The One That Got Away?

[SkStu]

Drawing inspiration from a couple of articles i read recently about Mark Noble hanging up his boots and his relationship to an Ireland call-up, it got me thinking... who are the ones that got away? The multi-eligible players that would have changed us at whatever moment in time that was... there's a long list to choose from, no doubt, but lets hear your top 3 and why... (and drawing inspiration from my exchange with OTOH re Robbie Keane in another thread, rank them :D - who is the number one that got away?)

1. Trevor Sinclair: dynamic playing off the left or right wing and one of those flair players who also played for the team. Scorer of one of the best goals ive ever seen, that overhead kick from a million yards out in the FA Cup. Would have shored up a problem position for us from the end of Jacks reign right through to the WC02 where he represented England. Wanted to play for us too but rules at the time prevented a switch. Mum was from Sligo.

2. Jack Grealish: this one hurts because of the impact he would be making over the last 3-4 years for us. A game changer. Agonisingly close, this one hurt because he was so close to his Irish family and i thought he was a sure fire thing. His departure didnt bristle as much as the bould Declan's though (*spits*).

3. Martin Keown: one of the rocks that the Arsenal defence was built on and would have hit his peak when perhaps our defence under Jack was beginning to look way too slow. Winners mentality too. Irish mother (Wicklow, i thin) and nordy father (Fermanagh). WTF. *spits*

Theres a whole bunch of others who could make it too depending on how close they were or how closely connected... ive tried to pick those that were fairly well connected and close but feel free to add whoever you want :D (Scholes, Kane, Rooney)

[Razors left peg]

Harry Kane, has to be up there, especially when he actually played underage for us

[nigel-harps1954]

Paul Scholes. Imagine having him and Roy Keane running the midfield together.

[pineapple stu]

Harry Kane, has to be up there, especially when he actually played underage for us
Did Kane play underage for us? Wiki doesn't agree.

I'd lump Steve Bruce in with Martin Keown; Bruce turned us down because of the three-foreigner rule in Europe and the impact it would have on Man United. (Remember them playing their sub keeper in Barcelona and losing 4-0?)

Though in fairness we were never short of centre-backs. An attacking loss like Grealish is a bigger blow. (Scholes I think was never going to play for Ireland, so he doesn't feel like "one who got away")

Hopefully we don't have to revisit this thread in the coming days to add Obafemi to it...

[elatedscum]

Steven Gerrard is the one if you’re talking anyone eligible.

In terms of proximity, it’s probably Declan Rice. Martin O’Neill just needed to use him against Moldova. Was an easy call up and cap.

Other names that come to mind: Pat Bamford, Wayne Rooney, James Milner, Reece James, Barry Kane, Gary Cahill, Andy Robertson

Future ones may perhaps be: Liam Delap, Louie Barry, Conor Bradley

[ontheotherhand]

Gazza!

[SkStu]

I didnt know that Reece James was eligible actually! And your reference to Gary Cahill reminds me of Tim Cahill. Another dynamic player (box to box midfielder and/or striker) that the team would have really benefitted from at the time. Paddy Bamford is a good call.

I also think P-Stu hits the nail on the head... people rightfully tout the likes of Scholes and Kane but they never really felt connected. There was never really a whole lot of dialogue about the possibility (before or after) like with some of the others...

[pineapple stu]

I suppose given Will Keane actually is playing for us, surely Michael has to count!

Played for us at 17s and 19s.

[Razors left peg]

Did Kane play underage for us? Wiki doesn't agree.

I'd lump Steve Bruce in with Martin Keown; Bruce turned us down because of the three-foreigner rule in Europe and the impact it would have on Man United. (Remember them playing their sub keeper in Barcelona and losing 4-0?)

Though in fairness we were never short of centre-backs. An attacking loss like Grealish is a bigger blow. (Scholes I think was never going to play for Ireland, so he doesn't feel like "one who got away")

Hopefully we don't have to revisit this thread in the coming days to add Obafemi to it...

Im pretty sure I seen a picture of him recently in an Ireland jersey from u15s or something, was in the last week or 2.... or I dreamed it!!!

[elatedscum]

I didnt know that Reece James was eligible actually!

my memory is, there was an article in the athletic - a long piece (maybe towards the end of the 19/20 season). Could be his mother is irish, can’t remember exactly. It also mentioned his sister was playing for Man Utd and was a former youth England player.

