Anti-vaxxers

[tetsujin1979]

Nah nah nah, you aren’t getting away with that. What was Sweden death rate in 2020 and compare it to the previous 5 years, I already did that from doing my research and found the excess death rate is no different to the previous 5 years.
8,000 more people died in Sweden last year than in the average for the previous five years, that's what the graph I linked to shows
There's another comparison between the deaths in 2020 and 2021 with previous years in Sweden here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Sweden#Excess_mortality
Clear spikes in April, May, and December of 2020 and January of this year
I'd be intrigued to see this research of yours


It sort of is though weather he likes it or not.
Are you saying you know better on the holocaust than the memorial at Auschwitz?

[CSAD]

Have you a link to support anything you're saying?

Because tets gave a link which showed excess mortality. And I have a link to support excess mortality. Why should we believe you (with no supporting whatsoever) over Reuters, the King of Sweden, and the ****ing Prime Minister of Sweden?

Did you not read what I said, I’ve given you some information to search now get to work, I found it so you can too. Yeah that only showed to Jan 2020, 2015-2019 is what needs to be clearly outlined also otherwise it’s no good.

I never said take my word for it, go searching yourself now, you have the internet, you have information from me now you can go see if it’s true or not.


There's a comparison between the deaths in 2020 and 2021 with previous years in Sweden here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Sweden#Excess_mortality
Clear spikes in April and May of 2020, and December of 2020 and January of this year
I'd be intrigued to see this research of yours


Are you saying you know better on the holocaust than the memorial at Auschwitz?

Pretty sure I asked 5 years, not 1 year.

Everything that’s gone on points to it so I must know more surely. Love to see how they aren’t comparable.

[John83]

Because I’ve told you information, now it’s up to you to get off your ass and research it, I found this information from digging for it so believe you can too if you really want to. Just like you buy the crap that lockdowns work just because someone from our clown shop of a government said it did, the last thing someone from government wants to do is tell us the lockdown was for nothing so they ofcourse will say they worked…
You were told information too, but only the other side has to provide any links? Colour me unsurprised.

[pineapple stu]

Did you not read what I said, I’ve given you some information to search now get to work, I found it so you can too. Yeah that only showed to Jan 2020, 2015-2019 is what needs to be clearly outlined also otherwise it’s no good.

I never said take my word for it, go searching yourself now, you have the internet, you have information from me now you can go see if it’s true or not.
I did, and I saw no links in your post.

I have gone to the internet and posted many links which disprove what you're saying.

Why should I believe your baseless comments?

[tetsujin1979]

Pretty sure I asked 5 years, not 1 year.

Everything that’s gone on points to it so I must know more surely. Love to see how they aren’t comparable.
If you clicked the link, you'd see it compares deaths in Sweden in the last two years with the previous five.

[CSAD]

Have you a link to support anything you're saying? Anything at all like?

Because tets gave a link which showed excess mortality. And I gave a link to support excess mortality. Why should we believe you (with no supporting whatsoever) over Reuters, the King of Sweden, and the ****ing Prime Minister of Sweden?

You haven't given one iota of information. I'm not going to go googling your random theories on the off chance I stumble on the same conspiracy theory page as you've been on. You show me where your info is coming from and then we can assess it; that's how reasoned debate works.

People have been hit by cars since they were invented. The reason to look at excess mortality is to explicitly remove stuff like people dying with covid (but not of covid). If there is excess mortality - and tets has shown that there is - then that's a fact independent of car crash victims happening to have covid. In simple terms - if the number of people dying in car crashes in 2019 was the same as in 2020, and if there was significant excess mortality in 2020 (which there was in April in particular), then that's got nothing to do with car crashes. That's the effect of a pandemic.

Ah see already writing it off before even searching is why I haven’t bothered engaging, you clearly only want to believe one side of the argument and nothing else so it’s like talking to the wall even trying to debate this. You believe totally flawed data and simple statements to make you’re case which is why it doesn’t mean Jack **** to me.

Yeah tets data has compared the previous 5 years, people usually die in high numbers during the same months even in those years due to viruses like the flu, if you had data to show the previous 5 years to show that this death rate isn’t much worse maybe id believe you but you clearly don’t.

For a pandemic there does seem to be a huge effort to boost the death count…thankfully the excess death rate shows this up.


