Republic of Ireland v Armenia - Tuesday, 14th October 2025 - 2026 World Cup Qualifier

[CraftyToePoke]

A thread about things hanging by a thread, campaign, manager, our sanity. Or has even that ship has sailed ? It probably has with all three of the above on it.

Which Ireland will we get on Tuesday ?
Say the last nights Ireland show up & give Armenia a decent dicking and carry on those levels of performance with say two, three or even four points in the November window, is there a case for HH staying ?

Armenia couldn't do the double over us, could they ?

Were we cursed by being in our adolescence when Ireland were briefly decent and thus forever bound to chasing those highs ?

Does HH want the fcuk away from us & this group of players ASAP either way ?
Could well do.

So many questions. Who'd have thought we'd ever look to fcuking Armenia for the answers but here are, here we go.

Predictions lads, please.

[elatedscum]

I think it’ll be a 3-1 win. Overdue a good result. I’d be worried that the game against Portugal was both physically draining to the extreme and mentally absolutely heartbreaking.

Team selection will be key in terms of keeping a degree of consistency between games but also bringing in fresh legs where needed and picking players who have the ability on the ball to be more expressive than we were against Portugal. In the last window, I think we started 9 of the 10 starters available to play game 2 and I feel that contributed to how lethargic and poor we were in Yerevan.

But I think we also paid for last window’s squad selection. There were plenty on here bemused by the decision to drop Coleman, Ebosele, Molumby from the squad and it meant that when it came to changes we were forced to go to Killian Phillips and Liam Scales to chase the game. The unused subs were the uncapped Josh Honahan, Jonny Kenny and Bosun Lawal, alongside Jimmy Dunne and Matt Doherty along with two keepers, so we just didn’t have a bench that was capable of chasing the game.

When it comes to qualification for a World Cup, we really need to get probably 95% of decisions right as a management team and when that doesn’t happen we drop points. We could easily have won the home game with Hungary after the sending off happened and we threw away a point against Portugal and three against Armenia.

We did a lot right against Portugal but I’d still question the Ferguson selection and the late defensive substitution.

[pineapple stu]

Probably no harm the site was down the last two days! That was another shocking performance, and if it weren't for red cards, we could very well be on 0 points in this group.

I've pointed out before that HH has gotten results against Bulgaria and Finland when it mattered, and the loss in Armenia remains the only real blotch on his copybook. But it feels we're going backwards rather than forwards the last few months, starting with that June friendly in Luxembourg.

[backstothewall]

His contract won't be renewed and that'll be that. It's been little better than things were under Kenny. Simply not good enough.

I know some will point to the quality available to him, but you only had to watch the north against Germany the previous evening for proof that it's possible to have much better than this.

[Kingdom]

It's been little better than things were under Kenny.
It has not at all been better than things under Kenny. Not at all.


Simply not good enough.
Correct.


but you only had to watch the north against Germany the previous evening for proof that it's possible to have much better than this.
Correct.
We don't have an Ethan Galbraith...or maybe we do, if we had the courage to pick players who could do that for us.

[joey B]

I don’t think comparing things under either manager is any use,it’s been s***e under both simple as that…..
When I seen Hungary score I thought ah that’s a bad goal but in reflection and watching us try and score against Armenia at home it doesn’t really matter does it…..

[pineapple stu]

We don't have an Ethan Galbraith...or maybe we do, if we had the courage to pick players who could do that for us.
What players out there are we not having the courage to play?

[Fixer82]

Was at the game last night. Felt the atmosphere was ok and not as bad as pundits were saying.
Their red card was madness. The Armenian captain seemed to be very wound up by the crowd booing him when he was injured and wouldn’t get off the pitch. So the crowd may have played their part in him losing the plot.

Thought Ebosele gave them lots of problems and couldn’t understand him being subbed off. Coleman was great.

Our biggest issue seems to be not breaking the lines. If we think of how Roy Keane would zip 10 yard passes through midfield into forwards’ feet, we really miss that kind of play.

So I think our biggest problem is midfield. Molumby did well but seems to need three extra touches before passing the ball on. Azaz had some nice moments.

Overall, I feel this team is afraid of making mistakes. They’re in a negative mindset rather than a positive one. Very few players passed and sprinted to get the return pass.
There were occasions when Manning brought the ball up the wing and there was nobody up ahead to pass to

[backstothewall]

It has not at all been better than things under Kenny. Not at all.


Correct.


Correct.
We don't have an Ethan Galbraith...or maybe we do, if we had the courage to pick players who could do that for us.

I don't agree that it's as bad as Kenny, but it's bad enough that it's not worth the argument.

It's an interesting point about Galbraith though. He got his first cap before he made his senior debut at club level, which came as a 2 minute cameo off the bench for Man Utd in a Europa League game a couple of months later. Would he have had that opportunity if he hadn't first had the attention of that cap? It's not impossible, but it seems unlikely. Was his being a full international a factor in Doncaster or Salford taking him on loan, or something that made him a more appealing signing for Orient? I imagine it was. To be able to say a new signing is a full international is a good start for a club in League 1 or 2, even if it is only for NI.

Then i look at our perennial problem at left back. We have a guy like Alex Murphy learning his trade at Newcastle. He's played a bit in League 1 last season. He's been named on the bench in Premier League and Champions League games. Would it have killed us to start Ryan Manning and then give him 20 minutes from the bench in that friendly vs Luxembourg? Had we done that, Eddie Howe would certainly have been aware of it, and maybe that would have been enough to get the kid a chance from the bench for Newcastle. Or maybe a bit more than the 1 minute he got in their League Cup game against Bradford earlier this season.

If not him apply the same basic argument to Corrie Ndaba, Sean Roughan, Tayo Adaramola, García MacNulty or someone of your own choosing. Getting an international cap in your early 20s can be a sliding doors moment that leads to a totally different career path

But we played Robbie Brady and gave Manning a run off the bench.

