Qatar v Republic of Ireland - Tuesday, 30th March 2021 - Friendly

[pineapple stu]

To be honest, to be choosing among three League One keepers is a Hobson's Choice to me.

I think Kelleher should play at least one of the mooted friendlies against Andorra/Hungary, and probably Randolph the other. Then September is a while away yet and it's too early now to say who I'd want as third choice keeper.

[elatedscum]

Actually, just to put that academy team in perspective, Liverpool used 13 players against us -

Lawrence Vigoloux - 0 senior Liverpool games, now at Leyton Orient (L2)
Connor Randall - 8 games, now at Ross County (SPL)
Matthew Virtue-Thick - 0 games, now at Blackpool (L1)
Rafa Paez - 0 games, now at Istra (Croatian top flight)
Tom Brewitt - 0 games, now at Tacoma Defiance (US second tier)
Sam Hart - 0 games, now at Southend (L2)
Sergi Canos - 1 game, now at Brentford (Champ)
Will Marsh - 0 games, now at Northwich (North West Counties League)
Madger Gomez - 0 games, now at Doncaster (L1)
Jack Dunn - 0 games, now at Warrington Town (Northern Premier League)
Jerome Sinclair - 5 games, now at CSKA Sofia (Bulgaria)
Cameron Brannagan - 9 games, now at Oxford (L1)
Samed Yesil - 2 games, now at Homburg in the German fourth tier

That's just one academy team picked at random - and it's a convenient time in the past that you can properly evaluate the players' subsequent careers - but you'll find a fair few like that I'd say.

That’s a bit misleading because generally speaking the more talented kids will join the first team’s pre-season tour. So you probably would have had players like Trent Alexander Arnold, Conor Coady, Brad Smith, Jordan Rossiter, Jordan Ibe, Joao Teixeira, Thiago Ilori, Sheyi Ojo, Ovie Ejaria, Ryan Kent, Harry Wilson with the senior team. All the more talented group. At that stage, Branagan was the only lad who had a chance at Liverpool from the 13. The likes of Yesil and Virtue had injuries derail their careers. Sinclair had an agent who ruined his development. The likes of Hart and Marsh were barely good enough to reach that level. So you’re almost comparing apples with oranges.

Kelleher has probably been with the senior pre-season group since Klopp’s first pre-season in 2016 or the year after in 2017.

[seanfhear]

At least we have some genuine potential between the sticks. We would be very unlucky not to get a good goalkeeper ( or even two) from this potential. If only we had the same potential in every other position.

[pineapple stu]

That’s a bit misleading because generally speaking the more talented kids will join the first team’s pre-season tour. So you probably would have had players like Trent Alexander Arnold, Conor Coady, Brad Smith, Jordan Rossiter, Jordan Ibe, Joao Teixeira, Thiago Ilori, Sheyi Ojo, Ovie Ejaria, Ryan Kent, Harry Wilson with the senior team. All the more talented group. At that stage, Branagan was the only lad who had a chance at Liverpool from the 13. The likes of Yesil and Virtue had injuries derail their careers. Sinclair had an agent who ruined his development. The likes of Hart and Marsh were barely good enough to reach that level. So you’re almost comparing apples with oranges.
Fair point. I picked it as an example and to help a bit of talk on the topic.

But pick the names you have there - TAA is obviously world class, and it'd be great if Kelleher/Bazunu went on a similar career path.

Coady is a decent Premier League defender.

Brad Smith is in the MLS. Rossiter is at Fleetwood. Ibe is at Derby. Teixeira is a squad player at Feyernoord. Ilori is at newly-promoted Lorient. Ojo is at Cardiff. Ejaria is at Reading. Kent is at Rangers. Wilson is Cardiff.

So of the players you've named, two are genuinely good, and the rest are in and around Championship level at best. And there's no reason Kelleher/Bazunu couldn't pick up an injury or get a bad agent either.

So I think that helps back up my argument against lofty9's suggestion we could be looking at two of the top keepers in Europe in the next few years. We need to be realistic about the future of academy prospects, and how the odds are stacked against even Liverpool/Man City academy players reaching the very top.

[John83]

Who actually thinks and has been saying Qatar are decent, go back over their results, bar the Asian cup and there's some very poor results. They are a poor side, but so are we are the minute.
Statistically, they're about as good as Scotland, Greece, or Bosnia. We're just behind that now but sinking quickly. They're a side we'd have been comfortable favourites against ten years ago, but not now. I think people have a really fixed idea of how good we are. There's no one of the calibre of Given, Dunne, O'Shea, Duff, or Keane in the current squad, barring Coleman. A few are close, but all of them are defenders, and some of those are off form (Duffy, Doherty).

