FAO St Pats Fans - Groundsharing

[Vitruvian Man]

Lads,
I heard recently (and I can't name my source) that St Pats were in a meeting with the FAI where they were told that it is now government policy NOT to approve grant funding for any Dublin clubs because they want to force ground sharing on us.

The Government Plan being...
Pats + Rovers = Tallaght
Bohs + Shels = Abbotstown

Dodgey, MrNightclub, MMS, can you confirm or deny.

[Dodge]

Well we were told that the last grant we got would be the last for that reason. Not sure whether they want to force groundsharing on us, more likely their way of making cutbacks (without using that word)

[wws]

posted that on this board ages ago VW

[pete]

Makes sense.

[BohDiddley]

How on earth does that make sense?
If you ask me it is the best possible strategy to reduce four clubs to two in the long run.

[sonofstan]

Makes sense.

why? would you want to move 5 miles out of town to a site with almost no transport links, no pubs and no sustaining community? whatever about Shels and Rovers, whose links with their original areas are by now tenuous, for us and Pats, D7 and Inchicore have, respectively, been home to generations of fans; the clubs are part of the area, and the areas would be poorer without them. I don't want to have to drive for an hour in rush hour traffic on a friday to get to a home match, but at least I can; the generation of Bohs fans now in their teens won't have that option. I don't object to groundsharing as such; but Dalymount is a much better option for us and Shels than Abbotstown. At least Inchicore and Tallaght are decently connected by the Luas so that one might work, but I'd be sorry to see richmond go

[pete]

I don't really care what location as thats up to the clubs themselves.

I don't know if eL sides in Dublin have much links with local communities anymore. Pats have good links with Inchicore but no other sides have much local links anymore.

[Wiseguy]

It appears to be another chance for the govt. and F.A.I. to fcuk over the EL.IMO the govt. and the F.A.I. would much sooner see our best players go across the water and play 3rd tier footie than stay here.The F.A.I. and the govt. do not want to invest in the game here as it would mean the F.A.I. would have to do some work and maybe even give up the 1st class seats they so proudly sit in travelling all over the world.From what i can see the future of the EL hangs in the balance.It suffers from poor exposure,poor crowds,lack of funding and always being second fiddle to lower level english football.For a lot of people in power the EL is like the dirty end of the stick which no one wants to touch.Without huge improvements there will be no future for fulltime football in this country other than a couple of clubs.If that happens then the league will end up like the SPL.I have played soccer and gaelic all over this country and it's amazing how all GAA clubs have dressing rooms and showers as a bear minimum yet with a lot of soccer pitches you get togged out on the sideline and you have nowhere to even go for a p1ss other than a ditch.The unfortunate fact is that the EL is viewed by many as a part time no future novelty soccer league.

[Roverstillidie]

Makes sense.

go and play in cobh if its such a good idea!

[pete]

go and play in cobh if its such a good idea!

Thats like telling Pats to go lay in Bray which is not what i'm suggesting.

Dublin clubs need facilities to attract punters whereas non Dublin clubs have greater community spirit as usually the only eL club in the City or County.

Building costs are so much more expensive in Dublin so no chance existing clubs will improve their facilities in the short term. How you you get the locla authority to spend money on 1 clubs ground instead of another like Rovers situation?

[Roo69]

Bray are not a dublin club, believe it or not - Pats and Wanderers are in totally different countys

[Roverstillidie]

Thats like telling Pats to go lay in Bray which is not what i'm suggesting.


You might as well be. Pats of all the Dublin clubs are most connected with the local area. Hence their reluctance to leave.
Shels have no fans, hence their enthusiasm to sell their lease in Tolka and start agan somewhere else.

Groundsharing in Italy works in MUNICIPAL STADIUMS FULLY FUNDED AND MAINTAINED BY THE STATE.

[BohDiddley]

Thats like telling Pats to go lay in Bray which is not what i'm suggesting.

Dublin clubs need facilities to attract punters whereas non Dublin clubs have greater community spirit as usually the only eL club in the City or County.

