Northern Ireland V Wales

[dcfcsteve]

despite your petty attempts to paint me as a person with hardline beliefs ( which is something that i do not have ) , your own intolerance and failure to grasp opinions from " the other side " shows you not to be the diplomat that you think you are steve , i have read quite a few of your posts on this site over the past few weeks and on more than one occasion the mask has almost slipped.

YOU CAN FOOL SOME OF THE PEOPLE SOME OF THE TIME ......

Not trying to paint you as someone with hardline beliefs (though you constantly try to suggest that I am of such views). I was only mirroring back to you what you yourself have clearly written above Big P. Your last main post on this topic was genuinely bordering on irrational with the whole "We know what's next" train of thought.

And you still haven't clarified why you felt the need to pretend you didn't make major changes to the tone and content of a post, and then claim they were only typo corrections ? Why did you feel the need to lie over this ?

And to bring us back the the direction of the debate - the IRFU have gone some way (though arguably not enough) towards 'neutralising' the symbolism of Irish International rugby, which I welcome. Why can't the IFA make similar steps (e.g. adopt a neutral anthem) ? And I would be happy to see the IRFU gopt further and adopt a neutral 'official' flag (for the record - I attend Ireland rugby games home and away regularly, so it is of direct concern to me), but you don't seem willing to countenace anything similar from the IFA. So that makes me the intolerant one... ??

[big p from owc]

steve you quite clearly have no time for prods FULL STOP . " thats the bottom line with you no matter how much you try to back track "

i have not come on here mixing or being offensive to anybody but because i took a different line to you and felt your demands on the IFA were excessive & bordering on total capitulation you have tried to label me some kind of bigot .

from the off set i have made it clear that iam a fervent supporter of the IFA'S FOOTBALL FOR ALL campaign and that further change was possable to make owc games more welcoming to ALL sections of our society, but when i voiced my fears about your list of demands you brand me as some type of "paislyesque taig hating nutter" . i feel that this obvious flaw in your character is very revealing .

thats all i will say on the matter because iam not here to get involved in a war of words with people who simply hate everything norn iron .

BOOM BOOM GREEN & WHITE ARMY !

[dcfcsteve]

steve you quite clearly have no time for prods FULL STOP . " thats the bottom line with you no matter how much you try to back track "

i have not come on here mixing or being offensive to anybody but because i took a different line to you and felt your demands on the IFA were excessive & bordering on total capitulation you have tried to label me some kind of bigot .

from the off set i have made it clear that iam a fervent supporter of the IFA'S FOOTBALL FOR ALL campaign and that further change was possable to make owc games more welcoming to ALL sections of our society, but when i voiced my fears about your list of demands you brand me as some type of "paislyesque taig hating nutter" . i feel that this obvious flaw in your character is very revealing .

thats all i will say on the matter because iam not here to get involved in a war of words with people who simply hate everything norn iron .

BOOM BOOM GREEN & WHITE ARMY !

Well Big P - it's unfortunate that you appear unable or unwilling to differentiate between what I (and I believe most other observers on here) would perceieve to be reasonable questions and requests (albeit coming from the angle of one community) and a philosophy of anti-protestantism. You really couldn't be further wrong - if only because I have close family members in Northern Ireland and elsewhere who are Protestant (including areas considered Loyalist, such as Ballysillan for example). Believe what you will, but I ain't anti-protestant. As I mentioned before - it is possible to criticise the one-sided symbolism of the Northern Irish international football set-up without being anti-protestant.

Also - I'd rather you didn't use quotation marks for things that I didn't say, as you've done a number of times above. Quotation/speech marks are used to denote quotes - exact replications of something somebody has said or written. I know you're summarising your perception of my views - which is your right - but please don't use quotation marks do this, particularly when they are grossly misrepresentative. I did it once in an earlier post in response to you - which was an error and mistake on my part, for which I apologise.

And not to get into the old 'who said what to who and when' - if you read back through this thread you'll find that the only accusations of bigotry between us have been from yourself - starting with your post of 12:46pm yesterday when you accused me of having "....strong anti-Unionist feelings". I have neitehr called, or alluded, that you are a bigot at any point in this debate. I'm also confident that anyone else willing to be objective on this site who reads this thread will conclude that my posts have been rational, grounded, unbigoted, fair and non-inflammatory - even if they don't ailgn themselves with the views I'm expressing.