[seanfhear]

Statistically, they're about as good as Scotland, Greece, or Bosnia. We're just behind that now but sinking quickly. They're a side we'd have been comfortable favourites against ten years ago, but not now. I think people have a really fixed idea of how good we are. There's no one of the calibre of Given, Dunne, O'Shea, Duff, or Keane in the current squad, barring Coleman. A few are close, but all of them are defenders, and some of those are off form (Duffy, Doherty).
If Doherty doesn’t find form soon he will have to try playing Centre-back of get a move away from Tottenham. I wonder will Mourinho and his Portuguese agent last much longer at Spurs !

[paul_oshea]

Statistically, they're about as good as Scotland, Greece, or Bosnia. We're just behind that now but sinking quickly. They're a side we'd have been comfortable favourites against ten years ago, but not now. I think people have a really fixed idea of how good we are. There's no one of the calibre of Given, Dunne, O'Shea, Duff, or Keane in the current squad, barring Coleman. A few are close, but all of them are defenders, and some of those are off form (Duffy, Doherty).

I do think peoples opinions are levelling out, around where we are at. I also think the players we have now just dont have the ability to play the way Kenny wants. He's banking on the younger lads from his time at the 21s, moulding them into the style and system he wants to play. But boys and mens football is very different, he has no guarantee any of them will amount to consistent senior internationals. And I think its pretty clear after 11 games, that the players haven't been able to adapt to what he wants.

It will be interesting to see how the 9 day training camp goes, if he serves some ultimatums, and who doesn't show up.

[ontheotherhand]

Because you specifically asked me to compare Bazunu and Travers. I said before the matches that they were both League One level keepers and I didn't see much between them. But if you ask the question, then I have to point out that there's not a lot I can go on by way of direct comparison - hence the point that Bazunu (who has made his own errors out of nothing, by and large) could well have played worse than Travers in the game we were under most pressure in.


Actually, that's no true on Travers - he started backtracking as soon as it became a risk too, but the issue was he'd strayed far too far off his line and couldn't get back in time. I don't agree the Lux lob was more audacious though. Mitrovic's lob was far better executed - the flight of the ball was lower, giving less time to react, and it was into the far corner, meaning the keeper had more distance to make up. But certainly Bazunu dealt better with that threat, sure.


They're not forgotten. Stutts put one of them down to luck actually. But keepers are there to make saves. Travers' save v Serbia is also forgotten. It's when they make mistakes that you can really judge them.


This argument - or variants on it - has come up a few times now and I've not seen anything to back up the idea that Bazunu is a great goalkeeper playing with ten incompetents. For example (and happy to be corrected on any of these stats of course), in 28 league games, he's been named on the League One Team of the Week once. He's won the club's PotM award once, and that was in a month where their only goal was at 4-0 down, so effectively half the team had no chance straight off. Rochdals have one Young Player of the Month award winner this season, but it wasn't Bazunu. The thread on him here (https://foot.ie/threads/258932-Gavin-Bazunu-(G-Manchester-City-(loan-Rochdale)-b-2002)/page2) notes nothing much else other than two poor games, one against Swindon and one against Fleetwood; his error against Swindon in passing straight to an opposition player was replicated against Qatar, so I don't think you can simply say "He'll study it and learn from it and not make the same mistake again"

So I'm happy to say that he's League One standard. And again, that's good for a developing 19-year-old, but there's no point making him out to be better than he is at the moment. And it's not to have a dig at the guy either, but just to bring some balance into this discussion.


Nonsense. He bailed us out when we had three keepers injured. He's not remotely ready to be first choice. Honestly, take off the green and white blinkers and you'll see that. For me, the Qatar game in particular was Kevin Kilbane in Iceland stuff.

The suggestion to make him number 1 was tongue in cheek stu. I think we agree that he made mistakes and needs to develop. We disagree on some of the errors being worthy of howler status and on the relative use of judging him on being ready to be #1 when he is 19 and auditioning to be #3 or maybe #2. I took way more positives from his performances over the two games while I agree that he was ropey against Qatar. He still had bright patches in that game though and if he was playing a different position we might not even be commenting.

I wouldn't put a ton of stock in Rochdale's nominees for young player of the month either. He's a loan signing. They are hardly going to get very excited about him unless there's scope to sign him. I've scanned their forum since he got there and it's a mixed bag. But again, he's 19 and frequently exposed playing behind the worst team in that league. Bound to be under focus.

[pineapple stu]

Well I can agree with most of that.

The problem with keeper - and I know from experience - is your mistakes are way more noticeable. And for a good reason too.

[ontheotherhand]

Well I can agree with most of that.

The problem with keeper - and I know from experience - is your mistakes are way more noticeable. And for a good reason too.

Absolutely. I'm preparing a full doc of all your mistakes since you started posting about my Gavin. Leave him alone!

Surprised I've posted so much about Ireland games to be honest. I used to love following the national team but it went sour for me for various reasons and I just stuck to LoI. At least Kenny and this batch of young players makes things interesting again. For me at least.