Building costs are so much more expensive in Dublin so no chance existing clubs will improve their facilities in the short term. How you you get the locla authority to spend money on 1 clubs ground instead of another like Rovers situation?
Have to say I'm getting a bit tired of this non-Dublin pontificating about what's good for Dublin clubs.
This is a deeply sinister plot: where is it coming from and who is driving it?

[Dodge]

BTW Pats will never leave Inchicore. If we start seling it out every week, they'll start looking but tbh I can't seeit happening

[Drumcondra Red]

Shels have no fans, hence their enthusiasm to sell their lease in Tolka and start agan somewhere else.

You sir are an idiot!

I have mixed feelings on groundshare, although wouldn't mind so much if it kept us away from Lissenhall!!!

[Vitruvian Man]

Thanks to the Pat's lads, I just wanted an independant confirmation.

Pete
Your attitude is an "I'm allright Jack" attitude.
I think Cork City and Cobh Ramblers should sell their grounds and share a new ground in Youghal.

[dcfcsteve]

I strongly suspect that this is an FAI initiative, and that they are either using the government funding/view as an excuse to hide their 'big idea' behind, and/or they have told the government of their 'blueprint' for ground-sharing and the gov has agreed. As the Kaiser Chiefs would probably lament : "Every day I trust them (the FAI) less and less..."

Our clubs struggle as it is to attract crowds. Having 2 teams competing with each other for the loyalty of the population of a single area like, for example, Tallaght will make that job even harder. Why put our clubs in direct copmpetition with each other for support. Dublin is a big city, with room for 4 big clubs I believe.

[Roverstillidie]

You sir are an idiot!

I have mixed feelings on groundshare, although wouldn't mind so much if it kept us away from Lissenhall!!!

so why exactly are shels planning on leaving a centrally located ground to move 20 miles up the coast? the scenery?

because your success on the pitch has not been mirrored on the terraces. Rovers at their lowest ever ebb consitantly get more in the door, and pats aint having a great time either, but more punters in.

oily wants a greenfield site and not have to compete with the bores and chf for local fans. hardly a secret!

[rerun]

As soon as Rovers get into Tallaght and Shels move to north County Dublin, I think the situation will look quite different. Bohs and Pats will perhaps consolidate their situations as the two "city centre" clubs, while Shels and Rovers will have the opportunity to develop a local fanbase in areas where, hopefully, they'll be based for some time.
To get rid of the idea of ground sharing it's probably imperative that the two moves take place as it's the apparent proximity of the clubs that provides the impetus towards ground sharing.

[pete]

As soon as Rovers get into Tallaght and Shels move to north County Dublin, I think the situation will look quite different. Bohs and Pats will perhaps consolidate their situations as the two "city centre" clubs, while Shels and Rovers will have the opportunity to develop a local fanbase in areas where, hopefully, they'll be based for some time.


I think i'd agree with that but guarantee Shels move will ever happen. Their plans are currently sketchy at best. As you say Shels & Rovers will essentially be county teams.

[Drumcondra Red]

so why exactly are shels planning on leaving a centrally located ground to move 20 miles up the coast? the scenery?

Your guess is as good as mine!!!

Although I stand by what you said about us having no fans, its a boring arguement, and we get pretty much as many as you every week!!!

[wws]

have to say thats BS lads in fairness
its a poor grasp on the dublin geography - Tallaght is basically right on pats doorstep - its quite a strange, place being bigger than most provincial cities, but with no well thought out centre to my eyes - maybe rovers in a civic stadium will be some new community focal point but its stretching it in my view given the low base that el clubs come from when it comes to committed week in week out paying punters

its commuter links mean a lot of ppl go to pats games from that direction anyway - I dont perceive tallaght as county dublin in that sense - and i come from out that way

[manic da hoop]

Those who persist in pushing the idea of groundshares/mergers (media/FAI/government/rural clubs) are the ones who know the least about the set-up of eL football in the capital. Ultimately such decision should and will only be made by the clubs themselves. Anybody with any kind of connection with the so-called Big Four knows that the only thing Bohs, Shels, Rovers and Pats have in common is that they all play within the confines of a sprawling city with some 1.2 million inhabitants - the similarities end there. Even the nature of the fanbase of each of the clubs is quite different. As a Rovers fan I have as little in common with someone who follows any of the other Dublin clubs as I do with say Cobh or Athlone. Both Pats and Bohs have very defined localities (Pats in particular) while Shels have tried and failed to establish themselves as a Drumcondra club, but their problems are hardly likely to be overcome by moving in with Bohs! There is massive potential for Rovers in Tallaght and SDCC have made absolutely no noises about even suggesting that Pats come on board with us, besides Pats seem perfectly happy where they are.