[elatedscum]

Jude Bellingham’s eligible through grandparents. His father is English born but considers himself Irish - i suspect he’ll be another good one.

Ethan Ampadu is another one. His father Kwame was an ireland u21 and Liam Brady has talked about the FAI being slow to try bring Ethan into the fold.

Kalvin Phillips was reportedly ready to accept an irish call up and there was communication through the 19/20 season between the fai and his agent and family when Leeds were in the championship. He’d never been capped at any underage level by England.

Southgate got wind of it and called him up, before he’d made his premier league debut, despite saying the championship wasn’t a good enough level to be in the England squad less than a year earlier when explaining his decision not to pick Jack Grealish.

James Maddison was also ireland eligible, good creative footballer. Would probably be our best player. Was similarly allegedly considering a switch before Southgate called him up

[Eirambler]

Andy Robertson and John McGinn were eligible too. But I'm not sure how many of these players really did get away. Just because they were maybe eligible doesn't mean they ever had any real interest in playing for us. It's like saying Gavin Bazunu is one that got away for Nigeria, but he isn't really because he's Irish.

The Grealish family, for what it's worth, were clear from the start that he was only with Ireland "at the moment". And Maddison and Phillips clearly used it to engineer England caps to push up their own values in club contract negotiations. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it had turned out neither was eligible when it came down to it.

[seanfhear]

Southgate believes in closing the gate before the player bolts.

[ColourfulPeanut]

Southgate is constantly capping dual eligible players as soon he can. Some Irish fans look down on the it when we do it, but it's definitely something we should do when possible. They learned their lesson with Zaha. Tomori, Guehi and Maddison all on 1 or 2 caps now. Rumblings they're losing Nketiah now as well, wouldn't be surprised to see him get a call up this month.

[Trequartista20]

Darren Fletcher has an Irish mother and there was talk of Keane influencing him and his declaring for for us before he was capped by Scotland. What an addition he would have been.

Ampadu seems like a pretty glaring failure on behalf of the FAI; no world-beater but just the kind of cultured defensive midfielder we are crying out for.

I agree that Conor Bradley is one we could come to rue missing out on. From a Tyrone Nationalist background and played GAA growing up.

[jbyrne]

Southgate is constantly capping dual eligible players as soon he can. Some Irish fans look down on the it when we do it, but it's definitely something we should do when possible. They learned their lesson with Zaha. Tomori, Guehi and Maddison all on 1 or 2 caps now. Rumblings they're losing Nketiah now as well, wouldn't be surprised to see him get a call up this month.

england have the luxury of being able to do so when they are 5 nil up against latvia. we rarely have such a luxury.
caps shouldn't be given out so cheaply anyway

[ColourfulPeanut]

Wales are in the similar position as us and they manage to blood their dual eligible young players very easily and avoid the nonsense. Not saying throw on 15 year olds for 2mins in a play-off match, but there's an acceptable middle ground to accelerate dual national players through the system.

Look at Brennan Johnson. They capped him at 19 in a Nations League game and any debate was instantly killed, even though he's a serious prospect.

[jbyrne]

Wales are in the similar position as us and they manage to blood their dual eligible young players very easily and avoid the nonsense. Not saying throw on 15 year olds for 2mins in a play-off match, but there's an acceptable middle ground to accelerate dual national players through the system.

Look at Brennan Johnson. They capped him at 19 in a Nations League game and any debate was instantly killed, even though he's a serious prospect.

i don't think its nonsense. they either want to play for us or they don't. if they want to then they will wait until the cap is fully merited. simple as that with me

[Diggs246]

Martin Keown and Steve Bruce were ones we were unlucky not to get
Keown didn't think he would play as we had superb players at the time and Bruce played an England B game and was deemed ineligible

[passinginterest]

i don't think its nonsense. they either want to play for us or they don't. if they want to then they will wait until the cap is fully merited. simple as that with me

I think it's probably a lot more complicated than that. Sometimes it's a lot easier for a younger player to be committed to playing for us and to be happy to be capped. As they get a bit older and hype grows and agents and management teams start getting in their ears, that's when the doubts and the danger of holding out for a more high profile country comes into it. I think both Grealish and Rice were more than happy to play for us and if they had gotten the full caps when the opportunity was there I expect they'd have been happy to take them and wouldn't have any regrets. We waited a bit too long, the agents got to them and they held out for the earnings boost from an England cap.

