Shooting of George Nkencho

[osarusan]

He was shot by police outside his home in Clonee while holding/threatening with a knife or machete. The police had followed him home after he had been involved in 2 incidents at Hartstown Shopping Centre, one of which resulted in a member of Eurospar staff going to hospital for his injuries.

Police first tried to subdue him with pepper spray, then with tasers, but neither worked and they finally resorted to live ammunition.

There have been protests overnight and today in the Blanchardstown area, outside the Garda station there as well as other sporadic stuff. Stuff like #justiceforgeorge, people taking a knee, and so on. Reports that staff at Eurospar being intimidated too.

The facts will all come out in the end I suppose, but this seems to be a pretty bad case to make the poster child for discrimination/racism. The Gardai seem to have followed procedure pretty well as far as I can see.

There are also suggestions he suffered from mental illness. That seems to be thrown in all the time these days. But even if true, it doesn't really impact on Gardai procedure when presented with the threat.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Shootings of this kind are so rare in Ireland (compared to some other countries...) that there a realistic expectation of a detailed investigation into what happened and whether the use of live ammunition was really necessary.

Regards racism, obviously some people here are attempting to tie it into #BlackLivesMatters. From my professional life, that involves working with lots and lots of non-nationals in an academic context, I can tell you (what you already probably know) that for a lot of them their perception of police is very negative on a lot of levels: a feeling that they don't get equitable treatment in comparison to white Irish, that any effort to contact Garda over a criminal problem they have will jeopardise their visa applications the next time they are made and, in fairness, a suspicion of any police based on lingering resentment to the often authoritarian police from their home countries. I outline this (very anecdotal) state of affairs to help explain why an incident such as what happens would engender anger, protests, etc. A lot of non-white citizens/non-nationals in this country are scared of our police.

As regards "mental illness", it's such a broad term that I feel it has a certain amount of uselessness in the context of a discussion like this. Lots of people have mental health issues. If it wasn't diagnosed professionally then it can't be considered a factor, unfortunately. And if it was, the question is more "What was done, or not done, about it?" and less "Should the Garda have treated him differently?"

The more useful question is why 12 Garda (and then additional ASU) felt the situation was so dire that shooting the man was the appropriate response. And I mean that genuinely: it's too easy to say "Oh, the better part of 20 guards should have been able to disarm one mentally ill guy without killing him". Someone opened fire for a reason, and I want to know what the reason was. Did they feel someones life was in imminent danger if they didn't? Is there really nothing between "taser" and "bullet" that could have been tried? The man was shot near his home, could his family have talked him down, and were they given the chance to try adequately? Is the graduated response good enough, now that we have seen it implemented with fatal result?

A proper investigation/inquiry should aim to answer all those questions and, yes, look into whether there was any possible racial aspect of what happened, and improve policing. That's not going to sooth the pain of his family of course. Nkencho's death is a tragedy and where-ever something went wrong that led to that moment it shouldn't have happened. But I don't really know what other response would be more helpful to society. Just because American police are a bit more trigger-happy with POC, doesn't neccesarily mean ours are.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, I don't think anything has come out to challenge that version of events alright, and I agree with the get-out clause of mental health issues. Is it confirmed he had a machete rather than a knife? A knife is a dangerous weapon, but a machete is a whole other level of pre-meditated scumbaggery.

In particular there's nothing to remotely suggest this was in any way racist. There's broad parallels with the Mark Hennessy case - the guy who was shot dead by Gardaí in the Jastine Valdez case two years ago. Both were being actively pursued by Gardaí for violent crimes, both ignored repeated Garda requests and instead directly attacked the Gardaí. It's an unfortunate last resort, but we've seen cases of Gardaí being killed on duty and I am more than happy to prioritise the safety of the gards over a wanted violent criminal.

I don't recall these protests when Hennessy was shot though. Really the only difference is that Hennessy was white and Nkencho was black. In that case, people protesting over the latter but not for the former are, and let's be quite open about this, racist.

It's unfortunate, but I suppose inevitable these days, that the blue-haired, pronoun-bearing, all-cops-are-*******s-but-racist-comments-will-be-blocked type on Twitter are having a field day over it. But the most concerning part is the number of high profile people buying into this narrative. Ruth Coppinger for example - "Extremely concerning that young man is killed, brandishing a knife but not armed otherwise". What a stupid comment. A knife is a lethal weapon. Plenty of TDs expressing condolences and concerns over Gardaí actions that I doubt were expressed at the time of the Hennessy case (Lynn Ruane has responded to critics by saying they can "Go ask me arse"). Black Lives Matter groups and UCD's Ebun Joseph (of "Ribena is racist" infamy) are trying to shoehorn racism into it too, which is actively divisive and unhelpful.

