Dublin unrest after stabbing [Archive]

passinginterest

22/10/2025, 11:06 AM

I listened to the Today FM News yesterday which was an invitation to riot for some. It stated that the Garda had arrested a foreign national who was under a deportation order in connection with the alleged attempted rape. Why so much detail? A man has been arrested would have been sufficient.

I was listening to some of the reports on radio Nova when the news was breaking and they came with warnings of "false narratives circulating on social media". So while it probably seemed a lot of information, it was most likely an attempt at calming what was already inevitable. There's an element of society, still a smaller minority, but growing, who just want an excuse for violence and racism. I don't believe that the majority really care at all about the victim in this case, or violence against women and children in general. There's a huge issue for society to try and solve, to close the growing gap to this element who themselves feel let down by Government and society, by the poverty gap etc. There doesn't seem to be an easy solution. It's one I find hard to discuss because there's so little logic or humanism in the hate. The solution is probably in wrap around social services, mental health, education, integration, etc. but it's so hard to see how we get there at the moment. The US politics discussions showed just how polarised things can become and how it's becoming close to impossible to have an honest, open, logical conversation about it. It makes it harder when you start to see friends or family getting pulled more into the hate cycle. I don't even really know what I'm trying to say, other than it's awful what happened to that child, it's awful to see Gardaí being violently attacked in response, it's awful to see racism and hate being given a greater voice, and the worst of all is it seems to be only getting worse for the foreseeable future.

SkStu

22/10/2025, 4:17 PM

It is such a tough subject to try and talk about because sharing an honest opinion seems to carry a lot of risk no matter where you fall in the spectrum.

The bottom line for me is I think all sides of this are being let down by the lack of urgency across all political parties on fixing/debating our immigration policy and the effects of it on those entering and the citizens of the country. Debate about our immigration policy and practices are avoided like the plague. At the highest level, whatever the intended outcomes are, it cant be seen to be "working". Basic services like housing, health and education don't seem able to support our populations needs and adding more and more cant be part of the answer to that. The increase in crime is secondary from my perspective.

The reactions - visible and invisible - from Irish citizens are understandable (the accompanying actions are often not). We didn't have this level of viciousness until quite recently - and that is despite the major influx of immigrants in the early 00's - Africans, eastern Europeans, Asians - which is when it should have started if this was a racist thing. Personally, I think it oversimplifies the issue to brand all reactions as "racist" which seems to happen directly and indirectly. I don't think it is helpful. There is an element of racism at play for some idiots - definitely - but for the most part, it seems more a reaction to something that is just not working.

I'm pro-immigration by default but I also believe it has to be done responsibly and I am having a hard time identifying the responsibility in any of what is going on over the last 5 or so years. When I've been back a few times over the last couple of years, I've occasionally heard equally hostile comments about immigrants of all colours and nationalities who are seen to take advantage of the system and offer nothing to our society or way of life in return. The quantity of these comments seem to have grown in that same two year period. It seems that more and more fairly reasonable and tolerant people are becoming more and more frustrated by the situation.

The thugs who show up to riot and vandalise everything provide great cover to politicians to avoid confronting the issues head on, discussing the causes honestly and proposing workable solutions. Our political parties are doing a massive disservice to citizens, asylum seekers / refugees and legal immigrants / future immigrants. The question is whether it is too late to do anything about it now.

Neish

22/10/2025, 5:37 PM

The crime is the issue and in this case its a particularly appalling crime , the accused should face the full wrath of the law, not vigilante intimidation and violence

Its really irrelevant what the religion, nationality, ethnicity etc of the accused, there is good and bad in all sections of humanity. Where were these so called concerned citizens when members of various religious orders were committing same and much worse crimes for many decades in this country, why weren't they protesting outside churches and HQ of religious orders?

Such incidents like in City west last night and the one that started this tread back in 2023 are the result hard and far & hard right individuals praying on the gullible and whipping up hate by praying of fear. Some of the more mainstream political figures are at fault for acceding to such individuals and more or less completely unfounded fears

All stats show the vast majority of sexual assaults are committed by someone know to the victim

As for all this chat of un-vetted foreign males is pure nonsense. Do you know the criminal history of someone everyone in the vicinity when your in a shop, sport event, cinema, church etc? If you don't fear going to such crowds why do you fear a group from an IPA centre etc?

Am I saying there is no bad elements in said groups of course not but this so called "concern" is rooted in hate, ignorance and gullibility

the 12 th man

22/10/2025, 6:16 PM

SkStu

22/10/2025, 6:23 PM

not sure if that is necessarily a direct response to my post but I will respond to this anyway to show where i align and where i think there is a bit of a counter-position that is fair and reasonable. I'd love to know if you think that immigration in Ireland has been a success / is working?

The crime is the issue and in this case its a particularly appalling crime , the accused should face the full wrath of the law, not vigilante intimidation and violence

100% agree. I would go so far as to say, I think that anyone who is a guest of this country that commits this kind of crime (or something like the stabbing of the Ukrainian teen in the IPAS centre) should be deported.

Its really irrelevant what the religion, nationality, ethnicity etc of the accused, there is good and bad in all sections of humanity. Where were these so called concerned citizens when members of various religious orders were committing same and much worse crimes for many decades in this country, why weren't they protesting outside churches and HQ of religious orders?

First, I think the church abuse scandal is a bit of a red herring. The country was very different place when a lot of these crimes were committed and communities were controlled by the RC Church. Thank goodness this has changed and there is a right to protest at things that shouldn't happen. As soon as it became safe to do so, the ugly issues all surfaced and the protests happened in the best way possible in terms of effect. People stopped turning up every Sunday to listen to bunch of a hypocrites. I do agree though that there is bad and good across humanity.

