Netherlands V Republic of Ireland - Saturday, 18 November 2023 - Euro 2024 Qualifier

[Diggs246]

He's right.. and in fairness he got an absolute dog of a group, basically getting the top ranked team in Pot 1, 2 and 4.. I mean talk about the footballing God's being against you..

But what did for him were two woefully inept performances against Greece in this campaign, and losing against Armenia last NL campaign

The Luxembourg loss was also a kick in the stones

No one who's honest expected Ireland to finish ahead of France and Holland... but the **** poor NL campaign had killed the play off opportunity even before the draw was made.. we really need to fully understand how important NL is in terms of seedings for World Cups, and seeding plus play offs for Euros.. and you still have people thinking they are glorified friendly games.. finish 2nd in your Nations League group and you're almost guaranteed a play off spot in the Euros

Though watch next time, we'll likely end up with England, Ukraine and Georgia.. when we could end up with Wales, Iceland, Kazakhstan

Looking at the teams coming up, Greece, Georgia and Turkey are all fourth seeds.. would we fancy beating any of them?

Unless we improve quickly, we'll be in the C path fairly rapidly

Oh my god stop ...the footballing gods against him!
The only reason we have France is because of Stephens results?. If we beat the worst Bulgarian team in 20 year's at home... Guess what we remain second seeds and no France

[EalingGreen]

He's right.. and in fairness he got an absolute dog of a group, basically getting the top ranked team in Pot 1, 2 and 4.. I mean talk about the footballing God's being against you.. As against that, he had the Luck of the (Southern) Irish in the draw for the 2020 Euros, where ROI were drawn out as 3rd seeds in a Group with Germany, Netherlands, Belarus and Estonia, but went back into the hat again, since you couldn't have 3 hosts in the same group. Then ROI subsequently didn't actually host any games because of Covid etc.

While your new Group (Switzerland, Denmark, Georgia and Gibraltar) was noticeably easier.

P.S. I say "Southern" because NI got put in the original Group instead.

[Eirambler]

He wasn't even in charge for that group Ealing Green.

But yeah, the bad luck thing is nonsense. We got the draw we got because he made a balls of the Nations League campaign. We didn't get a playoff that would have probably allowed him to cling on grimly for a few more months because he made a balls of the Nations League campaign. He got two handy enough Nations League draws and made a mess of both groups, narrowly avoiding relegation each time only because there was a team even worse than his one in both groups.

We concede too many soft goals because he has no clue how to set a team up defensively. We have beaten Wales, Austria and France (over 90 minutes) away from home in recent years so his Tier 1 "stat" is bull**** as well.

He is a terrible manager at this level and has been shown up in this regard repeatedly over the last three years. I can't wait to see the back of him in truth. Only once he's gone can our rebuild really begin.

[elatedscum]

Let’s not be stupid about this. Wales and Austria aren’t Tier 1 teams. France we didn’t beat.

Tier 1 teams are:

Germany
France
Spain
Italy
England
Netherlands
Portugal
-
Belgium
Croatia

First 7 are sure things. Belgium and Croatia aren’t always but are in the last decade

[Eirambler]

If you're cutting it down to that few a number then I wouldn't have the Netherlands in there either. Not the current team anyway.

[SkStu]

If you're cutting it down to that few a number then I wouldn't have the Netherlands in there either. Not the current team anyway.

Teams you never want to get drawn against in qualifiers will always contain that list from ES. To suggest that the Netherlands shouldn’t be in there, current team or not, is a bit much. Of the list of 7, England and Portugal have had dips in form too over the last 30 years but quality always stays high and you’d still hate to draw them, let alone any two of them in the same group.

[elatedscum]

If you're cutting it down to that few a number then I wouldn't have the Netherlands in there either. Not the current team anyway.

Less than a year ago, they lost in the quarter final <EDIT> of the world cup, on penalties to the eventual winner. Not sure how they're not at the very very top table???

[pineapple stu]

The quarters, not the semis. And that with about as easy a run to the quarters as you could hope for

But they're definitely top table in my eyes, even if they're often one step away from a crisis

(I'm also quite happy to count the France game as a win!)

[EalingGreen]

He wasn't even in charge for that group Ealing Green.Doh! For some reason I had it in my head he took over in 2018.