Then you have RTÉ, whose news report included comments from people apparently close to Nkencho saying "He wouldn't hurt a fly". The only way this is true is that it's hard to hit a fly with a machete or large knife. The Irish Times quote Nkencho's saying "My brother never bothered anybody", and various other comments along those lines, which again are completely at odds with a guy assaulting a shop worker with a large knife. Concern for the shop worker - who's in hospital after being punched in the face and attacked with a large knife - and the Garda who was attacked with a large knife in the course of doing his job is an afterthought.

I think this case calls for strong political leadership - someone to stand up and say that this was not racist, to outline established Garda protocol for dealing with potentially violent people, and to condemn the protests and the harrassment of Gardaí and people in the shop. Otherwise, you could have the loonies start to take over the asylum.

I don't see that strong leadership coming from anywhere though.

[pineapple stu]

A lot of non-white citizens/non-nationals in this country are scared of our police.
Is that not their problem though? You note that some of this stems from experiences in their home country for example, and certainly police in other countries are very different to here. That's definitely not an issue for the Gardaí. Some of it stems from "a feeling that they don't get equitable treatment" or "a feeling that it will jeopardise their visa applications" - anyone can have a negative feeling about something. Is it valid though? That's the kind of thing that can very easily be reinforced by selective media - ie you see negative news which reinforces your view, and don't see positive bits which would counter your view. The kind of algorithms social media news aggregators excel at...

To me, the above would be an argument against multi-culturalism than against the Gardaí. If people come to this country with such divergent views about something as basic as law authority - and I think people don't realise just how different other cultures can be over basic things like this - then there needs to be a rethink as to whether we should really be bringing these cultures into the country.


Did they feel someones life was in imminent danger if they didn't?
Well the guy had turned on a guard with the knife, hadn't he? If so, that's very much a case of your life being in imminent danger. Knives are lethal weapons, and a knife attack leaves you with really little time to react. There are videos on YouTube which show just how quickly you can get a fatal wound from an unexpected knife attack.

[pineapple stu]

Don't mean to take over the thread, but it's a quiet time in a quiet sub-forum of a quiet forum I guess!

The various reactions to this will tell a lot about various people I think. (Me included I guess!) But here's a quote from a HotPress interview with Nkencho's brother (https://www.hotpress.com/culture/george-nkencho-a-friend-of-man-shot-by-gardai-in-dublin-talks-exclusively-to-hot-press-22837684) yesterday -


While the nature of the mental health issues George was dealing with are unclear, Israel reckons that years of witnessing and experiencing racial inequality, had caused his friend’s mental health to suffer badly.

The fact that Nkencho couldn't reach his dream of becoming a football player, Ibanu says, was at least in part because people of colour often have to work 'ten times harder' than native Irish players. Sometimes, he says, they exhaust themselves proving their worth to coaches and employers.
To simply come along and with no evidence whatsoever blame the Irish people (a) for his friend's mental health issues (if they even exist) and (b) his failure to make it as a pro footballer (when in fact, black players are over-represented on recent U21 teams) is, for me, racism. Pure and simple.

But I doubt there'll be many protests over that.

[osarusan]

As regards "mental illness", it's such a broad term that I feel it has a certain amount of uselessness in the context of a discussion like this. Lots of people have mental health issues. If it wasn't diagnosed professionally then it can't be considered a factor, unfortunately. And if it was, the question is more "What was done, or not done, about it?" and less "Should the Garda have treated him differently?"

I agree with this. Even if turns out that there was a history of mental issues there, it's more a question of how that could have been dealt with earlier in his life, rather than how it could/should have impacted on Garda actions at the time.



The more useful question is why 12 Garda (and then additional ASU) felt the situation was so dire that shooting the man was the appropriate response. And I mean that genuinely: it's too easy to say "Oh, the better part of 20 guards should have been able to disarm one mentally ill guy without killing him". Someone opened fire for a reason, and I want to know what the reason was. Did they feel someones life was in imminent danger if they didn't? Is there really nothing between "taser" and "bullet" that could have been tried? The man was shot near his home, could his family have talked him down, and were they given the chance to try adequately? Is the graduated response good enough, now that we have seen it implemented with fatal result?