One of the positives of this round of games is that Manning looks like he has adapted to international football, That's a good thing, but he's turning 30 next summer. The fact is that he's only just finding his feet at the point where we should already be succession planning.

[ifk101]

Overall, I feel this team is afraid of making mistakes.

I think that’s the crux of it. As you say, there’s no zip in the passes and there are too many lateral, flat passes to static players. Nobody is stepping into passes which is needed for momentum, speed and urgency. And we are always too quick to turn backwards when pressed. It’s cowardly.

[pineapple stu]

We have a guy like Alex Murphy learning his trade at Newcastle. He's played a bit in League 1 last season. He's been named on the bench in Premier League and Champions League games. Would it have killed us to start Ryan Manning and then give him 20 minutes from the bench in that friendly vs Luxembourg? Had we done that, Eddie Howe would certainly have been aware of it, and maybe that would have been enough to get the kid a chance from the bench for Newcastle. Or maybe a bit more than the 1 minute he got in their League Cup game against Bradford earlier this season.

If not him apply the same basic argument to Corrie Ndaba, Sean Roughan, Tayo Adaramola, García MacNulty or someone of your own choosing. Getting an international cap in your early 20s can be a sliding doors moment that leads to a totally different career path
Eddie Howe is not going to be influenced by a token 20 minutes in a meaningless June friendly against Luxembourg.

Stephen Kenny gave debuts early in their careers to Idah, Molumby, Knight, Kelleher, Bazunu, Parrott, O'Shea, Smallbone, Armstrong, Moran, Omobamidele and others. Some have gone on to do quite well (Kelleher, Parrott), others are players we're now crying out to be removed from the senior squad (Idah, Smallbone), others may never get more than a token cap (Armstrong, Moran). I don't think it was wrong of Kenny to cap those guys - we had no choice - but equally I'd say their international careers have had very very little impact on their club careers.

We need to stop pretending that a player not in the squad is de facto better than the players who are in the squad, despite the natural attraction of the unknown. Adaramola, Ndaba and Roughan have done the square root of **** all to earn a cap. MacNulty is a possible exception, depending on whether he can play left-back (great) or centre-back (meh).

And equally, Armenia had a Nigerian playing for them in both games by virtue of the fact he's played in the Armenian league for the last five years and is now naturalised. That's a league lower-ranked than the LoI. When a side of Championship players struggles to break down a side whose defensive lynchpin is at a lower level than the LoI, then I don't think picking weaker players will help. There's a bigger factor at play, be it psychological, tactics, or plain old giving a ****.

[Nesta99]

The FAI could sort their finances by allowing cameras all access to the senior mens. Its a total conundrum and would be compelling watching with the right amount of cringe Im sure. Ebosele's post match interview was so scripted media training its was almost as difficult as a Stephen Kenny post match interviews to watch. I agree that it doesnt make a whole lot of sense in playing players that are not performing at clubs better than those selected but does it make sense to select the same players all the time and get the same outcomes, underwhelming, underperforming, scared, disinterested or whatever. There is maybe a need to build a team (again) with players that might compliment each other or the specific systems that are being played that might justify even less lauded players. Maybe even quicker integration of underage internationals in to the senior setup. Trawl the granny rule if we have to and cap players young and even cyncially. It may not be a platform for the club fortunes and it shouldnt be in the reasoning. Different kinds of opposition but you see Cape Verde qualifying with Lopez being called up at 28, will be playing this WC at 34 and plying his trade in LoI, getting results against AFCON nations we'd not be too confident of doing so against. Bring in players we havent already broken....

[passinginterest]

If we're talking weaknesses in the squad and specialists not being called up then Joel Bagan at left back is probably one that's a bit of a surprise to me. I though he was always solid for the under 21s and he seems to be playing regularly for Cardiff still. Ok it's league one, but it's a position where we lack depth and he played with a lot of the current squad through the 21s. He always looked fairly tidy, mobile and a "good pro". Given the lack of depth in that position it's surprising he hasn't popped up in a senior squad. It's another one that's not really game changing though in fairness. If there's any promising central midfielders out there playing at just about any level then that's where we might think about throwing the straight into the senior squad. It's the most glaring gap (although only playing two in the middle does no favours to the current crop either). There's probably still a case for throwing Lawal in there, it's just a pity that's not where is club is playing him and he was injured this window either way.

[backstothewall]

Eddie Howe is not going to be influenced by a token 20 minutes in a meaningless June friendly against Luxembourg.

Stephen Kenny gave debuts early in their careers to Idah, Molumby, Knight, Kelleher, Bazunu, Parrott, O'Shea, Smallbone, Armstrong, Moran, Omobamidele and others. Some have gone on to do quite well (Kelleher, Parrott), others are players we're now crying out to be removed from the senior squad (Idah, Smallbone), others may never get more than a token cap (Armstrong, Moran). I don't think it was wrong of Kenny to cap those guys - we had no choice - but equally I'd say their international careers have had very very little impact on their club careers.

We need to stop pretending that a player not in the squad is de facto better than the players who are in the squad, despite the natural attraction of the unknown. Adaramola, Ndaba and Roughan have done the square root of **** all to earn a cap. MacNulty is a possible exception, depending on whether he can play left-back (great) or centre-back (meh).

And equally, Armenia had a Nigerian playing for them in both games by virtue of the fact he's played in the Armenian league for the last five years and is now naturalised. That's a league lower-ranked than the LoI. When a side of Championship players struggles to break down a side whose defensive lynchpin is at a lower level than the LoI, then I don't think picking weaker players will help. There's a bigger factor at play, be it psychological, tactics, or plain old giving a ****.

What you are describing is the approach that has got us nowhere for decades.

Kenny did indeed give caps to a stack of young players. Some of them didn't make it, but quite a few did. There's nobody saying there is any guarantee about anything, but you have named about a quarter of our current squad.

