Anti-vaxxers

[paul_oshea]

It would give us a great boost, as well as providing the vital shot in the arm both Ireland and Robinson need.

[pineapple stu]

Tbf I think there is a distinction to be made between people going about how the vaccine is a Microsoft conspiracy (and lets throw Soros in there, he's always involved) and people who question the extent of state reach/over-reach.
There is and there isn't.

They're different things, for sure, but I think in this case they're both arriving at the same conclusion (and I'd say sometimes the latter is used as a front for the former), so they're at least somewhat related. And is there State over-reach? I'm not sure there is. Vaccines aren't forced on anyone. If nothing else, it would be very difficult from a practical viewpoint to administer a vaccine to someone who simply didn't want it. But the State absolutely has a duty to the greater good of all its citizens, and if that means discriminating against people who haven't had vaccines (in Israel they're charging them for their covid treatment for example), then I think that's entirely reasonable.

If that's the case, and apropos of any real tangible argument to the contrary (and I didn't see any on the Callum Robinson thread that spawned this one), then arguably the idea of State over-reach is just another conspiracy theory.

[geysir]

What we really need is a defibrillator boost.

[Mr_Parker]

-Just taking these posts from another thread as directed, so I can respond.



Shocking witch hunt by some towards this player. I am double vaccinated and would encourage others to do the same. However I will fully support any individuals right to chose not to do so, regardless of their reasons. It is the most basic of human rights to chose what you do to your own body. Remove such rights and you will end up living in a totalitarian state, though we are all well on our way to one of those.


Someone hasn't remotely read the reasons why your vaccination status impacts society as a whole and not just the individual.

I am well aware of that. However, people who chose not to do so should not be hung out. It is their choice and their right. You have no idea of the reasons why individuals make any of their life choices and they are under no obligation to explain themselves.


I think your forgetting it doesn't just effect him. 5,000 of our people are dead. He is a selfish penis.. no-one is forcing him to get it

No one is forcing him, but you along with many others are trying to shame him into doing so. Either you believe in human rights or you don't. Hundreds of people die from flu each year in Ireland. Do you believe all those who haven't had a flu jab are selfish too? Should they be questioned and ridculled too?

[irishfan86]

I get the desire to move conversations about the vaccine generally to the off topic forums -- but if we're talking about Robinson's decision not to get vaccinated and the footballing implications of that specifically -- I think that should be fair game in this thread.

[tetsujin1979]

I get the desire to move conversations about the vaccine generally to the off topic forums -- but if we're talking about Robinson's decision not to get vaccinated and the footballing implications of that specifically -- I think that should be fair game in this thread.

Yes, that's fine, but keep it to Robinson's choice, and its implications only

Anyway, if you want to discuss Robinsons choice not to have the vaccine (which I don't agree with) that's ok, if you want to debate whether or not mandating the vaccine is a political issue, there's a current affairs forum for that

[geysir]

There are no implications arising from Robinson's choice for this period in time. He has recovered from Covid and for the following 6 months he is officially recognised as having a similar health status as vaccinated folk.

[pineapple stu]

I suppose the only implication is whether his performance is the same as pre covid. It's been known to knock the stuffing out of players (didn't Jack Byrne get a particularly nasty dose?) and they've not quite been the same afterwards.

But 3 goals in 10 league games so far this season is comparable with his last spell in the second tier in 2019/20 (3 in 16), so I guess he's still a fairly moderately-skilled forward who's not entirely sure where the goal is.

[pineapple stu]

I don't really agree with that.

The more people that are vaccinated in society right now, the safer I am, even though I'm vaccinated. Unvaccinated people clog up hospital beds for example. They also help the virus to continue spreading and mutating, and maybe develop a new form that the vaccine doesn't cover (this was a fear with the Delta variant, I think). Helping the virus to spread obviously impacts those few people who for legitimate reasons can't receive the vaccine but who may be at high risk of covid.

Anti-vaxxers don't have to go on TV and make a broadcast to the nation. But I do think they should have to properly discuss their decision with, say, their GP or a medical professional. They certainly shouldn't think that they could hide behind something as selfish as "It's my choice and my body" and it is entirely right to call them out on that. Vaccination against a pandemic is a societal issue, not an individual issue. The bigger picture trumps individual rights here.

[liamoo11]

I suppose the only implication is whether his performance is the same as pre covid. It's been known to knock the stuffing out of players (didn't Jack Byrne get a particularly nasty dose?) and they've not quite been the same afterwards.