A proper investigation/inquiry should aim to answer all those questions and, yes, look into whether there was any possible racial aspect of what happened, and improve policing. That's not going to sooth the pain of his family of course. Nkencho's death is a tragedy and where-ever something went wrong that led to that moment it shouldn't have happened.
For sure there will be an investigation that will ask these questions and more, but I'm not so sure there necessarily needs to be something that went wrong, some failing somewhere, on the part of the police.

[osarusan]

I don't recall these protests when Hennessy was shot though. Really the only difference is that Hennessy was white and Nkencho was black. In that case, people protesting over the latter but not for the former are, and let's be quite open about this, racist

As you mentioned, there will be people trying to turn this into something it's not, whether it's Ebun Joseph trying to make everything about race, or the overwrought wafflers on twitter, or even people trying to work in an immigration narrative.

But I don't see how people grasping at any straw at all to try and turn it into a race issue (which was obviously not possible with Hennessy), stupid and/or agenda-laden though their actions are, are racist. I don't see the argument there.

I don't see how the Hot Press quote is racism either tbh. It's somebody trying to come up with a narrative to explain Nkencho's mental state/mental collapse (if that even happened, as you say). I don't see how that is 'blaming the Irish people' as you put it.

Definitely, there is a current trend of people (opportunists) trying to frame things as racial - A was white and B was black, therefore what happened between A and B was because one was white and the other was black. I don't see that as racism in and of itself though, just a woeful argument. Maybe I am misunderstanding your point.

The football excuse is particularly silly I think, as if there's one field in which ability matters more than anything else, and it's not possible to hide a weakness, it's sport. If somebody makes it, it's because they're good enough. If they don't, they're not good enough.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think there is far too much detailed information out there for people to draw hard and fast conclusions about what exactly happened and the relative justification or lack thereof, but I do find it interesting across the board how readily black people's feelings and opinions are being discounted and dismissed out of hand.

[pineapple stu]

But I don't see how people grasping at any straw at all to try and turn it into a race issue (which was obviously not possible with Hennessy), stupid and/or agenda-laden though their actions are, are racist. I don't see the argument there.

I don't see how the Hot Press quote is racism either tbh. It's somebody trying to come up with a narrative to explain Nkencho's mental state/mental collapse (if that even happened, as you say). I don't see how that is 'blaming the Irish people' as you put it.

Definitely, there is a current trend of people (opportunists) trying to frame things as racial - A was white and B was black, therefore what happened between A and B was because one was white and the other was black. I don't see that as racism in and of itself though, just a woeful argument. Maybe I am misunderstanding your point
Well my point is that people - including media and public officials - appear to be reacting differently to the Hennessy and Nkencho cases purely based on the colour of the victim. There is no other substantial difference in the two cases. You can't protest or question a black guy being shot by the Gardaí and ignore a white guy being shot for the same thing. To me, that's racist. You're discriminating purely on skin colour. There's no victim of the racism as such, but it's racist nonetheless.

On the Hot Press quotes, maybe there's a bit more nuance than it than just racism alright. But how much difference is there between a football coach discriminating against black players, and a black player accusing a football coach of discriminating against black players (as the brother has done when he says that black players have to work ten times harder to get noticed)? To me, they're two sides of the same coin. If it's not open racism, then I think it's very comparable.


I do find it interesting across the board how readily black people's feelings and opinions are being discounted and dismissed out of hand.
That's really too vague a comment for anyone to really reply to. Context/examples would be good? Do you mean my post (in which case I don't know why you're bringing race into it; I'd have said it about anyone who made those comments) or is it something else you're alluding to?

[pineapple stu]

Should add a couple of news updates I suppose -

Nkencho's brother is claiming the knife was a butter knife (which doesn't fit in with what had previous been reported), and has been filmed leading a bit of a rally calling for the guard responsible to have his contract terminated, finishing by saying "When we get him..." to large cheers. There's been a spate of violence in the area in the past 24 hours, some of it racially motivated (particularly the predominantly black people blockading shoppers into a Spar and shouting "You ****ing white *******s") Some videos here (https://gript.ie/anger-at-media-blackout-of-violent-protests-in-blanchardstown-after-george-nkencho-shooting/). There were some protests called for by some of the loonier elements of Twitter (MERJ I think?) which seem to have been largely ignored, thankfully.

It all seems like it has the potential to get quite nasty, although the flip side is that objects in social media mirrors are often larger than they appear.