The most difficult thing for a young footballer to achieve is getting themselves noticed. And here we are with a great big shop window which we refuse to let our young players take advantage of.

And once a young player gets themselves on the radar of a manager somewhere, the margins involved in the final decision to sign one player or another or even who comes in on loan are incredibly fine. Having a couple of international caps could absolutely tip the scales on way or the other.

We haven't had a teenager burst onto the scene in the way the likes of Roy Keane or Steve Staunton did in decades. The days of Premier League managers throwing in 18 and 19 year olds are more or less over. Every Premier League manager has double cover in every position. The exception is Kelleher, but Klopp only took a chance on him thanks to an injury to Alison, and Adrian committing career suicide in a champions league game against Athletico Madrid. The days of Cloughie throwing in a young lad from Cork at Anfield because he did well for the u21s are well and truly over.

We have the chance to give them that opportunity. The north do it, and are squeezing much more out of the resources available to them. Conor Bradley is another one who got his first cap before making his senior debut at club level. Undoubtedly some of the kids they have given caps to have sunk without trace. They'll maybe be back playing Irish League and telling people in the back of their taxi about getting 2 caps.

The north understand that kissing a lot of frogs is the best way to find a prince.

[pineapple stu]

What you are describing is the approach that has got us nowhere for decades.
I think what you're describing though is a new approach that will also get us nowhere. We just haven't seen it play out yet, so it's easy one to turn to in time of desperation. though you allude to the similarity of what we have been doing for the last few years by saying Kenny's approach has given us a quarter of our current squad - but it's a pretty crap squad. So it hasn't worked.

I've been saying here for years that the real problem has been a complete lack of response to the Premier League going global. We just got left further and further behind, and every year since 2002, our squad has been getting weaker.

No-one has done anything about that - until maybe last week, when €3m for domestic academies was announced in the budget, to give three full-time coaches at each LoI academy. It's a small step, but potentially vital.

Look at how other countries - Denmark, Norway, Croatia, Slovakia - churn out players domestically who then go abroad for big fees which can be reinvested in the academies. That's exactly what you have to do in the modern era where realistically none of their clubs has a chance of winning anything (personally I'd bring back the three-foreigners rule to make club football more competitive and interesting, but that's a different topic!), and it's what we've completely failed to do, because we think what worked up to the 90s (ie relying on the English league to develop our players from age 16) still applies now, when it clearly doesn't.

We are crap and we're going to be crap (if not worse) for a while yet - and picking random League One players in the hope that it may somehow impact their club careers is plucking at straws unfortunately.

[SkStu]

What players out there are we not having the courage to play?

id change that quote to "if we had the courage to pick players would have the courage to do that for us".

We are complete wimps throughout the squad and management. There is nobody that has the ability to grab the game by the scruff of the next and force the pace. Maybe Coleman (and that says a lot in and of itself).

On the playing side, I cannot for the life of me understand what is going on there. There is no personality to the team. We just seem to pass for the sake of passing. I can count on one hand the number of brave passes that were played last night from defense to midfield - and when we did, we turned into space and had a decent opportunity to attack. Off the ball, we just meander around the place and dont seem to have a specific defensive approach (unless we go out with the mandate to defend like in Portugal).

On the coaching side, we seem to have a management by committee approach where the guy in charge has (willingly or unwillingly / consciously or unconsciously) divested his authority to a combination of O'Shea and McCarthy who will protect their future interests first and foremost. We need a single throat to choke. The team needs a definitive authority.

This 3 at the back approach is mindboggling and a carryover from Kenny and then O'Shea. It offers us nothing and seems to just slow us down in transition. Also, (i might be wrong here), I dont think that is HH's default formation. He spoke of 442. I watched Canada play Colombia last night. It was 0-0 but they played 442 and created a host of chances and were also able to press from the front, tuck their wingers in and defend solidly.

Absolute pox of a game last night. So many bad decisions all over the place - selection, in game etc - I cant even begin. I have zero confidence left in this team.

[backstothewall]

I think what you're describing though is a new approach that will also get us nowhere. We just haven't seen it play out yet, so it's easy one to turn to in time of desperation. though you allude to the similarity of what we have been doing for the last few years by saying Kenny's approach has given us a quarter of our current squad - but it's a pretty crap squad. So it hasn't worked.

I've been saying here for years that the real problem has been a complete lack of response to the Premier League going global. We just got left further and further behind, and every year since 2002, our squad has been getting weaker.

No-one has done anything about that - until maybe last week, when €3m for domestic academies was announced in the budget, to give three full-time coaches at each LoI academy. It's a small step, but potentially vital.

Look at how other countries - Denmark, Norway, Croatia, Slovakia - churn out players domestically who then go abroad for big fees which can be reinvested in the academies. That's exactly what you have to do in the modern era where realistically none of their clubs has a chance of winning anything (personally I'd bring back the three-foreigners rule to make club football more competitive and interesting, but that's a different topic!), and it's what we've completely failed to do, because we think what worked up to the 90s (ie relying on the English league to develop our players from age 16) still applies now, when it clearly doesn't.

We are crap and we're going to be crap (if not worse) for a while yet - and picking random League One players in the hope that it may somehow impact their club careers is plucking at straws unfortunately.

Where I agree with you is your point about a lack of response to the Premier League going global. Every Premier League side (and quite a few in the Championship) have 2 senior pros for every position. Whereas in years gone by a couple of injuries would mean an opportunity for a young player to come in, that's no longer really the case.

We were talking about Alex Murphy earlier. He's behind Lewis Hall and Dan Burn at left back, but even in the event both of those guys were unavailable it's likely Livramento or Trippier would fill in at LB ahead of him. Steve Staunton was probably at a similar spot in his career at Liverpool in the late 80s, but with squad depth being what it was back then a young fullback on the fringes of the first team squad was for more likely to get his opportunity. And sure enough Alan Hansen got an injury, Gary Ablett moved over to CB, and thanks to one player picking up an injury Stan got his chance in what might have been the best team in the world at that time. Impossible to imagine that happening today, but the lad from Louth held his own and spun that one opportunity into a stellar career.