He is a terrible manager at this level and has been shown up in this regard repeatedly over the last three years. I can't wait to see the back of him in truth. Only once he's gone can our rebuild really begin.Can't comment on that, since I don't follow closely enough.

Generally, however, I firmly believe that managers, like players, need time to grow into the job, but while we're patient with young players, managers never get that time.

Mind you, even if SK might learn more and improve with more time on the job (debatable), I suspect he may have lost this set of players, won't get them back, and there isn't another set to replace them.

[TonyD]

Kenny is lucky that treason isn’t still a hanging offence ….. his tenure makes me want to puke

Treason ? Jesus, calm down. He’s a football manager who hasn’t done very well, that’s all.

[Stuttgart88]

Thought Bazunu was really good overall - could he have done better for the goal? Mikey Johnston looked lively. Despite the doom and gloom and frustration, Collins was probably fouled for their goal - and Idah was a centimetre or two away from scoring a good goal. Doesn’t feel great right nowI think Weghort's shot was perfect. Powerful, started outside the post and curled in.

[Stuttgart88]

Scales was outstanding imho. Cullen was very brave but really had a thankless task trying to build anything. I was lucky enough to be at Chelsea v Man City last week. Two players really stood out. Cole Palmer and Bernardo Silva. Always looking to do something poisitive with the ball. Years ago I used the terms "adhesive" and "accretive" here to describe CMs. The former is a Cullen-type who recycles the ball but doesn't add much in possession, the latter is someone who constantly probes and stretches defences, either by direct running or incisive passing, or both. Silva and Palmer were accretive-on-steroids. Palmer's bravery in taking the ball on the half-turn, spinning quickly and just relentlessly attacking space was incredible. On Saturday we just had nobody capable of doing what rugby calls "getting over the gain line". Knight tried to spin his man once but just ran straight into him. Lack of pace ahead of Knight and Browne made it harder tbf. At Chelsea Palmer knew that once he had turned he had a pacy wide man to hit either side (Sterling was frequently his out ball and their full backs got forward) with Gallagher supporting him centrally and a mobile centre forward to hit (even if Jackson is a bit hit & miss). Apropos nothing, Rodri was huge. Much bigger in the flesh than he looks on TV.

[ifk101]

Generally, however, I firmly believe that managers, like players, need time to grow into the job, but while we're patient with young players, managers never get that time.

Mind you, even if SK might learn more and improve with more time on the job (debatable), I suspect he may have lost this set of players, won't get them back, and there isn't another set to replace them.

He's had 40 odd games in charge now which is enough to make the generational change in the player pool (which he had done) and to improve our lot in terms of results (which he hasn't done, obviously). His win percentage is just 28%. While this win percentage may be acceptable to give more time on the job elsewhere, for example it's more than what Baraclough achieved and what O'Neill currently has, it is from our historical perspective as low as it gets.

He does seem to have the players backing but that's not too surprising given he made previous squad players into regulars in the team (Doherty, Egan, Cullen) or gave players their debuts. There's always a couple of options to change the make up of the team but a full set of readymade players to come in doesn't exist. But it's a young squad with potential, and looking at the underage teams, it's reasonable to hope that a few above-average senior players are coming through.

[JR89]

1726549850140107166

Kenny slinging some mud on his way out. Not a good look when you've just overseen the worse campaign in Irish history that against proper opposition you only scored twice and both from set pieces (one being a penalty).

[Diggs246]

Martin o neill got us to the last 16 of the euros.... But Mon has attacked and had a load of goes at Stephen. Fine whatever

But Stephen having a go at Stan who has never once had a go at Stephen is absolutely disgraceful. Christ I thought Stephen was just useless but he might be a bellend as well

[JR89]

Nathan Collins the only one ruled out with an ankle ligament injury. Evan Ferguson seems to be okay according to Kenny.

[Calcio Jack]

Treason ? Jesus, calm down. He’s a football manager who hasn’t done very well, that’s all.

It’s called exaggerated hyperbole used to match Kenny’s own exaggerated spoofing ( on the rare occasions when one can decipher his gibberish)

Anyway hopefully tonight brings the end of the worst manager we’ve ever had to suffer.

[pineapple stu]

1726549850140107166

Kenny slinging some mud on his way out. Not a good look when you've just overseen the worse campaign in Irish history that against proper opposition you only scored twice and both from set pieces (one being a penalty).
That's a bit mad.

