WUFC to fold

[Partizan]

Pineapple,

if we had won the Cup it would have consolidated our position and attracted investors and fans to come back on board. Simple as that, we had more to lose than Longford.

[pineapple stu]

There's not much difference - investor-wise - between reaching the Cup final and winning it though, let's be honest. There were what - 3000 Waterford fans? - at the Cup final. Most of them now don't go to league games. They probably wouldn't be gong now if yez had've won either. That's their nature.

Investors want exposure. Playing Carmarthen isn't exposure. Playing in the Cup final is. Yez got that. Winning the game wouldn't have changed that.

In any case, the Cup final was at the end of last season. It was after that that yez started waving sily money to Doyle, Finn and the others who were signed. The club made £100k profit over and above its budget in selling Murphy and yet is still in serious trouble. I honestly don't see how a Cup final win would have been a panacea for all that.

I want Waterford to survive obviously - just think that there's more to this than meets the eye.

[joeraki]

There's lot of things the Revenue "know" are going on but they choose not to pursue. I'm dubious whether they have the bottle to go the full hog and appoint investigators etc for what may be a limited financial benefit. Chasing Ansbacher account holders and single premium life policyholders is much more lucrative. Not to mention that this is very difficult to prove, you almost need a tout or an insider to admit its going on.

The Revenue may well be rattling the trees in the hope that magically the tax returns from EL clubs will increase over the next few months.

Maybe they do but I'm sure theres a lot they don't know either. The Revenue don't need bottle to do anything. They don't need any insider to prove anything, it's not the mafia there after. If they think there's serious wrong doing then they can just come in and use whatever resources they have to get to the bottom of it. I think a saving grace with Rovers was maybe they came clean with them and it showed that they owed even more than they thought. Honest enough, but it could open a can of worms (probably already has) with the Revenue and the rest of the league. If they want to and they pretty much can get to the bones of whats going on then its could be a rough ride for a lot of clubs

[Réiteoir]

It'll be an absolute tragedy and loss to the League if Waterford go to the wall.

Hope the club somehow manage to get through this and consolidate

Sadly, in a situation like this, with a club in deep financial trouble, etc. - the good guys never win.

[Partizan]

In any case, the Cup final was at the end of last season. It was after that that yez started waving sily money to Doyle, Finn and the others who were signed. The club made £100k profit over and above its budget in selling Murphy and yet is still in serious trouble.

How often does it have to spelled to you. We have the second lowest turn over in the Premier and had that even before we started slashing the wage bill. It cost 9k to run the Club every week which again is pretty low. We didnt start waving silly money. We have a First Division budget which is why we signed First Division players. Rennie signed the players on a silly contract. If the manager goes, they go.

The Board gambled that the 3000 that turned up for the Cup Final would stick with us for upcoming season. We have no large debts to speak of. All the money from Murphy went to pay off the ex-Directors of the PLC who were owed money, namely our ex-Chairman Ger O'Brien who has gotten us in the mess.

Finally I do believe as many in Waterford that had we won the Cup, the Club would have turned the corner and gone onto to build on that.

[Poor Student]

The Board gambled that the 3000 that turned up for the Cup Final would stick with us for upcoming season.

How could you gamble on having attendences higher than anyone but Cork? :confused:

[Xlex]

Well best of luck Partizan, Have a liking for WUFC, even more so since Reynolds is out of there now.


would love a 400 trust in Longford and hope that many clubs get these trusts of the ground.

Winning the cup may only have been a stay of execution for you... Who knows it may have saved our bacon too....

[OneRedArmy]

Maybe they do but I'm sure theres a lot they don't know either. The Revenue don't need bottle to do anything. They don't need any insider to prove anything, it's not the mafia there after. If they think there's serious wrong doing then they can just come in and use whatever resources they have to get to the bottom of it.

You need some kind of a basis for revising a tax assessment. By their nature cash payments are bloody hard to prove as they don't go through the books!

Ask every taxi driver, hairdresser and other cash-based businesses....

I've no idea how serious the Revenue will take this as I don't work for them. But history says not very seriously at all. Here's hoping.