Murphy has very little chance of breaking into the Newcastle team in the way that Steve Staunton did at Liverpool in the late 80s. But we have about as much of an idea about how he might do at international level as Kenny Dalglish did with Stan in 1988. So if he can't get an opportunity at Newcastle, why not give him his chance ourselves in a friendly against Luxembourg?

The potential downside is that he doesn't do well, or makes a mistake, but it was only a friendly. In the event we drew the bloody game anyway, but 6 months on does anybody really give a damn one way or the other? Losing in Armenia is the stick being used to beat HH. The embarrassment of drawing that friendly faded extremely quickly. And what did we find out about Robbie Brady we didn't already know?

The potential upside is that he might do really well. The clean sheet we kept that night was pretty worthless, but had we had we managed the same with him in the side he would have been part of a defence that kept a clean sheet on his debut. One would imagine he would at least put an enthusiastic shift in on his debut. Maybe he puts in a couple of decent crosses in and really looks the part. Maybe someone heads one of them in and he gets an assist? Hell, maybe he scores a goal? As a minimum he would at least be congratulated by the manager on making his debut on his return to Newcastle.

Maybe he gets a loan in the Championship because some manager is looking a left back and there's this international who can't get in at Newcastle and makes a whole career off of it, or maybe he's back driving his taxi around Galway in 5 years time telling people about the cap he got against Luxembourg. The point is it's a shot to nothing. The potential downside is very low, but the potential upside is virtually limitless.

Money for league of Ireland academies is very welcome. You are quite right to point that out that youth development is way behind in Ireland, and I agree with the point you are making completely. I expect the cream of the crop with be skimmed off by the likes of Man City and Liverpool by the time they are 16, but they will provide opportunities for those players to be developed at home and increase the chances of today's 10 year olds ending up the Man City academy in 6 years.

That is exactly what the countries you mentioned (Denmark, Norway, Croatia, Slovakia) do. The current Slovakia squad, like the Denmark squad has no domestic players. Norway & Croatia have 3 & 2 respectively, though that includes reserve goalies in both cases. The very best prospects at Rosenberg and Hajduk Split are abroad before they turn 18. As an example of what i'm talking about, Norway gave a debut this week to an 18 year old called Sverre Nypan. He's in the academy at Man City, and has played 7 times in the league on loan at Middlesborough. He got 14 minutes at the end of a friendly against New Zealand. He's now a full international at 18 years old.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c803rxlgx3xo?xtor=AL-72

We're years behind on that score. It can't be easily recovered.

For now the only possible response to the Premier League going global is to drop down a division or 2, and/or give the kids who can't get an opportunity in the Premier League a chance for us ahead of older players who are established as journeymen in the Championship.

Going back to Kenny, his approach of aggressively throwing in young players lasted for about 18 months. By then he was fighting to save his job, the generation of players he had with the u21s had either come through or fallen away, and the pace of experimentation slowed. I'd say that 18 month spell is the one thing he did for Irish football which has been fully vindicated. The prevalence of those same players in our current squad is the evidence of that.

The problem isn't that he did it, it's that Mick McCarthy didn't and HH hasn't.

We know what we've been doing isn't working and there's no way to know if this might be different without trying it. It will mean a lot more people getting 3 or 4 caps, fewer people getting 40 or 60.

Many would sink. Some would swim. One of them might walk on water.

[rebelmusic]

I might be a bit mad for saying this...but if we had won in Yerevan I think we'd all be singing a different tune...it was always going to be a stretch that we'd qualify for a playoff but all in all there's been a marked improvement over the Kenny era. The task is mountainous at this point and really needs a favour from Armenia but this is the first campaign since McCarthy where it's in our hands going into the last window.

I know some of the decisions were suspect. I know the players are still playing with less confidence than they should but we were 5 mins away from this being the best international window in years, results wise.

I don't know. Maybe it's bottom of the barrel stuff but I'm just happy we'll quite possibly get to enjoy a full qualifying campaign without any lame duck games. Thankfully Armenia are also theoretically still in the mix as well so they have it all to play for against Hungary.

[Eirambler]

This 3 at the back approach is mindboggling and a carryover from Kenny and then O'Shea. It offers us nothing and seems to just slow us down in transition. Also, (i might be wrong here), I dont think that is HH's default formation. He spoke of 442. I watched Canada play Colombia last night. It was 0-0 but they played 442 and created a host of chances and were also able to press from the front, tuck their wingers in and defend solidly.



The three at the back/two centre mids fixation seems to be a Paddy McCarthy thing. It was a consistent feature of the O'Shea/McCarthy interim period too. I can't help feeling that he's quietly doing an awful lot of damage behind the scenes and there's little prospect of things getting better until he's gone. He's trying to play a Premier League type of setup with a group of midfielders that are nowhere near good enough to play like that, and when it doesn't work he seems to have nothing else to fall back on in terms of other ideas at all.

That said, he's a number two/number three in charge, so you have to hold the number one to account if he's allowing someone in his backroom team to continue to dictate despite consistently poor results.

We'll be put out of our misery quickly next month, which is just as well at this point. HH will go, but unless there's a full clear out alongside him nothing will change.

[pineapple stu]

We were talking about Alex Murphy earlier. He's behind Lewis Hall and Dan Burn at left back, but even in the event both of those guys were unavailable it's likely Livramento or Trippier would fill in at LB ahead of him. Steve Staunton was probably at a similar spot in his career at Liverpool in the late 80s
I think there's a couple of points here. First off, there's squad requirements now which mean plenty of token young and/or British players at squads. They often go nowhere. Not comparable to Stan at Liverpool I think.