Saturday on its own would have been overlooked had it not been the culmination of lots of poor results of course.

[seanfhear]

Its pretty odd that Kenny could even think that even in his wildest dreams that he could / should be kept on as Irish manager.

Better to leave with a bit if dignity and realism.

[joey B]

His media interactions are excruciating at this stage,like he lives in a bubble and doesn’t understand how badly is reign is now viewed,taking shots at previous managers doesn’t paint him in a good light…..

[JR89]

That's a bit mad.

Saturday on its own would have been overlooked had it not been the culmination of lots of poor results of course.

What's also a bit mad is he thinks Saturday night was a good game of football.

"We played Holland the other night, one of the best teams in Europe. People will have their own opinions on it but I thought it was a good game of football,".

"No question, Holland were the better team. We fought to the end of that game, we didn't create enough, we know that, and we defended for our lives when we needed to. It wasn't like we lost 4-1 to Wales or got hammered in Cyprus or Macedonia the other night, it was a tight game in Holland that we lost 1-0 and deserved to lose. It was one of those games, I think a bit of perspective on that,"

[ifk101]

He said he had sought job assurances but wasn’t given any. I’d read his comments in that context. He’s swinging after the bell. It’s over.

[Stuttgart88]

Saturday on its own would have been overlooked had it not been the culmination of lots of poor results of course.I’m by no means trying to defend the now indefensible but I thought it was interesting that in the last few days Armenia took their total to 4 points from Wales (they should have won late on Saturday too though Wales were throwing men forward), Azerbaijan beat Sweden 3-0 on Thursday (lost 5-0 yesterday though) and Luxembourg beat Bosnia 4-1. Luxembourg actually got 17 points from 10 games in qualifying.

So by themselves any of the poor results against teams of this stature aren’t to be unexpected, but the overall string of results was pretty poor. I honestly felt we were turning a corner around the time we beat Luxembourg away but that and Scotland were about as good as it got.

[brine3]

Has he already forgotten that we lost to Luxembourg?

[Jd2793]

I’m by no means trying to defend the now indefensible but I thought it was interesting that in the last few days Armenia took their total to 4 points from Wales (they should have won late on Saturday too though Wales were throwing men forward), Azerbaijan beat Sweden 3-0 on Thursday (lost 5-0 yesterday though) and Luxembourg beat Bosnia 4-1. Luxembourg actually got 17 points from 10 games in qualifying.

So by themselves any of the poor results against teams of this stature aren’t to be unexpected, but the overall string of results was pretty poor. I honestly felt we were turning a corner around the time we beat Luxembourg away but that and Scotland were about as good as it got.


hard for a lot of people to take on board that the likes of armenia and Luxembourg (two teams we should be beating but have no devine right to beat) arent as bad as they were 10/20 years ago. these results have been coming down the tracks for a country like Lux given the good work theyve done in the underage ranks over the past 5/6 years. we were desperate in the home defeat to them no getting away from it but people need to stop treating them like they are a current day Liechtenstein or San Marino or a Macedonia from 20 years ago. really grates on me that people are still going on like losing to Lux at home was the most humiliating thing of all time.

[pineapple stu]

Luxembourg is a very small country; while we we have no divine right to beat them, we really have to be asking ourselves hard questions if we're losing to them, and finishing a campaign on the same points as them as we did in 2022 qualifying. Their U21s got one point in their last qualifying campaign (against us...) and three points in the campaign before that. Have they really been doing anything special at underage level?

Azerbaijan has a lot of oil money and have put it into their clubs, but they don't seem to have built a strong culture there yet. There's a couple of clubs have reached the groups but I don't think they've particularly strong academies.

[ifk101]

Sweden are a shambles at the moment (they have let their current manager go btw). They gave two early goals away to Azerbaijan (both individual defensive mistakes) and just couldn't get going after that. The third goal was a lob from distance with Azerbaijan playing with 10 men.

[Jd2793]

Luxembourg is a very small country; while we we have no divine right to beat them, we really have to be asking ourselves hard questions if we're losing to them, and finishing a campaign on the same points as them as we did in 2022 qualifying. Their U21s got one point in their last qualifying campaign (against us...) and three points in the campaign before that. Have they really been doing anything special at underage level?