But 3 goals in 10 league games so far this season is comparable with his last spell in the second tier in 2019/20 (3 in 16), so I guess he's still a fairly moderately-skilled forward who's not entirely sure where the goal is.

Sure the Tyrone lads were flying fit after all the covid they had so maybe callum has a bit of red hand in him. As geysir says above he has had covid so his status is same as someone who has been vaccinated at present as in eating indoors etc so don't really see what all tge fuss is, especially as he has had covid twice.

[Diggs246]

Sure the Tyrone lads were flying fit after all the covid they had so maybe callum has a bit of red hand in him. As geysir says above he has had covid so his status is same as someone who has been vaccinated at present as in eating indoors etc so don't really see what all tge fuss is, especially as he has had covid twice.
After catching covid Do u not still need one vaccine to be deemed vaccinated?

[pineapple stu]

If you've recovered from covid in the past six months, then for travel purposes that's as good as a negative PCR test or a vaccine cert.

[paul_oshea]

Sure the Tyrone lads were flying fit after all the covid they had so maybe callum has a bit of red hand in him. As geysir says above he has had covid so his status is same as someone who has been vaccinated at present as in eating indoors etc so don't really see what all tge fuss is, especially as he has had covid twice.

I thought you need to do that test though to prove a high level of antibodies in the blood? Because some peoples immunity dissipates much faster than others

[Olé Olé]

I really don't agree with his medical stance but he was subjected to a media pile on today. Claire Byrne and Joe Duffy were licking their lips. Duffy stated “that means he’s had Covid more times than he’s scored for Ireland”. Cheap.

He obviously hasn't been watching or listening to RTE over the last 18 months or else he'd have anticipated the backlash. Would have been better off had he kept his mouth shut.

[liamoo11]

I thought you need to do that test though to prove a high level of antibodies in the blood? Because some peoples immunity dissipates much faster than others

I don't think so not in ireland anyway yiu just need to show u had a positive pcr within the last 6 months. The antibody levels are likely to be different between individuals regardless of weather they had covid or were vaccinated I'm not aware if there is a cut off point where they are considered too low. Also I guess its not easy to test t cell levels in the wider population to get a broader view of the likely immune response to covid infection

[osarusan]

But I do think they should have to properly discuss their decision with, say, their GP or a medical professional.

How though? As you said about the vaccine itself, getting them to talk to these people is very difficult from a practical point of view. How can they be forced/cajoled into it?

What, if anything, can be done if they simply refuse?

[CSAD]

I don’t care if someone takes the vaccine or not, it’s that persons choice and they shouldn’t be bullied or victimized for not taking it, it’s his choice so respect it please and move on.

[pineapple stu]

Oh I agree. I'm talking some sort of ideal world which doesn't exist.

The reality is it's quite hard to stop people making these silly decisions. And those backing him up are, if not quite "nearly as bad", then still pretty bad because it just normalises those sort of excuses ("My body, my choice") for others.

I'm not entirely sure what the best way of dealing with it is.

Edit - actually, I suppose your vaccination status is linked to your PPS number, as is other health info such as whether you've had a free eye test/dental clean in the past couple of years, etc. That may well be available to your GP, who could use it to ask you the question at a check-up. If even 15-20% of the unvaccinated can be brought around, then that's something.

[dahamsta]

Fundamentally, until such time as COVID vaccinations are mandated by government for public health, people are entitled to not get vaccinated. Equally fundamentally, I am entitled to not employ them, not spend time with them, and deride them mercilessly for their stupidity. If they don't want to be called stupid, they can not do stupid things. That is also their choice.

[tetsujin1979]

What if he contracts the virus again, and infects other members of the squad?

[geysir]

Afair, Jack Byrne did not do covid well, his recovery was prolonged so there are probably big doubts that such a person has developed anything resembling a good natural immunity. From the bits of info available, Callum was knocked back to some degree by his 2nd covid experience but recovered in good time and has reached match fitness levels. That’s a good sign and an indicator of a developed natural immunity. At the very least he has the similar protection from developing symptoms as a fully vaccinated person and likewise as a contagion threat.

[CSAD]

What if he contracts the virus again, and infects other members of the squad?

Other members of the squad can get vaccinated to prevent this.

[tetsujin1979]

Other members of the squad can get vaccinated to prevent this.