I don't mind giving Murphy a cap - but let's not pretend it'll make Eddie Howe sit up and take notice. There's so much scouting now that if he's good enough, he'll get scouted at a PL2 game (or wherever it is he's playing) much quicker than in an Ireland game.


That is exactly what the countries you mentioned (Denmark, Norway, Croatia, Slovakia) do. The current Slovakia squad, like the Denmark squad has no domestic players. Norway & Croatia have 3 & 2 respectively, though that includes reserve goalies in both cases. The very best prospects at Rosenberg and Hajduk Split are abroad before they turn 18. As an example of what i'm talking about, Norway gave a debut this week to an 18 year old called Sverre Nypan. He's in the academy at Man City, and has played 7 times in the league on loan at Middlesborough. He got 14 minutes at the end of a friendly against New Zealand. He's now a full international at 18 years old.
So the thing is we've also given games to a Man City academy player - Bazunu. (Technically on loan at Rochdale when he made his debut, but Nypan is on loan at Boro, so same thing). Bazunu was a full international at 19. Hasn't made him any good though - he's now bench warming at Southampton.

And while those sides have few players in their squads, their players tend to leave the domestic league at 21 or older, not 18 or 16. That's been shown by UEFA to make a big difference in player development. Nypan for example already has 70 games for Rosenborg. Adaramola, three years older, has played half that number of senior games, and mostly at a lower level. I'm going to hazard a guess here that Nypan is just a much better player than Adaramola. Ditto Roughan and Ndaba (both 25).

So by all means throw good players in - but don't go making the mistake of thinking that throwing them in makes them good players. It doesn't.

[Fixer82]

I might be a bit mad for saying this...but if we had won in Yerevan I think we'd all be singing a different tune...it was always going to be a stretch that we'd qualify for a playoff but all in all there's been a marked improvement over the Kenny era. The task is mountainous at this point and really needs a favour from Armenia but this is the first campaign since McCarthy where it's in our hands going into the last window.

I know some of the decisions were suspect. I know the players are still playing with less confidence than they should but we were 5 mins away from this being the best international window in years, results wise.

I don't know. Maybe it's bottom of the barrel stuff but I'm just happy we'll quite possibly get to enjoy a full qualifying campaign without any lame duck games. Thankfully Armenia are also theoretically still in the mix as well so they have it all to play for against Hungary.

Yep. I was only thinking what may have happened had Ferguson’s early effort in Yerevan gone in rather than hit the bar.

Azaz got a lot of stick for last night but he set up Idah for his disallowed goal and Ferguson for a one-on-one. His header early in second half was perfectly teed up for an overhead but he didn’t fancy it. Idah would’ve chanced the overhead I think.

On another note, who controls the screens in the Aviva? Not once did they show a replay. So frustrating

[pineapple stu]

On another note, who controls the screens in the Aviva? Not once did they show a replay. So frustrating
That was very annoying - and unusual in fairness.

Agree on the win in Yerevan comment - though ultimately we didn't, and we lost quite badly. The more that becomes not a one-off performance (we can now add the home game, the first half v Hungary, the friendly v Luxembourg), the more I think criticism of HH balances out to fair game.

[SkStu]

I might be a bit mad for saying this...but if we had won in Yerevan I think we'd all be singing a different tune...it was always going to be a stretch that we'd qualify for a playoff but all in all there's been a marked improvement over the Kenny era. The task is mountainous at this point and really needs a favour from Armenia but this is the first campaign since McCarthy where it's in our hands going into the last window.

I know some of the decisions were suspect. I know the players are still playing with less confidence than they should but we were 5 mins away from this being the best international window in years, results wise.

I don't know. Maybe it's bottom of the barrel stuff but I'm just happy we'll quite possibly get to enjoy a full qualifying campaign without any lame duck games. Thankfully Armenia are also theoretically still in the mix as well so they have it all to play for against Hungary.

thats a big, imaginary, pointless "if" though. The improvement is marginal if it is real and it is as likely down to the experience the team has (compared to Kennys days) v. a better coach / coaching.

[SkStu]

The three at the back/two centre mids fixation seems to be a Paddy McCarthy thing. It was a consistent feature of the O'Shea/McCarthy interim period too. I can't help feeling that he's quietly doing an awful lot of damage behind the scenes and there's little prospect of things getting better until he's gone. He's trying to play a Premier League type of setup with a group of midfielders that are nowhere near good enough to play like that, and when it doesn't work he seems to have nothing else to fall back on in terms of other ideas at all.

That said, he's a number two/number three in charge, so you have to hold the number one to account if he's allowing someone in his backroom team to continue to dictate despite consistently poor results.

We'll be put out of our misery quickly next month, which is just as well at this point. HH will go, but unless there's a full clear out alongside him nothing will change.

Agreed. when it happens, it simply has to be a full clear out.

[rebelmusic]

That was very annoying - and unusual in fairness.

Since we had ball boys last night they must have reallocated the funds from the fella managing the screens 😂

@Stu - I don't disagree. Just looking for that slim silver lining around the cloud of doom hovering over Irish soccer.

My biggest take away from this week is the difference having Coleman on the pitch made and is probably the biggest of HHs mistakes in previous windows. Collins is not the captain we need. For all the talk of N.Ireland and other small teams punching above their weight, I would argue the lack of leadership on the field is our singular biggest challenge...which is remarkable when we have 3 players (that I can think of) who are captains of their clubs

[Kingdom]

What players out there are we not having the courage to play?

I dunno, it's hard not to make comments here and be totally demoralised by the passage of time. I'm posting here 20 years and I've slowly but surely degressed into 'old man shouts at clouds' whereas I can remember always being the overexcited always positive kid who would back us through thick and thin. And now it's gone, I'm done, there's absolutely nothing to be excited by. And I f'king hate being critical - it depresses the fk out of me, and while it's always easier to find faults, this team makes it so much easier to find those faults rather than the positives.