[bluemovie]

Even if we had 1500 fans regularly turning up, we'd scrape by. Less than 1500 total between the two home games v UCD and Bray. As for businesses in Waterford, yes there are loads, but none of them want to invest. We had no shirt sponsor for the first few weeks of this season. Businesses wouldn't sponsor us recently because "all their money was tied up in the Tall Ships". The Tall Ships have sailed away and our club may be going with them.

I don't think we spent that heavily. We obviously budgetted for decent crowds and the Daryl Murphy transfer was on the horizon. Then our chairman left, took his money and hasn't been replaced by a new investor. Expenses have been cut, but contracts mean we can't reduce wages or get rid of some players. There just isn't any money to meet even the reduced weekly expenses.

[Battery Rover]

Hopefully it isnt true. But the best of luck to all in WUFC in keeping their great club alive.

[bluemovie]

Thanks for the support everyone. If we had the same level of empathy from some of the wealthy burghers of Waterford, we'd be in the clear.

[MariborKev]

According to the Revenue there are at lest 16/17 clubs in serious trouble and it could be up to 20. The only clubs that are definitely safe are Rovers and Derry.



Well, if the revenuew says we are safe I'll believe them :D

I'll wait for HM Customs and Excise and Inland Revune in our case. On an unrelated point, there is no way that the Revenue up here would have accepted the deal that Rovers got. We offered them £0.70 in the £1 the last time out and that was rejected.

[4tothefloor]

Best of luck to the Waterford fans, but it's another case of complete mismanagement. Not just the EL club, but the whole football structure in this country. EL clubs are paying the wages they are paying because they have no other choice in order to stay competitive. What we see with Waterford is the result when reality kicks in. All splashing the cash in order to achieve success, the reality is only a couple of clubs can actually win trophies and thus reap the rewards of their investment. Shels are a good example, because unless they can continue to win the league every year and stay successful, they will be in big trouble.

Instead of spending silly money on wages for what are by and large average players, clubs should be investing in long-term projects such as youth academies and centres of excellence. To actually produce some real talent with technical ability. Instead most EL clubs have mickey mouse schoolboy and youth set ups. The structure from the grassroots up is all wrong and it's amazing that clubs in a country the size of ours, where football is the third sport behind GAA's two, think that they can survive professionally without youth academies. Only in Ireland :rolleyes: . That's why the EL will never be taken seriously, because the structures of each and every club, no exceptions, is a joke compared to those across the water and in the rest of Europe. Hopefully Packie Bonners Technical Development Plan will eventually change this situation, but knowing the careless attitude of Chairmen and the people who run football in this country, it probably won't. And people here wonder why Irish fans watch English football instead of the EL.........this thread is one of your answers, because the way it is run is a joke, that's why.

Anyway, best of luck lads in trying to keep the club a float. Waterford are probably heading for a few years of what we had to put up with in Limerick. We're only looking a bit healthier now because of a 'sugar daddy' of sorts, albeit a miserable (and worryingly, an increasingly crazy) one :D . Unless ye can find a suitable investor who is willing to spend money, it's going to be hardship for a while, but surviving is the main thing. Just look at Limerick, we're still around even though we hadn't a pot to pi$$ in for years.

[green-blood]

incidentally they didnt accept the deal the examiner put to them, they absgtained, if they had voted against we would be out of bizness now and if they had voted for it would have set a precedent, fact is they knew liquidation meant zilch and they were happy for the chance to use Rovers to frighten others into paying up

by accounts waterfords tax issues are not too bad - they just cant meet the outgoings with the incomings, best of luck WUFC

clubs with tax debt and assets - grounds, training facilities, bars, players on top contracts - those clubs need to watch out, revenue could force them to liquidate assets to meet liabilities

[harry crumb]

Ive enjoyed having Waterford in the top division the past 2 years. They played exciting football at the start but gradually turned into a team of shin kickers.

The RSC is a huge problem IMO. Its not enjoyable to go to a game of soccer there.

1 Stand and the rest is railing and you are miles away from the pitch. There is no atmosphere created or any sense of matchday experience.

THe RSC and Waterford are not enticing enough.

