Bray and Cabo to merge?

[sbgawa]

Heard this from Rovers conections in terms of maybe there would be space for SRFC ii again next year
Also heard similar story from several Cabo people (full disclosure not officials)

Lot of smoke and they say there is no smoke without fire.
Would make sense Cabo have 1000 kids or thereabouts playing for them and Bray have no underage structure having just split with Joeys.

Cabray FC???

[pineapple stu]

Seems to be rumoured every pre-season in fairness.

Not to say the stopped clock mightn't be right this year, but still.

[Nesta99]

Why the split with Bray and the schoolboy setup, have they looked for a new senior option either?

[sbgawa]

Money and people usual stuff. from what I hear

Also joeys have gone backwards a lot over the last few years so aren't as attractive as they used to be for bray.

[sbgawa]

Negotiations begin for potential Cabinteely-Bray Wanderers merger (irishexaminer.com) (https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-40739433.html)

I agree with your comment Stu that it has been mooted before but there seems to be momentum behind it this year.
The LOI section of Cabo was quietly bought recently (a 75% share by Tony Richardson) with the remaining shares with the junior Club so the deal will go through quickly as the usual politics wont have to be listened too.

[pineapple stu]

Interesting. I mean, in as much as mergers ever make sense, this one does make a bit of sense as Cabo really only joined the LoI for the sake of their underage teams, and of course Pat Devlin is there and has strong Bray connections. I know the ground-share thing was suggested before and Bray turned it down, but this seems different. Though this paragraph is strange -


The timeline, as it stands, is the team being titled Bray/Cabinteely in 2022, Cabinteely/Bray in 2023 with a new brand encompassing the south Dublin/Wicklow region for 2024.

Of course, without wanting to flog a dead horse, Cabo being in the league in the first place is symptomatic of the stupid structure we have, whereby effectively any club can decide they want to compete in the second tier of the national league, even if they don't have a ground or a senior squad (as in Cabo's case)

[Bucket]

I don't see what's in it for Bray. Cabo have no assets, no supporters. They might have 1000 kids but 990 of them probably won't be good enough to play senior LOI. If they were to merge with anyone and change their name, it might make more sense to join with another Wicklow club or the Wicklow FA and try to get county-wide support. Wicklow Wanderers has a nice ring to it

[Seagull]

Joey's would have to be better than what they've set up now, a scattering of clubs based in Wicklow like Ardmore Rovers and Enniskerry. These clubs most certainly won't provide LOI level players for Bray so it seems very shortsighted.

[joey B]

From scanning Twitter this morning this merger is not going down well with Bray fans…..

[sbgawa]

I don't see what's in it for Bray. Cabo have no assets, no supporters. They might have 1000 kids but 990 of them probably won't be good enough to play senior LOI. If they were to merge with anyone and change their name, it might make more sense to join with another Wicklow club or the Wicklow FA and try to get county-wide support. Wicklow Wanderers has a nice ring to it

There is always this feeling that if the parents of those 1000 kids had a better offering than standing around a rugby pitch on the grass they would show up.
Honestly i dont believe it

[sidewayspasser]

Heard this from Rovers conections in terms of maybe there would be space for SRFC ii again next year
Even if the merger goes ahead, I think Rovers II might not be an automatic shoe-in for the place that becomes available, as there were a few applicants last year that weren't let in. The Irish Sea/Dublin County thing might be dead in the water, but what about Yola, St. Francis, or Limerick FC?

[Bucket]

There are a few teams in the underage LOI that were permitted entry into the leagues on the basis that they would eventually step up into the senior ranks. It's time to call in that agreement now. Either step up or get out

[total hoofball]

Merger would definitely weigh in benefit more for Cabinteely more than Bray. Cabinteely are not a conveyor-belt for players going to UK and none of their homegrown LOI players have established themselves moving onto Premier Division teams, Cabinteely have been great for many players who were let go by the other Dublin teams to get the opportunity of first team experience that would be a loss to the league. I just can't see Cabinteely lasting in the First Division unless they have their own proper ground/facilities to play in to properly develop their own players and this proposed merger may well be their final play

if Bray got promoted then there is definitely nothing in for them next season

[sbgawa]

You could argue that a cabray fc representing South County dublin / North Wicklow has greater commercial potential but I think its a leap to assume it would happen imo

[EatYerGreens]

Don't LOI clubs have to have underage link ups now (or is that just something the FAI engineered in Dublin) ?

