Republic of Ireland V Belgium - Saturday, 26th March 2022 - Friendly

[gastric]

As a Mick fan, we may have qualified, but it would have been with an agricultural style and lots of older players. Kenny is using lots of young players and has essentially carried out a lobotomy in terms of playing style. Sacrifices have been made, long line King Kenny!

[John83]

Did we lose to Belgium? The utter miserable state of half this thread. Ignore and move on folks. You're wasting your time on someone who sees themselves in some sort of weird righteous opposition to fanaticism and Messiah worship where none exists.
The way I see it, much of it was prompted by trolling from multiple pro-Kenny fans taunting people who had "suddenly gone quiet". Then, a couple of people dare respond and it's proof of what exactly? This pathetic "pro-Kenny"/"anti-Kenny" polarization ****e. Let people express their opinions without having a ****ing meta-discussion about the discussion on every damned thread.

[ontheotherhand]

The way I see it, much of it was prompted by trolling from multiple pro-Kenny fans taunting people who had "suddenly gone quiet". Then, a couple of people dare respond and it's proof of what exactly? This pathetic "pro-Kenny"/"anti-Kenny" polarization ****e. Let people express their opinions without having a ****ing meta-discussion about the discussion on every damned thread.

Ok get us back on track John. How do you feel now about the match? Did we play well? Are you optimistic for the future?

[Fixer82]

Did we lose to Belgium? The utter miserable state of half this thread. Ignore and move on folks. You're wasting your time on someone who sees themselves in some sort of weird righteous opposition to fanaticism and Messiah worship where none exists.

Amen. The team has probably never had so many players from the third tier in England and yet we just got a creditable draw against the World no.1 team. And played some nice football too.

God forbid what the naysayers would be attacking if we'd won....no doubt saying it was a weakened Belgium side. Not as weak as us all the same!

[Exgrad]

Ah that's harsh. Yeah, Gibraltar and Georgia were painful, but he did a job. He's a good manager and got us to the Euro playoffs. Given a longer contact, would he have taken the same longer-term view Kenny could? His previous spell in charge suggests he could well have.

I think he deserves huge respect as Ireland manager

He didnt get us to a euro play off though did he? That was through the nations league (somehow). I like McCarthy by the way, he should have got the gig again prior to when he did after O'Neill. He played the best football i saw an ireland team play in his first spell in charge. But football has moved on, as has been clear enough from McCarthys last few gigs.

[sadloserkid]

I've come around to probably somewhere close to the middle on Kenny. He can't be clubbed indefinitely on the Luxembourg game and recent results are, at worst, solid and, at best, encouraging. I still think he needs the Nations League to go relatively painlessly but that would be true of any manager.

It's still a pretty bad Irish team too by the standards we're used to. I think he plenty of weaknesses still (or 'opportunities for improvement' in office speak) but I don't think any rational person could seriously believe he's still dragging the team down below it's natural level (though he definitely was at one point early in his tenure).

Friendly or no that Belgian draw was a good result too and it would be fairly indicative of a learning disability to try and frame it as a meaningless game against their B side (a furiously tabloid labelling anyway). If anything it was a real chance for their fringe players to make a serious statement of intent and impress Martinez. In that context they should have been at least as fired up as our side.

I still don't really believe Kenny is likely to oversee any of the majorly massive nights in Irish football history but the future is all speculative anyway (and there are enough other issues that even if he was peak era Ferguson/Clough/Mourinho/whoever you fancy there might not be great days ahead). Right now though? There's been enough clear and tangible improvement in results that he should have built up a bit of credit with any reasonably minded observer.

[Olé Olé]

Amen. The team has probably never had so many players from the third tier in England and yet we just got a creditable draw against the World no.1 team. And played some nice football too.

God forbid what the naysayers would be attacking if we'd won....no doubt saying it was a weakened Belgium side. Not as weak as us all the same!

Remember when Michael O'Neill managed NI and the big question was how they managed to get results at international level with lesser players? We are managing to get okay results whilst playing nice football. I can remember an NI team at the Euros against Poland in 2016 which was more or less a 5-4-1 with 8 of the outfield players being defenders or fairly defensive and then Davis and Lafferty.

[Olé Olé]

The thing about the Belgian game is that I was very conditioned to view an early opposition opening goal as being an absolute disaster. I immediately saw it as a disaster for us based on previous experiences. How would we stop them from scoring any more? How would we ever manage to create enough chances to convert and get ourselves back in the game?

Again, that was conditioning. We got into the game with some good attacking play and bouts of pressure. There were times that Belgium played through our midfield a little too easy and Tielemans probably didn't break much of a sweat. But the game and result was reflective of what occurred at the far ends of the pitch with Egan and Doherty having fine games and Ogbene and Knight working tirelessly with Robinson having some really great moments.