[Flea]

Well even at that in a place like Waterford they should at least be getting 1500-2000. The big problem with EL clubs is that they are signing players which come back from England paying them anything up a grand a week and lets face it, these players are players rejected from England. They were only on a fraction of what they are getting over here now. Such players are demanding too much from smaller clubs. Imo its the players that are doing the damage to the league. There are too many players demanding too high of wages while at the same time underperforming resulting in small attendances. Instant problems. Yes the league is improving with such players but not to the extent that every club has to go bust. Not every good young player has to be a player on return from England to be good. Therefore the League needs to introduce wage caps with substantial bonuses based on performances instead of basic wage increases, which would put players in their places, making them work harder. The easiest money made in this country at the moment is playing soccer, play bad and you just get a bit of stick but you still get your grand at the end of the week.

Anyways, best of luck Waterford, you'll be back but you and others should learn from this.

[dfx-]

The only clubs that are definitely safe are Rovers and Derry.


One sentence I thought I'd never hear and it doesn't bring as much happiness to me as I thought it would...more a sense of harsh realism..

It seems like only a couple of weeks ago that Waterford were flying along... :eek: :(

[patsh]

I don't think we spent that heavily. We obviously budgetted for decent crowds and the Daryl Murphy transfer was on the horizon. Then our chairman left, took his money and hasn't been replaced by a new investor. Expenses have been cut, but contracts mean we can't reduce wages or get rid of some players. There just isn't any money to meet even the reduced weekly expenses.
Wasn't O'Brien virtually hounded out by the abuse and vitriol he was getting from certain fans?
I seem to remember the poster who started this thread having a go at him many times on the BTID board.
How do you expect to get investors in when all they can expect is abuse from the more vocal fans?
It's sad to see Waterford in this state, but how much do you, Partizan, know of the real story? Are you directly involved with the club and know the financial situation, or are you just a very worried fan? You've made claims that winning the cup would have been worth €1,000,000 to WUFC, a claim that seems ludicrous to me.
I'm more than happy to contribute to Waterford, but to whom and for what?
Would any money collected be just to pay of the rest of what Ger O'Brien is owed, or would it go towards the running of the club? If the club has been so badly run, as seems evident, whats the point in giving money to those who will just continue to waste it?

[wws]

just a few points struck me reading these

1) waterford isnt a special case - what happened to them is actually what is happening now at each of the premier clubs to a lesser or greater extent as they all operate in the same commercial environment

2) Clubs are not meeting costs from football generated income - in effect LOI crowd revenue and associated spin offs do not even meet say half week to week club expenditure. Posters who still believe the revenue streams are there from the core of the business of football in this country are deluded - only blind investment - if ure lucky to have a sugar daddy expecting no return or major blue chip backing (in effect no club really has this to the level im on about) is bridging the gap between outgoings and incomings

3) Clubs got Tax Clearance certs so they satisified the revenue that they were either a) in full tax compliance or b) that they had agreed a full schedule of repayments for outstanding tax liabilities (these can take the form of special deals etc and can be revoked at any time on defaulting) - all perfectly above board


Its hard to have this debate, but its one that has to be brought up - most people here run for the cover of club loyalty - "its them, not us" but all of us have to examine the fact that football in this country does not currently generate the revenue required to meet the costs it now takes to run.....

[garykelly]

Hopefully it isnt true that Waterford could go to the wall. But I would say to supporters to get together . It seems an ideal situation for a supporters trust to be founded and get helping the club if possible with a view to the trust eventually running the club. We're lucky from the point of view that the club is doing great and our trust is to help bring the club to the next level, not to run it. We're trying to represent supporters and bridge the gap that oftens exists between club management and it's supporters. It's alot of work but worth it both for the club and it's supporters.

The main point of a trust is that it's independant and people who wont back the club for whatever reason will support an independant supporter driven organisation. It's just an idea but it's been proved in the past that the ppl to save a club are it's supporters.

