The One That Got Away?

[Olé Olé]

Between Houghton, McCarthy and McGeady from Scotland, Duffy, McClean and a few more from the north and Kevin Sheedy from Wales, we've taken quite a few useful players from the other celtic teams over the years.

On the other hand, while people moan about Rice and Grealish, we've never really lost an Irish born player of note to another country, I can only think of players who wouldn't have been capped for us. That will probably happen in the next few years though and it will be interesting to see the reaction when it does.

On the second point, I think the Nigerian influence on our team has been fantastic. We haven't lost a player to them and it's great. Obafemi and Ogbene are two with heavy connections - Ogbene being born there. Festy has two Nigerian parents two I think. Then you have Idah and Omobamidele and Bazunu with one and another Irish so less risk there. But it seems like players with Nigerian heritage are happy to stay with us. Exemplified too underage with more there e.g. Kayode and Armstrong and Odubeko and Adaramola etc.

We haven't lost a player to Nigeria yet I don't think and hopefully it continues.

[Eirambler]

On the second point, I think the Nigerian influence on our team has been fantastic. We haven't lost a player to them and it's great. Obafemi and Ogbene are two with heavy connections - Ogbene being born there. Festy has two Nigerian parents two I think. Then you have Idah and Omobamidele and Bazunu with one and another Irish so less risk there. But it seems like players with Nigerian heritage are happy to stay with us. Exemplified too underage with more there e.g. Kayode and Armstrong and Odubeko and Adaramola etc.

We haven't lost a player to Nigeria yet I don't think and hopefully it continues.

Yes, the Nigerian influence has been a brilliant addition (due in no small part to our lax citizenship laws of the 1990s and early 2000s!). As we saw with Ogbene it's one thing to want to play for Nigeria and a whole other thing to actually play for them. In practice the numbers they have to pick from, the travel distance etc. makes it easy enough for a player who is dual qualified to go with Ireland.

Unfortunately where the issue will arise is when the first Irish born generation of mid 2000s onwards Central/Eastern European dual nationals come through. It will be much easier for them to choose their parents' country of birth over Ireland and I expect quite a few will do that.

[elatedscum]

Yes, the Nigerian influence has been a brilliant addition (due in no small part to our lax citizenship laws of the 1990s and early 2000s!). As we saw with Ogbene it's one thing to want to play for Nigeria and a whole other thing to actually play for them. In practice the numbers they have to pick from, the travel distance etc. makes it easy enough for a player who is dual qualified to go with Ireland.

Unfortunately where the issue will arise is when the first Irish born generation of mid 2000s onwards Central/Eastern European dual nationals come through. It will be much easier for them to choose their parents' country of birth over Ireland and I expect quite a few will do that.

Repeal the 27th Amendment!

[Fixer82]

Steve Heighway was born in Ireland to English parents and they moved back to UK soon after. Not sure he ever felt Irish but he qualified for us. He 100% would’ve been eligible for England.

Interestingly, I’m reading McAteer’s book and his grandfather was from Co. Down. Not sure how that qualified him for us at the time in 1994

[tetsujin1979]

It's a good read, isn't it? Became a professional footballer almost by accident

[Fixer82]

It's a good read, isn't it? Became a professional footballer almost by accident

Yeah. Very entertaining as McAteer generally is. Although some of his memories of big matches are not quite right. He should’ve used YouTube to confirm his memories

[pineapple stu]

Steve Heighway was born in Ireland to English parents and they moved back to UK soon after. Not sure he ever felt Irish but he qualified for us. He 100% would’ve been eligible for England.
He was here until age ten apparently (linked here earlier). Way longer than I thought

[Fixer82]

He was here until age ten apparently (linked here earlier). Way longer than I thought

Wow. Much longer than I thought too

[pineapple stu]

His dad was working for Busáras. But he says he never really felt Irish alright, so strange in a way we got him when he was eligible for England (and was quite good)

[Eirambler]

Steve Heighway was born in Ireland to English parents and they moved back to UK soon after. Not sure he ever felt Irish but he qualified for us. He 100% would’ve been eligible for England.

Interestingly, I’m reading McAteer’s book and his grandfather was from Co. Down. Not sure how that qualified him for us at the time in 1994

Similar to Alan Kernaghan I guess. Don't think Down being in the north would have caused any big issue.

[Fixer82]

Similar to Alan Kernaghan I guess. Don't think Down being in the north would have caused any big issue.