Doesn't that run contrary to "personal choice"? It's a responsibility to your team mates, and management, physios, even the bus drivers and the staff of the hotels where you stay

[CSAD]

Doesn't that run contrary to "personal choice"? It's a responsibility to your team mates, and management, physios, even the bus drivers and the staff of the hotels where you stay

That’s nonsense, if YOU don’t want to catch a virus then YOU can take steps to make sure YOU don’t get infected. It’s not Robinsons job to keep other players safe, it’s the individual players job to keep themselves safe. If the individual players don’t want to catch covid then they can get vaccinated and then they don’t have to worry.

[pineapple stu]

Guys - apologies for back-seat modding here, but it's been asked a number of times on thread if can we take this to the covid thread in Current Affairs (https://foot.ie/threads/270563-Anti-vaxxers) where there's plenty of people ready to prove nonsense talk like that wrong.

Please and thanks

[livehead1]

That’s nonsense, if YOU don’t want to catch a virus then YOU can take steps to make sure YOU don’t get infected. It’s not Robinsons job to keep other players safe, it’s the individual players job to keep themselves safe. If the individual players don’t want to catch covid then they can get vaccinated and then they don’t have to worry.

Isn't society supposed to mean that we help each stay healthy?

society
[səˈsʌɪɪti]
NOUN
the aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community.

[CSAD]

Isn't society supposed to mean that we help each stay healthy?

society
[səˈsʌɪɪti]
NOUN
the aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community.

And by that it means do go out hurt, steal or kill someone. Robinson isn’t doing any of that so I don’t see what the problem is.

[pineapple stu]

The majority of people in hospital with covid right now are unvaccinated. These idiots are taking up hospital beds unnecessarily, and delaying medical treatment to other people. Do you think that's not a problem?

Unvaccinated people allow the virus to continue spreading and mutating, possibly developing into a strain that the vaccine doesn't cover you against. Do you think that's not a problem?

Robinson deserves every bit of scorn he's getting. As do the posters who are backing him.

[CSAD]

The majority of people in hospital with covid right now are unvaccinated. These idiots are taking up hospital beds unnecessarily, and delaying medical treatment to other people. Do you think that's not a problem?

Unvaccinated people allow the virus to continue spreading and mutating, possibly developing into a strain that the vaccine doesn't cover you against. Do you think that's not a problem?

Robinson deserves every bit of scorn he's getting. As do the posters who are backing him.

How many are in hospital beds exactly? More hospital beds can be set up if required.


That’s not going to happen, that’s just a conspiracy theory, if those at risk just take the shot all will be fine.

No he doesn’t, and I don’t think it’s anyone else’s business weather he takes it or not, if you are worried about him not being vaccinated then get yourself vaccinated today to solve the problem.

[Olé Olé]

The majority of people in hospital with covid right now are unvaccinated. These idiots are taking up hospital beds unnecessarily, and delaying medical treatment to other people. Do you think that's not a problem?

Unvaccinated people allow the virus to continue spreading and mutating, possibly developing into a strain that the vaccine doesn't cover you against. Do you think that's not a problem?

Robinson deserves every bit of scorn he's getting. As do the posters who are backing him.

Because he has to be scorned or backed- nothing else would make sense?

[tetsujin1979]

How many are in hospital beds exactly? More hospital beds can be set up if required.


That’s not going to happen, that’s just a conspiracy theory, if those at risk just take the shot all will be fine.

No he doesn’t, and I don’t think it’s anyone else’s business weather he takes it or not, if you are worried about him not being vaccinated then get yourself vaccinated today to solve the problem.

The HSE release that information every day - https://covid-19.geohive.ie/pages/hospitals-icu--testing
There's 354 currently being treated for COVID in hospitals in Ireland, 69 of these are in ICU. Setting up a hospital bed isn't as simple as "add a new bed", it's also extra time monitoring the bed for the (already exhausted) hospital staff, and less time to monitor the other patients.

[DCWA]

Apologies, will delete above if preferred.

Moving on, hopefully Cal can put in a big performance give our chances in these qualifiers a shot in the arm!

I object to this post being moved to current affairs. It is as regards Callum Robinson putting in a performance in upcoming Ireland games. Lazy moderation.

[pineapple stu]

69 ICU beds is out of total capacity of 280 by the way. One quarter of ICU beds are occupied by covid sufferers, the majority of whom are unvaccinated. But hey, not like anyone else needs them.

Also, the suggestion that viruses mutate is "just a conspiracy theory" tells you all you need to know about CSAD's ability to contribute sensibly to the topic.