[Bielsa´s irish]

I don’t see all that much between Travers and Bazunu = = Both of them made mistakes, one was punished, one got away with it possibly through luck. It depends on how much any of our young goalkeepers improves and who if any gets playing regularly at the highest level.

Perhaps a bookie can test the faith some of our posters have ?

Totally agreed! I actually think Travers is better as a keeper, while Bazunu may have better footie skills, but the almost penalty rush nonense. Travers will come better and stronger

[Bielsa´s irish]

Well I can agree with most of that.

The problem with keeper - and I know from experience - is your mistakes are way more noticeable. And for a good reason too.

Yeah. I would have tried another keepers I think he overexposed them. would have tried Doyle, McDermott and Danny Rogers and Lawlor (who was a Man city keeper ) tbh, these 3 are the future with Kelleher we are covered there

[Exgrad]

I make it 9 of the starting 11 from this match who have not started for their club since (maybe i have missed one?). 6 of the 11 Championship or lower, so really should be. 3 of the 6 subs not getting starts either, one (Parrot) bombed out of squad down to u23s. They probably over performed getting a draw against Qatar.

[pineapple stu]

Not sure that's entirely accurate -

Bazunu started the first game after Qatar (but hasn't played since).
Coleman started Everton's last two having recovered from injury.
Duffy hasn't started since
Christie is a regular starter
O'Shea has started WBA's last two games
McClean hasn't started since (O'Neill was annoyed with him playing this game as I recall because of a niggle he had)
Horgan hasn't started since
Brady of course was injured in this game and hasn't started since
Hendrick hasn't started since
Molumby hasn't started since
Long hasn't started since

So "only" 7 of the 11 haven't started a game since. Still, that's a seriously worrying stat.

[Exgrad]

Yeah missed Christie and that Bazunu started after the Qatar game before being dropped. In general our squad is in a v poor place at the moment, hopefully next season they will fare better, or it is v difficult to see how Kenny improves results.

Just having a quick glance at how the Luxemburg squad has gone since our game with them. I can see players who have started in the Portuguese, German, Swiss and Ukrainian top divisions. They have players who have scored since in the Swiss and German top division. We have lads who are getting bombed out of championship and league 1 teams. Yet a lot of people expected us to turn up and beat them comfortably. Ukrainian top division may not be as competitive as ,say, the championship, but i would hazard a guess it would prepare a player for international football much better.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Yeah missed Christie and that Bazunu started after the Qatar game before being dropped. In general our squad is in a v poor place at the moment, hopefully next season they will fare better, or it is v difficult to see how Kenny improves results.

Just having a quick glance at how the Luxemburg squad has gone since our game with them. I can see players who have started in the Portuguese, German, Swiss and Ukrainian top divisions. They have players who have scored since in the Swiss and German top division. We have lads who are getting bombed out of championship and league 1 teams. Yet a lot of people expected us to turn up and beat them comfortably. Ukrainian top division may not be as competitive as ,say, the championship, but i would hazard a guess it would prepare a player for international football much better.

Union SG
New York City
FC Lviv
Young Boys
Waasland-Beveren, on loan from Norwich City
Dynamo Kyiv
Nacional
Vorskla Poltava
Mainz
Standard Liège
Casa Pia A.C

v

Rochdale, on loan from Man City
Everton
West Brom
Newcastle
Spurs
Sheff Utd
Anderlecht
Derby
Preston
West Brom
Luton

Were you saying that Cyprus had players scoring for Olympiacos and the like when they beat us 5-2?

[Kingdom]

Were you saying that Cyprus had players scoring for Olympiacos and the like when they beat us 5-2?
Michael Constantinou, and Okkas were both in Olympiakos CL squad at that time. Constantinou in particular was on a serious run of form those couple of years

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Michael Constantinou, and Okkas were both in Olympiakos CL squad at that time. Constantinou in particular was on a serious run of form those couple of years

Yes and I don't remember that being used as an excuse for Staunton. If it was it would have been laughed at. Talking up Luxembourg shows how bad things have become under Kenny.

[pineapple stu]

Talking up Luxembourg I think puts in perspective how bad the squad has become in general.

Maybe Kenny could be getting more out of them, but it's a ****-poor squad in fairness. No Dunne/Given/Duff/Keane that Staunton had.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Talking up Luxembourg I think puts in perspective how bad the squad has become in general.

Maybe Kenny could be getting more out of them, but it's a ****-poor squad in fairness. No Dunne/Given/Duff/Keane that Staunton had.

It's virtually the same squad McCarthy had. Clearly not the most talented squad but it wasn't the squad people were blaming when we drew away to Georgia or when we failed to qualify. Why is the current manager getting a free pass with a horrendous record since he took over?