Well no player from 6 counties was able to play for us until recently. One of Kernaghan’s grandparents was born in republic

[Eirambler]

Were they? I thought it was just that they were Irish citizens but were all from the North. I assume that's how McAteer qualified also?

It's probably clarified one way or the other in the Eligibility Rules thread somewhere, but I don't have the patience to go back through it to check.

It's hard enough trying to keep up with the current eligibility rules these days.

[seanfhear]

His dad was working for Busáras. But he says he never really felt Irish alright, so strange in a way we got him when he was eligible for England (and was quite good)
He was very very very good. What we would do for a player as good as Steve Heighway today ?

[elatedscum]

Were they? I thought it was just that they were Irish citizens but were all from the North. I assume that's how McAteer qualified also?

It's probably clarified one way or the other in the Eligibility Rules thread somewhere, but I don't have the patience to go back through it to check.

It's hard enough trying to keep up with the current eligibility rules these days.

I didn’t think people from the north were entitled to irish citizenship till the good Friday agreement?

Strange situation with McAteer. There’s weird stuff around people born prior to the republic (before 01/01/49)… that they can apply to be British subjects and later British Citizens. Maybe the reverse was somehow true if someone was born before partition in 21 or the free state in 22? That would likely include a grandparent of his

[Eirambler]

I didn’t think people from the north were entitled to irish citizenship till the good Friday agreement?

Strange situation with McAteer. There’s weird stuff around people born prior to the republic (before 01/01/49)… that they can apply to be British subjects and later British Citizens. Maybe the reverse was somehow true if someone was born before partition in 21 or the free state in 22? That would likely include a grandparent of his

I think they were given citizenship by Ireland for years prior to that - the GFA formalised the position of NI in British and Irish law and meant that both countries recognised people's rights to an Irish passport, but I'm fairly certain the Irish government issued citizenship to any northerners that wanted one long before that.

[third policeman]

I think they were given citizenship by Ireland for years prior to that - the GFA formalised the position of NI in British and Irish law and meant that both countries recognised people's rights to an Irish passport, but I'm fairly certain the Irish government issued citizenship to any northerners that wanted one long before that.

They did. Most of my family had / have Irish citizenship and many born before GFA.

[Fixer82]

They did. Most of my family had / have Irish citizenship and many born before GFA.

Proper order!

[EalingGreen]

Well no player from 6 counties was able to play for us until recently. One of Kernaghan’s grandparents was born in republic
Not so.

Although few and far between ("Gentlemans Agreement"?), there was the odd one back in the day. Off the top of my head, I can think of (Belfast-born) Ger Crossley, who played in the Brian Kerr team which won the Euro U-18's title in 1998. While the Kearns/CAS case later confirmed that the automatic Irish cotizenship accorded to all NI people at birth by the Irish government is sufficient to permit them to be selected by the FAI.

As for Kernaghan, he was born in England, but moved with his English parents to Bangor when he was young. He played for NI Schools, and was even a ball boy at Windsor etc, but when he came onto Billy Bingam's radar, the IFA instructed that he wasn't eligible to be selected. Iirc, this was because the four home nations had an agreement that they would not select "each other's" players unless they also had a close ancestral connection.

AK had NI-born grandparents, but the IFA was (typically) slow to recognise a grandparent as being sufficient, insisting instead on a parent. However through his grandparents, AK was entitled to Irish citizenship, which in turn meant that he could be selected by the FAI under FIFA's eligibility rules. The player himself had hoped to play for NI, but he wasn't at all bothered about representing ROI when NI was closed off to him: like a lot of players, he just wanted to play international football, and to hell with the politics.

[third policeman]

Not so.

Although few and far between ("Gentlemans Agreement"?), there was the odd one back in the day. Off the top of my head, I can think of (Belfast-born) Ger Crossley, who played in the Brian Kerr team which won the Euro U-18's title in 1998. While the Kearns/CAS case later confirmed that the automatic Irish cotizenship accorded to all NI people at birth by the Irish government is sufficient to permit them to be selected by the FAI.

As for Kernaghan, he was born in England, but moved with his English parents to Bangor when he was young. He played for NI Schools, and was even a ball boy at Windsor etc, but when he came onto Billy Bingam's radar, the IFA instructed that he wasn't eligible to be selected. Iirc, this was because the four home nations had an agreement that they would not select "each other's" players unless they also had a close ancestral connection.