Azerbaijan has a lot of oil money and have put it into their clubs, but they don't seem to have built a strong culture there yet. There's a couple of clubs have reached the groups but I don't think they've particularly strong academies.



their 17s + 19s made big leaps over the last number of years. regularly getting thumped by big scores before then , now some what competitive. point is they arent a san marino yet loads on here still talk about them like they are a minnow who should easily be swatted aside. fact is the vast majority of the weak nations from 10/15 years ago have all improved to a certain extent apart from Lietch and San Marino. While as everyone knows we've gone backwards. Hopefully a new manager can improve things but ive never been as down on ireland as i am now. weve nothing coming through in midfield. a new manager should be better at in game decision making + changes than kenny, who was awful at it, but if we dont have better options than cullen and molumby then we'll continue to struggle .

[SkStu]

He said he had sought job assurances but wasn’t given any. I’d read his comments in that context. He’s swinging after the bell. It’s over.

This was always the problem with keeping him on after Greece. He was a dead man walking and would be facing questions about his reign while still having to keep defending it in some way. In the best way he could. It was bound to get awkward and/or bitter. Imagine being a player in the squad the last couple of days, I’d say it’s absolute misery.

[ifk101]

their 17s + 19s made big leaps over the last number of years. regularly getting thumped by big scores before then , now some what competitive. point is they arent a san marino yet loads on here still talk about them like they are a minnow who should easily be swatted aside. fact is the vast majority of the weak nations from 10/15 years ago have all improved to a certain extent apart from Lietch and San Marino. While as everyone knows we've gone backwards. Hopefully a new manager can improve things but ive never been as down on ireland as i am now. weve nothing coming through in midfield. a new manager should be better at in game decision making + changes than kenny, who was awful at it, but if we dont have better options than cullen and molumby then we'll continue to struggle .

I’d be fairly optimistic about the future – new manager dependent. Think we do have an improving group of players. As for midfield, there’s a lot more to get out of Smallbone and Andy Moran can hopefully develop into a competent player for us. Cullen has come into recent criticism, but I think this is more due to our shape and the space we are giving up. It’s too much ground for Cullen to cover quite simply. If we become more compact, the midfield should be better for it. But the players are there to build a strong defensive base, we have pace in wide positions, and we have a striker that’s going to score if we get the ball to him. With a relatively young squad profile, there is potential to be considerably better than we currently are.

[Stuttgart88]

Sweden are a shambles at the moment They missed a hilariously bad open goal from right under the bar early on saturday I think.

[Jd2793]

yeah i dont think you are wrong with most of your points tbf. i am a bit skeptical with smallbone though. doesnt seem like he has the physical attributes for where we'd like to go? again could be down to space he is being asked to cover and infairness we always seem open. if only you could combine molumbys energy with cullens football. still think we need some sort of a no8/6 to come through soon if we are to push on.

[CraftyToePoke]

This was always the problem with keeping him on after Greece. He was a dead man walking and would be facing questions about his reign while still having to keep defending it in some way. In the best way he could. It was bound to get awkward and/or bitter. Imagine being a player in the squad the last couple of days, I’d say it’s absolute misery.

It makes very little sense,whatever way I look at it, particularly after the FAI dug in on clauses which delayed the contract on this part of his tenure. The only way it makes sense is for Hill & Canham especially, it will now be borderline impossible their first appointment to the role doesn't bring improvement they can point to. Maybe I'm way too cynical at this stage.

[pineapple stu]

their 17s + 19s made big leaps over the last number of years. regularly getting thumped by big scores before then , now some what competitive. point is they arent a san marino yet loads on here still talk about them like they are a minnow who should easily be swatted aside. fact is the vast majority of the weak nations from 10/15 years ago have all improved to a certain extent apart from Lietch and San Marino. While as everyone knows we've gone backwards. Hopefully a new manager can improve things but ive never been as down on ireland as i am now. weve nothing coming through in midfield. a new manager should be better at in game decision making + changes than kenny, who was awful at it, but if we dont have better options than cullen and molumby then we'll continue to struggle .
I don't think anyone really thinks they're a San Marino or a Liechtenstein though. Underage results are a strange one in terms of how it factors into the senior side, in part because there's still so many players who just won't make it, certainly at international level, and you can also have the flip side of one really good year.