[Vitruvian Man]

As soon as Rovers get into Tallaght and Shels move to north County Dublin, I think the situation will look quite different. Bohs and Pats will perhaps consolidate their situations as the two "city centre" clubs, while Shels and Rovers will have the opportunity to develop a local fanbase in areas where, hopefully, they'll be based for some time.
To get rid of the idea of ground sharing it's probably imperative that the two moves take place as it's the apparent proximity of the clubs that provides the impetus towards ground sharing.


I think this would be the development plan that would seem most natural the majority of supporters.

Pats and Bohs as the two city clubs and Rovers and Shels as the two sub-urban clubs.

It even leaves room for the likes of UCD and Dub City to have their niche.

But I think we are seeing the unholy alliance of FAI and Government here. One desperately wants to prove that taxpayers money wasn't wasted on a white elephant stadium out in a wasteland beside a swimming pool that has more holes than a seive. The other want to cash in on prime land in Dublin 2 to feather their nests AND get something for nothing, and they don't care who they fcuk over in order to get it.

[higgins]

Shels have no fans, hence their enthusiasm to sell their lease in Tolka and start agan somewhere else.

Shels crowds are higher this season then Rovers and Pats and are within a few of Bohs.
We may have little or no fans but we are all in the same boat.

[TheOwl]

In the Fingal area there is also a lot people who have a "I don't really follow an EL team but if I was to support anybody it would be Shels" attitude.

Over the years I have gone to Shels matches with I'd say over 20 different people. Only 3 or 4 of us still go regularly, but the others would still have an affinity with Shels over other clubs, and might still consider going to the big European games and such.

This I’d imagine is true for all the Dublin clubs. Surely you’ve come across taxi drivers who say things like “yeah I support Rovers, but haven’t been for years, couldn’t even tell you any of their current players.”

I don’t know how you can attract these guys back though.

I think Shels trying to establish themselves as *the* Fingal club by moving out in that direction is a good idea, a lot of the clubs newer support comes from out that way anyway, I just wish they could find someone a bit better off that Lissenhall!!

Somewhere closer to the centre of Swords would have been ideal.

[ThatGuy]

Shels crowds are higher this season then Rovers and Pats and are within a few of Bohs.
We may have little or no fans but we are all in the same boat.
Bohs' crowds have been disastrous this season so that's not anything to be bragging about at all!

[higgins]

Who was bragging ??

I said Shels fans were higher then Rovers and Pats and a few off Bohs

Bohs 2133 (2340)
Shels 2048 (2158)
Rovers 1811 (1466) (missing Drogheda)
Pat's 1653 (1882)

Whats your point?

[rerun]

Nonsense with regard to rovers.
Rovers support has always been city wide and will always remain so.

I think he was winding you up, I basically meant that there would be two teams inside and two outside the canals. I think calling Tallaght and the surrounding area a "county area" disregards the fact that the urban sprawl of the area means that the city and town are basically spreading into each other.

As for your point that Rovers support has always been city wide, I wouldn't disagree. But when you are settled in Tallaght I think that you will draw more support from the local area and will not attract people from the areas where the team has been temporarily based over the years.