[Passive]

3) Clubs got Tax Clearance certs so they satisified the revenue that they were either a) in full tax compliance or b) that they had agreed a full schedule of repayments for outstanding tax liabilities (these can take the form of special deals etc and can be revoked at any time on defaulting) - all perfectly above board


Branvard got a tax clearance certificate by lying about the real amount of money they owed Revenue. The real figure only surfaced when the examiner went through the past few years' accounts. I'd imagine that Revenue now realise that if Branvard pulled the wool over their eyes others are doing likewise. The reality is that there is several million euro of unpaid tax in our league. The Eircom League is, by and large, a criminal enterprise. The sooner supporters realise that the better.

[WeAreRovers]

3) Clubs got Tax Clearance certs so they satisified the revenue that they were either a) in full tax compliance or b) that they had agreed a full schedule of repayments for outstanding tax liabilities (these can take the form of special deals etc and can be revoked at any time on defaulting) - all perfectly above board

A TCC means sod all I'm afraid. It doesn't mean that you are either tax compliant or have agreed a schedule of payments. All it means is that one Revenue official saw your accounts and signed off on them. As The Rovers case proved this can can come back to haunt you if and when the Revenue wake up and take a proper look at your affairs.

KOH

[wws]

yeah well I wasnt accounting for bare faced lying of branvard (or any others) but from what ive heard some clubs have already initiated the actual bits and pieces of agreeing settlements with the Revenue - ie pats for one - there bill is still massive though....but as far as I can make out is far from hidden or unknown to the revenue

[superfrank]

What's the deal with Cheevers?

[Poor Student]

What's the deal with Cheevers?

He's gone to accept a job in the US.

[superfrank]

He's gone to accept a job in the US.
Now that's loyalty!

[Poor Student]

Now that's loyalty!

With the club seemingly crumbling around him I think he has a responsibility to his family as well (I assume he has one) not to turn down a good job offer, no?

[superfrank]

With the club seemingly crumbling around him I think he has a responsibility to his family as well (I assume he has one) not to turn down a good job offer, no?
It's not often I say this but I was impressed with Pat McCourt, a Rovers player, who said he couldn't leave until the end of the season. Why couldn't he do the same?? Or at least wait until the last possible moment.

[Poor Student]

McCourt is evidently quite talented and in high demand. I'm not saying Chivers isn't talented but can he go knocking back opportunities and expect to receive more offers in the same way young McCourt can?

[superfrank]

McCourt is evidently quite talented and in high demand. I'm not saying Chivers isn't talented but can he go knocking back opportunities and expect to receive more offers in the same way young McCourt can?
I suppose but it just seems like the cowards way out to me.

[pineapple stu]

It cost 9k to run the Club every week which again is pretty low. We didnt start waving silly money. We have a First Division budget which is why we signed First Division players.
Silly money isn't necessarily E2k a week. Silly money is more than what you can afford. If you can't afford anywhere near E9k a week but are paying it out, then that's silly money.

If you budgeted for 3000 a week, then (a) that's stupid and (b) that'd easily cover the E9k costs (3000 @ E10 average = E30,000 every other week). Why budget for the second highest crowd in the league and the second lowest costs? Doesn't make sense.

Even getting 1800 people would cover the E9k. And that's not considering the £100k profit you made on Daryl Murphy which wouldn't have been in the budget. That would cover a E3k deficit - one third of your costs, in other words - over the entire season. You're now talking about surviving on gates of 1200 - which is what the gates seem to be - not selling the entire squad.


Finally I do believe as many in Waterford that had we won the Cup, the Club would have turned the corner and gone onto to build on that.
Why? Let's be honest - getting to the Cup final was a great achievement in itself. What would have happened differently had the club won? Not a lot. It got the exposure and day the in the sun, it attracted 3000 fans to a game - winning wouldn't have changed any of that. Your argument, to me, seems on a par with Dublin City claiming that becuase they have "Dublin" in their name, everyone's going to flock to them.

I'm sorry, but none of this is adding up at all for me.

