Netherlands V Republic of Ireland - Saturday, 18 November 2023 - Euro 2024 Qualifier

[placid casual]

Collins is an utterly woefull footballer and has somehow managed to steal a way into an english premier league squad.
These players have no incentive to improve as they continue to get picked irrespective of how $h1t they clearly are

[jbyrne]

These players have no incentive to improve as they continue to get picked irrespective of how $h1t they clearly are

nonsence. collins was hooked at ht against greece and then dropped

[elatedscum]

Really missing genuine pace to trouble the Dutch: Ogbene in particular, Obafemi, Ebosele

Scales has been good. Big recurring issue for me is how often theres a player making a good and he doesn’t receive the pass, instead a more conservative pass is made

[joey B]

Brilliant goal line clearance from Gakpo there!

[SkStu]

I know the Dutch are a good team but this is a hard watch. There’s absolutely nothing about us at all. Can’t even get a foot on the ball.

[elatedscum]

Great tackle by McGrath

[pineapple stu]

nonsence. collins was hooked at ht against greece and then dropped

Yep. The alternative is Duffy, and there'd be complaints about him starting too

[passinginterest]

First 10 second half was just a continuation of last 10 first half. Couldn’t get near them. The offside goal from Idah seemed to at least restore a bit of confidence and it has been better since.

[elatedscum]

Need to make changes in midfield. I’d do all of Browne, Cullen and Knight for Moran, Molumby and Johnston

[pineapple stu]

12-0 France now

I think Germany 13-0 San Marino is the record for a qualifier in Europe? (Euros or World Cup)

[pineapple stu]

Parrott on for injury time? Not sure how much impact that change will have...

(Famous last words?)

[elatedscum]

Thought Bazunu was really good overall - could he have done better for the goal? Mikey Johnston looked lively. Despite the doom and gloom and frustration, Collins was probably fouled for their goal - and Idah was a centimetre or two away from scoring a good goal. Doesn’t feel great right now

[seanfhear]

Out with a Whimper.

[JR89]

Bit pointless to be in Norway yesterday and in Holland today, no?

Agree the FAI shouldn't (and obviously didn't) be interfering in those matters

Well it definitely was pointless to have him in Holland tonight anyway. I would have left him play in Norway last night and then join up with the seniors back in Dublin tomorrow.

[Fixer82]

Really silly to take him from an important U21s game for a dead rubber senior match.
I imagine the U21 manager is livid

[Calcio Jack]

Kenny is lucky that treason isn’t still a hanging offence ….. his tenure makes me want to puke

[pineapple stu]

Thought Bazunu was really good overall - could he have done better for the goal? Mikey Johnston looked lively. Despite the doom and gloom and frustration, Collins was probably fouled for their goal - and Idah was a centimetre or two away from scoring a good goal. Doesn’t feel great right now
Bazunu did well - probably our best player. Goal was one he could maybe have done better for but he made up for it over the rest of the game. Bit lucky with the one that went through his hands and his thumbs (?) touched it into the post.

Idah was on for 50 minutes including injury time and touched the ball nine times. I think that says a lot about the game. We just had nothing up front really. Probably a mix of poor forwards and players not able to get the ball to them. Holland were comfortable enough dealing with us, and we got worse as the game went on (as usual)

Malen should have scored when clean through but had a woeful touch. Think they made a hames of another good chance too.

Ultimately, probably as decent as I was expecting though, to be quite honest. Even if the Dutch were missing a few players. There's games to slate Kenny over and I don't feel this is one. (It doesn't redeem him either of course)

Nerdy question - but can anyone remember our keeper going up for a setpiece in injury time before?

[tetsujin1979]

Worst qualifying campaign ever
1726319864422502413

[SkStu]

Out with a Whimper.

The Dutch never had to get out of first gear while we were sputtering in second.

[elatedscum]

Bazunu did well - probably our best player. Goal was one he could maybe have done better for but he made up for it over the rest of the game. Bit lucky with the one that went through his hands and his thumbs (?) touched it into the post.

Idah was on for 50 minutes including injury time and touched the ball nine times. I think that says a lot about the game. We just had nothing up front really. Probably a mix of poor forwards and players not able to get the ball to them. Holland were comfortable enough dealing with us, and we got worse as the game went on (as usual)

Malen should have scored when clean through but had a woeful touch. Think they made a hames of another good chance too.