[CSAD]

The HSE release that information every day - https://covid-19.geohive.ie/pages/hospitals-icu--testing
There's 354 currently being treated for COVID in hospitals in Ireland, 69 of these are in ICU. Setting up a hospital bed isn't as simple as "add a new bed", it's also extra time monitoring the bed for the (already exhausted) hospital staff, and less time to monitor the other patients.

Well im sure the government & HSE can find a way of accommodating those who need beds.


69 ICU beds is out of total capacity of 280 by the way. One quarter of ICU beds are occupied by covid sufferers, the majority of whom are unvaccinated. But hey, not like anyone else needs them.

Also, the suggestion that viruses mutate is "just a conspiracy theory" tells you all you need to know about CSAD's ability to contribute sensibly to the topic.

That sounds like the HSE/Governments problem/fault. They should have prepared better for the situation, we are ofcourse in a super deadly pandemic so surely they should have spent time preparing extra beds like other countries did.

The virus mutation excuse is the equivalent of the dog ate my homework excuse, just more moving the goalposts.

[pineapple stu]

The virus mutation is not the equivalent of the dog ate my homework. It's very real. It's why have variants of concern, it's why we've gone through the South African variant, the UK variant, the Brazilian variant, and now the Indian (Delta) variant. Which, in a not coincidence at all, arose in some of the countries with the worst response to covid.

Virus mutation is quite literally evolution in action. It is not possible to deny evolution by claiming that your dog ate your homework.

The HSE cannot have beds on standby for the chance of a pandemic and the chance that idiots will refuse a vaccine for said pandemic.

[sbgawa]

Saying i am not taking the vaccine is as close as you will ever get to standing in the middle of the road with a sign saying "i am a Gob****e".
Conspiracy theory idiots , the moon landing was faked , Elvis is still alive, Vaccines don't mutate (even though all credible medical scientists would say they do).
If it wasn't for the Hippocratic oath the docs would be justified in turning unvaccinated people away from Hospital (unless they had a credible medical reason for not taking the vaccine.....credible to the Docs not themselves). It would fulfil Darwins evolution theory by removing the lower iq elements form the human gene pool.

[CSAD]

The virus mutation is not the equivalent of the dog ate my homework. It's very real. It's why have variants of concern, it's why we've gone through the South African variant, the UK variant, the Brazilian variant, and now the Indian (Delta) variant. Which, in a not coincidence at all, arose in some of the countries with the worst response to covid.

Virus mutation is quite literally evolution in action. It is not possible to deny evolution by claiming that your dog ate your homework.

The HSE cannot have beds on standby for the chance of a pandemic and the chance that idiots will refuse a vaccine for said pandemic.

“It's why have variants of concern, it's why we've gone through the South African variant, the UK variant, the Brazilian variant, and now the Indian (Delta) variant.“

Oh give us a break, it’s the same ****ing virus, giving it a new name doesn’t change jack****.
Can you explain why the excess death rate is no different to a normal year then in Ireland and the vast majority of European countries?

If that’s the case the vaccine is pointless anyway so therefore we shouldn’t be forcing or coercing people to take it anyway.


Saying i am not taking the vaccine is as close as you will ever get to standing in the middle of the road with a sign saying "i am a Gob****e".
Conspiracy theory idiots , the moon landing was faked , Elvis is still alive, Vaccines don't mutate (even though all credible medical scientists would say they do).
If it wasn't for the Hippocratic oath the docs would be justified in turning unvaccinated people away from Hospital (unless they had a credible medical reason for not taking the vaccine.....credible to the Docs not themselves). It would fulfil Darwins evolution theory by removing the lower iq elements form the human gene pool.

It’s fine if you think like that, thankfully that’s not reality. If you think it’s okay to discriminate against people like this then I would want nothing to do with you anyway as you c learnt have no respect for others.

What are you even on about? Maybe the conspiracy theorists have a point, they seem to have gotten more right than the “facts” have.

Well if you are okay with turning away unvaccinated people from hospital that’s almost like saying it’s okay to gas the Jews or it’s okay what happened during the apartheid in South Africa and if that’s the case I haven’t anything to say to you as you clearly have no respect for other people.

