Dublin unrest after stabbing

[Neish]

Fair enough. Going round in circles so will leave it there.

One of the few occasions we can agree on in this debate

[pineapple stu]

No doctors are being taken from poorer countries they are moving of their free will to seek better quality of life.
I don't really think this hand-washing is good enough. Yes, doctors aren't being put on slave ships. But we're still absolutely helping ourselves to the resources of developing countries - there's very much active recruitment in developing countries for example, so yes, we are taking doctors from developing countries by offering them more money.

We know full well what we're doing to developing countries, and we actively encourage it - we still look on developing countries in the same way the colonialists did. Maybe you'd argue colonialism wasn't racist? The raw materials wanted to move for a better quality of life?

You seem quite happy with a system which causes thousands of deaths a year in developing countries for example (whereas I think it's abhorrent). You repeat the idea that they're leaving for a better quality of life without actually considering the paradox that they're causing the worse quality of life they're leaving. That is, because we take doctors from poorer countries, people die for lack of basic healthcare, so they want to leave. (And this applies across the entire economy, not just healthcare of course. In football terms, look at the awful state of African club football despite the huge amount of world class African players - we just take from them to get rich ourselves and leave them with nothing.). Developing countries are stuck in a rut as a result. Which, again, you don't seem to care about.

One of the problems with your view is that you value the individual above the society. You don't care at all about how developing economies can improve - and that's your racism.


Is that what you're saying everybody should stay in their own country no matter how corrupt, tyrannical etc the governing bodies are there, regardless if there is destitute poverty, war etc?
You would actually get a far more equal, diverse, sustainable and fair society if people did that. Is that not what you want? Though maybe you object to poor people having access to healthcare; I don't know


Yes this has been the way of the world since the industrial revolution, back then migration was mostly domestic but it been international since the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
Domestic migration - people moving from farms to cities - is much less of an issue. Both sides benefitted from that - fewer people made more food, so people were freed up to go into the cities and make machinery which helped make more food. Some did better than others, sure, but ultimately everyone benefitted; it was ultimately all part of the one society. That's not the case with modern mass migration.

International migration since the late 19th century has been very narrow in focus - there was really none to speak of in Europe until the second half of the 20th century, and even then it was negligble until the late 90s or so. It is fairly plain to see that what's happened in the last 25 years is way out of kilter with anything that's happened beforehand. A very quick look at surnames across Europe will confirm you're wrong on this. And even then, emigration from Ireland is what ketp us poor for decades until we reversed the trend - but you seem happy to keep developing countries poor by taking their people.


Carbon footprint? Careful now you could be accused of a liberal mindset by bringing carbon footprint into a debate
Again, completely inability or willingness to discuss a point. Modern mass immigration is very carbon intensive, at a time when we urgently need to cut back on carbon emissions. And there is literally nothing more important than cutting back on carbon emissions right now.

[John83]

So, what do you propose doing about the flood of Irish trained medical staff recruited to work in Australia and elsewhere? Seal the border? Force those people to surrender their passports to the university on acceptance into a medical degree? Send a sternly worded letter to Australia? Maybe we just do without and go back to Victorian doctor-patient ratios. It never did any of those doctors any harm. Didn't do their patients any good either. And whatever measures you propose we implement, why can't your victimised developing country do the same? Do they have no agency?

Your argument about flights from emigrants is hogwash too, though at least we'll have clean pigs. You're taking the externalisation of a cost - the long term cost to humanity of the pollution from flights - and instead of arguing that it should be factored into a ticket via a carbon tax (which I could respect), you're putting it on immigration policy. That says more about your priorities than you realise. It's like arguing that cars pollute, and people drive to work, so we should ban work. I say force everyone to find a job, spouse, and house within a day's walk of where they were born. It was good enough for our great grandparents, and their cousins, and their spouses, but I repeat myself.

[Neish]

I don't really think this hand-washing is good enough. Yes, doctors aren't being put on slave ships. But we're still absolutely helping ourselves to the resources of developing countries - there's very much active recruitment in developing countries for example, so yes, we are taking doctors from developing countries by offering them more money.

We know full well what we're doing to developing countries, and we actively encourage it - we still look on developing countries in the same way the colonialists did. Maybe you'd argue colonialism wasn't racist? The raw materials wanted to move for a better quality of life?