Such incidents like in City west last night and the one that started this tread back in 2023 are the result hard and far & hard right individuals praying on the gullible and whipping up hate by praying of fear. Some of the more mainstream political figures are at fault for acceding to such individuals and more or less completely unfounded fears

I think the far/hard right have actually made the situation far worse because they have given an easy pass to avoid a discussion on immigration. "Ah sure its just a bunch of racists, everythings great". Everything is not great, far from it, and the system is under massive stress which in turn puts ordinary decent people under massive stress and no real means to voice it. In some cases the stress and fear turn to blame and then violence. In some cases the blame and violence exists because there is a sizable number of actual racists attaching themselves to the "cause" but, in parallel with that, I also think it is a fair (non-racist) opinion to hold that our services simply cannot tolerate the population growth over the last 5-10 years when it couldnt really support the population last time I was fully availing of the same services.

All stats show the vast majority of sexual assaults are committed by someone know to the victim

Agreed. Statistics also show that immigrants are disproportionately represented in prisons/crimes. I put a lot of that down to their circumstances. Im an immigrant myself and i know many immigrants through my wifes family here and my connections back home (with poor english) and you can quickly see how things like depression, low job prospects, boredom, substance abuse can trigger that. All the more reason for a sober look at how we "do" immigration. Rather than accept or excuse/ignore the crime, maybe we should determine what annual population growth we are comfortable with and how we can support immigration and all immigrants as part of that? Like I said, i think we have a responsibility to do this in a way that serves all impacted groups fairly and positively.

As for all this chat of un-vetted foreign males is pure nonsense. Do you know the criminal history of someone everyone in the vicinity when your in a shop, sport event, cinema, church etc? If you don't fear going to such crowds why do you fear a group from an IPA centre etc?

No. But you self-police a bit as part of everyday life, dont you? Theres parts of cities that you avoid or avoid at certain times. Theres groups that you might cross the road to avoid if you see them gathered. You probably fear those groups you mention because you dont know who they are, you dont have confidence in the government to have vetted them, you might be victim to some of the petty crime that they are engaged in due to the reasons i listed above. I remember the NIMBY uproar when travellers would move into the field down the road or next door. Its no different. Some of the things I saw then dont bear repeating but i will say that the fears were founded in some cases. A lot of very decent folk but put them in the wrong situation or environment and it could change really quickly.

Am I saying there is no bad elements in said groups of course not but this so called "concern" is rooted in hate, ignorance and gullibility

When you see the riots last night and a couple of years ago, it is clear that the scummy and racist elements attach themelves to it - in a way that unfortunately shifts the dialogue away from where there is real and legitimate concerns that should be talked about. I have a lot of sympathy for the immigrants who are in these centres and the fear they must feel in those situations and i dont think its right that many of them have been there for years with nothing to do. Thats not their fault, that is our collective fault. For me, the bottom line is about the services like housing, healthcare, education. The basics. I would accept the immigration policy as it is today but only with a corresponding increase in taxes to fund enhanced social services and address the long standing issues around property ownership and housing.

osarusan

22/10/2025, 7:04 PM

The thing I found most striking from all this is that the man alleged of the offence was served a deportation order some time ago, but just stayed in the country.

If nothing else, that's something that needs to be remedied, and would go a fair way to neutralise some of the arguments being made.

Razors left peg

22/10/2025, 7:53 PM

not sure if that is necessarily a direct response to my post but I will respond to this anyway to show where i align and where i think there is a bit of a counter-position that is fair and reasonable. I'd love to know if you think that immigration in Ireland has been a success / is working?

100% agree. I would go so far as to say, I think that anyone who is a guest of this country that commits this kind of crime (or something like the stabbing of the Ukrainian teen in the IPAS centre) should be deported.

First, I think the church abuse scandal is a bit of a red herring. The country was very different place when a lot of these crimes were committed and communities were controlled by the RC Church. Thank goodness this has changed and there is a right to protest at things that shouldn't happen. As soon as it became safe to do so, the ugly issues all surfaced and the protests happened in the best way possible in terms of effect. People stopped turning up every Sunday to listen to bunch of a hypocrites. I do agree though that there is bad and good across humanity.

I think the far/hard right have actually made the situation far worse because they have given an easy pass to avoid a discussion on immigration. "Ah sure its just a bunch of racists, everythings great". Everything is not great, far from it, and the system is under massive stress which in turn puts ordinary decent people under massive stress and no real means to voice it. In some cases the stress and fear turn to blame and then violence. In some cases the blame and violence exists because there is a sizable number of actual racists attaching themselves to the "cause" but, in parallel with that, I also think it is a fair (non-racist) opinion to hold that our services simply cannot tolerate the population growth over the last 5-10 years when it couldnt really support the population last time I was fully availing of the same services.

Agreed. Statistics also show that immigrants are disproportionately represented in prisons/crimes. I put a lot of that down to their circumstances. Im an immigrant myself and i know many immigrants through my wifes family here and my connections back home (with poor english) and you can quickly see how things like depression, low job prospects, boredom, substance abuse can trigger that. All the more reason for a sober look at how we "do" immigration. Rather than accept or excuse/ignore the crime, maybe we should determine what annual population growth we are comfortable with and how we can support immigration and all immigrants as part of that? Like I said, i think we have a responsibility to do this in a way that serves all impacted groups fairly and positively.

No. But you self-police a bit as part of everyday life, dont you? Theres parts of cities that you avoid or avoid at certain times. Theres groups that you might cross the road to avoid if you see them gathered. You probably fear those groups you mention because you dont know who they are, you dont have confidence in the government to have vetted them, you might be victim to some of the petty crime that they are engaged in due to the reasons i listed above. I remember the NIMBY uproar when travellers would move into the field down the road or next door. Its no different. Some of the things I saw then dont bear repeating but i will say that the fears were founded in some cases. A lot of very decent folk but put them in the wrong situation or environment and it could change really quickly.

When you see the riots last night and a couple of years ago, it is clear that the scummy and racist elements attach themelves to it - in a way that unfortunately shifts the dialogue away from where there is real and legitimate concerns that should be talked about. I have a lot of sympathy for the immigrants who are in these centres and the fear they must feel in those situations and i dont think its right that many of them have been there for years with nothing to do. Thats not their fault, that is our collective fault. For me, the bottom line is about the services like housing, healthcare, education. The basics. I would accept the immigration policy as it is today but only with a corresponding increase in taxes to fund enhanced social services and address the long standing issues around property ownership and housing.