[tetsujin1979]

“It's why have variants of concern, it's why we've gone through the South African variant, the UK variant, the Brazilian variant, and now the Indian (Delta) variant.“

Oh give us a break, it’s the same ****ing virus, giving it a new name doesn’t change jack****.
It changes quite a bit, that's why it called a "variant". The delta variant is shown to be much more contagious than the original virus


Can you explain why the excess death rate is no different to a normal year then in Ireland and the vast majority of European countries?
The death rate in Ireland was much higher last year, and the beginning of this year, compared to the average for the previous five years - https://www.thejournal.ie/factfind-ireland-excess-deaths-covid-19-5376262-Mar2021/


If that’s the case the vaccine is pointless anyway so therefore we shouldn’t be forcing or coercing people to take it anyway.
The vaccine is tested against the variants, and has (so far) proven to be effective against them. The more people that refuse to it, and open themselves up to infection, the more chance there is that a variant will emerge that's resistant to the vaccine, and we'll be back where we started


Well if you are okay with turning away unvaccinated people from hospital that’s almost like saying it’s okay to gas the Jews or it’s okay what happened during the apartheid in South Africa and if that’s the case I haven’t anything to say to you as you clearly have no respect for other people.

It, and I really can't stress this enough, is nothing of the sort.

[sbgawa]

Well if you are okay with turning away unvaccinated people from hospital that’s almost like saying it’s okay to gas the Jews or it’s okay what happened during the apartheid in South Africa and if that’s the case I haven’t anything to say to you as you clearly have no respect for other people.

I'll leave it there so :confused:

[pineapple stu]

Jesus tap dancing Christ.

I mean...

One thing I would add to tets' post is that we went through extraordinary measures to reduce the excess death toll. Had we not done so, the death rate would have been through the roof. In March of last year, some Italian newspapers went from one page of obituaries to ten pages (https://www.indiatoday.in/trending-news/story/italian-newspaper-prints-10-pages-of-obituaries-as-coronavirus-death-toll-soars-1656055-2020-03-16). But yeah, it's all makey-uppey.

I note CSAD hasn't actually given anything to back his view up. The posts are the equivalent of someone putting their fingers in their ears saying "Nah nah nah you're wrong can't hear you!"

[CSAD]

It changes quite a bit, that's why it called a "variant". The delta variant is shown to be much more contagious than the original virus


The death rate in Ireland was much higher last year, and the beginning of this year, compared to the average for the previous five years - https://www.thejournal.ie/factfind-ireland-excess-deaths-covid-19-5376262-Mar2021/


The vaccine is tested against the variants, and has (so far) proven to be effective against them. The more people that refuse to it, and open themselves up to infection, the more chance there is that a variant will emerge that's resistant to the vaccine, and we'll be back where we started



It, and I really can't stress this enough, is nothing of the sort.

Has the bull**** variant come yet?

Nope looking at the data presented by the tag you used, one month of April had a high death rate (and even then wasn’t worse than Janurary in 2017-2018 & 2016-2017). The rest of 2020 is no different to any other month in the previous years.


Great so it’s the same virus essentially, yeah and if they open themselves up to infection surely that this persons problem and not the government surely? A variant resistent to the vaccine, come off it. This sounds like manipulation to me, how else to convince someone to take a vaccine against their will.

Yes it is of the sort, you are saying one patient should be denied health care because of them not taking a shot, this is was the Nuremberg code was brought in to prevent and yet here we are in 2021 in same position as we were when the Nazis were around.


Jesus tap dancing Christ.

I mean...

One thing I would add to tets' post is that we went through extraordinary measures to reduce the excess death toll. Had we not done so, the death rate would have been through the roof. In March of last year, some Italian newspapers went from one page of obituaries to ten pages (https://www.indiatoday.in/trending-news/story/italian-newspaper-prints-10-pages-of-obituaries-as-coronavirus-death-toll-soars-1656055-2020-03-16). But yeah, it's all makey-uppey.

I note CSAD hasn't actually given anything to back his view up. The posts are the equivalent of someone putting their fingers in their ears saying "Nah nah nah you're wrong can't hear you!"

Ah right so if that’s the case why have countries that didn’t do the same measures have also a low excess death rate? Sweden for instance, we keep being told about how wrong they got it yet Sweden’s death rate is no different to the last 5 years and never found themselves struggling for hospital beds (never had less than 20% of hospital beds available).

And where’s the proof that the death rate would have been through the roof? I’ve just shown you a country that didn’t do the measures and had no different a death rate to previous years.

I’ve given you information, if you want to inform yourself why don’t you go and look at this information for yourself? If I’m wrong you’ll find a source saying I’m wrong.