If you clicked the link, you'd see it compares deaths in Sweden in the last two years with the previous five.

I haven’t seen where it shows Sweden’s death rate clearly from the previous years in detail, that’s what’s required here.


I did, and I saw no links in your post.

I have gone to the internet and posted many links which disprove what you're saying.

Why should I believe your baseless comments?

Except your links are a load of complete ********.

I don’t really give a **** if you believe me or not, all I’m trying trying to do is bring common sense to the table and all you are bringing is …well nonsense really.

[pineapple stu]

Why are my links a load of complete ********?

The BBC, Reuters, the HSE, the Irish Times - why are these ********? Why is the data flawed and simplistic?

You have to give a reason for your views. Because otherwise, I'm calling bull**** on your claim of bull****. And I'm believing the BBC, the HSE, my own eyes when I see India run out of ****ing medical oxygen due to covid treatments.

[passinginterest]

I think one of the most interesting things to come out of the Robinson debate is the vastly different approach of the Irish public and media to what has been happening in the UK. There's a reason we have such a high vaccination rate, people have really responded to the calls for personal responsibility and listened to the medical advice, the anti vax conspiracy groups have remained a tiny fringe. In the UK and elsewhere Robinson wouldn't have been questioned on his stance at all, and he presumably expected the same, not realising how strongly pro-vaccine we are. Ironically, of the unvaccinated players in the squad, Robinson is probably the least worrying, as he's had the virus twice his natural immunity should be very high and as has been pointed out he meets all the requirements for an EU travel cert, indoor dining etc. as it is. If any player could be excused from not getting it now (with the risk of a short term impact from the vaccine disrupting his fitness) it's Robinson. It's laudable how well the Irish public have responded and taken up the vaccine and we've seen domestic clubs as well as other professional sports here confirming very high uptake, hopefully that might hit home with some of the other reluctant players in the national squad now.

[Mr A]

I work with people in India on a daily basis. When things were bad there with the Delta variant the stuff I was hearing on a daily basis was heart wrenching. Most of the folks who work for the company were fine- the company went all out to look after them and their families, getting treatment for them, oxygen, vaccines, removing all work pressure and even giving loans to help people through were needed. But still one of our staff died and a huge number were infected, in one case half a team was out at the same time. Many many more lost friends and in several cases whole families died in the most awful of circumstances. Long Covid remains an issue for some, including one man who was young and a health fanatic.

We are very fortunate here that whatever mistakes we made along the way, we never got to a stage where we were overwhelmed. That makes complacency about Covid a lot easier of course. But the vast, vast majority of the population pulled together, the authorities generally were competent in their response and people did not embrace misinformation like they did elsewhere. And that's a damn good thing.

[tetsujin1979]

I haven’t seen where it shows Sweden’s death rate clearly from the previous years in detail, that’s what’s required here.
I'm going to try this one last time, here is a graph of the deaths from each month in the last six years in Sweden, grouped by month, from the link I provided
As you can see, there are clear spikes in April, May, and December of last year, and January of this year.
https://i.ibb.co/TLgSmGR/sweden.png (https://ibb.co/C2HZhyv)

[Diggs246]

I work with people in India on a daily basis. When things were bad there with the Delta variant the stuff I was hearing on a daily basis was heart wrenching. Most of the folks who work for the company were fine- the company went all out to look after them and their families, getting treatment for them, oxygen, vaccines, removing all work pressure and even giving loans to help people through were needed. But still one of our staff died and a huge number were infected, in one case half a team was out at the same time. Many many more lost friends and in several cases whole families died in the most awful of circumstances. Long Covid remains an issue for some, including one man who was young and a health fanatic.

We are very fortunate here that whatever mistakes we made along the way, we never got to a stage where we were overwhelmed. That makes complacency about Covid a lot easier of course. But the vast, vast majority of the population pulled together, the authorities generally were competent in their response and people did not embrace misinformation like they did elsewhere. And that's a damn good thing.

110% correct, we are luckily to be both educated and non-selfish ****s.
So choosing to ignore the undeniable data is outrageous.
Callum Robinson and every other anti-vax idiots in our squad, who are wealthy healthy young men and to turn around and to risk the most vulnerable people in our society... is quite frankly the most un-Irish thing I've ever seen.. We protect our vulnerable that is who we are. we don't take a view from the internet and "unwittingly" kill an innocent person or people.

