourself how much things have changed since you were last there "which must be at least a quarter of a century ago" see for yourself that the mood has changed and real progress has been made & continues to be made , merely scoffing from a distance behind a keyboard on your experiances more than 25 years ago hardly makes you an authority on OUR team as it is today. DONT YOU THINK ?

[dcfcsteve]

steve , constantly harping back to the bad old days of the 80s & 90s will not help the situation, lets not get into the politics of whataboutary , (we can all do that) the point here is that huge strides are being made by the IFA AND the northern ireland fans to stamp out this problem .

I acknowledged this in my last post, and in previous ones on this issue !!!


i tell you what mate , you tell me what we would need to do to convince you start supporting your country "northern ireland" ? :cool:

My own views :
- Drop God Save the Queen (both on and off the terraces, although I'll accept it's much harder to 'drop it' as a fan's chant).
- Consider an alterantive 'flag' (though this isn't that big an issue for me personally, and is a much bigger topic than just football).
- Move games to a 'neutral' venue (steps are being made along these lines).,
- Introduce clearly stated policy of removing from the ground anyone singing sectarian songs (the definition of which would need to be clearly defined). I'd be delighted if the FAI adopted a similar policy as well (would be even more happy if they denied access to anyone in a Celtic top full-stop.... ;)

The above would genuinely help me feel more comfortable supporting the Northern Ireland team emotionally. Can i repeat again what may seem an outrageous assertion : that I have no strong urge to sit in a sporting venue and hear ANYONE around me singing/making anti-Catholic chants/remarks, whilst watching a team that is consciously draping itself in the symbolism of only one community in our divided province. Is that REALLY such an unreasonable position to take...? I appreciate that big strides are and have been made - but can you look me in the eye and honestly say that no more can be done to make Northern Ireland matchday's a positive and comfortable experience for EVERYONE in the province...? Meanwhile - if I'm home and the North have a senior game on I will make an effort to head along to it anyway to see for myself what's happening at Windsor Park these days. Hopefully I'll have a crackin' time and persuade my Belfast-based football loving friends of both religions to go along in future as well.


judging by the sometimes aggressive tone of some of your posts and your apparent strong anti unionist feelings iam intrigued to hear this. :rolleyes:

PLEASE explain how challenging the clearly one-sided symbolism of the Northern Ireland team and a large section of its fans makes me anti-Unionist?? Please don't try to dismiss and deride my comments with a 'sure he's only an aul bigot' arguement. It really doesn't wash....


ps . i wonder who it was that let the cat out of the bag about it being the official northern ireland fan club that sent the bullet to neil lennon ? :rolleyes: (if it werent so serious it would be laughable) now we "the fans" are also to blame for sending him the bullet :confused: pathetic mate , truly pathetic.

I didn't say that "you the fans" were to blame for that episode. I seriously doubt the official supporters club had anything to do with it, and wasn't actually aware of that story/rumour anyway. But it's just like "they, the fans" aren't to blame for kids in Republic tops chucking stones at cars on the Westlink. It cuts both ways - so why only criticise one assertion, and not the other ?

I hope the above has helped clarify my views and thoughts on this.

[dcfcsteve]

steve , constantly harping back to the bad old days of the 80s & 90s will not help the situation, lets not get into the politics of whataboutary , (we can all do that) the point here is that huge strides are being made by the IFA AND the northern ireland fans to stamp out this problem .

i tell you what mate , you tell me what we would need to do to convince you to again start supporting your country "northern ireland" ? :cool:

judging by the sometimes aggressive tone of some of your posts and your apparent strong anti unionist feelings iam intrigued to hear this. :rolleyes:

ps . i wonder who it was that let the cat out of the bag about it being the official northern ireland fan club that sent the bullet to neil lennon ? :rolleyes: (if it werent so serious it would be laughable) now we "the fans" are also to blame for sending him the bullet :confused: pathetic mate , truly pathetic, also you accuse of having no identity but when we display our own national flag and identify with it WE ARE BIGOTS, either we are to have our own identity or we are not , make your mind up !!!

http://www.flagsonline.it/Bandiere/bangrandi/northern-ireland.jpg

get rid of the stadium
get rid of the flag
get rid of the anthem
get rid of the songs
WE ALL KNOW WHAT WOULD BE NEXT to get rid of , DONT WE ?

much work will continue to be done to make football TRULY for all in northern ireland but if you seriously think that we will sell our souls merely to pander to people who mostly would be glad to see the back of us " not just as a team but as a people " then iam pleased to tell you that it will be a cold day in hell before that happens , our team & it's fans are not about to don " sack cloth & ashes just yet " .

steve i would encourage you to come to a northern ireland game and see for yourself how much things have changed since you were last there "which must be at least a quarter of a century ago" see for yourself that the mood has changed and real progress has been made & continues to be made , merely scoffing from a distance behind a keyboard on your experiances more than 25 years ago hardly makes you an authority on OUR team as it is today. DONT YOU THINK ?