You seem quite happy with a system which causes thousands of deaths a year in developing countries for example (whereas I think it's abhorrent). You repeat the idea that they're leaving for a better quality of life without actually considering the paradox that they're causing the worse quality of life they're leaving. That is, because we take doctors from poorer countries, people die for lack of basic healthcare, so they want to leave. (And this applies across the entire economy, not just healthcare of course. In football terms, look at the awful state of African club football despite the huge amount of world class African players - we just take from them to get rich ourselves and leave them with nothing.). Developing countries are stuck in a rut as a result. Which, again, you don't seem to care about.

One of the problems with your view is that you value the individual above the society. You don't care at all about how developing economies can improve - and that's your racism.


You would actually get a far more equal, diverse, sustainable and fair society if people did that. Is that not what you want? Though maybe you object to poor people having access to healthcare; I don't know


Domestic migration - people moving from farms to cities - is much less of an issue. Both sides benefitted from that - fewer people made more food, so people were freed up to go into the cities and make machinery which helped make more food. Some did better than others, sure, but ultimately everyone benefitted; it was ultimately all part of the one society. That's not the case with modern mass migration.

International migration since the late 19th century has been very narrow in focus - there was really none to speak of in Europe until the second half of the 20th century, and even then it was negligble until the late 90s or so. It is fairly plain to see that what's happened in the last 25 years is way out of kilter with anything that's happened beforehand. A very quick look at surnames across Europe will confirm you're wrong on this. And even then, emigration from Ireland is what ketp us poor for decades until we reversed the trend - but you seem happy to keep developing countries poor by taking their people.


Again, completely inability or willingness to discuss a point. Modern mass immigration is very carbon intensive, at a time when we urgently need to cut back on carbon emissions. And there is literally nothing more important than cutting back on carbon emissions right now.

Give it a rest will you, myself a SkStu have agreed to disagree & leave it at that. But you come back with what imo is absolute drivel and I'm sure you of a similar view on my opinion. I'm not taking you on about anything you posted above cause it the exact same as you or stu already posted nothing new. Been there done that in this thread already

[Nesta99]

The level of recruitment of doctors from abroad is significant but nowhere near what is being suggested. Go to any British or Irish hospital and there will be a majority of Irish medics. There has always been a culture of travel in that profession for the purposes of training. Most of the immigrant doctors encountered will be junior or resistrars. A lot less well be consultants as tbh most return home, for the same reason than many Irish eventually return home to settle. Its different among the nursing profession in terms of immigrant retention and that is due to pay and conditions. Dont automatically assume that because the INMO rattle on about being overworked and underpad that that is absolutely the case, there are surges and physical capacity issues but Iirsh staff are competatively paid, not in coparison to Dubai, not always in Austrailia when cost of living is factored, lifestyle is a huge draw. The lower Irish incomes are with newly qualifieds (still not bad for a 1st job) and those who dont or wont further training. Specialising isnt tough, is widely available and is well paid. Everyone could do with more money and have less to do but that is a far cry from over worked and under paid. I challange anyone who is visiting hospital or unfortunate enough to have to stay and watch for regular corridor chit chats, extended breaks etc. It doesnt happen in private practice or when there is a genuinely busy ward or department. Everyone is experiencing a curnch on cost of living currently, nursing staff are permanently whinging and have talked themselves in to sub par performance in some cases. There is a vocational element to a career in a health service, you dont sign up to get rich!!

[pineapple stu]

]So, what do you propose doing about the flood of Irish trained medical staff recruited to work in Australia and elsewhere
This is just deflection. I don't really have a solution for peace in the Middle East either. Does this mean I can't flag Israeli genocide?


Your argument about flights from emigrants is hogwash too, though at least we'll have clean pigs. You're taking the externalisation of a cost - the long term cost to humanity of the pollution from flights - and instead of arguing that it should be factored into a ticket via a carbon tax (which I could respect), you're putting it on immigration policy.
Nope. I'm saying a sustainable society shouldn't have at its core an increasing number of people who generate more than a year's worth of carbon emissions visiting relatives. Simple as that. This isn't long-term stuff either. This is pretty major stuff that could happen in our lifetimes (https://www.livescience.com/planet-earth/climate-change/key-atlantic-current-could-start-collapsing-as-early-as-2055-new-study-finds).