[sbgawa]

Would it be unreasonable to charge say €1000 per day to unvaccinated people in hospital and €5000 for those in ICU unless they had a MEDICAL (according to Medical doctors) reason for not taking the vaccine. Given not taking the vaccine dramatically increases your chances of needing to be hospitalized not taking one should have an implication.
If you leave your keys in the car and its stolen your insurance company wont pay out as you could reasonably have avoided the theft by taking action.
Same principal.
My experience with idiots is you have to make things really simple and really painful to make them concentrate and understand.
If its just a debate then facts dont matter to these people.

[pineapple stu]

It's effectively what they're doing in Israel I think

And Delta Airlines are doing something similar (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/aug/25/delta-airlines-impose-200-monthly-fee-unvaccinated-employees).

Don't see any problems with it. People have to have some sort of responsibility for their decisions.

[Real ale Madrid]

Did you not read what I said, I’ve given you some information to search now get to work, I found it so you can too. Yeah that only showed to Jan 2020, 2015-2019 is what needs to be clearly outlined also otherwise it’s no good.

I never said take my word for it, go searching yourself now, you have the internet, you have information from me now you can go see if it’s true or not.

Its an interesting way of getting someone to change their views.

Here is my theory. How can I prove it? Well, YOU WILL JUST HAVE TO LOOK IT UP!

[seanfhear]

Something tells me Callum Robinson does not give two hoots what people thinks of what he decides to do with is body. The Irish management were free to pick him or not pick him. They chose to pick him.

[pineapple stu]

Yes. But none of that challenges the ignorance of his actions, nor the validity of people's complaints about his behaviour.

Which is what we were talking about

[seanfhear]

Yes. But none of that challenges the ignorance of his actions, nor the validity of people's complaints about his behaviour.

Which is what we were talking about
You’d wonder considering all the bru ha ha ~ Why did the Irish Management pick him ?

[pineapple stu]

To play football I guess.

But again, that doesn't challenge the ignorance of his actions, nor the validity of people's complaints about his behaviour.

[seanfhear]

Funny how the Irish Management is picking so many players ( apparently there are a number in the squad not vaccinated ) that are Not Vaxxed.

[Diggs246]

Funny how the Irish Management is picking so many players ( apparently there are a number in the squad not vaccinated ) that are Not Vaxxed.

Kenny is picking them to try save his job.

[pineapple stu]

Funny how the Irish Management is picking so many players ( apparently there are a number in the squad not vaccinated ) that are Not Vaxxed.
Funny how the anti-vaxxers are either making points that have nothing to do with the thread, or providing no backup whatsoever for their points while ignoring the evidence others are giving.

[sbgawa]

todays figures 67% of people in hospital are unvacinated while the same bunch of gob****es represent only 8% of the population.
Even csad might have a problem dismissing those facts.
Although i know anecdote trumps facts with the lower IQ merchants

[seanfhear]

Kenny is picking them to try save his job.
Well, the Irish management must not consider it all that important to be vaccinated when that management is picking so many players that are Not vaccinated ! !

[pineapple stu]

Which, again, has nothing to do with the point being debated.

While sbgawa's post is exactly on the money.

[seanfhear]

Which, again, has nothing to do with the point being debated.

While sbgawa's post is exactly on the money.
But it does indicate that the Irish Management do not think that it is that important or they would not be picking players that are un-vaccinated.

[pineapple stu]

You still haven't said why that's relevant to the overall societal discussion though.

Football team meeting for five days and functional society having to pay for hospital treatments are two different things, wouldn't you agree?

[seanfhear]

You still haven't said why that's relevant to the overall societal discussion though.

Football team meeting for five days and functional society having to pay for hospital treatments are two different things, wouldn't you agree?
But neither the FAI or the Football Management Team consider that ~ quite a number of players have not been vaccinated that important = = Coz if they did they would not have picked these players.

[pineapple stu]

Once again, your argument makes literally no sense.

The FAI are trying to pick a team to win a football match.

We are discussing societal issues such as clogging up hospital beds.

I'm not sure how you can't see the difference between these two really very different things.