Jeez Big P - you must have had a bad morning or something, as the tone of your message has been heavily edited (the original appears in my response above, for the record) !

I've said what I have to say. You can be paranoid if you like and refuse to believe that criticism of the Northern Irish set-up can ever be anything other than anti-Unionist propaganda that will never be sated until the protestant people of Ulster are forever banished into the sea. If you're going to refuse to accept that I even have a valid point, without questioning my motives and agenda, then there really is no point us having such a discussion.

Everything else I hope I've tackled in my response above.

[big p from owc]

Jeez Big P - you must have had a bad morning or something, as the tone of your message has been heavily edited (the original appears in my response above, for the record) !

I've said what I have to say. You can be paranoid if you like and refuse to believe that criticism of the Northern Irish set-up can ever be anything other than anti-Unionist propaganda that will never be sated until the protestant people of Ulster are forever banished into the sea. If you're going to refuse to accept that I even have a valid point, without questioning my motives and agenda, then there really is no point us having such a discussion.

Everything else I hope I've tackled in my response above.
steve the edits were for minor changes like spelling and punctuation.

for me the flag thing & the national anthem is a major issue , you say why should the NI team have a flag that only represents one part of the community ? why then do we have to see the irish rugby team have the irish tricolour as it's flag & soldiers song as the anthem ? i personally dont mind this as i dont follow rugby but when it comes to football everybody seems to be going out of thier way to be offended by this, you dont hear constent protests from unionists about this do you ?

BTW . the edit was for my poor spelling. HA

[dcfcsteve]

steve the edits were for minor changes like spelling and punctuation.

Errrr - sorry Big P but that's ******. Your original post from earlier today is quoted 100% in the post that I put up at 1:20pm. Unluckily for you, whilst you were "correcting the spelling" of that post - i.e. converting it from a broadly sensible response into a "we are the people - we shalt never be defeated by you and your hidden Popish agenda" style rant - I was responding to that original sane post. Hence why it is captured intact in my response of 1:20pm. I don't think that adding nonesense like 'take our anthem, our flag, our stadium - we all know what's next...!', to quote but one change, can rightfully be described as mere minor changes to diction ! Or is revisionism now a form of grammatical correction...?


for me the flag thing & the national anthem is a major issue , you say why should the NI team have a flag that only represents one part of the community ? why then do we have to see the irish rugby team have the irish tricolour as it's flag & soldiers song as the anthem ? i personally dont mind this as i dont follow rugby but when it comes to football everybody seems to be going out of thier way to be offended by this, you dont hear constent protests from unionists about this do you ?

The Irish rugby team HAS selected a 'neutral' anthem that it plays at all its games - Ireland's Call. They also play Amhran na bhFiann when they play games in Dublin. But then, they also played GSTQ when they last played an International at Ravenhill. I would have no issue with a different flag being used as the 'official' team one - perhaps the shamrocks over rugby ball image from the crest. So where does that leave us then ? With one sports association that has made a half-attempt at 'neutralising' itself, and another that has made none. And with one of us who is willing to see changes to 'neutralise' sport on the island, and another of us who is seemingly unwilling....


BTW . the edit was for my poor spelling. HA

No it wasn't. HA ! :p

[big p from owc]

Errrr - sorry Big P but that's ******. Your original post from earlier today is quoted 100% in the post that I put up at 1:20pm. Unluckily for you, whilst you were "correcting the spelling" of that post - i.e. converting it from a broadly sensible response into a "we are the people - we shalt never be defeated by you and your hidden Popish agenda" style rant - I was responding to that original sane post. Hence why it is captured intact in my response of 1:20pm. I don't think that adding nonesense like 'take our anthem, our flag, our stadium - we all know what's next...!', to quote but one change, can rightfully be described as mere minor changes to diction ! Or is revisionism now a form of grammatical correction...?



The Irish rugby team HAS selected a 'neutral' anthem that it plays at all its games - Ireland's Call. They also play Amhran na bhFiann when they play games in Dublin. But then, they also played GSTQ when they last played an International at Ravenhill. I would have no issue with a different flag being used as the 'official' team one - perhaps the shamrocks over rugby ball image from the crest. So where does that leave us then ? With one sports association that has made a half-attempt at 'neutralising' itself, and another that has made none. And with one of us who is willing to see changes to 'neutralise' sport on the island, and another of us who is seemingly unwilling....



No it wasn't. HA ! :pdespite your petty attempts to paint me as a person with hardline beliefs ( which is something that i do not have ) , your own intolerance and failure to grasp opinions from " the other side " shows you not to be the diplomat that you think you are steve , i have read quite a few of your posts on this site over the past few weeks and on more than one occasion the mask has almost slipped.

YOU CAN FOOL SOME OF THE PEOPLE SOME OF THE TIME ......