[Eirambler]

Grealish was never going to play for us at senior level unless it became clear he was out of the picture for England. The Rice one is a bit unclear, hard to say if he would have taken a senior cap.

Ultimately these are English lads who wanted to play for England as their first choice. The real ones that will get away in future will be Irish born and raised players that choose other countries despite being good enough to play for us. I can't think of any cases where that has happened yet, the likes of Zayed and Lopes weren't good enough for Ireland.

[tetsujin1979]

Martin Keown and Steve Bruce were ones we were unlucky not to get
Keown didn't think he would play as we had superb players at the time and Bruce played an England B game and was deemed ineligible
Keown was asked about this before. He said his father asked him to play for England so they could give something back to the country that has given him a home, job, family, etc.

[pineapple stu]

Bruce's wiki has a slightly different line on his reasons for turning us down than I or Diggs have given -


Bruce states in his autobiography that further investigation revealed that, while his earlier appearance for England B in a friendly was not an issue, his appearances for the England Youth team in a UEFA-sanctioned tournament prohibited him from playing for the senior team of another country. He has subsequently claimed that he chose not to play for Ireland as it would have caused problems for his club at a time when UEFA restricted the number of foreign players that a club could have in their squad in its competitions.

[Kingdom]

3. Martin Keown: one of the rocks that the Arsenal defence was built on and would have hit his peak when perhaps our defence under Jack was beginning to look way too slow. Winners mentality too. Irish mother (Wicklow, i thin) and nordy father (Fermanagh). WTF. *spits*

To quote MOM, "both Protestant strongholds!"

Great OP stu.

[Kingdom]

england have the luxury of being able to do so when they are 5 nil up against latvia. we rarely have such a luxury.
caps shouldn't be given out so cheaply anyway

Agreed, and I'm not so sure how I feel about capping someone who is obviously so stupid as to not understand the reason why they are being capped in the first place.

Trevor Sinclair, given a lot of what I've read from him in the past 12 months or so, is a great shout.

[Kingdom]

Keown was asked about this before. He said his father asked him to play for England so they could give something back to the country that has given him a home, job, family, etc.

It's called tax isn't it?

[ColourfulPeanut]

Agreed, and I'm not so sure how I feel about capping someone who is obviously so stupid as to not understand the reason why they are being capped in the first place.

Trevor Sinclair, given a lot of what I've read from him in the past 12 months or so, is a great shout.
We're not trying to trick them into cap tying them. They're well aware and it's giving them the chance to put the story to rest, just like Obafemi did at the time. The Rice situation should have been put to bed well before he mad 3 friendly caps. Make him decide in the Moldova game and move on if he refuses.

In terms of players who genuinely got away, surely Tim Cahill is up there? He probably would have committed to us in 2002 if the rules at the time had allowed.

[osarusan]

i don't think its nonsense. they either want to play for us or they don't. if they want to then they will wait until the cap is fully merited. simple as that with me

Do we really have the luxury of waiting?

Yes, it's nice to let them make up their minds, and know that they are playing for us because they are really committed...but it'd also be nice to have Declan Rice in our midfield. And once they're capped and locked in...they're committed.

[EalingGreen]

Wales are in the similar position as us and they manage to blood their dual eligible young players very easily and avoid the nonsense. Not saying throw on 15 year olds for 2mins in a play-off match, but there's an acceptable middle ground to accelerate dual national players through the system.
Actually Wales are much more subtle/less cynical than that.

When Ossian Roberts was in charge of development at the FAW, he would routinely advise dual-qualified youngsters to go along should they get called up by the FA.

He knew that when they were at St.Georges Park they'd see that they were just a number amongst many, whereas with Wales they'd get personal attention and (if good enough) a fast-track towards senior football. While those who did revert to England were no real loss, since they'd probably have gone at a later date anyhow (if good enough).

Wales qualifying for tournament finals recently must have helped as well, the same as it was easier eg for Big Jack to persuade Anglo's and Scots etc when you were qualifying regularly.