Even when we were down a goal for about a half hour after the Vanaken header, there was little panic and the players seemed assured that we could get back into it if we kept going as we were.

Ok, it was a friendly and it wasn't Belgium at full strength but that side would be better than most third seeds and even some second seeds.

Hopefully we can maintain this foundation now and Kenny can continue to bring through our brighter young players. I won't write them all off yet but succession planning for Coleman, McClean and Hendrick is looking like a short to medium term priority.

[Razors left peg]

Jeff Hendrick is only 30 and playing very well for us, he wouldn't be too much of a priority to replace at moment in my opinion. I would actually say that he's probably Kenny's biggest success for how he's turned him around

[tetsujin1979]

Is there a similarity between Batshuayi's goal and Sancho's goal against us in Wembley?
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1507769751581376516

[Diggs246]

The way I see it, much of it was prompted by trolling from multiple pro-Kenny fans taunting people who had "suddenly gone quiet". Then, a couple of people dare respond and it's proof of what exactly? This pathetic "pro-Kenny"/"anti-Kenny" polarization ****e. Let people express their opinions without having a ****ing meta-discussion about the discussion on every damned thread.

This is the best post of 2022.
Every time Kenny has a good result, the kenny militia for no reason come out and "poke the bear"
Every time he has a bad result the other side are out with knives ( ive been one of these I have to admit)
We are actually all on the same side believe it or no!!

[Olé Olé]

Jeff Hendrick is only 30 and playing very well for us, he wouldn't be too much of a priority to replace at moment in my opinion. I would actually say that he's probably Kenny's biggest success for how he's turned him around

I clearly wasn't writing him off and I wasn't saying it should be a "priority to replace at moment". Read my post.

I was saying succession planning might be needed. I don't know who can do his role or will be able to. Even as he gets older, he might not be able to play full matches. And if he got an injury, who is there to slot in beside Cullen? Is Browne his support? He came on for him on 76mins on Saturday but I don't know if he's suited to the role beside Cullen- I think he's more suited to the advanced roles.

I think planning for Hendrick is far less of a priority than Coleman and McClean but it is such an integral position that he plays. And there are probably options behind Coleman and McClean. Collins, Omobamidele and O'Shea for starters for Coleman's slot. Enda Stevens and Ryan Manning for LWB.

[elatedscum]

And if he got an injury, who is there to slot in beside Cullen? Is Browne his support? He came on for him on 76mins on Saturday but I don't know if he's suited to the role beside Cullen- I think he's more suited to the advanced roles.

Depends the game. Browne is a more attacking version. The reason we scored that second goal was cause Browne was prepared to make that run. He gets himself into positions that Hendrick doesn't but I don't think it means that he can't be useful playing in Hendrick's position, particularly against weaker opposition or when chasing a goal. It's a bit of a trade off either way.

Knight and McGrath are in a similar boat. The likes of Molumby and Hourihane offer different alternatives, both are perhaps a more natural replacement - but if Cullen and one of Knight or Browne started against Lithuania, I'd be totally happy with that.

[Olé Olé]

Depends the game. Browne is a more attacking version. The reason we scored that second goal was cause Browne was prepared to make that run. He gets himself into positions that Hendrick doesn't but I don't think it means that he can't be useful playing in Hendrick's position, particularly against weaker opposition or when chasing a goal. It's a bit of a trade off either way.

Knight and McGrath are in a similar boat. The likes of Molumby and Hourihane offer different alternatives, both are perhaps a more natural replacement - but if Cullen and one of Knight or Browne started against Lithuania, I'd be totally happy with that.

Spot on on all fronts. When we were down a goal, it made a lot of sense to bring Browne in and, yes, he offers something a bit different to Hendrick, a bit more dynamism in there. He took his goal really well.

I don't fancy Hourihane myself. I would like to see Molumby progress and improve more. Jack Taylor might be an option. Work to do there too. At under 21 level there are a lot of options but someone needs to stick their head above the parapet. Coventry and Kilkenny have a lot to do at club level and Jack Taylor must be ahead of both in that regard. There are a few lads behind them too.

[tetsujin1979]

actually, on the "similar goals from previous games" theme
Browne's goal is scored from a similar position that he scored against Serbia
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[pineapple stu]

Did we not get to the Euro playoffs based on being 4th in our group in NL under O'Neill and were basically in playoffs by default?


He didnt get us to a euro play off though did he? That was through the nations league (somehow).
I keep making that mistake...

I think it's because third place did get us to the playoffs in Euro 2016. But yeah, Mick didn't get us to the Euro 2020 playoffs.

I think my point still stands though - while the football was eye-gougingly bad, I think that was in part down to the short-term nature of his job. So I don't agree with Jd2793 when he says he's delighted Mick's gone. I am delighted that era is gone, though, which is a slightly different thing. I've compared what Kenny's doing now to what Mick did in 1996, so I don't see any reason why Mick now couldn't be doing what Kenny is.