[pineapple stu]

I don't think he is getting a free pass. There's a thread on here as to whether he should be sacked for example.

I know what you're saying about having the same squad aa Mick, but those players are 18 months older now, and it was an old enough squad as it was.

He's having to bring through a lot of players who aren't ready yet. But our problems go way beyond the manager right now, and I don't see a feasible option that'll change things significantly tbh

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

I don't think he is getting a free pass. There's a thread on here as to whether he should be sacked for example.

I know what you're saying about having the same squad aa Mick, but those players are 18 months older now, and it was an old enough squad as it was.

He's having to bring through a lot of players who aren't ready yet. But our problems go way beyond the manager right now, and I don't see a feasible option that'll change things significantly tbh

He's getting a far easier ride than any recent managers, that's for sure. Despite doing a far worse job than any of them. Actually, statistically, he's the worst manager we've ever had. Now, I agree that there are huge issues elsewhere but having an inept senior manager does not help things. We're flying down the World rankings, slipping down the seedings can take a long time to recover from. We have some decent players coming through, potential only at the moment but being introduced to our senior team under a manager who's out of his depth is not going to help with their development. He still has a chance to turn it around but how bad does it have to get before we have to put an end to it? He could be doing serious damage that will have negative effects for a long time.

[Razors left peg]

It's virtually the same squad McCarthy had. Clearly not the most talented squad but it wasn't the squad people were blaming when we drew away to Georgia or when we failed to qualify. Why is the current manager getting a free pass with a horrendous record since he took over?

Maybe someone can put together the list of clubs that the Gibraltar players play for to compare them to the Luxemburg team. Im not sure they even had any full time pros. McCarthy was poxed to beat them so lets not pretend that he was far better with the same squad

As for away to Georgia, do you think Randolph made the decision to time waste on a goal kick 20 minutes into that game?

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Maybe someone can put together the list of clubs that the Gibraltar players play for to compare them to the Luxemburg team. Im not sure they even had any full time pros. McCarthy was poxed to beat them so lets not pretend that he was far better with the same squad

As for away to Georgia, do you think Randolph made the decision to time waste on a goal kick 20 minutes into that game?

I'm not defending McCarthy, he oversaw some awful performances. He was heavily criticised and I believe rightfully so but compare his record with Kenny's and it's undeniable that he did far better with the same squad. He had 10 games in charge, won 5, drew 4 and only lost 1. He came very close to qualifying us for the Euros. Kenny hasn't won a game, got knocked out of the Euro play offs, came 3rd in a weak Nations league group and has us joint bottom with Azerbaijan and out of World Cup qualifying after 2 games.

You seem to think McCarthy did a poor job? If so, how would you describe Kenny's reign so far?

[Razors left peg]

Yep I think McCarthy was terrible. Every game we went out it looked like we had never been coached.

As for Kenny I think the results have be a disaster, I gave him a pass for some of the earlier games because of the Covid stuff and all the ins and outs that were happening in the squad. The Luxemburg result cant be defended at all. What I will say is that we are creating far more chances under Kenny than we were under McCarthy. It actually looks like we are working towards something, if we could get a few players actually convert some of the chances we are creating the results would be far better. Under McCarthy and last few years of O'Neill the only time we ever looked like creating a chance was from a set piece.

That being said, if Kenny doesnt pick up a few wins soon he will have to go, I just dont have any idea who Id replace him with.

[Fixer82]

Yep I think McCarthy was terrible. Every game we went out it looked like we had never been coached.

As for Kenny I think the results have be a disaster, I gave him a pass for some of the earlier games because of the Covid stuff and all the ins and outs that were happening in the squad. The Luxemburg result cant be defended at all. What I will say is that we are creating far more chances under Kenny than we were under McCarthy. It actually looks like we are working towards something, if we could get a few players actually convert some of the chances we are creating the results would be far better. Under McCarthy and last few years of O'Neill the only time we ever looked like creating a chance was from a set piece.

That being said, if Kenny doesnt pick up a few wins soon he will have to go, I just dont have any idea who Id replace him with.

We are playing more football and creating more chances, but we don't have the personnel to fully execute the plan.
I hope I'm wrong

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Yep I think McCarthy was terrible. Every game we went out it looked like we had never been coached.

As for Kenny I think the results have be a disaster, I gave him a pass for some of the earlier games because of the Covid stuff and all the ins and outs that were happening in the squad. The Luxemburg result cant be defended at all. What I will say is that we are creating far more chances under Kenny than we were under McCarthy. It actually looks like we are working towards something, if we could get a few players actually convert some of the chances we are creating the results would be far better. Under McCarthy and last few years of O'Neill the only time we ever looked like creating a chance was from a set piece.

That being said, if Kenny doesnt pick up a few wins soon he will have to go, I just dont have any idea who Id replace him with.