[Dodge]

Shels crowds are higher this season then Rovers and Pats and are within a few of Bohs.
We may have little or no fans but we are all in the same boat.
Possibly but this season has seen both Pats and Rovers reach rock bottom and shels are current champions with designs on reaching the champions league and even then its not clearcut omn the crowds 9as Shels don't release official figures)

I'll point out, again, that Shels brought (well) less than 1,000 fans to a game in Dublin when they won the league. Joke of a club IMO

[higgins]

Dublin is located on the east coast of Ireland in the (The proper sphere or extent of your activities) province of (Click link for more info and facts about Leinster) Leinster. The area formerly held (A region created by territorial division for the purpose of local government) county status until its dissolution as such in 1994, where Section 9 Part 1(a) of the Local Government (Dublin) Act, 1993 stated that as of 1st January 1994 "the county shall cease to exist"1. At that time, and in response to a European Council report highlighting Ireland as the most centralised country in the (An international organization of European countries formed after World War II to reduce trade barriers and increase cooperation among its members) European Union, it was decided that a single County Dublin was unmanageable and undemocratic from a (The government of a local area) Local Government perspective. The county was formally abolished and replaced with (Click link for more info and facts about Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown) Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown, (Click link for more info and facts about Fingal) Fingal, and (Click link for more info and facts about South Dublin) South Dublin. The Government was fully aware of the magnitude of the legislation that was being passed, most poignantly noted by Deputy Avril Doyle in the (The lower house of the parliament of the Irish Free State) Dáil assembly of the 3rd of November 1993, where she declared "The Bill before us today effectively abolishes County Dublin. I am not sure whether Dubliners realise that that is what we are about today, but in effect that is the case"2. At present, many organisations, state agencies and sporting teams continue to operate on a "County Dublin" basis. Subsequently, much confusion exists around the legitimacy of the new counties - though they do have (Click link for more info and facts about administrative county) administrative county status, the only protected recognition of a county within the Irish State. The new counties, in place of County Dublin, will appear on all Irish national maps from 2006 onwards. The formal title of what was County Dublin in Irish legislation is now the Greater Dublin Area (GDA). The (A period count of the population) census of 20023 recorded the total population of the GDA at 1,122,821, accounting for 28% of the national figure.

[higgins]

Dodge I have posted up the facts...

You and others on here can twist them around to whatever way its suits you. The debate wasnt over who gets the most fans and it wasnt over WHY either.

If you want to go down that road why not open a new thread?

[paudie]

Lads,
I heard recently (and I can't name my source) that St Pats were in a meeting with the FAI where they were told that it is now government policy NOT to approve grant funding for any Dublin clubs because they want to force ground sharing on us.

The Government Plan being...
Pats + Rovers = Tallaght
Bohs + Shels = Abbotstown

Dodgey, MrNightclub, MMS, can you confirm or deny.

You'd think the FAI/government would state publicly that this is their policy so that at least it could be debated by the clubs/supporters etc.

Unfortunately I think both of them prefer the cloak and dagger way of doing business however :(

[wws]

you havent posted up any facts

where are you getting them figures from

your arsé?

[mypost]

Bray are not a dublin club, believe it or not - Pats and Wanderers are in totally different countys

You call yourselves a Dublin club when it suits you. :rolleyes:


Dublin Club's Core Fan Base:

Shamrock Rovers: Dublin 22, 24
St. Pats. Ath.: Dublin 8, 10, 12
Bohemians: Northside
Einstein Wannabees (UCD): Dublin 4, Dortheads
Bray Wanderers: North Wicklow, County Dublin, Dortheads
Shelbourne: Undefined
Home Farm: Non descript.

[ThatGuy]

Who was bragging ??

I said Shels fans were higher then Rovers and Pats and a few off Bohs

Bohs 2133 (2340)
Shels 2048 (2158)
Rovers 1811 (1466) (missing Drogheda)
Pat's 1653 (1882)

Whats your point?
I know you're not bragging, my point is that no club in Dublin can brag about attendances. No Dublin club can be happy, satisfied, or even slightly disappointed with their average attendance.

The sorry truth is that if you were to combine the average attendances at recent Bohs and Shels games the figure would barely be an acceptable average attendance for either club considering their expenditure.

The only club in Ireland that can be happy with its average attendance is Cork. Why they get the crowds they do I have no idea, perhaps it is becase the people of Cork identify themselves with their county far more than their Dublin counterparts do, their club is basically seen as county representatives, and there is a far greater sense of community there.

Derry can be reasonably happy too I suppose, but their attendances aren't great either.

As for Bohemians attendances, a couple of years ago it looked like we were goin to hit a decent average, alas the club started to go into decline and at the moment it looks like we are trying to dig our way out without much of a plan. I think that the Jodi Stand is the only proper footballing facility in Dublin, and until we can provide more than 2800 seats with decent facilities (and provide a good team and do some proper marketing etc) we will struggle with attendances.