[sbgawa]

Yes they have to have underage sections. Some dontheir own set ups , some others just link up with a local schoolboy team

[EatYerGreens]

Yes they have to have underage sections. Some dontheir own set ups , some others just link up with a local schoolboy team

So this would answer the 'what's in it for Bray' question, now that they don't have the St Josephs' link any more.

[JR89]

Even if the merger goes ahead, I think Rovers II might not be an automatic shoe-in for the place that becomes available, as there were a few applicants last year that weren't let in. The Irish Sea/Dublin County thing might be dead in the water, but what about Yola, St. Francis, or Limerick FC?

Limerick aren't or weren't allowed enter an U19s team for next season. They'll be nowhere near senior level thank god.

[ForzaForth]

Don't expect much traction behind any Yola application for next season. AFAIK, they've still never managed to field a team in any organised league and it's not believed that they would anything like the resources to put out Wexford's 7/8 teams at national level if they were granted the licence, including the 60 or so volunteers which facilitate this. Any notion of two clubs in Wexford getting licences seems very bizarre.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Limerick aren't or weren't allowed enter an U19s team for next season. They'll be nowhere near senior level thank god.

Yeah, I think POS has burned his bridges when it comes to the LOI. Treaty's commendable showing in the league this season only makes his outfit less palatable.

[total hoofball]

So this would answer the 'what's in it for Bray' question, now that they don't have the St Josephs' link any more.
Probably less hassle to link up with one of a multitude of decent schoolboy clubs in the south Dublin catchment area who will have less control over first team operations than Cabinteely unless there is first team cash coming in from the Cabinteely side

One of Cabinteely's problems in the LOI is that they have blooded too way many of their schoolboy products who are nowhere near ready for senior football into the LOI team going through 30-40 players most seasons, I would be confident Cabinteely would require significant representation of their own players in a merged squad no matter what division Bray end up in

[centre mid]

Seems to have some momentum behind the scenes but cant really see it being particularly popular. GAA have made huge inroads into South Co Dublin in the last 15 - 20 years and are hoovering up kids and parents into clubs. When I played football years ago in the LSL we nearly played a team from the borough (Dun Laoghire) every 2nd week there was that many. A lot of them have folded or merged. Football is losing its grip on schoolboys and girls.

Be a shame to lose the Bray Wanderers name but club has been close to extinction on a few occasions anyway.

[centre mid]

https://chng.it/PKsw6LFzRF

Link to petition to try and stop the merger

[David BOHie]

Seems to have some momentum behind the scenes but cant really see it being particularly popular. GAA have made huge inroads into South Co Dublin in the last 15 - 20 years and are hoovering up kids and parents into clubs. When I played football years ago in the LSL we nearly played a team from the borough (Dun Laoghire) every 2nd week there was that many. A lot of them have folded or merged. Football is losing its grip on schoolboys and girls.

Be a shame to lose the Bray Wanderers name but club has been close to extinction on a few occasions anyway.

Ouyt of curiosity, how many of outside of Bray support Bray? Was there ever a move to change the name to Wicklow Wanderers or just Wanderers?

I know Bray are an iconic institution, in LOI terms, but I think with some clubs the name leads to people having no association with an area. If Bray was called Wicklow would you get more buy in from Greystones etc.

[EatYerGreens]

Ouyt of curiosity, how many of outside of Bray support Bray? Was there ever a move to change the name to Wicklow Wanderers or just Wanderers?

I know Bray are an iconic institution, in LOI terms, but I think with some clubs the name leads to people having no association with an area. If Bray was called Wicklow would you get more buy in from Greystones etc.