[Charlie Darwin]

That's really too vague a comment for anyone to really reply to. Context/examples would be good? Do you mean my post (in which case I don't know why you're bringing race into it; I'd have said it about anyone who made those comments) or is it something else you're alluding to?
Well I said across the board as in across society. I know social media is only a snapshot but here and elsewhere I don't see very much discussion of why black people in Ireland are upset and why it might, to some extent, be a reaction that's not solely based on the exact circumstances of what happened yesterday.

[sbgawa]

I have zero interest in the guys colour, when i heard it reported first it was simply said guy assaulted shopkeeper and then attacked guards with knife and was shot dead.
Good riddance was my view when i didn't know what colour he was. My view hasn't changed.

I would have no problem listening to any complaints black people have but this isnt a cause they should be looking to make an issue of.
What about all the positive issues they could look to promote, number of non white players at under age football and athletics???
Black people are like white people , there are good people and scumbags represented in both

[D24Saint]

It’s a hard life to live in this country when you are from here & white. I have great empathy with people of colour as I say the ****e you put up with is awful. That being said this is a non story , black white or purple that individual seemed a right toerag. It shouldn’t have ended the way it did , **** unfortunately happens and I don’t envy the Garda that had to make that call.

[osarusan]

Well my point is that people - including media and public officials - appear to be reacting differently to the Hennessy and Nkencho cases purely based on the colour of the victim. There is no other substantial difference in the two cases. You can't protest or question a black guy being shot by the Gardaí and ignore a white guy being shot for the same thing. To me, that's racist. You're discriminating purely on skin colour. There's no victim of the racism as such, but it's racist nonetheless.

If somebody is arguing (sincerely or disingenuously) that there is an issue with police/institutional discrimination towards non-whites in Ireland, why would they want to protest the Hennessy shooting? It has nothing to do with the argument they are making. I don't see that as racist at all, just that it doesn't offer an opportunity to make the argument.

Yeah, some public figures come out of this looking awful. Lynn Ruane and Paul Murphy in particular, but tbh, as my mother says, 'what else would you expect from a pig but a grunt'.

I think these days, likely as a result of the instantness of social media, people (including, or especially, public representatives) feel an unfortunate need to take a position, make a public statement, as soon as possible, well before all or even any facts are established. This isn't helped by people happily weaponising the fact that somebody hasn't immediately taken a position (along the lines of WHY IS VARADKAR SILENT ON THIS?, or WHY IS RTE NOT COVERING THIS?).

Hopefully people can just slow down and wait for facts to emerge and investigations to take place, and that people looking to stir shyte get as little traction as possible.



I would have no problem listening to any complaints black people have but this isnt a cause they should be looking to make an issue of.

Yeah, as I said in my opening post, I think this is a very unsuitable incident behind which to try and further a cause.

[pineapple stu]

Well I said across the board as in across society. I know social media is only a snapshot but here and elsewhere I don't see very much discussion of why black people in Ireland are upset and why it might, to some extent, be a reaction that's not solely based on the exact circumstances of what happened yesterday.
OK, fair enough. Yeah, it's an interesting point. One possibility - and I'm just throwing this out for discussion; I don't know if it's the case or not - is that there aren't any overriding reasons for them to be upset, but shouting loudly is a good way of getting things. In that case, there probably isn't a huge amount of tangible evidence to cite for their upset. I don't think that morally, Ireland has any obligation to help those who simply rock up on our shores, or to take in migrants who choose to leave Africa or the Middle East (predominantly) for Ireland. I think mass migration is a very destabilising influence on parts of the world, and does more harm than good.

But leave that aside - if you get refugee status here (and I know not all black people here are refugees), then you're entitled to the same rights as anyone else, including free education, welfare payments, a medical card, social housing, training, etc. That's a pretty good deal.

Is there racism in Ireland? Sure there is. (On both sides, as the events in Hartstown yesterday showed) Is it sufficient to cause huge anger among the black communities? I don't see that's ever remotely been shown. Are they sold a vision of the American dream and then feel let down or even embarrassed if they end up unqualified for a lot of jobs, and end up on a minimum wage job somewhere? Welcome to real life, unfortunately.

But the problem is that if that bad things - like being arrested, or being unable to find a decent job - end up being ascribed to racism, then you potentially set in place a system where you start to see racism everywhere, even if it's not there.

As I say, that's a theory, not fact. But I think it should form part of the discussion.