If McCarthy was terrible and Kenny has performed far worse than him.............

I don't see where you're getting that we're creating far more chances under Kenny? We basically scored our only chances v Serbia and still lost. Apart from a set piece goal from Duffy, was it another 7 games until we scored under Kenny? Don't forget, we have mostly played very average teams. We played England in a friendly and it was embarrassing. The way things are going, the only thing it looks like we're working towards is being demoted to League D in the nations league and trying to qualify that way.

It's been an utter shambles thus far. Some of the stuff under McCarthy, O'Neill and Trapatoni was hard to watch but I'd take that any day of the week ahead of the dross that's been served to us for the past year.

[tetsujin1979]

Was it Trapattoni who pointed out that a third of all international goals came from set pieces?
In the eleven games Kenny has been in charge for, we've scored four goals
In the eleven previous games to him taking over, we scored thirteen goals, so while we weren't scoring many, we were putting the goal in the back of the net. McCarthy didn't play good football, and I'm not for one minute arguing he did, but he was pragmatic enough to get a goal by any means necessary. Kenny hasn't shown yet that he can change his team, either the formation or the tactics, when it isn't working. In all but one game where we conceded in his tenure so far, we lost.

[Razors left peg]

Pragmatism was giving us about 30% possession in most games. There was no future in conceding the ball for most of the game, putting 11 behind the ball and hoping to nick a lucky goal. That was where we were with McCarthy and later part of O'Neills tenure. Did we have something like 20% possession away to Wales when we won with the McClean goal? Possession is not everything but it at least gives us some sort of gameplan and a base to start from.

Kenny is trying to chance the entire culture of how we play, the problem is that he's probably trying to do too much too quickly with a brutal bunch of players. He does probably need to be a bit more pragmatic but again I go back to the likes of thr Slovakia game where we were very good and had more than enough chances to win the game comfortably if the players didn't make a balls of it, especially Hourihane at the end of the game. If we had won that game and had qualified there would be a very different opinion of Kenny by a lot of people.

I'm still in the camp of thinking he's right for the job but I absolutely admit he needs to see a bit of luck change and get some wins.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Pragmatism was giving us about 30% possession in most games. There was no future in conceding the ball for most of the game, putting 11 behind the ball and hoping to nick a lucky goal. That was where we were with McCarthy and later part of O'Neills tenure. Did we have something like 20% possession away to Wales when we won with the McClean goal? Possession is not everything but it at least gives us some sort of gameplan and a base to start from.

Kenny is trying to chance the entire culture of how we play, the problem is that he's probably trying to do too much too quickly with a brutal bunch of players. He does probably need to be a bit more pragmatic but again I go back to the likes of thr Slovakia game where we were very good and had more than enough chances to win the game comfortably if the players didn't make a balls of it, especially Hourihane at the end of the game. If we had won that game and had qualified there would be a very different opinion of Kenny by a lot of people.

I'm still in the camp of thinking he's right for the job but I absolutely admit he needs to see a bit of luck change and get some wins.

Under Kenny, we've managed to win the possession duel against some of the average teams we've played against but as was pointed out in the post before yours, we've only scored 4 goals under his tenure. That tells you that the game plan has been ineffective. You can use luck as an excuse only a limited number of times, luck shouldn't come into it a year later after 11 games in charge and losing to teams like Luxembourg. Let's not forget, Kenny had virtually a full selection to pick from against a weak Slovakia team who were missing players, luck was on his side there but he failed to take advantage.

I think the biggest problem is that previous managers can now claim vindication in their theory that we don't have players capable of playing a passing and possession style. And they may be right but I don't think a more progressive style has been given a fair go because we have a manager in place who's completely out of his depth at this level. This most likely will lead us to hiring a manager with similar philosophies to previous regimes. It'll be back to long ball and keeping things tight. The aim of changing the culture of how we play is being seriously damaged by Kenny, not the other way around.

[tetsujin1979]

Pragmatism was giving us about 30% possession in most games. There was no future in conceding the ball for most of the game, putting 11 behind the ball and hoping to nick a lucky goal. That was where we were with McCarthy and later part of O'Neills tenure. Did we have something like 20% possession away to Wales when we won with the McClean goal? Possession is not everything but it at least gives us some sort of gameplan and a base to start from.
Average seems to be around 30% - BBC(29%), SkySports(28.8%), Guardian(36%). Still terrible, but we had a gameplan to make the best use of the possession that we did have.
Under Kenny, we've had the majority of the possession against Luxembourg(63%-37%) (https://www.skysports.com/football/republic-of-ireland-vs-luxembourg/441552) Bulgaria at home(58-42) (https://www.skysports.com/football/republic-of-ireland-vs-bulgaria/stats/424032) and away(62.3-37.7) (https://www.skysports.com/football/bulgaria-vs-republic-of-ireland/stats/423884), Wales home(50.4%-49.6%) (https://www.skysports.com/football/republic-of-ireland-vs-wales/stats/423962) and away(51%-49%) (https://www.skysports.com/football/wales-vs-republic-of-ireland/stats/424008), and Finland at home(53.1%-47.9%) (https://www.skysports.com/football/republic-of-ireland-vs-finland/stats/423915). We scored one goal in total in those games. Against Serbia and Qatar, we had 44% and 45% of possession, respectively, and scored three goals. Should he set his teams up to make better use of the ball when we do have it with a more direct style of play?