It's nothing at all like your cars example. There's electric cars (cleaner, if not perfect), car pooling, public transport, cycling. The Government is coming under pressure to address emissions from cars by 2030 (which it's doing, albeit badly), but not from air travel. So there's lots of differences. (I don't mind carbon taxes, although they're overrated. A carbon flight budget would be more useful, if probably impractical. Similar to how penalty points are now effective than speeding fines)

You can get offended by this all you want, but like with Neish, I see even genuine engagement with this, and with the thousands of people dying in developing countries for want of medical staff, are absent from your post.

[SkStu]

It is such a tough subject to try and talk about because sharing an honest opinion seems to carry a lot of risk no matter where you fall in the spectrum.

The bottom line for me is I think all sides of this are being let down by the lack of urgency across all political parties on fixing/debating our immigration policy and the effects of it on those entering and the citizens of the country. Debate about our immigration policy and practices are avoided like the plague. At the highest level, whatever the intended outcomes are, it cant be seen to be "working". Basic services like housing, health and education don't seem able to support our populations needs and adding more and more cant be part of the answer to that. The increase in crime is secondary from my perspective.

The reactions - visible and invisible - from Irish citizens are understandable (the accompanying actions are often not). We didn't have this level of viciousness until quite recently - and that is despite the major influx of immigrants in the early 00's - Africans, eastern Europeans, Asians - which is when it should have started if this was a racist thing. Personally, I think it oversimplifies the issue to brand all reactions as "racist" which seems to happen directly and indirectly. I don't think it is helpful. There is an element of racism at play for some idiots - definitely - but for the most part, it seems more a reaction to something that is just not working.

I'm pro-immigration by default but I also believe it has to be done responsibly and I am having a hard time identifying the responsibility in any of what is going on over the last 5 or so years. When I've been back a few times over the last couple of years, I've occasionally heard equally hostile comments about immigrants of all colours and nationalities who are seen to take advantage of the system and offer nothing to our society or way of life in return. The quantity of these comments seem to have grown in that same two year period. It seems that more and more fairly reasonable and tolerant people are becoming more and more frustrated by the situation.

The thugs who show up to riot and vandalise everything provide great cover to politicians to avoid confronting the issues head on, discussing the causes honestly and proposing workable solutions. Our political parties are doing a massive disservice to citizens, asylum seekers / refugees and legal immigrants / future immigrants. The question is whether it is too late to do anything about it now.


not sure if that is necessarily a direct response to my post but I will respond to this anyway to show where i align and where i think there is a bit of a counter-position that is fair and reasonable. I'd love to know if you think that immigration in Ireland has been a success / is working?



100% agree. I would go so far as to say, I think that anyone who is a guest of this country that commits this kind of crime (or something like the stabbing of the Ukrainian teen in the IPAS centre) should be deported.



First, I think the church abuse scandal is a bit of a red herring. The country was very different place when a lot of these crimes were committed and communities were controlled by the RC Church. Thank goodness this has changed and there is a right to protest at things that shouldn't happen. As soon as it became safe to do so, the ugly issues all surfaced and the protests happened in the best way possible in terms of effect. People stopped turning up every Sunday to listen to bunch of a hypocrites. I do agree though that there is bad and good across humanity.



I think the far/hard right have actually made the situation far worse because they have given an easy pass to avoid a discussion on immigration. "Ah sure its just a bunch of racists, everythings great". Everything is not great, far from it, and the system is under massive stress which in turn puts ordinary decent people under massive stress and no real means to voice it. In some cases the stress and fear turn to blame and then violence. In some cases the blame and violence exists because there is a sizable number of actual racists attaching themselves to the "cause" but, in parallel with that, I also think it is a fair (non-racist) opinion to hold that our services simply cannot tolerate the population growth over the last 5-10 years when it couldnt really support the population last time I was fully availing of the same services.



Agreed. Statistics also show that immigrants are disproportionately represented in prisons/crimes. I put a lot of that down to their circumstances. Im an immigrant myself and i know many immigrants through my wifes family here and my connections back home (with poor english) and you can quickly see how things like depression, low job prospects, boredom, substance abuse can trigger that. All the more reason for a sober look at how we "do" immigration. Rather than accept or excuse/ignore the crime, maybe we should determine what annual population growth we are comfortable with and how we can support immigration and all immigrants as part of that? Like I said, i think we have a responsibility to do this in a way that serves all impacted groups fairly and positively.