We've beaten them three times out of the last four at 21s level, while at 17s and 19s they're still behind us.

I still think if we're losing to them, we have to ask ourselves hard questions as to why.

Edit - actually, one neat way to see how the likes of Luxembourg have improved over the years is the Eloratings site. We played them in Euro 88 qualifying when we were rated 1764 (and about to take off of course) while they were 1156. Translates to about a 5% chance of a Luxembourg win in any given game. Fast forward to 2021, and we had dropped to 1650, while they were up to 1396 (about a 20% chance of a win). They're 1520 now, so they're continuing to improve, while we're still falling (1614).

[ifk101]

They missed a hilariously bad open goal from right under the bar early on saturday I think.

Yeah 2 times in the same attack movement. :-)

[elatedscum]

Their U21s got one point in their last qualifying campaign (against us...) and three points in the campaign before that. Have they really been doing anything special at underage level?.

I remember last year, maybe summer, I checked this out. Details are a little hazy but it’s somewhere on foot if anyone wants to waste time time finding it.

We had about 9 (or 10) 21s eligible lads either in the squad or missing through injury (where they were already squad regulars). No one in Europe had more than 4 players (or 3) - with the exception of Luxembourg who had 7 or something. So understandable that their 21s would have really suffered.

[TonyD]

yeah i dont think you are wrong with most of your points tbf. i am a bit skeptical with smallbone though. doesnt seem like he has the physical attributes for where we'd like to go? again could be down to space he is being asked to cover and infairness we always seem open. if only you could combine molumbys energy with cullens football. still think we need some sort of a no8/6 to come through soon if we are to push on.

Agree about Smallbone. I think he looks very casual as a player. Doesn’t convince me at all. He looked good in one of the friendlies for a spell, linking up with Doherty (Might have been Latvia ?) but apart from that really hasn’t done anything that would have you saying he’s a future star.

[samhaydenjr]

Interesting comment from SK post game: "The Republic of Ireland have never won an away game against a tier one team in history..."

"Surely not?" I thought. But looking back on it, if you discount a couple of wins away to England in the British Championship, NI have only managed it twice (I think) in competitive games, vs Spain and West Germany, with the last of those in 1983!

I suppose SK got it right when he added: "and it's because it's very hard."

He may well have meant competitive away fixtures, but we did beat the Dutch and Germans away in the build-up to USA '94


Let’s not be stupid about this. Wales and Austria aren’t Tier 1 teams. France we didn’t beat.

Tier 1 teams are:

Germany
France
Spain
Italy
England
Netherlands
Portugal
-
Belgium
Croatia

First 7 are sure things. Belgium and Croatia aren’t always but are in the last decade

We may not have beaten any of these teams away in competitive fixtures, but since the start of the Charlton era we have drawn away in competitive fixtures against all of them except Croatia - and that's the difference - it's always been very, very hard to beat tier one teams away from home, but right now it seems very, very hard for us to even draw with them.

[pineapple stu]

We've also beaten Germany, Holland, Spain and Croatia at home in that time.

Win your home games and draw your away ones and you'll go far. Instead, Kenny's best has been to draw the home ones and lose the away ones

[zero]

We've also beaten Germany, Holland, Spain and Croatia at home in that time.

Win your home games and draw your away ones and you'll go far. Instead, Kenny's best has been to draw the home ones and lose the away ones

or in the case of this campaign, lose both.

[Bungle]

I wouldn't wish any ill will on Stephen, but the comments about previous managers is petty and small time. O'Neill is a nasty piece of work who has enjoyed slinging it but basic cop on would tell you not to slag off a guy who won two European Cups, managed at a high level and had us competitive. I personally hated our style of play under O'Neill but you wouldn't be saying it's great under Kenny. Having a pop at Stan was out of order. An Irish legend who appeared in three world cups. In fairness, on paper, Stan had a very decent team and you could argue he did a worse job pound for pound given the resources at his disposal.

Kenny only had Coleman as a proper senior pro that could contribute anything of note as a player and he's injured a lot. The others are either past it like Duffy or limited like McClean (both have a skillset that was used much better by O'Neill). I feel sorry for him in this regard but despite what people are saying we actually have our most talented players coming through in twenty years. I'm glad to have Kenny gone with a view to maximisimg these players either in the team already or the ones about to come in like Moran. By the way, Moran will be a very good player for us imo. Hard to know what his ceiling will be, but I feel it will be good to very good premier league player.