Ah you're just a massive racist Stu......

Joking, very good post!

Neish

29/10/2025, 7:47 AM

I'd love to know if you think that immigration in Ireland has been a success / is working?

Yes its working go into any hospital or just about any other business and you'll see evidence of it

First, I think the church abuse scandal is a bit of a red herring. The country was very different place when a lot of these crimes were committed and communities were controlled by the RC Church. Thank goodness this has changed and there is a right to protest at things that shouldn't happen. As soon as it became safe to do so, the ugly issues all surfaced and the protests happened in the best way possible in terms of effect. People stopped turning up every Sunday to listen to bunch of a hypocrites. I do agree though that there is bad and good across humanity.

Different country or not its still the same crime and I'd also argue these cases are still occurring to the present day so no I don't take your point here [/QUOTE]

No. But you self-police a bit as part of everyday life, dont you? Theres parts of cities that you avoid or avoid at certain times. Theres groups that you might cross the road to avoid if you see them gathered. You probably fear those groups you mention because you dont know who they are, you dont have confidence in the government to have vetted them, you might be victim to some of the petty crime that they are engaged in due to the reasons i listed above. I remember the NIMBY uproar when travellers would move into the field down the road or next door. Its no different. Some of the things I saw then dont bear repeating but i will say that the fears were founded in some cases. A lot of very decent folk but put them in the wrong situation or environment and it could change really quickly.

No I don't self police every day. Or really ever the only situation is occasionally in my line of work (retail) you get to notice certain signs and behavior of people to watch but its has nothing to do with race, ethnicity etc. As for "area you avoid" these existed long, long before the most recent increase of immigration so no again I don't take your point here

Finally forgive the delay in replying I havn't been able to access foot.ie since lse weekend for some reason.

Neish

29/10/2025, 7:53 AM

So you would you have no problem with 3000 foreign men parachuted in next door to you?,and I mean literally on your doorstep,just wondering.(Not excusing the scrotes last night btw)

No I wouldn't.
In my less than 10 minute walk to work there is 3 different buildings housing IPA residents (part of a hotel, a guesthouse and a disused apartment building) the hotel and guest house accommodate Ukrainians whilst the apartment block houses east Africans, Mix of men women and children in all and the town has had no issues what so ever with them, many involved in local community project, see some at Finn Harp games etc.

I also ask you where were 3000 men parachuted in?

the 12 th man

29/10/2025, 9:00 AM

No I wouldn't.
In my less than 10 minute walk to work there is 3 different buildings housing IPA residents (part of a hotel, a guesthouse and a disused apartment building) the hotel and guest house accommodate Ukrainians whilst the apartment block houses east Africans, Mix of men women and children in all and the town has had no issues what so ever with them, many involved in local community project, see some at Finn Harp games etc.

I also ask you where were 3000 men parachuted in?

Citw West Hotel,St Brigids Nursing Home Crooksling,Kilbride Army camp and Avon Ri Leisure centre all in the same catchment area,the village of Saggart is destroyed with guys hanging around all day drinking cans with nothing to do.

Huge amount of them are men.

Neish

29/10/2025, 5:46 PM

Citw West Hotel,St Brigids Nursing Home Crooksling,Kilbride Army camp and Avon Ri Leisure centre all in the same catchment area,the village of Saggart is destroyed with guys hanging around all day drinking cans with nothing to do.

Huge amount of them are men.

So you go from 3000 men parachuted next door to a huge amount are men in several different locations(in the same catchment area) with no actual figures.
As for handing round drinking can etc. That what I see when I heading to or leaving busaras, more or less every time for the last 20-30 years and very few of them foreign

This is exactly what I talking about exaggeration of numbers and slandering non Irish with stuff locals have been doing for decades

Eminence Grise

29/10/2025, 7:51 PM

Funny how nobody seems to ask how many of males of military age with criminal records sponging off the state are outside the centres protesting...

pineapple stu

29/10/2025, 8:32 PM

Yes its working go into any hospital or just about any other business and you'll see evidence of it
I'm always a bit uncomfortable with people justifying immigration on the basis of labour matters. The fact is that taking doctors from developing countries places a big strain on healthcare there. Here's a Guardian article from 2015 (https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2015/feb/10/uganda-crippled-medical-brain-drain-doctors) noting the strain on the entire of sub-Saharan Africa for example - 77% of Liberian-trained doctors are now working in the US, 75% of Ugandan-trained doctors, and so on. As a direct result of that, there's still large-scale child birth deaths for example. You could find a similar handicap in foreign IT industries I'm sure (I know a big problem in India is that any decent tech company has an almost certainly losing fight to stop key staff moving to jobs in the US, etc)

The west, of course, has always looked to the developing world for what it lacks - spices, metals, now labour. It's a form of systemic racism in my view, though God knows people will deny it to the hilt I'm sure.

And that's before we look at the problems of mass emigration in a climate crisis - the idea that a rapidly-increasing number of people generate an entire year's worth of carbon just by visiting their relatives once a year. Flying is one of the fastest-growing major sources of carbon, and I'd say emigration is the biggest sub-driver of that. Is that really acceptable?

jbyrne

29/10/2025, 8:54 PM

And that's before we look at the problems of mass emigration in a climate crisis - the idea that a rapidly-increasing number of people generate an entire year's worth of carbon just by visiting their relatives once a year. Flying is one of the fastest-growing major sources of carbon, and I'd say emigration is the biggest sub-driver of that. Is that really acceptable?

tip of the iceberg though in comparison to first world people and their multiple holiday flights every year

pineapple stu

29/10/2025, 11:40 PM

Well, yes and no.

Dublin to Barcelona return (say) is about 700kg of CO2e. Dublin-Lanzarote return is about 1,000kg. Dublin to Bangalore return (changing in Dubai) is about 3 tonnes. Dublin to Sydney return (changing in Singapore) is about 7 tonnes. We need to be getting to 4 tonnes per person per year by the end of the decade, and reducing further after that.