[Razors left peg]

I clearly wasn't writing him off and I wasn't saying it should be a "priority to replace at moment". Read my post.

I was saying succession planning might be needed. I don't know who can do his role or will be able to. Even as he gets older, he might not be able to play full matches. And if he got an injury, who is there to slot in beside Cullen? Is Browne his support? He came on for him on 76mins on Saturday but I don't know if he's suited to the role beside Cullen- I think he's more suited to the advanced roles.

I think planning for Hendrick is far less of a priority than Coleman and McClean but it is such an integral position that he plays. And there are probably options behind Coleman and McClean. Collins, Omobamidele and O'Shea for starters for Coleman's slot. Enda Stevens and Ryan Manning for LWB.

Relax dude, I read your post and Im the one whos saying I dont think a succession plan for Hendrick is a high priority just yet. Coleman and McClean for sure.

Knight is probably the closest thing we have to a young Hendrick in the squad, all be it that he doesnt have Hendricks size. Smallbone may also develop into that role

[third policeman]

Festy is the obvious successor to Coleman in the RB role with Doherty well capable of playing on the left. Disappointed that he wasn't called up for the seniors.

[third policeman]

Also think Ronan's skill set would complement Cullen in a different way to Hendrick. For some reason we are assuming his role will be somewhere in the front three. His role at club level to date has been somewhere between an 8 and a 10. He plays at the same tempo as Cullen, comfortable to take the ball under pressure and uses it quickly and progressively. Has the eye for goal that Hendrick seemed to promise but never fulfilled. I genuinely think, that like Ogbene, he will take to international football surprisingly well - if he gets a decent chance tomorrow.

[Razors left peg]

Also think Ronan's skill set would complement Cullen in a different way to Hendrick. For some reason we are assuming his role will be somewhere in the front three. His role at club level to date has been somewhere between an 8 and a 10. He plays at the same tempo as Cullen, comfortable to take the ball under pressure and uses it quickly and progressively. Has the eye for goal that Hendrick seemed to promise but never fulfilled. I genuinely think, that like Ogbene, he will take to international football surprisingly well - if he gets a decent chance tomorrow.

Cullen and Ronan in midfield would be very lightweight, both are tiny

[Stuttgart88]

Ah that's harsh. Yeah, Gibraltar and Georgia were painful, but he did a job. He's a good manager and got us to the Euro playoffs. Given a longer contact, would he have taken the same longer-term view Kenny could? His previous spell in charge suggests he could well have.

i really don’t think so. Cardiff were playing caveman football anytime I saw them in the month or two before he got sacked. I think Mick is very much a “pre-2008” manager. Trap and MON too.

Kenny and his staff are “post-2008” coaches and I think are more ambitious in their designs than Mick could ever have been. They’re also more aligned with how the underage teams and most good LOI teams are trying to play now too.

I have huge respect and affection for Mick but there’s just no way I could see him overseeing a culture shift in the MNT.

[third policeman]

Cullen and Ronan in midfield would be very lightweight, both are tiny

Xavi and Iniesta? Cullen is 2 inches taller than both of them, and has no trouble holding and winning the ball in midfield.

[Razors left peg]

Xavi and Iniesta? Cullen is 2 inches taller than both of them, and has no trouble holding and winning the ball in midfield.

2 of the greatest midfielders ever to play the game is a bit of an outlier and not the norm. I like the idea of it in theory but I think in practice it could get ugly quickly

[CraftyToePoke]

I've compared what Kenny's doing now to what Mick did in 1996, so I don't see any reason why Mick now couldn't be doing what Kenny is

Based on what tbough ?
Genuine question.

I've paid money to watch Cardiff this season and I was embarrassed for him. Its also time and money ill never get back. And it wasn't just at Cardiff either, lets face that.

So something he did half his adult life ago doesn't give basis to the theory, any more than George Graham / Howard Wilkinson / countless others could still deliver either. Your time comes, your times passes.