Ultimately, probably as decent as I was expecting though, to be quite honest. Even if the Dutch were missing a few players. There's games to slate Kenny over and I don't feel this is one. (It doesn't redeem him either of course)

Nerdy question - but can anyone remember our keeper going up for a setpiece in injury time before?

I feel like Shay did it once, maybe against France?

[Paddy Garcia]

Terrible Dutch team
No tactics, energy or belief
If Molumby is the answer , I don't know what the question is
We have always been more than the sum of our parts, now we are less
I'm a huge fan of the Leagie of Ireland, and have to concede that the LOI fans have given Kenny far more leeway than any other manager would have received.
Kenny has not only damaged this generations prospects, but the next too.
Never thought I'd see incompetence to rival Stan, but there you go.....

[seanfhear]

Collins was shocking for the goal. He has not progressed at all, and has probably regressed.

Liam Scales looks a better player than him at the moment.

[sbgawa]

At least we won't have to watch him stumbling and rambling through another post match interview. He makes Harry kane look like brendan beehan

[Paddy Garcia]

Collins was shocking for the goal. He has not progressed at all, and has probably regressed.


Fair, also his shirt was pulled & not a word from anyone, might expect RTE to maybe mention!

[EalingGreen]

Collins was shocking for the goal. He has not progressed at all, and has probably regressed.
After each game, Brentford fans vote in a Man of the Match poll, with NC currently 4th on the list. Having seen a few of their games this season I'd agree with that, notwithstanding that he had a bit of a blip around the defeat to Everton:
https://griffinpark.org/forums/threads/man-of-the-match-23-24-season.139586/

While The Athletic's Brentford correspondent also agrees:
https://theathletic.com/5031602/2023/11/06/brentfords-nathan-collins-is-just-getting-started-theres-so-much-potential-in-him/?source=dailyemail&campaign=601983

Perhaps the problem is not so much the player as the environment when he reports for international duty?

[nigel-harps1954]

Holland's shooting is a bit wayward but I think it's half decent so far.


Feel like I've jumped back 20 years with this statement.

[third policeman]

After each game, Brentford fans vote in a Man of the Match poll, with NC currently 4th on the list. Having seen a few of their games this season I'd agree with that, notwithstanding that he had a bit of a blip around the defeat to Everton:
https://griffinpark.org/forums/threads/man-of-the-match-23-24-season.139586/

While The Athletic's Brentford correspondent also agrees:
https://theathletic.com/5031602/2023/11/06/brentfords-nathan-collins-is-just-getting-started-theres-so-much-potential-in-him/?source=dailyemail&campaign=601983

Perhaps the problem is not so much the player as the environment when he reports for international duty?

Absolutely right. He’s probably our second best player in terms of ability and potential. The fact that he struggles in a Kenny team is a comment on Kenny. Maybe he expects coherence, structure, a tactical plan. Ferguson also looks lost when playing for Ireland. The fact he can’t get consistent levels from our best players really exposes his weaknesses.

[Predator]

Nathan Collins getting easily spun by Wout Weghorst for the goal and then passing the ball to no one shortly after is absolutely not the fault of Stephen Kenny.

It was a poor performance overall and reminded me a bit of the performance against France, where we were second to every ball in midfield. The Dutch dominated possession and the fact they had 19 shots overall to our 3 (?) tells the story. Gavin Bazunu performed well, but it was hard to find any bright spots otherwise.

[ifk101]

Think the (quality of) coaching/ organisation needs to be questioned again imo. There was either too much space between our lines or our lines collapse on top of each other. The goal is an example of too much space, our back line should be on the half line there to close and compress space to make it difficult to play through us (maybe could look at Collins here as the organiser of the backline?). As was, it took a simple forward pass to pull us apart which happened on several occasions. For the shot Bazunu spilled onto the post, we had eight players fall back onto to 18-yard line which allowed the shot as we had dropped too deep to block it. This inviting of shots from distance is a recurring problem.

[CSAD]

When Collins and Ferguson look anonymous/poor in you're side you know its on the manager/coaches.