If you consider the creation of a neutral identity for the national team of a deeply divided province to be not only a negative step, but indeed one of "total capitulation", then we are unfortunately too far apart in our views to do more than go round and round in circles needlessly.

Now - if you'll excuse me I'll go back to my dark lair where you'll be delighted to hear I will continue working Austin Powers-stylee with my numerous minnions on our grand plan for the total destruction of Northern Ireland, the protestant faith, the English monarchy, Tayto Castle, the Giant's Causeway and the Aul Lamma's Fair. Woo-ha-ha-HAAAAAA ! :p ;)

[dcfcsteve]

24hrs later Big P, and I am still absolutely raging at your completely unfounded allegation that I "clearly have no time for Prods full stop".

For some reason, I am unable to edit my last message on this thread (I sense the hand of the moderators), so I'm forced to post a new message to add the following.

Below is a list of views I have expressed on foot.ie over the last few months. They are there on the record to be checked. I would like you to consider whether these can in any way be attributed to someone who is "clearly" anti-protestant. If you're keen enough to cast mud in my direction, hopefully you'll be man enough to admit if the following counters this unfounded view you have attributed to me.

- I stated that I would like to see the 12th of July become a national holiday in the Republic, with marches and events in Dublin and elsewhere to celebrate such a huge event in the history of Ireland and, indeed, Europe. Posted in an off-topic thread in July (see here : http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=27190&page=2&highlight=12th+july ).
- I said that Protestants in the Republic should be entitled to British passports/citizenship if they so wish, to reflect their dual-heritage.
- I said that I would like to see the IRFU use a 'neutral' flag (e.g. shamrocks over rugby ball), instead of the Irish tricolour.
- I posted an article regarding the linguistic rights of the overwhelmingly protestant Gaidhlig speaking population of Scotland.

If the above are the trademarks of someone who "clearly has no time for prods" then Ian Paisley could at-best only be described as mildly sympathic to the Unionist cause....

[gspain]

Gary you're normally a bit of an oracle on these things so I verily shudder at the prospect of taking you on but I suspect yourself and rovers are wrong.

My understanding is English, Scots and Welsh (and actually ROI) born can only play for the respective association unless they qualify for another under the granny rule, NI born can play for NI or ROI (notwithstanding the Citizenship Act which will have some as yet indeterminable effect on "new" Irish and N. Irish), UK passport holders (not born in UK but naturalised) and Channel Isanders/Manx can have their pick of the four associations. Hence Guernseys finest (only:eek: :D ) stopper Trevor Woods ended up playing for NI.

Not wrong here.

FIFA rules are that you must be entitled to a passport for the country you play for. The UK is recognized as one country by UN etc but as 4 by FIFA because there was adeal done back in the 40's when FIFA was bankrupt and the 4 home nations bailed them out.

To play for any of the 4 home nations therefore you need a British passport. Now there is an understanding that you must "qualify" with a grandparent etc but this is not necessary according to FIFA.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Not wrong here.

FIFA rules are that you must be entitled to a passport for the country you play for. The UK is recognized as one country by UN etc but as 4 by FIFA because there was adeal done back in the 40's when FIFA was bankrupt and the 4 home nations bailed them out.

To play for any of the 4 home nations therefore you need a British passport. Now there is an understanding that you must "qualify" with a grandparent etc but this is not necessary according to FIFA.

Ah I see ...that sounds fairly probable ...and for that matter is probably the inspiration for any such IFA move to initiate such a deal with the FAI -which of course would be a lot more politically sensitive on this island as it would have the effect of denying NI born folk of a particular inclination the opportunity to play for us.
If appied to the letter such a deal (which I think would be morally wrong -and illegal in any event I'd say) would have the effect of taking away from no less a figure than Shay Given -born in Derrys Altnagelvin (but reared in Donegal) the opportunity to play for Ireland.

[gspain]

Ah I see ...that sounds fairly probable ...and for that matter is probably the inspiration for any such IFA move to initiate such a deal with the FAI -which of course would be a lot more politically sensitive on this island as it would have the effect of denying NI born folk of a particular inclination the opportunity to play for us.
If appied to the letter such a deal (which I think would be morally wrong -and illegal in any event I'd say) would have the effect of taking away from no less a figure than Shay Given -born in Derrys Altnagelvin (but reared in Donegal) the opportunity to play for Ireland.