Look at Brennan Johnson. They capped him at 19 in a Nations League game and any debate was instantly killed, even though he's a serious prospect.BJ's dad David is a dual-qualified former international himself (also his Agent).
Therefore the player will not have lacked for sound advice if Wales were playing games with him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Johnson_(footballer,_born_1976)

[EalingGreen]

Keown was asked about this before. He said his father asked him to play for England so they could give something back to the country that has given him a home, job, family, etc.
Reminiscent of the example of "Gentleman" Johnny Carey:

"At the outbreak of the second World War Carey adopted a highly principled position. He could have chosen to return to neutral Ireland for the duration of the war but instead he decided that '...a country that gives me my living is worth fighting for.' He joined the British army and was posted to both Italy and North Africa."
http://www.soccer-ireland.com/manchester-united/johnny-carey.htm

[Razors left peg]

Grealish was never going to play for us at senior level unless it became clear he was out of the picture for England. The Rice one is a bit unclear, hard to say if he would have taken a senior cap.



Ehhhh..... he took 3 of them!

[seanfhear]

Ehhhh..... he took 3 of them!
3 Take-Aways ! ! !

[Olé Olé]

Ehhhh..... he took 3 of them!

And subsequently ****ed into them on a couple of opportunities.

[Eirambler]

Ehhhh..... he took 3 of them!

Of course yeah the friendlies - Sorry, I meant a competitive one that would have tied him to us.

[Eirambler]

Just thinking about this in the context of the current squad - I think the answer to SkStu's question is actually Jamal Lewis.

24 years old, English born, mother from Belfast, middle name is Piaras (Irish for Pierce/Percy), plays left back/left wing back, ex sprinter, Newcastle paid £15m for him.

Played for NI from a young enough age, so was never really on the radar, but being born in 1998, he could easily have been one of Kenny's Kids at left back in his under 21 team and would (once back from his long term injury) probably by now be our starting left wing back.

[zero]

Just thinking about this in the context of the current squad - I think the answer to SkStu's question is actually Jamal Lewis.

24 years old, English born, mother from Belfast, middle name is Piaras (Irish for Pierce/Percy), plays left back/left wing back, ex sprinter, Newcastle paid £15m for him.

Played for NI from a young enough age, so was never really on the radar, but being born in 1998, he could easily have been one of Kenny's Kids at left back in his under 21 team and would (once back from his long term injury) probably by now be our starting left wing back.

He's been really really poor at newcastle though. One of the worst signings in recent history - looked all at sea defensively, out of his depth. I think he needs a move to get his career back on track as I don't see him troubling the Newcastle first team.

Matt Targett has been signed after a successful loan spell so Lewis is very much second or even third choice left back.

[boovidge]

Taking into account whether or not there was ever a realistic chance of the player representing Ireland I think it has to be Rice, given how much he'd improve our poor team and the fact he actually won multiple senior caps for us. If it's just a simple question of best eligible player that didn't represent us then Rooney, Kane or Scholes.

[third policeman]

If it was a choice between Rice and Grealish, at present I'd have more regrets about losing Grealish. I think Collins may well become as good if not better than Rice, whilst we have no-one with the creativity and guile of Grealish. Can't actually stand either of them, but if we'd hung on to them we'd be at the World Cup now. In terms of best ever player we missed out on - Gerrard, without a question of a doubt. As a matter of interest is Maddison completely lost to us? I'm assuming his one England cap at whatever age he was at the time ties him to them. Pity, because he'll be lucky if he ever plays for them again.

[seanfhear]

Kevin Keegan and Paddy Crerand. I think Keegan said he had Irish Connections that could have made him eligible. Paddy Crerand definitely had.

[Eirambler]

Maddison's cap was in a qualifier and was after his 21st birthday so he's 100% tied to England.

[pineapple stu]

You wonder if you turn the question around, who's the best player to play for Ireland who on the face of it has been more likely to play for another country?

Steve Heighway and Ray Houghton are the two obvious ones. Michael Obafemi has the potential to be up there I think too. Aiden McGeady and James McCarthy I think irk the Scots (not sure on that though). James McClean and Shane Duffy have U21 caps for the North.

Have we had many players who've played underage for other countries (apart from the North) and then transferred across to us for senior level?