As a primarily urban sport, football doesn't really do broad geographical names. Sligo Rovers get supporters from around their county, as well as Leitrim, Roscommon and even North Mayo as well - despite their name. Derry City get supporters from Tyrone and Donegal. Finn Harps from across Donegal, and a few from Tyrone too. Drogheda from Meath. Etc etc Meanwhile Kildare County had virtually no supporters from anywhere, despite their generic name.

Names do little or nothing to increase support for a football club. It's long years of hard work in the community building up intergenerational support that makes the big difference. That and winning stuff. There is no name-shaped magic bullet.

[total hoofball]

Ouyt of curiosity, how many of outside of Bray support Bray? Was there ever a move to change the name to Wicklow Wanderers or just Wanderers?

I know Bray are an iconic institution, in LOI terms, but I think with some clubs the name leads to people having no association with an area. If Bray was called Wicklow would you get more buy in from Greystones etc.
Greystones and most of the county isn't a thriving football hotspot. Then you add Bray being more a Dublin commuter belt town at the most north tip of the county with limited public transport links to the rest of the county I'd be struggling to see how a name change from Bray to Wicklow Wanderers would see any increase in support from the rest of the county

[pineapple stu]

And the east/west divide in Wicklow of course. If you're anywhere in West Wicklow, Shamrock Rovers are probably going to be closer. To get from east to west, you have to go over either the Sally Gap or the Wicklow Gap

[David BOHie]

As a primarily urban sport, football doesn't really do broad geographical names. Sligo Rovers get supporters from around their county, as well as Leitrim, Roscommon and even North Mayo as well - despite their name. Derry City get supporters from Tyrone and Donegal. Finn Harps from across Donegal, and a few from Tyrone too. Drogheda from Meath. Etc etc Meanwhile Kildare County had virtually no supporters from anywhere, despite their generic name.

Names do little or nothing to increase support for a football club. It's long years of hard work in the community building up intergenerational support that makes the big difference. That and winning stuff. There is no name-shaped magic bullet.

I must disagree with that. I think the Dublin clubs' non-descript names really help them get support outside of their locality. I'm a southsider and support Bohs. If they were called Phibsboro I probably wouldn't. I know a lot of Bohs support extends from Ashbourne to Swords too. I know Rovers have supporters clubs in a lot of east Leinster etc. I'm not sure they'd be as popular if they were called Ringsend or Tallaght.

Greystones also has Greystones UTD who compete at a reasonably high level in the LSL (third tier I think) and they have pretty good facilities. I wouldn't discount them altogether. The Kildare comparison doesn't really stand up either if you were to flesh it out. Kildare County were just created out of thin air by members of Newbridge Town. Bray do have a lot of history, and with the right marketing could become really well supported across Wicklow.

Now I accept Bray aren't my club and I wouldn't be in favour of renaming Bohs but it was just a question I said I'd ask initially.

[sadloserkid]

Dublin City didn't exactly thrive and they literally adopted the name to try and create a broader appeal. Then again being called Home Farm wasn't packing the terraces either.

[sbgawa]

The only benefit I can see from a merger is the potentially larger commercial income that could be leveraged from a dublin south base, I think that's more hope than fact based though

[Nesta99]

Just reading the proposal to have Bray/Cabo one year and Cabo/Bray the next of whichever order and already there is a sense of potential problems - like one of those comedic bits on TV where x name comes first matters. Just pick a name and be done with it. Cavan/Monaghan dont need to rotate the name. Maybe its to appease fans short term but its pretty superficial. Its has a whiff of the old St Patrick's Athletic including St Francis F.C/Dublin Saints messing. I suppose I can understand Bray fans with the greater LoI pedigree feeling their name should stick but it could be a positive merger. Not as if its trying to merge North Korea with anyone. Wanderers United would be grand!?

[John83]

And the east/west divide in Wicklow of course. If you're anywhere in West Wicklow, Shamrock Rovers are probably going to be closer. To get from east to west, you have to go over either the Sally Gap or the Wicklow Gap
There aren't any major population centres in west Wicklow, are there? Blessington is the biggest, and it's a big village.

[pineapple stu]

Well true. There's a few other places - Baltinglass, Tinahely and so on - but yeah, 90% of Wicklow is on the east coast.