[BohDiddley]

Good post WWS. Now, I'm not being smart with this, but can you tell us what sport can, after you take away handouts and tax breaks? Maybe golf. Perhaps rugger, because it is associated with money anyway. Even if horseracing is viable now, would it have been so without the massive taxpayer investment over the decades?
IMO sport is valuable in itself in whole host of ways, and should be better supported from the public purse. And football should be getting more of the pie, based on the most recent participant figures. The question is, are we prepared to stand by and let historic football clubs die?



all of us have to examine the fact that football in this country does not currently generate the revenue required to meet the costs it now takes to run.....

[tiktok]

Why? Let's be honest - getting to the Cup final was a great achievement in itself. What would have happened differently had the club won? Not a lot.

To be fair, being in the Setanta Cup and The UEFA Cup during the week of the Tall ships event would have attracted some attention. They certainly wouldn't have played without a shirt sponsor for the first month/six weeks of the season.

It might not have saved them but it would have contributed a nice bit of dough IMO.

[pineapple stu]

To be fair, being in the Setanta Cup and The UEFA Cup
Hmmm...had forgotten about the Setanta Cup actually. A non-televised game against Carmarthen isn't worth that much though, I'd say. Even Cork are talking about making negligible money from the Ekranes game.

Still, they managed last year without the Setanta. They had plenty of advance warning that they wouldn't be in it this year. Their problem seems to be budgeting - i.e. spending more than they have - by a huge amount. No excuse for that, especially with £100k profit from Murphy.

A shirt sponsor is worth what - E50k a season? So to lose one for one month is probably a loss of E5k. Nothing you can't get over.

[pineapple stu]

To be fair, being in the Setanta Cup and The UEFA Cup during the week of the Tall ships event would have attracted some attention. They certainly wouldn't have played without a shirt sponsor for the first month/six weeks of the season.

It might not have saved them but it would have contributed a nice bit of dough IMO.

Incidentally, my scepticism on this issue is partly aroused by this (http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=26467) thread on the UCD forum, in which Waterford fans claimed their club was secure and that at the last AGM, shareholders were told the debt was E30k. This seems complete nonsense now. I'm just trying to work out how Waterford can go so pear-shaped in such a short length of time - and failing - and then taking things with a pinch of salt.

Best of luck to Waterford, obviously, as I've said before, but I still don't think what's being said here and on other threads is the full story by a long shot.

[anto eile]

1: Only a fool, or someone with something to hide will come out and deny that tax evasion is going on in some clubs. Most people, myself included, aren't close enough to state it as fact. But the dogs on the street are rarely wrong.

2: It all depends whether the Revenue have the bottle to pursue it and that will be dependent on a number of factors such as their current workload, how rife they think it is and crucially if they think they can prove it etc.


The Revenue may well be rattling the trees in the hope that magically the tax returns from EL clubs will increase over the next few months.
1:true
2:they do. Rovers are simply the first in a long line of 16/17 clubs going to find themselves answering to the Revenue. dont be surprised if many EL figures see charges brought against them

as for shels. common sense. shels income: poor crowds + advertising + sponsorship versus outgoings, still wont ad up,theyve the most expensive squad in EL history.only fools with their head in the sand would believe theres nothing fishy oging on.and theres olly byrne too.thats nearly proof alone that something dodgy is going on at tolka park!

any doubters re shels should remember at the close of the 2003 season shels had a shorfall of E300,000 to pay wages over the winter. (the european run didnt rake in milions either)
as much as 17 clubs in trouble with the revenue.its the likes of kilkenny i would say that are not in too much trouble.the reason they (and 2or3 others) are consistently bad is becasue thery run on a realistic budget- E80,000 i believe is kilkennys budget

[pineapple stu]

We have no large debts to speak of.

Waterford United has only 1 week left.
These comments also don't add up - if you have no large debts at all, why have you only one week left? Clubs - or any business for that matter - don't go out of business just because they make a loss over a short period.

[wws]

If you budgeted for 3000 a week, then (a) that's stupid and (b) that'd easily cover the E9k costs (3000 @ E10 average = E30,000 every other week). Why budget for the second highest crowd in the league and the second lowest costs? Doesn't make sense..



they got just over 900 ppl for the 1st round of the cup (supposedly the country clubs biggest gate of teh year) - also it COSTS 2500 euro minimum to stage an eircom league game in Dublin (before a punter even enters the ground) plus in the league of ireland you do not play a home game every other week - in fact waterford are in trouble precisely for this reason - they will now go almost a month with no home game in july-august

now try and budget......