AK had NI-born grandparents, but the IFA was (typically) slow to recognise a grandparent as being sufficient, insisting instead on a parent. However through his grandparents, AK was entitled to Irish citizenship, which in turn meant that he could be selected by the FAI under FIFA's eligibility rules. The player himself had hoped to play for NI, but he wasn't at all bothered about representing ROI when NI was closed off to him: like a lot of players, he just wanted to play international football, and to hell with the politics.

There were plenty of players from the Republic who got caps for the IFA team before FIFA put a stop to it, but did a player from the North ever play for the FAI team during the era of "Two Irelands"?

[third policeman]

PS, EG, RIP Billy Bingham. I think he got a lot of unfair criticism over the infamous Windsor game. I don't believe he was ever purposely inciting some of the more unpleasant sectarian crowd behaviour on that occasion. He was the first NI manager to appoint a Catholic captain and had the respect and affection of all his players from whatever background. Came across as a decent man, and as someone who is not ashamed to say I shout for both Irish sides (with a primary loyalty to ROI), he gave a lot of people unforgettable memories especially in 82. It's odd but back in the day a lot of people in the Republic would support NI or at least shout for them during those World Cups.

[Eirambler]

Ealing Green - I think you have that pretty much bang on in terms of the Irish citizenship situation for Kernaghan - presumably that's how McAteer qualified for us also. Once there was a grandparent born on the island they could play for ROI as far as FIFA were concerned. But at the time it tended to be English born players that availed of this, NI born nationalists pretty much always played for the north during the Troubles.

I'm a bit too young to remember the glory days of NI football, but I can imagine it would have been easy enough for people in the south to support them back then - ROI had no history of tournament qualification at that point and the NI team had plenty of nationalists and seemed at that point to be able to appeal to both sides of the divide.

It's strange that, as things settled down a bit politically in the north, the football became more divisive around the same time. I think the Lennon incident contributed to it and made nationalists feel less welcome in terms of the unionist fanbase. Then the CAS ruling opened the door so there was no longer any ambiguity in terms of eligibility, they could play for us if they wanted to and it turned out many did.

[third policeman]

Ealing Green - I think you have that pretty much bang on in terms of the Irish citizenship situation for Kernaghan - presumably that's how McAteer qualified for us also. Once there was a grandparent born on the island they could play for ROI as far as FIFA were concerned. But at the time it tended to be English born players that availed of this, NI born nationalists pretty much always played for the north during the Troubles.

I'm a bit too young to remember the glory days of NI football, but I can imagine it would have been easy enough for people in the south to support them back then - ROI had no history of tournament qualification at that point and the NI team had plenty of nationalists and seemed at that point to be able to appeal to both sides of the divide.

It's strange that, as things settled down a bit politically in the north, the football became more divisive around the same time. I think the Lennon incident contributed to it and made nationalists feel less welcome in terms of the unionist fanbase. Then the CAS ruling opened the door so there was no longer any ambiguity in terms of eligibility, they could play for us if they wanted to and it turned out many did.

That’s true about cross community support for NI even during the troubles. I think your analysis is pretty much spot on, but I think the other issue is that the teams never played each other until the qualification campaigns. When they did it polarised support in NI. Nationalists instinctively supported ROI and some elements of the NI fan base from unionist or even more loyalist persuasion saw these fixtures very much in sectarian / political terms. I credit the IFA with trying to rebuild cross community support, but it’s not going to happen now. The two teams are pretty much emblems of identity. I know EG disagrees with this, but I think there is slightly more chance of one Irish team being able to attract support across political and cultural divides and borders then the NI team ever attracting nationalist support. The NI team and shirt are now pretty much owned by one community. I guess an All Ireland team, even with neutral symbols and anthems like Rugby and Cricket, would still be seen by some as a nationalist takeover, so we’re probably destined for a form of football apartheid until or unless we see a United Ireland .

[Eminence Grise]

I thought the technicality with Kernaghan was that his grandfather was born in Belfast before partition.

[tetsujin1979]

It's definitely his grandparents according to this - https://www.the42.ie/alan-kernaghan-4687458-Jun2019/
Doesn't mention when they were born though
The comments he got from the Northern Ireland fans are disgraceful

[osarusan]

My understanding of the Kernaghan sitution ws that while he was actually eligible for the NI team according to FIFA criteria, under the IFA's own stricter criteria, he was never going to be selected.

Maybe I've got it wrong though.

[Fixer82]

According to Wikipedia, Kernaghan's grandmother was born in the Republic. That was always the story I remember about him. Even though all his grandparents were northern Protestants, one of them was born in Republic and that qualified him for us