[Jd2793]

id be kind of worried at this stage about collins. hes on a bit of a slide over the past 12 months. surprised at the reaction to bazunu. thought he should have done much better for the goal. collins incredibly poor for it mind you

[mark12345]

"Mikey Johnson looked lively. ' Yes he did and I would think that most Irish fans were left wondering why he wasn't in the starting line up. SK has done very little right during his tenure, but Johnson is one of his success stories. And in his curtain call game as manager Kenny leaves one of his most lethal weapons on the bench? Difficult to understand.

[mark12345]

You touch on a good point. It is the change of environment when Collins and others report for international duty. They must all feel that they are going from ultra professionalism to amateurism. The glory of representing your county is the motivation but the players surely must feel a lack of leadership and a certain air of defeatism about the place.

[Insidetherock]

The next guy needs to turn Collins into a six.. because as long as Cullen is anchoring that midfield, we're screwed..

Burnley have finally realised it and dropped him..

[mark12345]

Everything you say is true, but the fact remains that we are arguably the worst team in Europe in terms of creativity. Josh Cullen could not build a paper plane, never mind a decent attacking move. And how far removed from the midfield conversation is Jack Byrne? Not very far I would suggest.

[JR89]

"Mikey Johnson looked lively. ' Yes he did and I would think that most Irish fans were left wondering why he wasn't in the starting line up. SK has done very little right during his tenure, but Johnson is one of his success stories. And in his curtain call game as manager Kenny leaves one of his most lethal weapons on the bench? Difficult to understand.

Cause he played 25mins of football all season for Celtic and can't even make match day squads. If Johnston started and underperformed Kenny would be getting it in the neck for starting someone who isn't making match day squad at club level.

With Ogbene out think he was gonna get criticised no matter who he picked (bar Andy Moran maybe) to replace him had they underperformed. Robinson gets a lot of stick, Idah/Ferguson combo didn't work against Greece, and Johnston can't make a squad for Celtic.

[Predator]

This talk about the environment being "amateurish" or that it is holding back players like Ferguson and Collins doesn't stack with reality. In fact, it's contradicted by the players themselves at every turn. For example, Matt Doherty delivered an impassioned defence of how well coached they are last night. Collins and others have been similarly glowing about Stephen Kenny, Keith Andrews and the coaching team. Daryl Horgan talked about how brilliant John O'Shea, Damien Duff, Anthony Barry and Andrews were, with their attention to detail and personalities.

For whatever reason, the training pitch work Doherty referenced is not showing when it matters. A consistent issue is how poorly prepared the team is when the ball is turned over and it's primarily because Kenny wants them to commit bodies forward. When we lost the ball for the goal yesterday, seven Irish players were in the Dutch half. The LCB Liam Scales was much higher up the pitch than LWB Ryan Manning. Collins and O'Shea were then left man-for-man with an ocean of space behind them. One pass to Weghorst was enough to open the defence up. It's too easy. When it comes down to it, individual moments and decision-making are crucial when you play that high-risk approach. Collins needed to win the ball or stop Weghorst - he did neither and that part is on him. The defence was left utterly exposed in the breakdown and Weghorst did brilliantly to turn him.

To some of us - and certainly Kenny! - the idea of dropping off in these situations, not committing as many players forward or playing a slightly deeper line is heresy, but it arguably would have helped stop that type of goal. We've shown a defensive naivety that was certainly not present during the MON and Mick years. It's no surprise in some respects given how many relatively inexperienced players are now in the team.

[JR89]

This talk about the environment being "amateurish" or that it is holding back players like Ferguson and Collins doesn't stack with reality. In fact, it's contradicted by the players themselves at every turn. For example, Matt Doherty delivered an impassioned defence of how well coached they are last night. Collins and others have been similarly glowing about Stephen Kenny, Keith Andrews and the coaching team. Daryl Horgan talked about how brilliant John O'Shea, Damien Duff, Anthony Barry and Andrews were, with their attention to detail and personalities.

For whatever reason, the training pitch work Doherty referenced is not showing when it matters. A consistent issue is how poorly prepared the team is when the ball is turned over and it's primarily because Kenny wants them to commit bodies forward. When we lost the ball for the goal yesterday, seven Irish players were in the Dutch half. The LCB Liam Scales was much higher up the pitch than LWB Ryan Manning. Collins and O'Shea were then left man-for-man with an ocean of space behind them. One pass to Weghorst was enough to open the defence up. It's too easy. When it comes down to it, individual moments and decision-making are crucial when you play that high-risk approach. Collins needed to win the ball or stop Weghorst - he did neither and that part is on him. The defence was left utterly exposed in the breakdown and Weghorst did brilliantly to turn him.