Kenny is trying to chance the entire culture of how we play, the problem is that he's probably trying to do too much too quickly with a brutal bunch of players. He does probably need to be a bit more pragmatic but again I go back to the likes of thr Slovakia game where we were very good and had more than enough chances to win the game comfortably if the players didn't make a balls of it, especially Hourihane at the end of the game. If we had won that game and had qualified there would be a very different opinion of Kenny by a lot of people.

I'm still in the camp of thinking he's right for the job but I absolutely admit he needs to see a bit of luck change and get some wins.Well, yeah. People have different opinions of managers who win games and qualify for tournaments to those that don't.

[Razors left peg]

t we had a gameplan to make the best use of the possession that we did have.


Did we? My memories of that Wales game was that it was painful to watch, we were awful and were blessed to win.

[tetsujin1979]

Did we? My memories of that Wales game was that it was painful to watch, we were awful and were blessed to win.

I would say that the result proves we did, yes.

[Razors left peg]

My point is that we were lucky and that sort of set up was not sustainable. We were all on here for years talking about how crap were were to watch and constantly crying out for someone like Wes to be in the team so we could do something on the ball.

[pineapple stu]

That's too short-sighted tets.

There's been a few games we've been God-awful in and scammed results. Serbia away and Germany at home stand out. Increasingly they were becoming anomalies though. Exceptions to the rule of poor results like 1-6 v Germany, 1-4 v Wales, and 1-0 v Gibraltar.

You can't just take the result as a definitive vindication of tactics and ignore the performance. That's effectively what has us sunk so low today

[seanfhear]

Things are desperate Lads and the Females ~ desperate.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

The thing is that no one was saying we were in a good state, far from it! Expectations were low for any new manager coming in but to fail to come close to those low expectations is a really bad indictment of Kenny. We were in a bad situation and somehow it's got far worse.

There seems to be some fantastical belief that this is all just a minor blip on the road and all we have to do is wait until Kenny works his magic and we'll be playing like Brazil 1970 at the upcoming major championships. So far all we've seen is a manager unsure of his formation, tactics, starting line up, incapable of making effective substitutions or tactical changes who was given a lesson in organisation by Luxembourg. If this continues, when will people accept that the manager with the worst managerial record an Ireland manager has ever had, just might be one of the worst managers we've ever had?

[Razors left peg]

This is has become a circular argument were people have strong opinions on both sides and we both continue to make the same arguments over and over again.

We can all agree that results have been awful, historically bad. Some of us think there are mitigating factors. There is no doubt that if we continue with these results to the end of campaign he will have to go, but if there are signs of progression then I think we stick with him

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

I wasn't talking about here. More about the media coverage and supporter reaction in general to this. I don't know why Kenny has got such an easy ride given the stick previous managers took with far more impressive results. Anyway, we'll just have to see how it goes. I hope I'm wrong and Kenny turns this thing around as it would be great for the future of the game here. If he does I'll streak across Lansdowne Road and bow down before Kenny and worship the messiah.

BOOMSHAKALAKA!!!!!

[Kingdom]

For me it's very simple, and there's some easy questions that guide whether I can take someone's point seriously or not.

If someone says that Kenny is dealing with the same squad that McCarthy, or ONeill for that matter, had, then you're comparing fleshlights with fannies, and I'll find it hard to take your opinion seriously. Older, worse for wear, not playing for clubs, out-of-form and completely inexperienced.

We are absolutely stuck in a circular argument, and it won't get any better any time soon. The man needs a win, and needs it desperately. For all the talk of 'we should have beaten Slovakia', it's not certain that we'd have beaten the north in the next game either.

Has Kenny under-performed? At this current vantage point, I'd have to say there's been elements that I'm unimpressed with.Overall though, no, I don't think he has. But for me the key point is would I be selecting players other than what he's selected - In the main no, perhaps the squad filler would have been a touch different here and there.
Would I have played a different style of football? No, because I don't think that we've the players to play the other style of football either.