[seanfhear]

Once again, your argument makes literally no sense.

The FAI are trying to pick a team to win a football match.

We are discussing societal issues such as clogging up hospital beds.

I'm not sure how you can't see the difference between these two really very different things.
Why have the Government not made its position clear to the FAI on such an important matter if they consider it such an important matter ?

[pineapple stu]

It's again really hard to work out what your point is when you just repeat the same inane irrelevancy over and over again.

The Government has made its point clear - it strongly recommends vaccination and is doing everything it can to facilitate it. The discussion at the start of this thread - which you seem resolutely intent on ignoring - was on to what extent the Government can force vaccination on people, and it was broadly agreed that while it can't tie people down and administer vaccines, it can and should discriminate against non-vaccinated people.

But Robinson lives in England and is first and foremost English (let's be honest here), so there is a limited amount the Government can really do about him.

Once again - because I don't want you to think you can get away from the core point by waffling about irrelevant stuff - nothing you've said challenges the ignorance of Robinson's actions, nor the validity of people's complaints about his behaviour.

[John83]

Why have the Government not made its position clear to the FAI on such an important matter if they consider it such an important matter ?
Your posts boil down to "it's not illegal, so it must be fine", which is juvenile at best. The government has bigger fish to fry than micromanaging team selection for the national football team. That would be banana republic nonsense.

[seanfhear]

Your posts boil down to "it's not illegal, so it must be fine", which is juvenile at best. The government has bigger fish to fry than micromanaging team selection for the national football team. That would be banana republic nonsense.
The Government has stuck their nose in to plenty else re; Covid. Why not the International football team ?

[pineapple stu]

You may recall games were played behind closed doors for quite a while of course.

In any event, the Government doesn't need to micromanage the FAI because UEFA and FIFA set the rules. You'll know plenty of those rules because we've fallen victim of too many of them. Aaron Connolly (I think) being ruled out of a game because he sat two inches too close to a confirmed case being the obvious one.

So you're wrong, seanfhear. In everything you've said

[tetsujin1979]

The Government has stuck their nose in to plenty else re; Covid. Why not the International football team ?
Because it's banned by FIFA?

[seanfhear]

Because it's banned by FIFA?
Surely national emergencies can over-rule FIFA.

[pineapple stu]

FIFA's rules were based on the fact that there was a worldwide emergency. Why would the Government get involved when appropriate action had already been taken by the appropriate body?

I wonder is "dumbass" still a suitable word on foot after all these years? Cos it's getting fairly close to having to be trotted out here.

[seanfhear]

FIFA's rules were based on the fact that there was a worldwide emergency. Why would the Government get involved when appropriate action had already been taken by the appropriate body?

I wonder is "dumbass" still a suitable word on foot after all these years? Cos it's getting fairly close to having to be trotted out here.
You are getting a mite touchy there.

[pineapple stu]

Another post without a point seanfhear.

One of these days you might make a point we can discuss

[sadloserkid]

todays figures 67% of people in hospital are unvacinated while the same bunch of gob****es represent only 8% of the population.
Even csad might have a problem dismissing those facts.

He appears to have vanished upon Tet's last graph regarding deaths in Sweden.

[mark12345]

I'm not forcing anyone to be vaccinated.

I am saying it is profoundly stupid, ignorant, selfish, and dangerous for more people than just you to choose not to be vaccinated.

Stu, the virus can be deadly but so can the vaccine. Some (particularly young people) have gotten miocarditis (pretty sure I spelled that wrong) which is fluid around the heart after getting the shot. Many others have died and the authorities in many countries will not release those figures. If we had full disclosure on all things related to the virus then perhaps people would be more willing to take the shot. In addition there are treatments like Ivermectin and Hydroxychloriquine which have proved really effective (Ivermectin reportedly stopped the virus dead in its tracks in some Indian provinces) in combating the virus. Yet the authorities keep this under wraps. Why? What is their motive?

[tetsujin1979]

Stu, the virus can be deadly but so can the vaccine. Some (particularly young people) have gotten miocarditis (pretty sure I spelled that wrong) which is fluid around the heart after getting the shot. Many others have died and the authorities in many countries will not release those figures. If we had full disclosure on all things related to the virus then perhaps people would be more willing to take the shot. In addition there are treatments like Ivermectin and Hydroxychloriquine which have proved really effective (Ivermectin reportedly stopped the virus dead in its tracks in some Indian provinces) in combating the virus. Yet the authorities keep this under wraps. Why? What is their motive?
How can you know about figures that haven't been released?