To some of us - and certainly Kenny! - the idea of dropping off in these situations, not committing as many players forward or playing a slightly deeper line is heresy, but it arguably would have helped stop that type of goal. We've shown a defensive naivety that was certainly not present during the MON and Mick years. It's no surprise in some respects given how many relatively inexperienced players are now in the team.

Just further shows how poor the production line has been when it comes to players born between the years '92 and '98. There's no leaders in that team around the 27/28/29 age mark and when you look at Scotland they've got that with Robertson, McGinn, McGregor, McTominay, and Tierney.

Dara O'Shea whose the oldest of the "Kenny's Kids" as we'll call them will only be turning 25 this March. In four years our young players will be in around those ages and you hope some of them become team leaders for Ireland like those listed for Scotland.

[CSAD]

The next guy needs to turn Collins into a six.. because as long as Cullen is anchoring that midfield, we're screwed..

Burnley have finally realised it and dropped him..


They didnt drop him, he was unavailable.

[SkStu]

The next guy needs to turn Collins into a six.. because as long as Cullen is anchoring that midfield, we're screwed..

Burnley have finally realised it and dropped him..

We’ve so much strength in depth at CB and lack of same in midfield, this has to start being a realistic and better option. Hard for an international manager to experiment with that as it carries some risk if it goes pear shaped (remember Christie?!) - although that is what friendlies are for…

edit: meant to add, not seeing the best from Cullen - slows everything down and a complete sideways merchant.

[Insidetherock]

They didnt drop him, he was unavailable.

He was on the bench.. and never came on

Cullen is going to turn out to be a fantastic Championship holding midfielder, but he'll not make it at Prem level

[JR89]

Think Cullen will be fine once the next manager comes in and can make us solid again. Wouldn't judge some of our defensive players too harshly over the last 12 or so months. Especially this campaign. When you're so open to play against and have a tactically inept manager it spells disaster. Which is basically what this campaign was.

But we really need someone with a bit of passing range to play in midfield next to him cause he's not going to be the ball playing midfielder we need.

Someone that can pass between the lines a la Moran for his assist for Szmodics last goal but he's not gonna play deep, or has the passing range of pinging passes 60 yards a la Luca Connell but don't know how his medical issues might set him back.

[CSAD]

He was on the bench.. and never came on

Cullen is going to turn out to be a fantastic Championship holding midfielder, but he'll not make it at Prem level

He was suspended for one game and then just kept a settled side for the next game. Considering he's started all bar 1 game this season that he was available for suggests he is still a starter.

Well he is a premiership holding midfielder because he's doing now currently isnt he!

[EalingGreen]

Interesting comment from SK post game: "The Republic of Ireland have never won an away game against a tier one team in history..."

"Surely not?" I thought. But looking back on it, if you discount a couple of wins away to England in the British Championship, NI have only managed it twice (I think) in competitive games, vs Spain and West Germany, with the last of those in 1983!

I suppose SK got it right when he added: "and it's because it's very hard."

[Diggs246]

Stephen doesn't get to define what is a tier 1 country is
Mon beat Austria, wales and Italy in the euros

Stephen has embarrassed himself and what worse our country.

[ifk101]

To quote Richie Sadlier "There is no point going over what he said or analysing his mood, or pick apart what he said or deems as important. We're at the point now where we're ready to move on."

[EalingGreen]

Stephen doesn't get to define what is a tier 1 country is
Mon beat Austria, wales and Italy in the euros

Stephen has embarrassed himself and what worse our country.I discounted Austria , whom NI beat 2-1 in Vienna in the Euro's in 1994. Also Wales, on the basis that The Bale Years excepted, they've hardly ever done anything on the world scale. (I mean, both NI and ROI have more impressive overall records than them).

As for your two wins against Italy, they were both at neutral venues, so maybe don't count as "away"?

[Insidetherock]

Interesting comment from SK post game: "The Republic of Ireland have never won an away game against a tier one team in history..."