It’s a hard life to live in this country when you are from here & white.
Is it? I don't think it is. Of course everyone has a different experience, but if you compare it to most other countries, then life here is very comfortable. One of the highest life expectancies in the world. One of the highest levels of income in the world. You really only need to work for little more than half your life (ballpark, assuming you finish education by 21 and retire at 65). Freedom to travel pretty much anywhere in the world. Car ownership, internet access, phone access pretty much universal. No major environmental issues. Political stability. No particular suppression of media or beliefs, even the stupid ones. No domineering religion suggesting you should be killed if you leave the religion or have a child out of wedlock or if you wear this or drink that. Close to full employment, and welfare supports available while out of work. There's a lot of countries around the world where you won't find most of that.

Yes, there's issues - public transport/town planning is bad. High cost of housing and insurance, probably boosted by Government and vested interests (solicitors, builders, etc). And if you want to try keep up with the Joneses and have a new car/phone/TV all the time, then you might find you're not earning enough to do that and it might be a hit to the aul self-esteem.

But by and large, we have it very good here.

[pineapple stu]

If somebody is arguing (sincerely or disingenuously) that there is an issue with police/institutional discrimination towards non-whites in Ireland, why would they want to protest the Hennessy shooting? It has nothing to do with the argument they are making. I don't see that as racist at all, just that it doesn't offer an opportunity to make the argument.
That's true. I just wonder if that is the argument that they're making, or if it's just a way of verbalising some inherent racism. If their starting point is "Black good, white bad" instead, then they would look at this case and jump to the conclusion that the case must be racist, because - well, black good, white bad. So it's the other way around to how you have it (which I acknowledge could well be the case). And certainly I agree with you that whichever way it's arisen, it's a bad argument.

Arguably, that's part of a growing general anti-white sentiment too - maybe it's a curious sort of internal success shame rather than reverse racism, but it's something. Leo Varadkar when he notes the Gardaí and the civil service are "too white" is being racist (and unhelpfully divisive too). People who complain about "pale stale males" (yes, I know it's mostly on the cesspit of Twitter...) are racist. I thought the reaction to the PSG - Istanbul abandonment in the Champions League last month was interesting; the entire focus was on the word Romanian word "negrul" being used even though Womé or Ba didn't know the context (John Barnes - who literally wrote the book on racism in English football - spent the evening on Twitter defending the linesmen, arguing that "the black one" was a perfectly valid and easy way of identifying the one black coach among seven), yet no-one discussed the issue that Womé was reportedly sent off for calling the linesman a "gypsy" all game. You can find a few more examples - Gary Neville's comments on the Cavani case were naval-gazing at its worst I thought, and Philip O'Connor (RTÉ correspondent in Sweden, when needed) is openly hypocritical on these matters. By and large they're small issues (so far). But I think it's there. It's why I think this is more an extension of that factor, rather than an independently-held view that there's institutionalised racism in the Garda ranks.

It's also why I dislike what the BLM campaign has become - taking the knee at football games is just daft for example (as Les Ferdinand pointed out three months ago). It just entrenches the idea of black people as oppressed and helps stifle critical debate on the matter. And there's a real inherent danger when one group in society becomes above criticism in a way, as seen in the Rochdale child grooming gang case in England, where for ten years police didn't properly investigate complaints, apparently for fear of being labeled racist.

(That post is a little bit all over the place actually! Apologies for that)


The latest update on this is from today's Sunday Times (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gardai-had-to-shoot-george-nkencho-under-public-safety-protocols-wkg5vk6mf?t=ie) -


Officers say they had previously been called to deal with disturbances arising from his behaviour at the house in Manorfields. Members of the family had obtained protection orders against the young man on the basis that he posed a threat to their safety.
So this would invalidate earlier comments put about that he "wouldn't harm a fly" and similar. (I think all here are on the one side in regards the Garda actions, but I think it's an important snippet to add to the picture nonetheless)

[osarusan]

The latest update on this is from today's Sunday Times (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gardai-had-to-shoot-george-nkencho-under-public-safety-protocols-wkg5vk6mf?t=ie) -


Officers say they had previously been called to deal with disturbances arising from his behaviour at the house in Manorfields. Members of the family had obtained protection orders against the young man on the basis that he posed a threat to their safety.

So this would invalidate earlier comments put about that he "wouldn't harm a fly" and similar. (I think all here are on the one side in regards the Garda actions, but I think it's an important snippet to add to the picture nonetheless)

I saw that, it certainly casts doubt on some stuff that his brother said at least, and goes a long way to explain why the Gardai felt forced to shoot rather than let him enter the home.

It also came out that he has no convictions, rather than the 30+ that have been mentioned. A lot of agenda-laden misinformation out there from different sides.