So I don't think it's tip of the iceberg stuff. Yes, first world holidays probably add up to more, but mass emigration is increasing quicker and has the potential to do a lot more damage. 90% of the world don't fly in any given year - so the idea of recruiting people largely from that cohort of people and moving them to where they're now going to be generating huge carbon footprints has to be bad.

Certainly both are bad and we should be trying to reduce them - hence why I'd suggest the sort of emigration we're seeing now has no place in a sustainable society. Among other things of course.

And of course, holidays at least drive tourist economies, whereas modern emigration just drives deeper inequalities. But nobody cares about that, because (in the case of foreign doctors for example) rich lives are worth more than poor lives.

Nesta99

30/10/2025, 1:19 AM

There is a cyclical nature to healthcare workers social mobility. Irish go to Oz and people fill the gap from other nations. The majority of Irish return eventually which is not the case for the English for example. Its not all economics driven, young people want to travel and then want to go home. Many return after exeriencing the far away fields are freen thing especially if they went to New Zealand. Whereever staff are coming from they are leaving another system, it has always been that way and it does damage those services. But why be a doctor on a few hundred dollars in subsaharan africa when you can be on thousands of Euro. One way to manage things a bit better is to pay for healthcare training in full but the student signs a contract with the HSE to work for say 5 years or they must buy out the contract, a bursary system. We should look at sending young medic students to train in other systems when our own cant train enough even if that mean african systems - they could deliver courses in English like they do in some Dutch and Polish schools. Healthcare workers are a valuable and finite resource and rightly or wrongly each service provder has a me fein attitude. But we should broaden training in to these places in an offset way. Invaluable experience to treat people without all the whistle and bells equipment at hand in the HSE, clinical diagnostic skills using good old fashioned differential diagnosis rather than pop 'em in a scanner with a form of AI flagging anmolies.

Need to moe entire families of course. We need to drop the overworked and underpaid manatra as many people are sloppy at what they do becsuse their feel disillusioned when they are certainly not overworked and when comparing pay looking at similar sized services and not Dubai or even Oz as a benchmark. People who go to places like NZ are disappointed, not even the weather to compenstate for the rates of pay.

I will tell a story of 3 nurses on one 5 day ward, when on duty, one heads out up the the town of Drogheda to do shopping, pick up kids from school etc. The return and the 2nd nurse hits the town, and finally the third one rund here errands. Every week this happens because they feel over worked and under paid, justifying poor performance. I suggested that they werent overworked if they coul manage everything with 2 nurses to much anger and annoyance. Hospital tried to get staff to rotate to prevent deskilling, working in other disciplines and departmesnt etc to keep things interesting for staff, keep broad skillsets valid etc. But didnt happen as the nurses got their Union involved on claims of changing work practices so the cliques are left alone and continue with subpar perfromance, doing as little possible, losing key skills in use them or lose them. Reject as much as possible training sessions, seen as chores and fear they might be asked to do something extra after training. Even when it comes to introducing early warning score charts in patient files it is not known how to use then as the training has been dodged and this has resulted directly in 2 unnecessary deathssice and many left with life changing injuries,

Its messy but fixible. Just tkes a manager willing to upset a few people and not care and slowly move staff on to hospitals where they will get a serious culture shock where staff actiually do what they are asked. A large number of nurses being roatated to different hospitals would result in dramatically more efficient services for the regional laggards!

Neish

30/10/2025, 6:28 AM

Funny how nobody seems to ask how many of males of military age with criminal records sponging off the state are outside the centres protesting...

What I've been say for a long time

Neish

30/10/2025, 6:31 AM

I'm always a bit uncomfortable with people justifying immigration on the basis of labour matters. The fact is that taking doctors from developing countries places a big strain on healthcare there. Here's a Guardian article from 2015 (https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2015/feb/10/uganda-crippled-medical-brain-drain-doctors) noting the strain on the entire of sub-Saharan Africa for example - 77% of Liberian-trained doctors are now working in the US, 75% of Ugandan-trained doctors, and so on. As a direct result of that, there's still large-scale child birth deaths for example. You could find a similar handicap in foreign IT industries I'm sure (I know a big problem in India is that any decent tech company has an almost certainly losing fight to stop key staff moving to jobs in the US, etc)

There is need for foreign labour in our healthcare due to the fact many of our best qualified in helthcare are out foreign earning better maoney

pineapple stu

30/10/2025, 8:22 AM

I mean, that didn't really attempt to address the issues of systemic racism and carbon emissions that I raised, so I'm not sure how to answer that other than to, you know, flag the issues of systemic racism and high carbon emissions that you seem to welcome.

SkStu

30/10/2025, 12:13 PM

Yes its working go into any hospital or just about any other business and you'll see evidence of it

Different country or not its still the same crime and I'd also argue these cases are still occurring to the present day so no I don't take your point here

No I don't self police every day. Or really ever the only situation is occasionally in my line of work (retail) you get to notice certain signs and behavior of people to watch but its has nothing to do with race, ethnicity etc. As for "area you avoid" these existed long, long before the most recent increase of immigration so no again I don't take your point here

Finally forgive the delay in replying I havn't been able to access foot.ie since lse weekend for some reason.

I thought I put together a pretty balanced and fair post. It’s hard to debate you on a point where you just decide that you think that the RC church abuses that plagued our country for decades is still happening - without offering any evidence. Tough to know where to go with that one. I think you’re twisting my point about self policing. I’m not saying people do it because of race, I’m just saying it’s human nature to be wary of the situations you put yourself in and you tend to avoid situations or groups that look potentially troublesome.