As for Shels, despite being the dominant force in irish football over the last decade, advertising heavily in Dublin and milking the publicity for recent European successes, their struggle with attendances is remarkable. I don't know why they don't have better attendances than anyone else here, but I think that Tolka Park is the primary factor. The toilets are an absolute disgrace, the view of the pitch is obstructed by numerous pillars, and it is not a nice ground. I doubt that it would be easy to tempt anyone who is not already a die-hard Shels fan back.

As for Rovers, when they move to Tallagt I expect they will have an average of 2500-3500 if Roddy is doing the business.

[Drumcondra Red]

Who are you??? Cork I assume, just because they get a few bandwagon jumpers they're the bees knees???

[higgins]

you havent posted up any facts

where are you getting them figures from

your arsé?

no, its from the attendance thread on this website. I know of no better place to judge the attendance then from that. You can pick out once off games all you like and say we had 200 there or whatever and I agree its crap but the figures on that thread are averages and its best we deal with those. They are fairly close to the real figures. Bohs are all official as far as I know and most of shels early ones are too. Pats seemed to be official too up until a few weeks back? If you dont accept them then fair enough.

To ThatGuy,,,
I agree with you nobody has a decent crowd. I was trying to make that point after the smart comments about shels and why it doesnt matter where they go. The FACT is up until last week (before Bohs V Rovers, Shels V UCD) we had the highest average out of all Dublin clubs so to make comments like the ones above was adding nothing to the argument.

[Cosmo]

In fairness no clubs supporters have any right to 'brag' about attendances - and i mean having away crowds too.

Corks away crowds have been great in the last 2 seasons or so but I can recall when they barely brought 20 up to Drogheda on a regular basis and that wasnt very long ago. But fair play though for turning that around, hopefully they can keep it up for a good few years (and stop exaggerating how many fans they bring to away matches when they don't have to - thats a compliment btw, no need to exaggerate). I also recall being at a cork/ shels match in cork and being a very poor crowd - also very poor crowd usually when we play down there.

Anyway as per population cork should be getting the crowds of what theyre getting comparing it to crowds and population of towns like drogheda.

So can people stop trying to brag about attendances when theyre all sh!t!!!!

Btw can people stop using 'FACT' as it looks stupid - FACT ;)

[wws]

no, its from the attendance thread on this website. I know of no better place to judge the attendance then from that. You can pick out once off games all you like and say we had 200 there or whatever and I agree its crap but the figures on that thread are averages and its best we deal with those. They are fairly close to the real figures. Bohs are all official as far as I know and most of shels early ones are too. Pats seemed to be official too up until a few weeks back? If you dont accept them then fair enough.

To ThatGuy,,,
I agree with you nobody has a decent crowd. I was trying to make that point after the smart comments about shels and why it doesnt matter where they go. The FACT is up until last week (before Bohs V Rovers, Shels V UCD) we had the highest average out of all Dublin clubs so to make comments like the ones above was adding nothing to the argument.


fo a minute there i thought you had the official figure

the attendance thread on this website is 100% bogus and not to be considered in any serious context - pats are one of the only prem teams that announce the attendance at every game

[higgins]

So can you give me the attendances of the Pats home games so far this season?

Id like to get th eaverage and see how it compares to the bogus figures from that thread.

Also, Bohs & Cork give official attendances...

[ThatGuy]

He said Pats are the only club who announce the attendance during a game. Bohs don't, though our attendances are published in the match programme.

[TheOwl]

I think Shels “poor” support compared to other clubs comes from the fact that for years it was a dead duck of a club, especially in the 80s.

I’m sure if there was a foot.ie equivalent back in the mid-80s when Shels had no home and were in the First Division, and you posted that in 20 years time Shels would be getting crowds as big as Bohs and Rovers and would have numerous trophies to their name, then you would have been laughed at.

People always said about Shels up to recently (and some still do) that their support almost entirely consisted of kids and auld lads, and this was pretty much an undeniable fact.