Would I say Kenny is unlucky? Yes, I absolutely would, and the lucky-general tag - while a cliché - sometimes has more than just a hollow-ring to it. Mick absolutely got lucky away to Gibraltar, we were an absolute disgrace that night, and didn't deserve to win, but we did. Were we a disgrace against Luxembourg? No, but we didn't deserve to win either.
Against Gibraltar, Jeff scuffs one in, Randz pulls off a worldie and we win; against Luxembourg, Collins has a point blank effort stopped and Luxembourg blast in a hopeful one. It happens sometimes, and it's happening to Kenny teams.

Has Kenny been brave with some selections? I would say that he's been braver than any previous manager we've had. I think anyone that says he's been brave out of necessity, just brave, or just foolish, all have equal merit. But how often has a group of us here bemoaned the performance of McClean, Hendrick, Brady or Hourihane? Plenty. They've been analysed to death here, and to be fair to Kenny, he gave each of them sufficient chances to prove that things would be better, and not one of them proved him wrong. So what was he do? Continue to pick them, and hope for something better to come along?
I think there's not too many managers would have picked 3 cb's, dropped Duffy and played Seamus on the right of three - but it was absolutely the correct thing to do.

Ultimately, bar a few exceptions, the majority of the players he has integrated into the team (OShea, Kelleher, Cullen, Molumby, Knight, Connolly) are players who are going to be squad mainstays for the rest of the decade, and will become senior players by default by the start of the 2026 campaign. He's given them their grace period, and I just hope that he gets the time to see it come to fruition.
Look at McCarthy's reign. Had to overhaul an ageing squad in 96, but could still call on Alan Kelly, Roy Keane, Phil Babb, Steve Staunton, Denis Irwin, Gary Kelly, Andy Townsend, Niall Quinn, Alan McLoughlin, Jason McAteer, Mark Kennedy as established pros with either world cup finals experience or title-winning or cup-winners in his first year in charge. His first qualifying campaign was awful in his first year too - in a very very weak group (when compared with this one), and it wasn't until the start of his squads 3rd season (95/96, 96/97, 97-98) that it started to come together and those other players that he had to blood started to gel (Given, Cunningham, Breen, Connolly).

I personally would have liked to see Kenny bring his 21s group through to a finals first. That for me would have been ideal, and I've no doubt it would have happened. And as circumstances turned out, had Mick remained in the job, then we possibly would have qualified for Euro 2020. But I've no doubt in my mind, that if we'd qualified, and Mick was in charge - given the example of what we'd seen, and with no fans in attendance - that our results would equal Euro 2012 in terms of disappointment and performances - and then a rebuild would happen and we'd be in just as bad of a position ultimately. And just for clarity, I'm delighted we're not in Euro 2020, because we're not fit to be there.
I'd much prefer for us to muddle through this campaign [it will likely get worse (10, 7 & 6 points behind Portugal, Serbia & Luxembourg respectively), before it gets better], and have a good rattle at a potentially tough NL in 2022 (Ukraine, Norway, Ireland, Albania for example). Just like the June window is v important, so too is the Mar 2022 window.

And a lot of the onus comes back on the players too. A manager needs to have a group of players playing regular football ultimately. In that regard the summer is going to be crucial for many of our international talent pool. Because, like it or not, it either comes to fruition for us, or it doesn't, with the this style of football and with these types of players.

[zero]

is there a way to block an individual poster on this site?

[tetsujin1979]

is there a way to block an individual poster on this site?

Click their name in a post, then "View profile".
In the profile screen, in the menu on the left, there's a link to "Add to ignore list".

[Snapshot]

For me it's very simple, and there's some easy questions that guide whether I can take someone's point seriously or not . . . .


Your main points in a monumental post, as I see them, are as follows:

* For me it's very simple . . . whether I can take someone's point seriously or not.

* Has Kenny under-performed? No

* Would I have played a different style of football? No.

* Would I say Kenny is unlucky? Yes.

* Were we a disgrace against Luxembourg? No.

* Has Kenny been brave with some selections? Braver than any previous manager.

* Had Mick remained in the job, then we possibly would have qualified for Euro 2020 . . . I'm delighted we're not in Euro 2020.

* This campaign will likely get worse before it gets better . . .

* It either comes to fruition for us, or it doesn't.


There's a hint there as to why others may not take your opinions seriously.

[Real ale Madrid]

There's a hint there as to why others may not take your opinions seriously.

Here's a hint for you - Its not for you or anyone else to prescribe what other people think of other people's post. This is a discussion forum. If YOU disagree with a post then YOU say so and back up YOUR OWN argument accordingly.

[Exgrad]

Didn't really meant to open another chapter in the Stephen Kenny culture wars when i posted about the relative strengths of the Ireland v Lux teams...just pointing out where our squad is at at the moment, and the cavalry isn't riding over the hill anytime soon, judging by how our younger players are performing at club level right now.