[tetsujin1979]

The Auschwitz Museum would prefer if vaccine mandates were not compared to the holocaust.
I defer to their judgement
1421682062050926592

[Eminence Grise]

Has the bull**** variant come yet?

Yes.

You've contracted it. And there's no cure.

Sweet Jesus, only the most loathsome of creatures would bring gassing Jews in the Holocaust into an argument on vaccination.

[pineapple stu]

Has the bull**** variant come yet?

Nope looking at the data presented by the tag you used, one month of April had a high death rate (and even then wasn’t worse than Janurary in 2017-2018 & 2016-2017). The rest of 2020 is no different to any other month in the previous years.
You've already been told that the death rate for 2020 reduced in line with normal levels because we more or less locked ourselves in our houses for the year.

Too much of your post is just baseless ranting to be honest. I don't think you've provided a single source for anything, for example.

In the meantime, variants absolutely exist - here is an article on the BBC website discussing them (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55659820).

Vaccines can offer different levels of protection against different variants. Delta is the most discussed one here, as it was the variant that arrived after vaccine trials had begun, and here's the BBC saying (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58257863) "But neither [AstraZeneza or Pfizer] is as effective [against Delta] as it is against the Alpha variant, responsible for most UK infections last winter." In general terms, we can see how diseases evolve by looking at drug-resistant strains of various diseases, which are on the increase (see Bill Bryson's The Body for an excellent discussion on that)

Sweden did have excess mortality last year - 7.7% per Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-europe-mortality-idUSKBN2BG1R9), highest of all the Nordic countries. Probably their culture played a part in avoiding the worst of what hit Italy/Spain - the Mediterranean cultures will see a lot of kissing when you meet (which is great for spreading the virus) whereas the Nordics are more restrained. In that regard, it's not a good sign that Sweden's excess death toll was significantly higher than the other Nordic countries. It also has the lowest rate of smoking in Europe (https://www.statista.com/statistics/433390/individuals-who-currently-smoke-cigarettes-in-european-countries/) and when there's a disease that hits your lungs, being a smoker is not a good thing. There's probably other factors too; I'm not an expert. But still, there's way more information in my argument than there is in yours.

I'm also not sure why you think you can ignore the Italian experience just by shouting "But Sweden!" and offering no sort of insight or information or anything. Even the Irish experience over Christmas - when ICU filled up within a couple of weeks of people enjoying Christmas - should indicate that this is a real thing, and that being vaccinated against it and staying out of hospital is a positive thing for society which trumps your own personal bull**** of "My body my choice"

[dynamo kerry]

You've already been told that the death rate for 2020 reduced in line with normal levels because we more or less locked ourselves in our houses for the year.

Too much of your post is just baseless ranting to be honest. I don't think you've provided a single source for anything, for example.

In the meantime, variants absolutely exist - here is an article on the BBC website discussing them (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55659820).

Vaccines can offer different levels of protection against different variants. Delta is the most discussed one here, as it was the variant that arrived after vaccine trials had begun, and here's the BBC saying (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58257863) "But neither [AstraZeneza or Pfizer] is as effective [against Delta] as it is against the Alpha variant, responsible for most UK infections last winter." In general terms, we can see how diseases evolve by looking at drug-resistant strains of various diseases, which are on the increase (see Bill Bryson's The Body for an excellent discussion on that)

Sweden did have excess mortality last year - 7.7% per Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-europe-mortality-idUSKBN2BG1R9), highest of all the Nordic countries. Probably their culture played a part in avoiding the worst of what hit Italy/Spain - the Mediterranean cultures will see a lot of kissing when you meet (which is great for spreading the virus) whereas the Nordics are more restrained. In that regard, it's not a good sign that Sweden's excess death toll was significantly higher than the other Nordic countries. It also has the lowest rate of smoking in Europe (https://www.statista.com/statistics/433390/individuals-who-currently-smoke-cigarettes-in-european-countries/) and when there's a disease that hits your lungs, being a smoker is not a good thing. There's probably other factors too; I'm not an expert. But still, there's way more information in my argument than there is in yours.

I'm also not sure why you think you can ignore the Italian experience just by shouting "But Sweden!" and offering no sort of insight or information or anything. Even the Irish experience over Christmas - when ICU filled up within a couple of weeks of people enjoying Christmas - should indicate that this is a real thing, and that being vaccinated against it and staying out of hospital is a positive thing for society which trumps your own personal bull**** of "My body my choice"

This is pretty solid reasoning.