[EatYerGreens]

I must disagree with that. I think the Dublin clubs' non-descript names really help them get support outside of their locality. I'm a southsider and support Bohs. If they were called Phibsboro I probably wouldn't. I know a lot of Bohs support extends from Ashbourne to Swords too. I know Rovers have supporters clubs in a lot of east Leinster etc. I'm not sure they'd be as popular if they were called Ringsend or Tallaght.

You've just described a phenomena that is common in capital cities of having football teams that are not named after places/neighbourhoods e.g. Linfield, Shamrock Rovers, Hibernians, Arsenal (I know the historical Woolwich bit from donkeys ago), Club America, Cruz Azul. None of the 4 main clubs in Belfast are named after areas, for example, and it's the same with the 4 senior Dublin clubs (UCD is named after an institution, not an area). It's just one of those things often in capital cities. It's pretty rare beyond capitals - what clubs outside of Dublin or Belfast are not named after a place ? Finn Harps and Glenavon are the only ones I can think of.

It's probably to do with the fact that georgraphical areas in cities are quite physically small and people can be very parochial about them. As you've just confirmed yourself there re your comments re not supporting Bohs if they'd been called Phibsboro.

[El-Pietro]

You've just described a phenomena that is common in capital cities of having football teams that are not named after places/neighbourhoods e.g. Linfield, Shamrock Rovers, Hibernians, Arsenal (I know the historical Woolwich bit from donkeys ago), Club America, Cruz Azul. None of the 4 main clubs in Belfast are named after areas, for example, and it's the same with the 4 senior Dublin clubs (UCD is named after an institution, not an area). It's just one of those things often in capital cities. It's pretty rare beyond capitals - what clubs outside of Dublin or Belfast are not named after a place ? Finn Harps and Glenavon are the only ones I can think of.

It's probably to do with the fact that georgraphical areas in cities are quite physically small and people can be very parochial about them. As you've just confirmed yourself there re your comments re not supporting Bohs if they'd been called Phibsboro.
Treaty are the other, though thats due to a strange set of circumstances. Fordsons in Cork once upon a time named after the Ford Factory. Are Finn Harps named for the Finn Valley? Is that a real thing or am I imagining it? I googled it and there seem to be a lot of things named Finn Valley but in the 30 seconds I took to look I couldn't see any specifics about it as a geographic name.

[2 Year Contract]

Treaty are the other, though thats due to a strange set of circumstances. Fordsons in Cork once upon a time named after the Ford Factory. Are Finn Harps named for the Finn Valley? Is that a real thing or am I imagining it? I googled it and there seem to be a lot of things named Finn Valley but in the 30 seconds I took to look I couldn't see any specifics about it as a geographic name.

Named after the River Finn that runs through Ballybofey and behind the ground

[joey B]

Harps are named after the River Finn and the Finn Valley is very much a thing,I’d always see it as the area from Lifford to Ballybofey but it’s not exactly set in stone …

[EatYerGreens]

Harps are named after the River Finn and the Finn Valley is very much a thing,I’d always see it as the area from Lifford to Ballybofey but it’s not exactly set in stone …

It's probably more set in water tbh :cool:

[David BOHie]

You've just described a phenomena that is common in capital cities of having football teams that are not named after places/neighbourhoods e.g. Linfield, Shamrock Rovers, Hibernians, Arsenal (I know the historical Woolwich bit from donkeys ago), Club America, Cruz Azul. None of the 4 main clubs in Belfast are named after areas, for example, and it's the same with the 4 senior Dublin clubs (UCD is named after an institution, not an area). It's just one of those things often in capital cities. It's pretty rare beyond capitals - what clubs outside of Dublin or Belfast are not named after a place ? Finn Harps and Glenavon are the only ones I can think of.

It's probably to do with the fact that georgraphical areas in cities are quite physically small and people can be very parochial about them. As you've just confirmed yourself there re your comments re not supporting Bohs if they'd been called Phibsboro.


I'm not sure about that. There's a fair few I found with only a few seconds google. Juventus, Atalanta, Real Sociedad, Osasuna - I could name a lot more too. Then on the flip side you have Arsenal, Tottenham, Chelsea, Fulham etc.