One point I have made regularly on here in the past decade is that we have zero players who are the cornerstone in an attacking sense of their club side. Not one player who gets the ball and makes something happen in that area between the middle third and the final third. And looking at the current squad, that's absolutely the case. I know the case will be made for Azaz being that player but last night was absolutely horrid to watch him hide behind his marker at times when we had the ball, and the same was the case for Smallbone - he doesn't escape that focus either. I recall one specific moment where Seamus had a throw-in on the East Stand side in the first half and it took Molumby circling three players into space while those three players remained motionless.

I think of probably two players who could potentially receive a ball behind a striker and look to work it either slipping a ball in or taking a shot from distance or spreading it out wide - possibly Troy Parrott or possibly Rocco Vata; certainly neither would be afraid of taking the ball into contact.

- We are absolutely handicapping ourselves unnecessarily with our formation. I cannot underline how much I'm a fan of a back three - when it is utilised correctly with the appropriate personnel. But we can't get to grips with it and to some extent I think it is strangling the life out of us.
- We played a 541 at home to Armenia, I can't understand that. I do not understand why Parrott wasn't given a start last night (unless he was unable to start but that doesn't seem to be the case).


I'd intended to put a lot more into this reply, but honestly I don't have the heart for it any more.

[SkStu]

@Stu - I don't disagree. Just looking for that slim silver lining around the cloud of doom hovering over Irish soccer.

fair enough! I am just done with this team and management - and trying to understand WTF is so wrong with us as a footballing nation. Its all rotten and useless.

[ontheotherhand]

It's all grim son.

Pick a style of play and find the players that work best in it, or pick the best available players and then a style that works for them. We seem to be doing neither. We have a formation, but I don't see much in terms of a plan, outside of the long throws...which a lot of teams are adding to their arsenal these days. Not sure the formation really suits the players either. Seems like we just use it to get 3 centre halves on the field due to the number of options there.

The players look confused or unable to work as a cohesive unit to me. Watching them last night it looked like it was a bit of a free for all in terms of who did what and when. Outside of the bit of chemistry Coleman and Festy had, nobody really looked like they knew their job. Watching Molumby trying to beat two players and do something at one point just smacked of desperation and panic. When you look at the likes of Armenia they just look much better drilled, with players who know their role. Even after the red, when we started creating chances, they came from a bit of a scattergun approach rather than a replicable process. At least that's how it seemed to me. It worked OK and we should've scored 2 or 3 but I don't think it would have worked against a better team.

Don't see a lot of improvement under HH and we've probably actually regressed in certain ways in possession. We do seem a bit harder to beat, and we aren't conceding to long range efforts so the results are a bit better. He might be a bit luckier than Kenny, given the red cards that have glossed over some really poor performances.

All that said, we aren't going anywhere until we find a midfielder or two who can get on the ball and do something. Which has been the case for a long time. We are OK almost everywhere else. Bypassing midfield to go direct isn't the answer for me because the ball will be coming back through our midfield more often than not if we are outnumbered up top, which we will usually be. Our midfielders aren't good enough to provide the extra threat needed to play that way and win second balls etc. Neither are our wingbacks with the exception of Ogbene maybe, at least going forward. Ferguson might be a good option as a target man, but who is playing off him and who is arriving late to score the goals? Craig Bellamy did a nice job recently of explaining why he believes the direct option doesn't really work these days.

That said, I still don't understand why our midfielders can't shine against the likes of Armenia. They had a lot of time and space last night even before the red card, loads more than they would get a club level, but they seem completely lost and unable to make the time and space count for anything. It's all rushed and they run into trouble more often than not. Maybe it's the setup, maybe its the pressure. No idea.

Agree with stu that it's probably only going to get worse until we figure out a new pathway to develop our players or improve the existing one. I mean, that was pretty clear a long time ago I think. The new academy funding will help but it's a drop in a bucket really. For now, finding a good coach who can pick the right system for what we have, or even a good motivator who can squeeze a bit of life out of a team with very little balance to it, is the best we can probably hope for. With our budget it's probably one or the other. Or just let HH at it for another year. Maybe he'll grow into it.

[Kingdom]

Eddie Howe is not going to be influenced by a token 20 minutes in a meaningless June friendly against Luxembourg.

Stephen Kenny gave debuts early in their careers to Idah, Molumby, Knight, Kelleher, Bazunu, Parrott, O'Shea, Smallbone, Armstrong, Moran, Omobamidele and others. Some have gone on to do quite well (Kelleher, Parrott), others are players we're now crying out to be removed from the senior squad (Idah, Smallbone), others may never get more than a token cap (Armstrong, Moran). I don't think it was wrong of Kenny to cap those guys - we had no choice - but equally I'd say their international careers have had very very little impact on their club careers.

We need to stop pretending that a player not in the squad is de facto better than the players who are in the squad, despite the natural attraction of the unknown. Adaramola, Ndaba and Roughan have done the square root of **** all to earn a cap. MacNulty is a possible exception, depending on whether he can play left-back (great) or centre-back (meh).

And equally, Armenia had a Nigerian playing for them in both games by virtue of the fact he's played in the Armenian league for the last five years and is now naturalised. That's a league lower-ranked than the LoI. When a side of Championship players struggles to break down a side whose defensive lynchpin is at a lower level than the LoI, then I don't think picking weaker players will help. There's a bigger factor at play, be it psychological, tactics, or plain old giving a ****.

Stuart, I know what you are referring to above, but that's not the point. it's not about Eddie Howe selecting Alex Murphy - not a tier 1 club manager picking a novice.
It's about seeing if a kid has the smarts to fill an area that is a problem for us. If he tanks, it's no loss - nothing ventured nothing gained. But if he threads water, he gets another shot, maybe shows a few green shoots worthy of a competitive match start. This might lead to a middling Tier 3 or continental club giving him a prolonged run in the side, alongside which he continues to plug a hole and develop for us.