Neish

30/10/2025, 10:08 PM

I thought I put together a pretty balanced and fair post. It’s hard to debate you on a point where you just decide that you think that the RC church abuses that plagued our country for decades is still happening - without offering any evidence. Tough to know where to go with that one. I think you’re twisting my point about self policing. I’m not saying people do it because of race, I’m just saying it’s human nature to be wary of the situations you put yourself in and you tend to avoid situations or groups that look potentially troublesome.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cevzryw74w7o

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20397648.html

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3400045

Granted not all in Ireland but we see anti-immigration protest in very country very few anti-christian clergy

As for you clarification on self policing that has always been something people do and have done for decades if not centuries, it has little to nothing to do with immigration as there are plenty of local areas and people you do your berst to avoid. So its an irrelevant point in the comtext of the reason for these "concerned parent groups"

pineapple stu

31/10/2025, 11:05 PM

I thought I put together a pretty balanced and fair post. It’s hard to debate you on a point where you just decide that you think that the RC church abuses that plagued our country for decades is still happening - without offering any evidence. Tough to know where to go with that one.
I find it's a characteristic of liberal mindsets at times. They must be right, so there's no need to offer any real evidence. You can always be called a racist if debate gets out of hand (Mícheál Martin is particularly bad at this, and it can only fuel the anger at the moment). Or as Neish has done here, just ignored my attempt at discussing the systematic racism and unsustainability inherent in modern emigration/immigration. It makes discussion really hard, and without discussion, you can't really progress society.

(This doesn't always happen of course - but it happens far more than is reasonable in my view)

Neish

01/11/2025, 1:44 AM

I find it's a characteristic of liberal mindsets at times. They must be right, so there's no need to offer any real evidence. You can always be called a racist if debate gets out of hand (Mícheál Martin is particularly bad at this, and it can only fuel the anger at the moment). Or as Neish has done here, just ignored my attempt at discussing the systematic racism and unsustainability inherent in modern emigration/immigration. It makes discussion really hard, and without discussion, you can't really progress society.

(This doesn't always happen of course - but it happens far more than is reasonable in my view)

I offered evidence but didn't think I needed to to anyone actually paying attention the last 15-20 years for every case of sexual assaults with a foreign suspect or conviction there are scores of cases with locals as the suspect or convicted. All the data and stats on such cases point to this

The need to be right without the offer of any real evidence to back it up , have you heard of Trump, Farage , Robinson, McGregor, Blighe, Pepper, Dwyer? Yeah all far left loonie they are :rolleyes:

culloty82

01/11/2025, 9:04 AM

I find it's a characteristic of liberal mindsets at times. They must be right, so there's no need to offer any real evidence. You can always be called a racist if debate gets out of hand (Mícheál Martin is particularly bad at this, and it can only fuel the anger at the moment). Or as Neish has done here, just ignored my attempt at discussing the systematic racism and unsustainability inherent in modern emigration/immigration. It makes discussion really hard, and without discussion, you can't really progress society.

(This doesn't always happen of course - but it happens far more than is reasonable in my view)

The general advice given to parties of the left is that they need to incorporate the various discussions on migration into their policy platform, but for every Danish Social Democrats (who've merely stood still, at any rate, over the last decade), you've the Dutch Socialist Party, UK Labour, French Socialists, and the BWS in Germany, who only hollowed out their own support bases to little material benefit. Better on the whole to address workers concerns in the round by focusing on healthcare, housing and overall community infrastructure, which eliminates concerns about identity politics distractions.

pineapple stu

03/11/2025, 1:53 PM

I offered evidence but didn't think I needed to to anyone actually paying attention the last 15-20 years for every case of sexual assaults with a foreign suspect or conviction there are scores of cases with locals as the suspect or convicted. All the data and stats on such cases point to this

The need to be right without the offer of any real evidence to back it up , have you heard of Trump, Farage , Robinson, McGregor, Blighe, Pepper, Dwyer? Yeah all far left loonie they are :rolleyes:
Well in my case I was saying you'd ignored (and have still ignored) my challenging you on my description of your views on medical staff in Ireland as systematically racist.

Equally I don't think you did offer any particular evidence in the discussion, and SkStu's was very well set out in terms of rebutting your suggestion that nobody did anything to protest against the Catholic Church for example.

pineapple stu

03/11/2025, 2:02 PM

The general advice given to parties of the left is that they need to incorporate the various discussions on migration into their policy platform
I think that is the essence of democracy - to listen to the people. Democracy as a concept started off in Athens as a grouping of the citizens (a fairly select grouping, granted) discussing major issues and trying to come to an agreement. Now we have parties - and big business - pushing their views on people, telling them they're racist if they don't agree to letting any and all asylum seekers into the country (thereby supporting criminal gangs who are behind the boats, the people forgetting documents on the plane and so on - why the **** are we so actively supporting criminal gangs?), free or subsidised housing while others are stuck at home into their 30s (Simon Harris was on the radio yesterday saying it was maybe about time that asylum seekers in employment paid something towards their rent costs - no ****ing **** Sherlock) and having a small cohort skimming money off the top (hotel owners for example). The government today are almost sociopathic in their lack of regard for wider social issues.

So it's no surprise in that case to see the huge rejection of mainstream politics that we've seen lately - low voter turnout, dwindling support for the major parties, fragmented government with more and more independents, and protests because ultimately if your voice is being ignored, what else have you left?

The identity politics stuff is one of the bigger groupthink issues of recent decades - the sooner we break that nonsense, the better. There's other issues of course, but that's a huge one. I agree with you that the likes of Labour in Britain have followed it mindlessly to their detriment. They're supposed to be the party of the working class and they're prattling on about gender ID and banning straight white males from party conferences on equality, while setting different prices based on skin colour. It's mental stuff - but fortunately for them, Britain has a daft voting set-up so that once the Tories' vote was split, they were ruined. (And don't take this as an endorsement of the Tories either of course)

Neish

03/11/2025, 8:06 PM

Well in my case I was saying you'd ignored (and have still ignored) my challenging you on my description of your views on medical staff in Ireland as systematically racist.

Equally I don't think you did offer any particular evidence in the discussion, and SkStu's was very well set out in terms of rebutting your suggestion that nobody did anything to protest against the Catholic Church for example.

I don't belive your challenging of my view on medical staff in Ireland as racist had any validity .

I simply stated the true fact that the Irish healthcare system (and just about every healthcare system in the so called "first world") is highly dependent of foreign labour. If your trying to suggest this deprives said workers home communities of said labour a systemically racist I think that is simply ludicrous. This had been happening for centuries is is one of the central boost of those the promote capitalism as the greatest political ideology

Could you kindly explain where you see the systematically racism in what I said.