[El-Pietro]

I'm not sure about that. There's a fair few I found with only a few seconds google. Juventus, Atalanta, Real Sociedad, Osasuna - I could name a lot more too. Then on the flip side you have Arsenal, Tottenham, Chelsea, Fulham etc.

The highest ranking London club that doesn't appear to be named for their original neighbourhood is Corinthian-Casuals in the seventh tier. They came about after the merging of two teams, Corinthians and Casuals, neither of which was named for a georgraphic area as far as I can tell.

There are a few other clubs who may not appear to be named for a place but in each case there was a physical location associated.
Arsenal were originally Dial Square FC, which is a location in Woolwich. They changed their name to Royal Arsenal shortly after, and thats a building in the same area. They later became Woolwich Arsenal, and simply dropped the Woolwich part when they moved to North London. So their name is based on geography, they just moved away from the thing they were named for.
Millwall is an area on the Isle of Dogs.
Queens Park is a physical park.
Crystal Palace is/was an exhibition hall with some dodgy looking dinosaurs.

[nr637]

Should the merger reach a conclusion, the FAI will seek to fill the vacancy in the First Division?

Rumour that the FAI are also exploring a proposal to introduce a third tier.

And who would they like to apply anyone!

[EatYerGreens]

The highest ranking London club that doesn't appear to be named for their original neighbourhood is Corinthian-Casuals in the seventh tier. They came about after the merging of two teams, Corinthians and Casuals, neither of which was named for a georgraphic area as far as I can tell.

There are a few other clubs who may not appear to be named for a place but in each case there was a physical location associated.
Arsenal were originally Dial Square FC, which is a location in Woolwich. They changed their name to Royal Arsenal shortly after, and thats a building in the same area. They later became Woolwich Arsenal, and simply dropped the Woolwich part when they moved to North London. So their name is based on geography, they just moved away from the thing they were named for.
Millwall is an area on the Isle of Dogs.
Queens Park is a physical park.
Crystal Palace is/was an exhibition hall with some dodgy looking dinosaurs.

The English are an exception to the rule. There are only 3 clubs in the 92 team Football league which aren't named after a place (it was 2 until quite recently). That's fewer than the 10-team LOI Premier Division, where 4 clubs are not named after a place, and fewer again than the Irish league's top tier, where it's 5 of the 12 teams.

Contrast England with Scotland - where 5 of its 12 Top tier teams, 7 of the 22 teams in the top 2 tiers, and 8 in total across the 42 team Scottish league are not named after places. A pretty high proportion. Or the Irish league, where 9 of the 36 teams in its top 3 tiers are not named after places. Higher still.

In short - The English have an unusually low number of football teams not named after actual places.

[pineapple stu]

And so it comes to pass -

1464187369834360833

Another failure for the First Division unfortunately. Are Bray the only side to be elected to the league since 85 and not subsequently go bust?

If the proposed third tier is where B teams top out, who's going to take the new FD space?

[D24Saint]

Does this mean that Rovers B will be taken off the shelf by the FAI to pad out the FD ?

[DCSIL]

Get Irish Sea FC in or we Riot

[Eminence Grise]

I wish them well, but I can't help wonder, looking at the headline on the presser, if there shouldn't be an 'a' somewhere in 'new force'.

[total hoofball]

It's a Cabinteely takeover of Bray in all but name. Bad day for the league

[sbgawa]

Feel sorry for all the underage LOI teams 14s,15,17s etc as half of the players are being ditched now with joint training sessions to decide who to keep.
They all had assumed they would be back in Jan for pre season with their own clubs.
That's football though i suppose , an early lesson.

[nr637]

Cab Wanderers FC, any choice for a name? Might be a bit strange cheering Caaaab, Caaaab, Caaaaaaaaaaaa! :call:

Maybe Pat O'Sullivan will try and get Limerick FC back into the First Division again!
Did'nt they participate in the Airtricity Legues at U14/15 & 17's in 2021?

[D24Saint]

Is the Carlisle Grounds to be sold now ? Or is it be the home venue for the new club.