Shay was born at home in Donegal apparently although the Derry story does the rounds.

Roy Wegerle played for U.S.A. because he got a passport by marrying a U.S. citizen.

The rule is simple - once you get a passport for a country and are not tied to another country then you can play for them

There did appear to be an unwritten understanding between the F.A.I. and IFA that we would not take players born in NI without an RoI obvious connection but this is now gone. Alan Kernaghan was different as they turned him down but the likes of Henry McStay is causing bad blood. So far none of these players have got a senior cap but that is only a matter of time. Anybody born in NI (by and large small changes in referenda) is entitled to an Irish passport and thus to represent the RoI in football. It doesn't work in reverse and most people here are not entitled to a British passport and therefore cannot play for any of the 4 home nations.

BTW Tony Cascarino was always entitled to play for Ireland by FIFA rules. The government may have mistakenly given him an Irish passport but that did not make him ineligible. If the Dept of Foreign Affairs went to the Copacabana beach and handed out Irish passports to any talented footballers they could all play for us.

[Sheridan]

Alan Kernaghan was different as they turned him down The did indeed, but since Kernaghan was born in England (which was why the IFA turned him down, in fact) the terms of the gentlemen's agreement didn't apply.

If the Dept of Foreign Affairs went to the Copacabana beach and handed out Irish passports to any talented footballers they could all play for us. The eligibility rule has since been amended to prevent this type of scenario from arising, after the Qatari FA offered uncapped Brazilians generous financial packages to switch allegiance. A residency period of two years (I think) must now also be served.

[dcfcsteve]

The eligibility rule has since been amended to prevent this type of scenario from arising, after the Qatari FA offered uncapped Brazilians generous financial packages to switch allegiance. A residency period of two years (I think) must now also be served.

You sure that's right Sheridan ? It would reduce the likelihood of passport abuse, but would also effectively destroy 95% of the benefit/purpose of the parentage rule if that was the case. Look at the Ireland team of the 80's/90's - Houghton, Aldridge, McCarthy, Lawrenson, Hughton etc. None of them lived in Ireland. Other nations in the world will currently be at the same stage in developing their football game as we were back then, and will be looking to use the parentage rule to help them.

When was the Qatari ruling ? I don't follow other international teams well enough to know of any very-recent new caps given out through the parentage rule. Certainly the last senior 'parentage' cap I can think of in the Republic's squad (Clinton ?) hasn't lived in Ireland (though he has been in the Ireland squad since 2001).

[Sheridan]

You sure that's right Sheridan ? It would reduce the likelihood of passport abuse, but would also effectively destroy 95% of the benefit/purpose of the parentage rule if that was the case. Look at the Ireland team of the 80's/90's - Houghton, Aldridge, McCarthy, Lawrenson, Hughton etc. None of them lived in Ireland. Other nations in the world will currently be at the same stage in developing their football game as we were back then, and will be looking to use the parentage rule to help them
I should have been clearer, this stipulation applies only where players do not satisfy the ancestry criteria (grandparent or more recent.) Needless to say, none of the putative Brazilian defectors was of Qatari extraction.

[dcfcsteve]

I should have been clearer, this stipulation applies only where players do not satisfy the ancestry criteria (grandparent or more recent.) Needless to say, none of the putative Brazilian defectors was of Qatari extraction.

Got ya.

I guess this is how Deco got his Portuguese cap (although he may have been living in Portugal long enough to qualigy for a passport anyway....).

[Lionel Ritchie]

I should have been clearer, this stipulation applies only where players do not satisfy the ancestry criteria (grandparent or more recent.) Needless to say, none of the putative Brazilian defectors was of Qatari extraction.

Bit of a pity really -I can just see John Motsons and the English tabs armoury of jingoisms enhanced with such witicisms as "ENGLANDS WORLD ROCKED BY ELECTRIC QATAR" :D

[Castle Barracks]

Phew,what confusion!Am I glad that,if I were a footballer,I would only have dual alleigance to Ireland & Wales!