A few of our players after the Lux game pointed out how embarrassing it was to lose to Lux at home (which it was), i just think its interesting that some of the Lux players are playing at a far higher level than our "embarrassed" players are (i.e. scoring goals in the Bundesliga rather than getting dropped by crappy Championship and League 1 teams). Hopefully some of our younger players can show the determination and work rate it requires to move their careers on, as some of these Lux players have.

I'm hoping things work out for Kenny, as i did for every Ireland manager, even the ones i never wanted getting the job. There's lots Kenny has done that i like, but he has made loads of mistakes as well (obvious one dropping our one high performing, vastly experienced, Prem League player in Coleman). Its clear at this stage he is working with the weakest squad that i can remember us having.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

I'm not going to quote Kingdoms post but just to make a few points. I think it was you who agreed the time for excuses was over prior to the Luxembourg game. That was Kenny's first 'gimme' game according to yourself. Kenny's first game was less than a year after McCarthy against a very poor Bulgaria, this was the team he picked:

Randolph, Doherty, Egan, Duffy, Stevens, Hendrick, McCarthy, Hourihane, Connolly, Idah, O'Dowda. He had the luxary of dropping Coleman and had a strong bench. We scraped a 1-1 draw with an injury time set piece goal. That was really our first 'gimme' game under Kenny and it set the tone for what was to come.

Kenny's record is played 11, won 0, drew 5 and lost 6, scoring 4 goals in total. The worst managerial record in our history, if you don't think that's under performing then I really don't know what to say. You're basically saying that he can lose as many games as he wants and you'll back him.

Then you list our more excuses. When playing Luxembourg at home, you win, no excuses can cover up that shameful performance, full stop.

You were saying he had a desperate selection to pick from on one hand but then outlining a number of players who gained huge experience at their clubs between McCarthy's time and his on the other. OShea, Cullen, Molumby, Knight, Connolly. If anything, he has a better squad than McCarthy bar McGoldrick who he had for the Slovakia game and failed to qualify us. By the way, I most definitely would want to qualify for any major championship and McCarthy was very close, Kenny has got us knocked out after 2 games of this campaign.

You then make an argument for actually leaving McCarthy in charge! He has actually done a rebuilding job with Ireland before as you pointed out. His record was played 10, won 5, drew 4 and lost 1. Looking at it now, leaving him in charge instead of a manager out of his depth would have been the correct decision.

No guarantee we would have qualified with the u21's, Kenny lost away in Iceland but I agree he should have been left with underage players or in some development role, the senior job is out of his capabilities.

You then have got your excuses in early, you expect us to do disastrously for the rest of this campaign and then if we manage to get a draw against a big team or a win you can say Kenny is doing better than expected. That seems to be the direction his media pals are going also.

If he continues on with the awful performances and results we've seen up to date, then he has to go. There's no other campaign for him. 11 games is longer than McCarthy had in his latest spell. Staunton had 17 games. He has a cult following who will back him no matter what, that's great and all but we can't let ourselves drop down to 5th or 6th seeds and seriously damage the future of the game here. As time goes on, it looks more and more like we've appointed a flop. At some stage, even the Kenny worshipers will have to face up to it if the performances and results continue.

[paul_oshea]

is there a way to block an individual poster on this site?

Kingdom? Theres a lot of nonsense talk, but I dont think thats a good idea. You don't get to follow threads properly if you go down that route.

You'd get as much information from the shopping channel whilst enjoying a good cup of tea.

[paul_oshea]

If he continues on with the awful performances and results we've seen up to date, then he has to go. There's no other campaign for him. 11 games is longer than McCarthy had in his latest spell. Staunton had 17 games. He has a cult following who will back him no matter what, that's great and all but we can't let ourselves drop down to 5th or 6th seeds and seriously damage the future of the game here. As time goes on, it looks more and more like we've appointed a flop. At some stage, even the Kenny worshipers will have to face up to it if the performances and results continue.

You;ve made a very good point, there seems to be an element in the "support" base, who keep throwing out the lines of "we dont deserve to be at a Euros", "i dont want us in a major competition", "we're building for the future". You're not building for the future by dropping down to 5th seeds, youre making it nigh on impossible for our "next" generation to qualify. We dont have a conveyor belt of players to step up, and no amount of underage structure and top coaching will change that. Spinning out the same record again and again is nonsensical, it contradicts the main point of your(not you personally said posters) argument.

[pineapple stu]

We dont have a conveyor belt of players to step up, and no amount of underage structure and top coaching will change that.
Woah there. That's a huge statement. And I would argue it's nonsense too. Smaller countries than us are doing way, way better.

Improving things at underage absolutely can and will improve things. The Miguel Delaney article I've linked a number of times indicates this. You don't have to agree with it, but you really should provide some sort of argument behind a point as sweeping as that.

[CraftyToePoke]

We dont have a conveyor belt of players to step up, and no amount of underage structure and top coaching will change that

Posher - ingredients do not make a recipe - alternative reality insight right there.