[pineapple stu]

Two week anniversary of WUFC having one week to live - what's the latest?

[Poor Student]

Two week anniversary of WUFC having one week to live - what's the latest?

I reminded Patizan of this in a topic a little while ago but he was rather quiet.

[wws]

Two week anniversary of WUFC having one week to live - what's the latest?


update: theyve lost every decent player they had and i think have now gone 10 without a win.....is this living????

[bigmac]

As far as I can gather, the latest situation is still pretty grim. I'm not living in the country (though I still have a season ticket for the RSC) but I'll outline the facts as I have heard them. It should be noted though, that although I know people heavily involved in the club, both playing, coaching and other staff, I myself have nothing to do with them officially and this is not gospel at all. I will try to put the issues as objectively as possible.


Our former chairman Ger O'Brien resigned recently, a decision which was generally welcomed within the community of Waterford fans. As has been mentioned on this thread, he was subject to quite a bit of personal abuse over his running of the club. This abuse centered mainly around the events concerning Jimmy McGeough's removal as manager and the presence of Ger O'Brien's son in the squad for the last few seasons. It was felt that Kevin (his son) was in the team only due to pressure on the manager from his father and that his wages were excessively generous for a player of his calibre.

The money from the Daryl Murphy transfer then went to pay off a debt to Ger O'Brien, although I am unsure as to how much of the money paid off how much of the debt. Reports suggest that the entire fee covered a large percentage of the amount outstanding.

An effort to decrease wages was made by offloading players such as John Frost to Pats. AFAIK, Doherty was sent back to Shels but when they refused to terminate the loan agreement early, the league adjudicated that WUFC were responsible for paying his wages for the rest of the season. To the best of my knowledge, the manager was told that he could take a pay cut and remain as a player but he would not be continuing as manager, hence he went to Shels (can't really blame him, he's getting a great deal there). Giles Cheevers, the coach, then took over the managerial reins on a temporary basis.

Giles has now left to take up a coaching post in the US and the new manager is Brendan Rea, former manager of Junior League side Waterford Crystal (played Longford in the cup recently). Confidence amongst the players seems to be pretty low, and some points are desperately required to get some belief back into the squad.

On other issues, the PLC is to be dissolved with WUFC returning to a private company. The major shareholders (of which I believe there are 6, including Ger O'Brien) will nominate 3 directors to the board and the otehr shareholders, through the PLC, which will now become a dormant company, will nominate one. This is mainly to remove the obligations that exist under corporate law for reporting and auditing accounts, which were costing the club around 10,000 a year. In its present situation, obviously any money saved is significant.

At the recent AGM, accounts showed a significant amount of money still owed to Ger O'Brien and Yvonne O'Brien, I believe in the region of 40K and 20K respectively for work undertaken while in control of the club. These figures are unconfirmed however. There was also reference to a six figure sum in the region of 150K due to GOB, however, I am not sure if this is the Murphy transfer or additional to that.

Opinion part:
However there is a tendency amongst a proportion of the Waterford fans to seek to apportion blame wherever they can. GOB was (as has been mentioned) subjected to abuse and hassle, then Greg Pheasy (the next chairman) had to resign as it was affecting his business adversely, then Cheevers was blamed, then Rennie, God knows who's next. Businessmen who put money into the club are castigated for trying to protect their investment, and businesses that don't invest are castigated for not caring, it seems that it's a no win situation really. As regards solutions, until we can get a good (>1500) regular home attendance, the club will be going nowhere. It'll be up to the new board of directors to try to create a more local following for the team, and hopefully, bringing a junior league man in as manager can help foster links with the local clubs. For the moment though, survival in the premier this year could come down to the game against Rovers coming up.

[pineapple stu]

update: theyve lost every decent player they had and i think have now gone 10 without a win.....is this living????
Yep. Ask any Omagh or Coleraine fan.

Thanks for the update, bigmac.