"Surely not?" I thought. But looking back on it, if you discount a couple of wins away to England in the British Championship, NI have only managed it twice (I think) in competitive games, vs Spain and West Germany, with the last of those in 1983!

I suppose SK got it right when he added: "and it's because it's very hard."

He's right.. and in fairness he got an absolute dog of a group, basically getting the top ranked team in Pot 1, 2 and 4.. I mean talk about the footballing God's being against you..

But what did for him were two woefully inept performances against Greece in this campaign, and losing against Armenia last NL campaign

The Luxembourg loss was also a kick in the stones

No one who's honest expected Ireland to finish ahead of France and Holland... but the **** poor NL campaign had killed the play off opportunity even before the draw was made.. we really need to fully understand how important NL is in terms of seedings for World Cups, and seeding plus play offs for Euros.. and you still have people thinking they are glorified friendly games.. finish 2nd in your Nations League group and you're almost guaranteed a play off spot in the Euros

Though watch next time, we'll likely end up with England, Ukraine and Georgia.. when we could end up with Wales, Iceland, Kazakhstan

Looking at the teams coming up, Greece, Georgia and Turkey are all fourth seeds.. would we fancy beating any of them?

Unless we improve quickly, we'll be in the C path fairly rapidly

[Jolly Red Giant]

Interesting comment from SK post game: "The Republic of Ireland have never won an away game against a tier one team in history..."

"Surely not?" I thought. But looking back on it, if you discount a couple of wins away to England in the British Championship, NI have only managed it twice (I think) in competitive games, vs Spain and West Germany, with the last of those in 1983!

I suppose SK got it right when he added: "and it's because it's very hard."

Kenny was engaging in semantics - maybe instead of trawling back through 100 years of results he should have focused on the upcoming game.

The defence was a shambles all game - and it has been like that since Kenny took over - that is on the manager.

When you can't figure out how to get the ball to your best player - that is on the manager.

And I could keep going

And the guff by Doherty about how great training sessions are actually exposes the incompetence of Kenny and the coaching staff in match situations.

Even the free kick when it was passed sideways for someone to have a shot (can't remember who it was) showed incompetence - if you are going to do that you do not pack all your players into the box in front of the goal - you spread them out so there are gaps - and secondly, you have players running towards the free kick taker to drag defenders away from where the ball will be travelling towards the goal.

Last point - Bazunu was excellent last night - and had zero fault for the goal. As I said before - give any striker worth his salt time to set up and pick his spot and he will bury the ball - there was nobody within yards of Weighorst when he hit it.

[Jolly Red Giant]

He's right.. and in fairness he got an absolute dog of a group, basically getting the top ranked team in Pot 1, 2 and 4.. I mean talk about the footballing God's being against you..

But what did for him were two woefully inept performances against Greece in this campaign, and losing against Armenia last NL campaign

The Luxembourg loss was also a kick in the stones

No one who's honest expected Ireland to finish ahead of France and Holland... but the **** poor NL campaign had killed the play off opportunity even before the draw was made.. we really need to fully understand how important NL is in terms of seedings for World Cups, and seeding plus play offs for Euros.. and you still have people thinking they are glorified friendly games.. finish 2nd in your Nations League group and you're almost guaranteed a play off spot in the Euros

Though watch next time, we'll likely end up with England, Ukraine and Georgia.. when we could end up with Wales, Iceland, Kazakhstan

Looking at the teams coming up, Greece, Georgia and Turkey are all fourth seeds.. would we fancy beating any of them?

Unless we improve quickly, we'll be in the C path fairly rapidly

I disagree - Holland were there for the taking in Dublin and were there for the taking last night - this is a very poor Holland team - France hammered them 4-0 at home and barely broke a sweat when beating them away. 4 points from those two games was entirely possible - as was beating Greece at home. That would be an extra seven points and a massive shift in momentum.

Would we fancy beating Greece, Georgia and Turkey - yes we should and if we don't serious questions should be asked of any manager.

Remember Kenny's six competitive wins were Gibraltar x2, Scotland, Armenia, Luxembourg and Azerbaijan - his competitive losses included Finland x2, Wales, Luxembourg (at home), Ukraine, Scotland, Greece x2 and a bad Holland team x2.