[tetsujin1979]

Ciaran Clark played for England at every level up to under 20, and captained the side.

I don't know if Heighway qualified to play for anyone else under the rules at the time. He was born in Dublin, and moved to England at a young age.

[third policeman]

Ciaran Clark played for England at every level up to under 20, and captained the side.

I don't know if Heighway qualified to play for anyone else under the rules at the time. He was born in Dublin, and moved to England at a young age.

I presume he had at least one English parent. I think we capped him after only a couple of Liverpool first team games so got him early. Lawrenson would definitely have got England caps.

[Razors left peg]

John Aldridge would have played for England for sure

[Eirambler]

Between Houghton, McCarthy and McGeady from Scotland, Duffy, McClean and a few more from the north and Kevin Sheedy from Wales, we've taken quite a few useful players from the other celtic teams over the years.

On the other hand, while people moan about Rice and Grealish, we've never really lost an Irish born player of note to another country, I can only think of players who wouldn't have been capped for us. That will probably happen in the next few years though and it will be interesting to see the reaction when it does.

[pineapple stu]

I don't know if Heighway qualified to play for anyone else under the rules at the time. He was born in Dublin, and moved to England at a young age.
Shay Brennan played for Ireland in 65 under the parentage rule, so Heighway could have played for England ten years later.

Edit - Sheedy's a great call of course

[Bungle]

I presume he had at least one English parent. I think we capped him after only a couple of Liverpool first team games so got him early. Lawrenson would definitely have got England caps.

Lawrenson was one of the best defenders in the world. He would have been a mainstay of the England defence for years. Absolutely amazing player. Feel him and to a far lesser
extent Beglin are forgotten about because they missed the good times. Both unlucky with injury.

We missed out on some players down the years though. Greaves right through to Keegan through toRooney and Kane. Gerrard Gazza and Scholes, Ferdinand or Keown. Adams could have played for us as well.

Met Alan Kennedy once when he was over for some Liverpool supporters thing as my mate is very involved with the supporters club. Not a Liverpool fan but just chatting about what a great team he played in afterwards. He talked about the Irish influence of Whelan Lawrenson and others and said him, Ray Kennedy and Sammy Lee could have played for us. Said Ronnie Whelan was the most loved player in the dressing room because he could control a game so well. Said a dirtier player than Souness though!

[seanfhear]

Lawrenson was one of the best defenders in the world. He would have been a mainstay of the England defence for years. Absolutely amazing player. Feel him and to a far lesser
extent Beglin are forgotten about because they missed the good times. Both unlucky with injury.

We missed out on some players down the years though. Greaves right through to Keegan through toRooney and Kane. Gerrard Gazza and Scholes, Ferdinand or Keown. Adams could have played for us as well.

Met Alan Kennedy once when he was over for some Liverpool supporters thing as my mate is very involved with the supporters club. Not a Liverpool fan but just chatting about what a great team he played in afterwards. He talked about the Irish influence of Whelan Lawrenson and others and said him, Ray Kennedy and Sammy Lee could have played for us. Said Ronnie Whelan was the most loved player in the dressing room because he could control a game so well. Said a dirtier player than Souness though!
Alan kennedy was kinda hardy himself. I was surprised Liverpool let him go to Newcastle ( i think ) coz I thought there was a few more good years left in him. Liverpool must have had a top class replacement ready in line which was the Liverpool way in those days.

[Bungle]

Alan kennedy was kinda hardy himself. I was surprised Liverpool let him go to Newcastle ( i think ) coz I thought there was a few more good years left in him. Liverpool must have had a top class replacement ready in line which was the Liverpool way in those days.

Top player he was. Lovely man.

Think he’s from that neck of the woods so might have just wanted to head home.

Ray Kennedy was an outstanding player. Think Ronnie Whelan replaced him at Liverpool but he could have been a great player for us in the 70s.

[seanfhear]

Top player he was. Lovely man.

Think he’s from that neck of the woods so might have just wanted to head home.

Ray Kennedy was an outstanding player. Think Ronnie Whelan replaced him at Liverpool but he could have been a great player for us in the 70s.
Ray Kennedy was a bit unusual in that he was a Striker at Arsenal and Liverpool converted him in to a very very good midfielder ~ ~ slightly unusual career progression at the age Ray kennedy was.