We started the 2020s in disarray. Let's end it after playing in Euro 28 and in the mix for qualification for wc 2030.

[ifk101]

He had that tier 1 comment ready to roll – which is a problem. Even EalingGreen needed to check that up. So, it appears Kenny had his excuses ready prior to the result in the Holland, meaning he spent time in the build up preparing for defeat.

Understandable he’s making comments he believes can help keep him in the job, but in doing so he is revealing he is not currently doing his job as his mind is pre-occupied with fighting his corner.

[weldoninhio]

Even the Faroes got a point against a team higher than them in this qualifying group. The Faroes. Against the group winners no less.

[Exgrad]

Kenny only had Coleman as a proper senior pro that could contribute anything of note as a player and he's injured a lot. The others are either past it like Duffy or limited like McClean (both have a skillset that was used much better by O'Neill). I feel sorry for him in this regard but despite what people are saying we actually have our most talented players coming through in twenty years. I'm glad to have Kenny gone with a view to maximisimg these players either in the team already or the ones about to come in like Moran. By the way, Moran will be a very good player for us imo. Hard to know what his ceiling will be, but I feel it will be good to very good premier league player.

We started the 2020s in disarray. Let's end it after playing in Euro 28 and in the mix for qualification for wc 2030.

yes and he dropped him when he took over. One of the many glaring errors he made.

[mypost]

surprised at the reaction to bazunu. thought he should have done much better for the goal.

How dare you criticise him. He's playing every week in the pub league, so he's exempt from it. Beaten at the near post this time. Yes he made a few other saves, but by then the damage was done, and the three points were gone.

The stats are stark, 8 games played, 6 defeats, 10 goals conceded. An ever present in the worst Irish qualifying performance in 50 years.

When the new manager comes in, hopefully he won't select a goalkeeper who he can't rely upon to keep the ball out of the net. The first step on the road to progress.

[LurcherLover]

How dare you criticise him. He's playing every week in the pub league, so he's exempt from it. Beaten at the near post this time. Yes he made a few other saves, but by then the damage was done, and the three points were gone.

The stats are stark, 8 games played, 6 defeats, 10 goals conceded. An ever present in the worst Irish qualifying performance in 50 years.

When the new manager comes in, hopefully he won't select a goalkeeper who he can't rely upon to keep the ball out of the net. The first step on the road to progress.

As opposed to who? A grown man calling the English championship a pub league would make me seriously question your intellectual facilities.

[John83]

As opposed to who? A grown man calling the English championship a pub league would make me seriously question your intellectual facilities.I see you've met mypost.

There are multiple posters reporting that post, so I'm going to ask mypost to tone it down.

[dahamsta]

C'mon lads, grow up will ye? Did your mammies never tell ye to just ignore people that bother ye?

If you don't have the self-control to do it yourself, get the website to do it for you:

https://foot.ie/profile.php?do=ignorelist

[Razors left peg]

C'mon lads, grow up will ye? Did your mammies never tell ye to just ignore people that bother ye?

If you don't have the self-control to do it yourself, get the website to do it for you:

https://foot.ie/profile.php?do=ignorelist

Calling out gobsh1tery is part of the fun sometimes : )

[mypost]

I see you've met mypost.

There are multiple posters reporting that post, so I'm going to ask mypost to tone it down.

Tone what down, I did nothing wrong. I've used that phrase several times before, it applies to all leagues in England below the EPL.

I know people like to equate the quality of the league he plays in, with the Champions League that many of our opponents do, but facing opponents such as Rotherham every week is not the same as facing Real Madrid, it just isn't. The gulf in standards between the EPL and the next one down, is currently being shown by what the three promoted sides from last year are doing.

In the past 18 months, Kenny went with him in goal, just as Hassenhuttl did, and Jones did. They all lost their jobs, he's still there. His supporters tell us that Travers should be next in the pecking order. Well he got another go against New Zealand, but couldn't even be trusted to keep the ball out of the net for 20 minutes, leaving a gap as wide as the Dodder for the equaliser. What league does he play in???