But he never gets that shot to plug the hole and perhaps the career middles away to nothing.

I suppose to many extents, there are few players in the Ireland team deserving of being considered an automatic selection over the past 5 years.

[Razors left peg]

Dunno why we bother, everything is sh1te since Roy Orbison died!

[Fixer82]

Why can’t we play a 3 man midfield against Armenia rather than a 3 man central defence?

[jbyrne]

On another note, who controls the screens in the Aviva? Not once did they show a replay. So frustrating

and they had the hungarian crest on the scoreboard for about 20 mins or so during the game!

the whole matchday experience is so drab and cheap. crap techno music just before teams come out, anthem at 50% speed, no on screen replays, a pa who welcomes the opposition onto the pitch!! wheres the attempts to get the crowd whipped up to make it an intimidating venue for opposition teams? its all so lazy and we deserve better

[Fixer82]

and they had the hungarian crest on the scoreboard for about 20 mins or so during the game!

the whole matchday experience is so drab and cheap. crap techno music just before teams come out, anthem at 50% speed, no on screen replays, a pa who welcomes the opposition onto the pitch!! wheres the attempts to get the crowd whipped up to make it an intimidating venue for opposition teams? its all so lazy and we deserve better

The anthem really comes down to the singer they get in. Like the unaccompanied singer. Lisa Lambe nailed it (remember Ferguson’s reaction before France?) but Gearoid McCarthy sang it too low and too slow last night.

[SkStu]

We just make a hames of everything. We simply aren't suited for football. ;)

[SkStu]

It's all grim son.

Class. [i was a little slow picking up on that one]

[pineapple stu]

Stuart, I know what you are referring to above, but that's not the point. it's not about Eddie Howe selecting Alex Murphy - not a tier 1 club manager picking a novice.
But that was one of the points that was made.



It's about seeing if a kid has the smarts to fill an area that is a problem for us. If he tanks, it's no loss - nothing ventured nothing gained. But if he threads water, he gets another shot, maybe shows a few green shoots worthy of a competitive match start. This might lead to a middling Tier 3 or continental club giving him a prolonged run in the side, alongside which he continues to plug a hole and develop for us.

But he never gets that shot to plug the hole and perhaps the career middles away to nothing.
Honestly, I feel like this is a symptom of how bad we are right now, not a solution to it

What you (and backs) are describing is how a club team might work. But an international team isn't a club team. Firstly, we don't necessarily need to throw a kid in for a game to see if he's any good - that's what Wyacout is there for. It doesn't take much to figure out that Adaramola - 22 next month and with barely 50 senior game across a variety of unimpressive Liam deals - isn't an option at the moment. A half-decent half-hour in a dream friendly against Luxembourg - if that's when possible - isn't going to suddenly have the scouts clamouring at his door. No more than it's done for Armstrong or Moran and so on

You gave a detailed post which ended in an abrupt malaise on who we don't have the courage to play - and ended up with nobody really. There's nobody not playing who'd make a noticeable difference. I think that can be the correct answer. The quick fix of "Ooh, let's start a 19-year-old - he night her a move out of it and take develop" sounds great. Lots of quick fixes sound great. But they're usually ineffective distractions from the real issue

I've more or less given up on ever seeing us at a World Cup again tbh.

[Eirambler]

Why can’t we play a 3 man midfield against Armenia rather than a 3 man central defence?

It appears that either Hallgrimsson, McCarthy or (more likely) a combination of the two is the reason. Why it hasn't been properly tried when the status quo approach is so obviously failing is beyond me.

But conceding central midfield the way we are electing to is causing us problems all over the pitch. It means we never get any decent foothold in games (at least in games against 11 players) so we create nothing of note going forward. Meanwhile it just invites pressure on our defence and makes our defenders look poorer players than they are, as attack after attack comes in on them they eventually fold, as any defence would do in that situation really.

Really even when things looked OK a while back, against Finland and Bulgaria, looking back at it we never really had control even then but just about managed to get the job done those times.

I guess I'm just thinking back to games like the Scotland home game where we played all three of Cullen, Knight and Molumby in the middle - three out and out centre mids, and they took on a very decent opposition midfield in McGinn, McTominay and McGregor and came out on top. Granted that was in a 3-5-2 rather than a four at the back, and the weakness of other aspects of the 3-5-2 were a large part of Kenny's undoing in the end.

But that part of it worked at times and if three out and out centre mids were played in front of a flat back four with wingers/AMs and Ferguson up top there could still just about be some life in this team down the line at some point. At least in terms of getting back to being too good for the likes of Armenia if nothing else.

[ifk101]

We did play a midfield 3 with McCarthy. We struggled away to Gibraltar with the 2 so it was switched to a three for the Georgia at home game. Glenn Whelan sitting in front of back four.

But just on Kenny (again), think there needs acknowledgement that not all was bad as there were three distinct phases of Kenny’s time in charge.
1. The initial NL phase – characterised by passivity, passing for the sake of passing. Bad.
2. The second Barry/ Eustace phase – this is where the 3 CBs became a thing for us. Some questionable results; lost to Luxembourg + lost to Armenia, but signs we were turning the corner in terms of structure and gameplan. We were struggling to score goals for many years up to this point, this is something people forget, but this changed during this phase. Good.
3. The final phase coincides with O’Shea coming into the fold and we’re been on a downward spiral ever since. Terrible.

If Eustace comes available, possible with Derby’s league position, maybe he could get us back to that second phase good.

[Eirambler]

Sorry, I should clarify that pretty much all references to "McCarthy" at this point relate to Paddy McCarthy, not Mick.

I think by and large the Kenny era needs to be left in the past where it belongs (though I agree there was a mini surge at one point before the wheels completely came off). As will be the case for the Hallgrimsson one soon you'd have to think.