Neish

03/11/2025, 8:18 PM

I think that is the essence of democracy - to listen to the people. Democracy as a concept started off in Athens as a grouping of the citizens (a fairly select grouping, granted) discussing major issues and trying to come to an agreement. Now we have parties - and big business - pushing their views on people, telling them they're racist if they don't agree to letting any and all asylum seekers into the country (thereby supporting criminal gangs who are behind the boats, the people forgetting documents on the plane and so on - why the **** are we so actively supporting criminal gangs?), free or subsidised housing while others are stuck at home into their 30s (Simon Harris was on the radio yesterday saying it was maybe about time that asylum seekers in employment paid something towards their rent costs - no ****ing **** Sherlock) and having a small cohort skimming money off the top (hotel owners for example). The government today are almost sociopathic in their lack of regard for wider social issues.

The issue is not questioning immigration policy the issue is targeting building housing immigrants (who have no control on where they are housed ) instead of government building where all said decision are made. This issue is using violence and aggressive intimidation to get your point across

Finally if you are attending protest organised and promoted by far right and some unashamed racist and spreading their message via social media then imo you can't cry of being deemed guilty by association

So it's no surprise in that case to see the huge rejection of mainstream politics that we've seen lately - low voter turnout, dwindling support for the major parties, fragmented government with more and more independents, and protests because ultimately if your voice is being ignored, what else have you left?]]

Th vast majority of said mainstream parties are centre right what those that tell you?

pineapple stu

04/11/2025, 2:21 PM

I don't belive your challenging of my view on medical staff in Ireland as racist had any validity .
Why not?

I simply stated the true fact that the Irish healthcare system (and just about every healthcare system in the so called "first world") is highly dependent of foreign labour. If your trying to suggest this deprives said workers home communities of said labour a systemically racist I think that is simply ludicrous.
Why? (And I've clearly shown that it does deprive said communities of said labour, so I'm assuming that's not up for debate)

And I'll note this validates my earlier point about the inability of some liberal modern mindsets to engage in any discussion that deviates from their own mindset.

This had been happening for centuries
No it hasn't. Mass immigration is a very modern phenomenon. It was practically unknown before the early 19th century and the invention of the steam ship for example. In reality, it was largely unknown before the 60s and the advent of relatively cheap air travel, as well as increased labour specialisation and education. Outside America, it's only really taken off in the last 20 years or so.

Could you kindly explain where you see the systematically racism in what I said.
You mean, could I explain it again? Because, to be clear, I already explained it.

But here goes. Do you not see a problem with a system whereby developing countries lose 75%+ of the medical staff they train, leaving tens of thousands of people to die unnecessarily each year?

I cannot see how that is anything other than systematically racist. It's the basis on which colonialism worked - we'll get rich off poor people's things and screw them. Increasingly, lots of things about colonialism are being seen to be problematic. But you think this twist on colonialism is fine?

And when we finish with the racism angle, there's the sustainability/climate change/carbon emissions angle to consider too.

SkStu

04/11/2025, 3:28 PM

The issue is not questioning immigration policy the issue is targeting building housing immigrants (who have no control on where they are housed ) instead of government building where all said decision are made. This issue is using violence and aggressive intimidation to get your point across

The issue is immigration policy. It is the root of the unrest and disillusionment. The organized protest and unrest is seen as a last resort by the impacted community after the rape/sexual assault of a 10 year old child by an immigrant. A last resort after years of disturbances and crime where their calls for police intervention and dialogue with local authorities were basically ignored. The unacceptable thuggery and violence that attached to the protest was sadly inevitable but it represented a very small percentage of the 2000-3000 people that were there. Yet it dominated the discourse and distracted from a very valid local and national issue. Immigration.

You cant say in good faith or in good intelligence that the issue is not immigration policy but is simply down to racism and targeted violence. You say that immigration is working because we have more doctors and nurses in healthcare. How can you say that with a straight face? Is the issue that one dimensional to you? In fact, Simon Harris - based on his comments over the weekend - would now seem to agree that the issue is immigration policy. He basically suggests the same as I posted earlier in the thread in terms of us taking too many in that we cannot sustain (he adds that there are also many, many bad faith applicants). A post he probably would have labelled as far right or racist not too long ago.

pineapple stu

05/11/2025, 1:44 PM

On a related note, I see the headline in the Indo today (or yesterday) was that asylum seekers who don't pay rent won't face deportation.

So come over here on false pretences (for a large number) having funded organised crime, get given a place to live for free, and now the Government says if you're working maybe you should have to pay rent, but if you don't pay rent there'll be no real consequences. And the Government have previously acknowledged that 95% of deportation orders aren't enforced anyway, so even if you are kicked out of the country, you just ignore the order and stay on the gravy train anyway.

It's no wonder people are getting ****ed off when they see the price of housing skyrocketing and others getting a house for free. As you say, the protests are a last resort when dialogue has been ignored. I've said on the Israel thread I don't agree with Hamas' actions, but ultimately Israel created Hamas. And I could say similar here - I don't agree with burning houses or buses and so on, but ultimately the Government (and a select few who are creaming money off on this) have created the problem. Fix the problem and the reaction will go away.

Neish

05/11/2025, 8:37 PM

The issue is immigration policy. It is the root of the unrest and disillusionment. The organized protest and unrest is seen as a last resort by the impacted community after the rape/sexual assault of a 10 year old child by an immigrant. A last resort after years of disturbances and crime where their calls for police intervention and dialogue with local authorities were basically ignored. The unacceptable thuggery and violence that attached to the protest was sadly inevitable but it represented a very small percentage of the 2000-3000 people that were there. Yet it dominated the discourse and distracted from a very valid local and national issue. Immigration.

You cant say in good faith or in good intelligence that the issue is not immigration policy but is simply down to racism and targeted violence. You say that immigration is working because we have more doctors and nurses in healthcare. How can you say that with a straight face? Is the issue that one dimensional to you? In fact, Simon Harris - based on his comments over the weekend - would now seem to agree that the issue is immigration policy. He basically suggests the same as I posted earlier in the thread in terms of us taking too many in that we cannot sustain (he adds that there are also many, many bad faith applicants). A post he probably would have labelled as far right or racist not too long ago.