[third policeman]

2 of the greatest midfielders ever to play the game is a bit of an outlier and not the norm. I like the idea of it in theory but I think in practice it could get ugly quickly

Johnny Giles and Billy Bremner

[Razors left peg]

Johnny Giles and Billy Bremner

2 absolute hard ba$tards, again a bit different

[samhaydenjr]

Just thought I'd add my two cents on the Belgium result before this thread drops down a bit in an effort to gauge where we stand in terms of our goal of qualifying for Euro 2024. I will note that I was unable to watch the game here in Canada and have only been able to see Youtube highlights. So, yeah, a 2-2 draw against the No 1 ranked team in the world - pretty impressive, eh? Well of course it isn't that straightforward, as we all know. This Belgium team without the likes of Courtois, Vertonghen, Alderweireld, De Bruyne, Lukaku and Mertens is a different proposition. In fact, if we look at the starting 11s, Belgium had seven players playing for teams in the big five leagues, plus two with significant previous experience at that level. Meanwhile we had four players currently at EPL teams, while four others had experience at that level. So the gap in player pedigree wasn't huge, although it would still have been in Belgium's favour. I don't think you could say the Belgium team on Saturday was one of the top five international teams in the world - in terms of Euro qualifying I would say they are a Pot 2 team, maybe a lower Pot 1 team (which actually might undermine the talk of how good the Belgian development system is, to an extent).

Our goal going into the Nations League should be to come out as a Pot 2 team capable of picking up four points ay least against any Pot 3 team and pick up points against a Pot 1 team or a Pot 3 team capable of picking up four points ay least against any Pot 2 team and pick up points against a Pot 1 team. In either case, we also need to be able to brush aside teams from Pots 4, 5 and 6. I think Saturday's game (a come-from-behind home draw against a Pot 2 quality team) shows we are within sight of this (as did the home games against Portugal and Serbia) but that we still need to move up a level in the next twelve months. A comfortable win against Lithuania is probably still important to maintain progress.

The real measure of success will be the Nations League. If we top our group and get into Pot 2, which should be doable, this would be a definite sign of gains (as would coming second by the bounce of a ball). An uncompetitive second or third place would indicate an element of stagnation, while fourth in the group would be a sign of a serious problem, even if we pick up enough points to limp into the play-offs, which should be the absolute minimum goal. At this point I think it's still more likely we'll end up in Pot 3 with enough points to take us to the play-offs, if needed.

One final positive note - with Ogbene causing so many problems with his pace on his own, I really hope we can get Obafemi and Ebosele into the frame as soon as possible, because that would give us a serious weapon!

[elatedscum]

The real measure of success will be the Nations League. If we top our group and get into Pot 2, which should be doable, this would be a definite sign of gains (as would coming second by the bounce of a ball). An uncompetitive second or third place would indicate an element of stagnation, while fourth in the group would be a sign of a serious problem, even if we pick up enough points to limp into the play-offs, which should be the absolute minimum goal. At this point I think it's still more likely we'll end up in Pot 3 with enough points to take us to the play-offs, if needed.


I will say, on paper we're probably the 3rd best side in that group. Scotland are 7 games unbeaten (6 wins including a 2-0 v Denmark and the only draw was against Poland, which involved a 94th minute penalty equaliser for Poland. Scotland will be really tough to beat. I don't think we have any players at the level of Andy Robertson, probably Tierney too, maybe McTominay and McGinn wouldn't be far off - and Che Adams is operating at a higher level than any of our attacking players.

Ukraine are a side that got to the quarter final of the euros before losing to England and went their entire World Cup qualification campaign unbeaten, including drawing home and away against France. They're another good teams, who will be very difficult to beat. Plenty of good players: Malinovski, Zinchencko, Yarmalenko, Matviyenko, Yaremchuk who's scoring goals for fun at international level, Mykolenko who Everton just bought for £20m and Konoplyanka is still bouncing around (Liverpool tried to buy him at the beginning of Klopp's reign - they offered his buyout but the owner in ukraine refused to sign the transfer paperwork).

Armenia aren't as good a team as us, but going there won't be easy. They beat Iceland and Romania at home, and Germany were the only team in qualification to take 6 points off them.

I could see us drawing a lot of games, being really competitive, coming second or third and I don't think it would be a bad result. I hope we win the group and I wouldn't bet against us doing it, but realistically we're coming up against decent opposition.

[lofty9]

Just thought I'd add my two cents on the Belgium result before this thread drops down a bit in an effort to gauge where we stand in terms of our goal of qualifying for Euro 2024. I will note that I was unable to watch the game here in Canada and have only been able to see Youtube highlights. So, yeah, a 2-2 draw against the No 1 ranked team in the world - pretty impressive, eh? Well of course it isn't that straightforward, as we all know. This Belgium team without the likes of Courtois, Vertonghen, Alderweireld, De Bruyne, Lukaku and Mertens is a different proposition. In fact, if we look at the starting 11s, Belgium had seven players playing for teams in the big five leagues, plus two with significant previous experience at that level.

I thought Belgium's stand out player on the day was Vanaken (7) who plays for Club Brugge. I wonder how many caps he'd have if he was Irish, hes 29 and 18 caps. We're definitely lacking the quality of the Belgian's but have to be happy with the performance and the midgame turnaround in which we were able to influence the play in their half. I suppose Barry had an influence in their first 30mins, I'll give credit to our coaching team for the subsequent adjustment.

[tetsujin1979]

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