[pineapple stu]

Ah, the old "the vaccine kills people too" lark.

With no evidence whatsoever of course, and with a completely unsubstantiated suggestion of conspiracy from the authorities.

Give me patience...

[mark12345]

Ah, the old "the vaccine kills people too" lark.

With no evidence whatsoever of course, and with a completely unsubstantiated suggestion of conspiracy from the authorities.

Give me patience...

No, I think I'm the one that needs patience.

[mark12345]

Waste of time even trying to discuss this.

[pineapple stu]

You're not trying to discuss it.

If you were trying to discuss it, you would be able to give some sort of evidence to support your view (like Tets and I have done for our views)

But you've got nothing (just like CSAD and seanfhear before you)

[sbgawa]

Could mark12345 , Seanfear or CSAD just explain why 67% of people in hospital are unvaccinated but only 8% of the population are unvacinated.
No prevarication , no deflection, no anecdotes about vaccine efficacy just explain this simple stat released by the HSE.

Q silence or a new conspiracy theory about the vaccinated are being treated in a secret underground hospital in the Midlands to hide the numbers ...

[pineapple stu]

Almost 50 ICU beds being occupied completely needlessly, taking away resources which could instead be used reducing waiting lists.

[John83]

In addition there are treatments like Ivermectin and Hydroxychloriquine which have proved really effective (Ivermectin reportedly stopped the virus dead in its tracks in some Indian provinces) in combating the virus. Yet the authorities keep this under wraps. Why? What is their motive?
Here's the Indian Council of Medical Research saying that the evidence from trials and metastudies for either of the drugs you mentioned is far too weak to use them outside of clinical trials.
https://www.icmr.gov.in/pdf/covid/techdoc/Considerations_for_Exclusion_of_IVM_and_HCQ.pdf

But hey, what do they know? They're only the best doctors in India reading extensive medical trial data.

[samhaydenjr]

Stu, the virus can be deadly but so can the vaccine. Some (particularly young people) have gotten miocarditis (pretty sure I spelled that wrong) which is fluid around the heart after getting the shot. Many others have died and the authorities in many countries will not release those figures. If we had full disclosure on all things related to the virus then perhaps people would be more willing to take the shot. In addition there are treatments like Ivermectin and Hydroxychloriquine which have proved really effective (Ivermectin reportedly stopped the virus dead in its tracks in some Indian provinces) in combating the virus. Yet the authorities keep this under wraps. Why? What is their motive?

One minute on Google and I found this:

The Clalit-Beilinson study analyzed medical information from 2.5 million members of the healthcare provider who vaccinated with Pfizer. Some 54 cases of myocarditis (https://www.jpost.com/health-science/covid-health-ministry-finds-some-myocarditis-cases-linked-to-vaccines-669835) were recorded, 76% of which were classified as mild, 22% intermediate. One case presented severe symptoms.
Men were more likely to present the side effect than women (4.12 compared to 0.23 every 100,000 individuals). The group with the highest incidence was young men between 16-29, with 10.69 cases per 100,000 persons.

https://www.jpost.com/health-and-wellness/coronavirus/risk-of-myocarditis-very-minor-from-covid-vaccine-israeli-research-shows-681389

One serious (I believe non-fatal) case in 2.5 million. Meanwhile COVID has killed 700,000 Americans and probably left 5-10 million with long-term health problems. If the United States had the same death rate as Canada (and our response wasn't perfect), then 400000-500000 Americans would still be alive. At this point, the actions of those who have opposed and defied lockdowns, masking and vaccines can be accurately described as Collective Mass Murder


Almost 50 ICU beds being occupied completely needlessly, taking away resources which could instead be used reducing waiting lists.

Totally agree

[dahamsta]

I’ve given you some information to search now get to work, I found it so you can too.

That's not how it works here. Read this post (https://foot.ie/threads/32644-Rules-amp-Info-Current-Affairs-ONLY-Please!) before you post in CA again. Next time you make a claim, back it up with evidence or don't post it.