Last resort? Its the first resort for most. Have you a list all they other methods the organiser of these protest exhausted to voice the objections before your last resort of violence and intimadation?

I didn't say it isn't about immigration policy but down to racism, I asked why are they not targeting government building who set said policy instead of using collective punishment on hundreds if not thousands with the use of violent and non violent intimation protests outside IPA centres? "Chants & banners of get them out etc"

And I reiterate if you attending events and spreading social media posts organised by blatant bigoted racists then you are guilty by association . Are you telling me this self proclaimed "silent majority" can't get themselves together to organise their own events and excluded the far right from them? And if violence etc occurs(by small groups) they voice their objections to it with the same amount of vigor that they did to push their ideology

As for Pineapple stu , I'm ignoring you until you tell by how it is racist to allow people to move to other countries for better job and quality of life. We Irish a one of the biggest per capita migrating nationalities in the world the vast, vast majority of it economic and its deprived Ireland of skilled workers that were trained in Ireland. This is the way the worls has operated since the industrial revolution its not racist in any way

SkStu

05/11/2025, 11:09 PM

Last resort? Its the first resort for most. Have you a list all they other methods the organiser of these protest exhausted to voice the objections before your last resort of violence and intimadation?

Absolute spoofery of the highest. Another example of where you just draw an unsupported conclusion so you can continue to support your position. Read the reams of quotes from local residents, community groups and local councillors who have all commented on the lack of engagement and dialogue, and the concerns that went unanswered. A lot of these articles include quotes from the IPAS residents themselves who raised issues and concerns about their conditions and experiences that were ignored.

I didn't say it isn't about immigration policy but down to racism, I asked why are they not targeting government building who set said policy instead of using collective punishment on hundreds if not thousands with the use of violent and non violent intimation protests outside IPA centres? "Chants & banners of get them out etc"

"The issue is not questioning immigration policy..." - your words.

And I reiterate if you attending events and spreading social media posts organised by blatant bigoted racists then you are guilty by association . Are you telling me this self proclaimed "silent majority" can't get themselves together to organise their own events and excluded the far right from them? And if violence etc occurs(by small groups) they voice their objections to it with the same amount of vigor that they did to push their ideology

What evidence do you have that the organizers are blatant bigoted racists? The public record shows that the protests were initially peaceful and that they were organized by local groups who were shocked at the rape / sexual assault of a 10 year old kid by someone in their community. These protests were subsequently hijacked by gurriers and racists. Where is the guilt by association coming into it? Drawing that out, I assume you refuse to attend football matches where there are hooligans because that will naturally make you a hooligan too? By your own rules, you are guilty by association for daring to show up at a game where there might be hooligans. Absolutely nothing you can do about it, of course, but there you are; a hooligan.

What are your thoughts on the recent comments from the politicians who seem to agree with the points I made over the last couple of pages? Racists?

Neish

06/11/2025, 8:15 AM

Absolute spoofery of the highest. Another example of where you just draw an unsupported conclusion so you can continue to support your position. Read the reams of quotes from local residents, community groups and local councillors who have all commented on the lack of engagement and dialogue, and the concerns that went unanswered. A lot of these articles include quotes from the IPAS residents themselves who raised issues and concerns about their conditions and experiences that were ignored.

I'm well aware of this, but there are many other methods of action that can be taken if question are ignored. Petitions, mass organised letters/emails etc to both government and media, sit-ins, blocking roads just a few off the top of my head. Nothing justifies the use of collective punishment by use of aggressive intimation of hundreds/ thousands of people for crimes of a few

"The issue is not questioning immigration policy..." - your words.
You seem to have mis understood here , or perhaps I worded poorly. I'm saying questioning immigration policy is not the issue , the issue is targeting IPA centres not government where such policies are made with protest especially with violent and agressive intimidation racist chants of get them out etc

What evidence do you have that the organizers are blatant bigoted racists? The public record shows that the protests were initially peaceful and that they were organized by local groups who were shocked at the rape / sexual assault of a 10 year old kid by someone in their community. These protests were subsequently hijacked by gurriers and racists. Where is the guilt by association coming into it? Drawing that out, I assume you refuse to attend football matches where there are hooligans because that will naturally make you a hooligan too? By your own rules, you are guilty by association for daring to show up at a game where there might be hooligans. Absolutely nothing you can do about it, of course, but there you are; a hooligan.

What are your thoughts on the recent comments from the politicians who seem to agree with the points I made over the last couple of pages? Racists?

You're telling me the like of Nial McConnell, Derek Blighe, Philip Dwyer, Gavin Pepper etc are racist or at best pushing mantra that far right bigots have used for decades. Your hooligan analogy is poor too as Hooligans don't organise football matches and are in many cases banned from attending games by the clubs of governing bodies

https://www.donegaldaily.com/2025/11/06/letterkenny-man-jailed-for-sexually-assaulting-girl-8/

Where is the concerned parents groups for this case?

Just about every week we see case of Irish men (and ocassionally women) in court for sexual assaults but yet no mass organised protests only in the IPA centres

pineapple stu

06/11/2025, 9:43 AM

As for Pineapple stu , I'm ignoring you until you tell by how it is racist to allow people to move to other countries for better job and quality of life. We Irish a one of the biggest per capita migrating nationalities in the world the vast, vast majority of it economic and its deprived Ireland of skilled workers that were trained in Ireland. This is the way the worls has operated since the industrial revolution its not racist in any way
So again, we have the typical reaction of the liberal. Refusing - or simply unable - to engage in the debate and finding an excuse to opt out of it.

I've very clearly told you twice now how modern migration is racist. Thousands of people dying in every developing country because of a lack of doctors because the west takes the majority of them - and you don't see anything problematic in that? You actually haven't even once addressed that fact. You focus on how people are leaving for a better way of life - you ignore how complicit you are in generating a worse way of life in developing countries. One where, once again, thousands of people die annually for the want of basic healthcare. That's systemic racism.

Emigration caused huge damage to Ireland down the decades; we should be aware of our own history and learn from it.