I think the whole "my body my choice" is a pretty juvenile way of looking at things and kind of a "haha, look how smart I am using pro-choice language to stick it up to people who make me feel inferior for not understanding the implications of this".. maybe.. I might be wrong..

. It reminds me of a young lad I once encountered on the tarmac at edinburgh airport who, when I told him it wasnt a good idea to light a cigarette under an airplane wing, replied, " who the **** are you? The airplane police?".... upon which I said, "knock yourself out, but I'll be standing over there... "
(Incidentally, my Scottish buddy who is much bigger than me, told him to cop the **** on, " are you a ****ing idiot" ..at which point he complied rapid...)

[tetsujin1979]

Sweden's excess death is at 8,005 according to ourworldindata (https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=earliest..2021-09-26&facet=none&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations_per_hundred&Metric=Excess+mortality+%28count%29&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=false&Align+outbreaks=false&country=AUT~BEL~BGR~CYP~CZE~DEU~DNK~ESP~EST~FIN~FR A~GRC~HRV~HUN~IRL~ITA~LTU~LUX~LVA~MLT~NLD~POL~PRT~ ROU~SVK~SVN~SWE~EuropeanUnion)
According to the same graph, Ireland's is at 929, but there's been no updates to it for Ireland since June

The King of Sweden admitted their approach failed: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/17/king-sweden-failed-covid-strategy-rare-royal-rebuke-lockdown-hospitals-cases
The Swedish Prime Minister admitted the approach failed: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-23/swedish-prime-minister-admits-strategy-to-stop-virus-fell-short

[Eminence Grise]

Setting up a hospital bed isn't as simple as "add a new bed", it's also extra time monitoring the bed for the (already exhausted) hospital staff, and less time to monitor the other patients.

Absolutely. ICU operates on a 1:1 nursing-patient ratio. One bed requires 56 shifts per month; one nurse works max 14 shifts (many can't take that level and drop to 12 or even lower), so you need at least four nurses for that bed and closer to 4.5 WTE minimum when you factor in holidays and sick leave cover. Assuming they're on the top of the staff nurse pay scale with their LSI (15 years service), weekend and night shift pay they'll be on about €55k pa. And a nurse can't just toddle up to work in ICU off another ward or the hospital bank - ICU nurses are airways specialists and have to complete a postgrad qualification. Covid also requires proning patients and that takes a team of 4-5 to rotate the patient twice a day.

So one ICU bed costs about €20,000 in nursing salaries alone every month. Then you can add consultant, reg, cleaners, equipment (the ventilator!) and meds.

[CSAD]

https://www.the42.ie/shay-given-callum-robinson-ireland-vaccine-5568630-Oct2021/

Thankfully a former player with common sense at least.


Sweden's excess death is at 8,005 according to ourworldindata (https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=earliest..2021-09-26&facet=none&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations_per_hundred&Metric=Excess+mortality+%28count%29&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=false&Align+outbreaks=false&country=AUT~BEL~BGR~CYP~CZE~DEU~DNK~ESP~EST~FIN~FR A~GRC~HRV~HUN~IRL~ITA~LTU~LUX~LVA~MLT~NLD~POL~PRT~ ROU~SVK~SVN~SWE~EuropeanUnion)
According to the same graph, Ireland's is at 929, but there's been no updates to it for Ireland since June

The King of Sweden admitted their approach failed: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/17/king-sweden-failed-covid-strategy-rare-royal-rebuke-lockdown-hospitals-cases
The Swedish Prime Minister admitted the approach failed: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-23/swedish-prime-minister-admits-strategy-to-stop-virus-fell-short

Nah nah nah, you aren’t getting away with that. What was Sweden death rate in 2020 and compare it to the previous 5 years, I already did that from doing my research and found the excess death rate is no different to the previous 5 years.


You've already been told that the death rate for 2020 reduced in line with normal levels because we more or less locked ourselves in our houses for the year.

Too much of your post is just baseless ranting to be honest. I don't think you've provided a single source for anything, for example.

In the meantime, variants absolutely exist - here is an article on the BBC website discussing them (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55659820).