Now though, those kids (I, of which was one, being 12 when I started supporting Shels in 1992, and now being 24), are growing up and this will lead to a change of dynamics within the Shels support.

This will be both good and bad, for example, I’m witnessing trouble at Shels games for the first time since I started supporting them, which is a direct result of certain fans getting to a certain age.

However, people around my age will also start having families etc. over the next 20 years or so and more and more Shelbourne families will then start to emerge, leading to a more balanced pattern to our support.

Also some of the kids who supported Shels, and then drifted away in their teens, may comeback to the club when they settle down and start looking to bring their kids to games.

What I’m saying is, that Shels have had recent success sure, but people in their 20s and 30s don’t jump on a glory hunting bandwagons like that, kids do.

Shels started to become a successful club in the 90s and kids like me went along, the true legacy of Shels winning that support won’t be felt short-term, it will be a long-term steady gain.

[Vitruvian Man]

Btw can people stop using 'FACT' as it looks stupid - FACT ;)


FACT is trademarked by Bohs fans.

Get your own pointless internet jargon.

[TheOwl]

FACT is trademarked by Bohs fans.

Get your own pointless internet jargon.

It's true it stands for

Forever Acting Common Thugs

Joke Bohs fans before I get lynched :o

[BohsFans]

countys

should be counties :cool:

[joeraki]

Pats have had no designs on moving to Tallaght. For as long as I worked for the SDCC (up until June) No one from Pats where ever in to my knowledge for talks about Tallaght stadium.

None of you will probably believe me but Shels have been in for more talks over that stadium than the GAA. And that's a Fact.

[wws]

Pats have had no designs on moving to Tallaght. For as long as I worked for the SDCC (up until June) No one from Pats where ever in to my knowledge for talks about Tallaght stadium.


pats were waiting til u left......non stop meetings in July and August!

[Dr.Nightdub]

As Dodge said, we've no incentive to leave Richmond at the moment. On a good night the ground is a third full so we've no capacity issues. That's unlikely to change for the foreseeable future.

Personally I've no huge moral difficulty with the notion of groundsharing with Rovers. Our board has told us quite clearly that if some developer made them an offer they couldn't refuse, they'd be willing to talk about leaving Richmond, but would only do so on the basis that an alternative stadium would be ready to move into straight away - i.e. no "interim" renting of Dalymount or anywhere else. You could call it learning the Rovers lesson.

One thing that'd definitely put the brakes on any notion of us moving to Tallaght along with Rovers is that the SDCC have said quite clearly that they view Rovers as their anchor tenants going forward. Not Rovers and Pats. Not Rovers and St.Marks GAA. Not Rovers and any other assorted community sporting thingumyjigs. This all came out around the time they started the process of getting the lease on the stadium back from Branvard or whichever holding company was running Rovers before the 400 Club took over.

Yes, the government could in theory exert huge pressure on the SDCC to expand their thinking to include us as possible tenants as well as Rovers, but in that scenario, I'd imagine the rest of the League would have a collective conniption.

Think about it: we sell Richmond for a humungous wad because of its location. I've no idea of land prices in D8, let's say €20million. We move to Tallaght to share a municapally funded stadium, so incur no building costs. So we end up with a €20million fund for transfers and wages. Champions League and eternal domination of the LoI, here we come. Can't see all the other clubs rolling over and going "Nice bit of business, fair play to youse."

[BohDiddley]

Pats have had no designs on moving to Tallaght. For as long as I worked for the SDCC (up until June) No one from Pats where ever in to my knowledge for talks about Tallaght stadium.

None of you will probably believe me but Shels have been in for more talks over that stadium than the GAA. And that's a Fact.
Actually, that figures.
Ollie and co are on thin ice posturing as a northside club. You don't have to be a historian to know that they belong emphatically south of the river, where Shels had a proud tradition which, of course, government planners, FAI suits, and some with a thin grasp of Dublin psyche and geography, have no regard for.
Their move to Tolka certainly has not brought in droves of supporters. If I were doing their strategic planning, I'd be looking for an identity other than Donabate Dons or Abbotstown Shelbohs.
PS: as for Rovers being some sort of pan-Dublin superclub, YHAL! :D