And this is not the way the world has operated since the Industrial Revolution - targeting developing countries to take their labour (either specialist or cheap) is a very modern phenomenon. In Europe, it can probably be traced to the Windrush generation post World War 2, and as I say, it has only escalated this century. Your argument that "This is the way the world has operated since..." has echoes of slavers saying "This is the way the world has operated since..." - just because things have been going on like this for a while doesn't mean they're not racist.

And of course you haven't at all even acknowledged the carbon footprint of emigration as problematic either.

Overall though - you're just reiterating a viewpoint without any factual or contextual backup (whereas I've provided plenty) and have refused to engage in my counter-points, instead asking me to explain what I've already explained to you three times now. And then you say you're going to ignore me. That's pathetic Neish. I'd have expected better debate from you.

But as I say, all too typical of the mindless, thoughtless patter of some liberals.

SkStu

06/11/2025, 12:28 PM

I'm well aware of this, but there are many other methods of action that can be taken if question are ignored. Petitions, mass organised letters/emails etc to both government and media, sit-ins, blocking roads just a few off the top of my head. Nothing justifies the use of collective punishment by use of aggressive intimation of hundreds/ thousands of people for crimes of a few

You seem to have mis understood here , or perhaps I worded poorly. I'm saying questioning immigration policy is not the issue , the issue is targeting IPA centres not government where such policies are made with protest especially with violent and agressive intimidation racist chants of get them out etc

You're telling me the like of Nial McConnell, Derek Blighe, Philip Dwyer, Gavin Pepper etc are racist or at best pushing mantra that far right bigots have used for decades. Your hooligan analogy is poor too as Hooligans don't organise football matches and are in many cases banned from attending games by the clubs of governing bodies

https://www.donegaldaily.com/2025/11/06/letterkenny-man-jailed-for-sexually-assaulting-girl-8/

Where is the concerned parents groups for this case?

Just about every week we see case of Irish men (and ocassionally women) in court for sexual assaults but yet no mass organised protests only in the IPA centres

You’ve ignored my direct question about Harris and other politicians recent comments but I suppose you’ve already indirectly answered it by asserting that immigration is working beautifully.

My most basic point is that immigration is broken and what we are seeing - peaceful protest or violent - is a byproduct of this. I think it needs to be looked at from top to bottom and there needs to be some honest dialogue about what functioning, positive immigration looks like in Ireland. You don’t seem to agree with that and would rather just put it down solely to some inherent racism that lives within Irish people or Irish working class people. I think we’re better than that and I think our past record on immigration shows it. The issue and causes of the unrest are deeper than simply racism and I think you’re doing a disservice to reducing the argument to that. But we’re not likely to agree on much so I’ll just leave it there.

Neish

06/11/2025, 1:36 PM

So again, we have the typical reaction of the liberal. Refusing - or simply unable - to engage in the debate and finding an excuse to opt out of it.

I've very clearly told you twice now how modern migration is racist. Thousands of people dying in every developing country because of a lack of doctors because the west takes the majority of them - and you don't see anything problematic in that? You actually haven't even once addressed that fact. You focus on how people are leaving for a better way of life - you ignore how complicit you are in generating a worse way of life in developing countries. One where, once again, thousands of people die annually for the want of basic healthcare. That's systemic racism.

Emigration caused huge damage to Ireland down the decades; we should be aware of our own history and learn from it.

And this is not the way the world has operated since the Industrial Revolution - targeting developing countries to take their labour (either specialist or cheap) is a very modern phenomenon. In Europe, it can probably be traced to the Windrush generation post World War 2, and as I say, it has only escalated this century. Your argument that "This is the way the world has operated since..." has echoes of slavers saying "This is the way the world has operated since..." - just because things have been going on like this for a while doesn't mean they're not racist.

And of course you haven't at all even acknowledged the carbon footprint of emigration as problematic either.

Overall though - you're just reiterating a viewpoint without any factual or contextual backup (whereas I've provided plenty) and have refused to engage in my counter-points, instead asking me to explain what I've already explained to you three times now. And then you say you're going to ignore me. That's pathetic Neish. I'd have expected better debate from you.

But as I say, all too typical of the mindless, thoughtless patter of some liberals.

No doctors are being taken from poorer countries they are moving of their free will to seek better quality of life. You may have told me that its racist but allowing people to chose their own walk in life is the exact opposite of a racist system You make it sound like they are being kidnapped and forced into work in richer countries. Is that what you're saying everybody should stay in their own country no matter how corrupt, tyrannical etc the governing bodies are there, regardless if there is destitute poverty, war etc?

You're not giving a factual viewpoint just continually repeating about how its typical of the liberal mindset well guess what just about all this happen under capitalist countries and capitalist policies

Yes this has been the way of the world since the industrial revolution, back then migration was mostly domestic but it been international since the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The amount of Irish(and just about every other nationality) in the USA, Canada, Australia , UK etc is evidence of this

Carbon footprint? Careful now you could be accused of a liberal mindset by bringing carbon footprint into a debate

Neish

06/11/2025, 1:46 PM

You’ve ignored my direct question about Harris and other politicians recent comments but I suppose you’ve already indirectly answered it by asserting that immigration is working beautifully.

What was your question on Harris(who I'm no supporter of) i can't see it.

My most basic point is that immigration is broken and what we are seeing - peaceful protest or violent - is a byproduct of this. I think it needs to be looked at from top to bottom and there needs to be some honest dialogue about what functioning, positive immigration looks like in Ireland. You don’t seem to agree with that and would rather just put it down solely to some inherent racism that lives within Irish people or Irish working class people. I think we’re better than that and I think our past record on immigration shows it. The issue and causes of the unrest are deeper than simply racism and I think you’re doing a disservice to reducing the argument to that. But we’re not likely to agree on much so I’ll just leave it there.

I disagree that immigration is broken. The vast majority of people in the system I have met, read about etc are honest people either fleeing big probems in their homeland or simply trying to better their life. It may need a bit of tinkering and the policy need some major upheaval but IMO thats more to support those in the system to provide better standard of living for them.

Are you denying that there is racists groups and personalities promoting and attending these protests many been giving a platform at the event?