[Nesta99]

I know you create luck and all that but we really dont get a whole lot of it. Recent red cards aside which is ill discipline by opposition and a lifeline rather than luck; but ball never dropping kindly in the box, keepers pulling off career once off worldy saves. I thknk Kenny was an very unlucky manager along with losing his way. HH I thought was turning out to have a lucky streak but not really and you do need the rub of the green at times too. Ball coming off Collins knee for a second goal than through his legs stuff. Ball pinging around the Hungarian box but just never to a green shirt and gets scrambled away. A multiple deflected goal against portugal 10 seconds from FT to win is due!

[zero]

at the risk of being hounded out of the forum... is there a case for recalling james mcclean for the november games? manning will be suspended and it doesn't feel like robbie brady will be back on time, though fingers crossed on that front. mcclean does bring that element of leadership and passion that may help inspire the younger players.

i do think though that he is no longer first choice for wrexham.

[Colbert Report]

Yes, I think he's by far our best option for the left side of the park if Brady is not fit. McClean expressed bewilderment at his own forced international retirement and send off match. He'd never turn down a chance to play for Ireland. Who is better right now?

[Razors left peg]

Id rather play Evan Ferguson at left back than recall McClean at this point

[elatedscum]

at the risk of being hounded out of the forum... is there a case for recalling james mcclean for the november games? manning will be suspended and it doesn't feel like robbie brady will be back on time, though fingers crossed on that front. mcclean does bring that element of leadership and passion that may help inspire the younger players.

i do think though that he is no longer first choice for wrexham.

What are the realistic options?

- Robbie Brady (currently injured)
- Ryan Manning, suspended for game 1 (i hope they call him up for game 2, unlike when they left Molumby out because he was suspended for the first game)
- Callum O'Dowda (currently injured, called up to the most recent squad)
- Josh Honahan (called up to most recent squad to replace O'Dowda and ruled out with injury)
- Will Ferry called up to most recent squad (when Honahan was ruled out)
- Liam Scales, really not a left back and even less a wing back
- Dara O'Shea, same as scales
- Matt Doherty, naturally a right back but played at left back for us against Hungary
- James McClean, retired in 2023
- Jon Gallagher, we never call up lads from the MLS but comfortable on either side and just another season playing well in the US

League 1 options: Sean Roughan, Joel Bagan, Tayo Adaramola

[Razors left peg]

What are the realistic options?

- Robbie Brady (currently injured)
- Ryan Manning, suspended for game 1 (i hope they call him up for game 2, unlike when they left Molumby out because he was suspended for the first game)
- Callum O'Dowda (currently injured, called up to the most recent squad)
- Josh Honahan (called up to most recent squad to replace O'Dowda and ruled out with injury)
- Will Ferry called up to most recent squad (when Honahan was ruled out)
- Liam Scales, really not a left back and even less a wing back
- Dara O'Shea, same as scales
- Matt Doherty, naturally a right back but played at left back for us against Hungary
- James McClean, retired in 2023
- Jon Gallagher, we never call up lads from the MLS but comfortable on either side and just another season playing well in the US

League 1 options: Sean Roughan, Joel Bagan, Tayo Adaramola

If I was to bet on it right now Id guess that Doherty will play left back

[backstothewall]

You gave a detailed post which ended in an abrupt malaise on who we don't have the courage to play - and ended up with nobody really. There's nobody not playing who'd make a noticeable difference. I think that can be the correct answer. The quick fix of "Ooh, let's start a 19-year-old - he night her a move out of it and take develop" sounds great. Lots of quick fixes sound great. But they're usually ineffective distractions from the real issue

I've more or less given up on ever seeing us at a World Cup again tbh.

It's the very opposite of a quick fix. It's taking a long view and looking for players who might be able to get up to speed with international football in a few years time and have a good 8-10 years beyond that if given the opportunity to play now.

Had we taken this approach 2 or 3 years ago we might have an option at left back for the Portugal game who now has 4 or 5 caps. Assuming Brady won't be fit we're now forced into a position where there's no option other than giving someone their debut.

There are 4 Irish left backs playing senior football this season

Joel Bagan: Played the most football of anyone available. Played 11 games and first choice for Cardiff who are doing well at the top end of League 1.
Tayo Adaramola: Played fewer game but first choice for Leyton Orient who are mid-table in League 1.
Corrie Ndaba: Played far less football than the others, but has had a few sub appearances in Serie A. Also got through 90 minutes against AC Milan in an Italian Cup match.
Sean Roughan: Was playing regularly for Huddersfield in League 1, but has been on the bench for the last few matches.

Failing that it's bringing James McClean back, or attempt to slam a round peg into a square hole. A 36 year old McClean is as big a gamble as giving a kid their debut so I see no value in that. And I never want to see Matt Doherty in an Ireland shirt again.

Ndaba is the least worst option for me. That single game aginst Milan gives him the edge. But this is a ridiculous situation to find ourselves in.

[Razors left peg]

This also highlights how fcuking brain dead it was of Manning to get the yellow card in a stupid situation. The player had turned him on the halfway line, there was loads of cover and he was going nowhere. It was idiotic from Manning

[Eirambler]

The pattern of callups would suggest that Will Ferry may be the next cab off the rank if Brady, Manning and O'Dowda are all unavailable. It might depend whether he impressed in camp in the last week, Honohan may also be seen as an option if fit. I don't think Doherty can play wing back to international standard now, he's a barely passable right sided centre back these days.

[Razors left peg]

The pattern of callups would suggest that Will Ferry may be the next cab off the rank if Brady, Manning and O'Dowda are all unavailable. It might depend whether he impressed in camp in the last week, Honohan may also be seen as an option if fit. I don't think Doherty can play wing back to international standard now, he's a barely passable right sided centre back these days.

I agree that he shouldnt play, but Id bet that he will

[SkStu]

If I looked up "what the f*ck is wrong with us" in a dictionary, pretty sure it would just be a picture of Doherty.