[holidaysong]

Bit of a pity really -I can just see John Motsons and the English tabs armoury of jingoisms enhanced with such witicisms as "ENGLANDS WORLD ROCKED BY ELECTRIC QATAR" :D

I'll be laughing about that for the rest of the day.. :D

[dcfcsteve]

Bit of a pity really -I can just see John Motsons and the English tabs armoury of jingoisms enhanced with such witicisms as "ENGLANDS WORLD ROCKED BY ELECTRIC QATAR" :D

:D

Is it true their national flag-carrying aviation provider is called 'Air Qatar'....? :p

[big p from owc]

24hrs later Big P, and I am still absolutely raging at your completely unfounded allegation that I "clearly have no time for Prods full stop".

For some reason, I am unable to edit my last message on this thread (I sense the hand of the moderators), so I'm forced to post a new message to add the following.

Below is a list of views I have expressed on foot.ie over the last few months. They are there on the record to be checked. I would like you to consider whether these can in any way be attributed to someone who is "clearly" anti-protestant. If you're keen enough to cast mud in my direction, hopefully you'll be man enough to admit if the following counters this unfounded view you have attributed to me.

- I stated that I would like to see the 12th of July become a national holiday in the Republic, with marches and events in Dublin and elsewhere to celebrate such a huge event in the history of Ireland and, indeed, Europe. Posted in an off-topic thread in July (see here : http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=27190&page=2&highlight=12th+july ).
- I said that Protestants in the Republic should be entitled to British passports/citizenship if they so wish, to reflect their dual-heritage.
- I said that I would like to see the IRFU use a 'neutral' flag (e.g. shamrocks over rugby ball), instead of the Irish tricolour.
- I posted an article regarding the linguistic rights of the overwhelmingly protestant Gaidhlig speaking population of Scotland.

If the above are the trademarks of someone who "clearly has no time for prods" then Ian Paisley could at-best only be described as mildly sympathic to the Unionist cause....
steve your savage & unprovoked verbal assaults on the northern ireland fans and the running of our game despite (by your own admission) not visiting windsor park in over a quarter of a century really leaves me raging also .

it's sooo easy to sit and scoff from afar and make unrealistic demands and pretend that if certain changes were made that you and/or other nationalists would perhaps start supporting owc again BUT we all know this is highly unlikely, IMO if a person is minded to constantly go out of thier way to be offended then no amount of wooing will ever be enough to change thier mind .

i will apologise (as i am not here to offend anybody) & take back the NO TIME FOR PRODS comment but i will replace it with a NO TIME FOR NORTHERN IRELAND (UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES) comment !!!

this i believe to be accurate of yourself and many many other nationalists who always seek to critisize us but under no circumstances would they ever support us.

take a look at this mate , not everybody thinks we are such a scarey or unwelcoming bunch.

http://ourweecountry.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=9823

one quick question steve , when we move to our new stadium at the maze will you be supporting us then ? surely catholics will not be scared to travel there ? after all the main objection is always that WP is located in the village area of belfast , so what then will be the objections put forward for not supporting your country ?

the flag , the anthem , singing songs .


THE FLAG.

the flag is the FIFA recognised flag of northern ireland as the welsh , the scots & the english have thier own ondividual flags of thier respective countries.

THE ANTHEM.

GSTQ is the national anthem of the united kingdom of great britain & northern ireland , FACT . so how about following the lead of irish rugby and also adopt another anthem to be played alongside GSTQ ? an anthem for all and simply not for "one side of the community" . WOULD THIS BE ACCEPTABLE IN THE INTERESTS OF ACCOMODATING EACH OTHER ? or would the mere presense of a song paying tribute to the british queen be so offensive that any catholic/nationalist listening to it in the stadium might immediatly turn to dust ? :rolleyes:

SONGS.

sectarian songs have all but gone from OWC games , there are however still a few superprods who try to keep it going BUT they are the last of a dying breed & as quickly as these songs start they are quickly put down by the real fans , the singing of no surrender during the national anthem is disgusting IMO but because there is a moments silence between the verses, sitting at home it probably sounds like everybody is singing it , I CAN ASSURE YOU THIS IS NOT THE CASE . i said in previous posts that the job of erradicating this cannot be done overnight but the fight to stop it will go on .

to sum up things i think that yes more can be done (and is being done) to make our games more inclusive for all but when all we get is sniping & critisisim for trying to make changes then it makes the task all the more harder THEN on top of that you have these people who we know will never be happy NO MATTER WHAT IS DONE TO IMPROVE THINGS .

the northern ireland football team is not to blame for the political troubles in this country yet politics are constantly brought into any debate about the team , people IMO who do this need to take a good long hard look at themselves.