No. But you self-police a bit as part of everyday life, dont you? Theres parts of cities that you avoid or avoid at certain times. Theres groups that you might cross the road to avoid if you see them gathered. You probably fear those groups you mention because you dont know who they are, you dont have confidence in the government to have vetted them, you might be victim to some of the petty crime that they are engaged in due to the reasons i listed above. I remember the NIMBY uproar when travellers would move into the field down the road or next door. Its no different. Some of the things I saw then dont bear repeating but i will say that the fears were founded in some cases. A lot of very decent folk but put them in the wrong situation or environment and it could change really quickly.



When you see the riots last night and a couple of years ago, it is clear that the scummy and racist elements attach themelves to it - in a way that unfortunately shifts the dialogue away from where there is real and legitimate concerns that should be talked about. I have a lot of sympathy for the immigrants who are in these centres and the fear they must feel in those situations and i dont think its right that many of them have been there for years with nothing to do. Thats not their fault, that is our collective fault. For me, the bottom line is about the services like housing, healthcare, education. The basics. I would accept the immigration policy as it is today but only with a corresponding increase in taxes to fund enhanced social services and address the long standing issues around property ownership and housing.

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2025/11/26/jim-ocallaghan-says-new-migration-restrictions-aimed-at-cutting-irelands-population-growth-rate/

finally, the politicians involved in this debacle seeing the light and the logic.

[SkStu]

This is just deflection. I don't really have a solution for peace in the Middle East either. Does this mean I can't flag Israeli genocide?


Nope. I'm saying a sustainable society shouldn't have at its core an increasing number of people who generate more than a year's worth of carbon emissions visiting relatives. Simple as that. This isn't long-term stuff either. This is pretty major stuff that could happen in our lifetimes (https://www.livescience.com/planet-earth/climate-change/key-atlantic-current-could-start-collapsing-as-early-as-2055-new-study-finds).

It's nothing at all like your cars example. There's electric cars (cleaner, if not perfect), car pooling, public transport, cycling. The Government is coming under pressure to address emissions from cars by 2030 (which it's doing, albeit badly), but not from air travel. So there's lots of differences. (I don't mind carbon taxes, although they're overrated. A carbon flight budget would be more useful, if probably impractical. Similar to how penalty points are now effective than speeding fines)

You can get offended by this all you want, but like with Neish, I see even genuine engagement with this, and with the thousands of people dying in developing countries for want of medical staff, are absent from your post.

Found this article on RTE interesting in light of your posts on the impacts of emigration on the fortunes of the nations losing people.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2025/1205/1547356-returning-nigerians-countering-emigration-brain-drain/

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, it's a decent article alright. You'll see that quite a lot in the developing world. There was a feature in National Geographic a couple of years ago where the Kosovo President was saying more or less the same thing. Simon Reeve's travel documentaries will flag it too (I think he said developing countries could be "angry" at the developed world for impeding their development at one stage - possibly somewhere in the Central America shows). Or Michael Portillo going around the IT firms in Bengalaru, and the firms saying that the biggest problem they have is that if they do too well, an American company will head-hunt their key staff and they're screwed.

And that pull is always in one direction. The developed world gives nothing back (well, maybe strings-attached aid packages). But we don't care.

And again, that's before you look at the carbon footprint of emigration. It amazes me how long we've been talking about a climate crisis and yet there's not been a single attempt that I recall to educate people on their individual carbon footprint, or what makes up a carbon footprint, or what the various 2030/2050 targets mean for us. And maybe it shouldn't amaze me - we don't care, after all. Yet countries like Iceland (https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/cop/iceland-sees-security-risk-existential-threat-atlantic-ocean-currents-possible-2025-11-12/) and Tuvalu (https://theweek.com/environment/tuvalu-climate-change-evacuate-rising-sea-levels) are declaring existential climate-related threats. Wiping countries off the map is a pretty big thing to not care about, I think. (And I say that as someone whose own carbon footprint is too high, albeit reducing)

If we spent as much time on this as we do lecturing people about what pronouns to use, we could make a dent in things. But...