Vaccines can offer different levels of protection against different variants. Delta is the most discussed one here, as it was the variant that arrived after vaccine trials had begun, and here's the BBC saying (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58257863) "But neither [AstraZeneza or Pfizer] is as effective [against Delta] as it is against the Alpha variant, responsible for most UK infections last winter." In general terms, we can see how diseases evolve by looking at drug-resistant strains of various diseases, which are on the increase (see Bill Bryson's The Body for an excellent discussion on that)

Sweden did have excess mortality last year - 7.7% per Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-europe-mortality-idUSKBN2BG1R9), highest of all the Nordic countries. Probably their culture played a part in avoiding the worst of what hit Italy/Spain - the Mediterranean cultures will see a lot of kissing when you meet (which is great for spreading the virus) whereas the Nordics are more restrained. In that regard, it's not a good sign that Sweden's excess death toll was significantly higher than the other Nordic countries. It also has the lowest rate of smoking in Europe (https://www.statista.com/statistics/433390/individuals-who-currently-smoke-cigarettes-in-european-countries/) and when there's a disease that hits your lungs, being a smoker is not a good thing. There's probably other factors too; I'm not an expert. But still, there's way more information in my argument than there is in yours.

I'm also not sure why you think you can ignore the Italian experience just by shouting "But Sweden!" and offering no sort of insight or information or anything. Even the Irish experience over Christmas - when ICU filled up within a couple of weeks of people enjoying Christmas - should indicate that this is a real thing, and that being vaccinated against it and staying out of hospital is a positive thing for society which trumps your own personal bull**** of "My body my choice"

Yeah they can tell us **** all they want, it doesn’t make it true. Countries like Sweden that didn’t lock people up also had an excess death rate in line with normal years which disproves that argument.

Because I’ve told you information, now it’s up to you to get off your ass and research it, I found this information from digging for it so believe you can too if you really want to. Just like you buy the crap that lockdowns work just because someone from our clown shop of a government said it did, the last thing someone from government wants to do is tell us the lockdown was for nothing so they ofcourse will say they worked…

Yeah yeah yeah whatever you say, like talking to a wall trying to discuss that nonsense with you.

Ah see this is what has been done, try compare the Nordics and make it look as if Sweden got it wrong, that crap isn’t going to work with me, what was Sweden’s death rate in 2020 compared to 2015-2019? That’s the only comparable statistic.

The ICU filled up with people who got hit by a car who the had a positive covid test you mean? That’s why excess death rate is the only metric I will consider valid and only when it’s compared to the previous 5 years. Also you forget ICU’s are always filled up thanks to our shambles of a health care system, the only difference is now it’s making the news, the news didn’t seem to give to ****s about the ICU shortage 2 years ago when they are overflowing then also.

[pineapple stu]

Have you a link to support anything you're saying? Anything at all like?

Because tets gave a link which showed excess mortality. And I gave a link to support excess mortality. Why should we believe you (with no supporting whatsoever) over Reuters, the King of Sweden, and the ****ing Prime Minister of Sweden?

You haven't given one iota of information. I'm not going to go googling your random theories on the off chance I stumble on the same conspiracy theory page as you've been on. You show me where your info is coming from and then we can assess it; that's how reasoned debate works.

People have been hit by cars since they were invented. The reason to look at excess mortality is to explicitly remove stuff like people dying with covid (but not of covid). If there is excess mortality - and tets has shown that there is - then that's a fact independent of car crash victims happening to have covid. In simple terms - if the number of people dying in car crashes in 2019 was the same as in 2020, and if there was significant excess mortality in 2020 (which there was in April in particular), then that's got nothing to do with car crashes. That's the effect of a pandemic.

Also, ICU was full of people with one specific virus. For example, in April last year there was a peak of 160 covid patients in ICU (https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/libraryResearch/2020/2020-05-22_l-rs-infographic-covid-19-in-ireland-at-reopening-phase-1-a-statistical-snapshot_en.pdf), and in January this year it hit 221 (https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0326/1206464-virus-vaccine-rollout/). That's utterly unique and makes your attempt to dismiss this as the result of a poor healthcare system irrelevant. Yes, our healthcare system is poor, but you should still get vaccinated to avoid clogging up ICU beds for people who need them through no fault of their own.

[CSAD]

The Auschwitz Museum would prefer if vaccine mandates were not compared to the holocaust.
I defer to their judgement
1421682062050926592

It sort of is though weather he likes it or not.


Yes.

You've contracted it. And there's no cure.

Sweet Jesus, only the most loathsome of creatures would bring gassing Jews in the Holocaust into an argument on vaccination.

It just goes to show we learn nothing from history ever.