[osarusan]

That's true. I just wonder if that is the argument that they're making, or if it's just a way of verbalising some inherent racism. If their starting point is "Black good, white bad" instead, then they would look at this case and jump to the conclusion that the case must be racist, because - well, black good, white bad. So it's the other way around to how you have it (which I acknowledge could well be the case). And certainly I agree with you that whichever way it's arisen, it's a bad argument.

It's just the same reasoning as why Pavee Point have no reason to comment on a particular event not involving a Traveller, it's just outside the sphere of what they care about.

On the rest of that paragraph, I'm not sure I would view it as people wanting to reduce things to 'black good, white bad', I'd rather say that people want to reduce it to a particular difference.

I said in an earlier post that for some people, everything is viewed through the lens of their particular agenda, be that race, gender, religion, disability). If A is different from B in some way (race, gender, religion, disability etc), and something happens between A and B, it must have happened because of that difference, which is an absurd reduction.

There's an element of that happening in this case - he was black and shot dead, therefore he was shot dead because he was black, which is utterly stupid, and the facts coming out make it even more so.

But it happens the other way round also - there was an assault in Carrigaline about 6 months ago, in which a black youth pretty brutally attacked a white youth and stabbed him with a broken bottle (for which he received a pathetic sentence a couple of weeks ago). The same argument was shoehorned in then - IT'S A RACIST ATTACK, FACT. Just because one was black and the other white. No other evidence needed or provided.

Thankfully, in that case, the family of the white victim quickly told the National Party morons (or the Irish Freedom Party, I forget which bunch of jokers it was) trying to shoehorn their agenda to f**k right off.

[Charlie Darwin]

OK, fair enough. Yeah, it's an interesting point. One possibility - and I'm just throwing this out for discussion; I don't know if it's the case or not - is that there aren't any overriding reasons for them to be upset, but shouting loudly is a good way of getting things. In that case, there probably isn't a huge amount of tangible evidence to cite for their upset. I don't think that morally, Ireland has any obligation to help those who simply rock up on our shores, or to take in migrants who choose to leave Africa or the Middle East (predominantly) for Ireland. I think mass migration is a very destabilising influence on parts of the world, and does more harm than good.

But leave that aside - if you get refugee status here (and I know not all black people here are refugees), then you're entitled to the same rights as anyone else, including free education, welfare payments, a medical card, social housing, training, etc. That's a pretty good deal.

Is there racism in Ireland? Sure there is. (On both sides, as the events in Hartstown yesterday showed) Is it sufficient to cause huge anger among the black communities? I don't see that's ever remotely been shown. Are they sold a vision of the American dream and then feel let down or even embarrassed if they end up unqualified for a lot of jobs, and end up on a minimum wage job somewhere? Welcome to real life, unfortunately.

But the problem is that if that bad things - like being arrested, or being unable to find a decent job - end up being ascribed to racism, then you potentially set in place a system where you start to see racism everywhere, even if it's not there.

As I say, that's a theory, not fact. But I think it should form part of the discussion.
Well I think that's kind of my point.

This situation has absolutely nothing to do with you and everything to do with what a small but substantial part of our population feel about how society and the way they perceive themselves to be policed.

And you have brought up Ireland's responsibility for taking in migrants (irrelevant), mass migration generally (irrelevant), refugees (irrelevant) and refugee rights and entitlements (irrelevant). These are all things that you want to talk about but they have nothing to do why a community is grieving in this way.

I mean my first post was about how quickly the concerns of black people have been ignored and how few have actually listened to them. And you've provided a perfect example for... well I have no idea why you'd decided to make this all about mass migration.

[pineapple stu]

Well I think that's kind of my point.

This situation has absolutely nothing to do with you and everything to do with what a small but substantial part of our population feel about how society and the way they perceive themselves to be policed.

No, I can't agree with that.

This is a societal issue, and any discussion shouldn't cut out a (large) section of society, otherwise you have potential for a clear imbalance in the discussion. I am part of society, therefore is absolutely has something to do with me.

So for example there's a video online (below) of a guy addressing a crowd (don't know what size; sounds small enough) in the Blanch area in this regard. He talks of there not being anyone in the Gardaí who looks like him (racist), of needing to own land (he can) and of Ireland being complicit in the slave trade because 100 people here (probably English actually) received compensation when slavery was abolished (irrelevant).

Nkencho's brother is quoted in the media saying pepper spray wasn't used and that a butter knife was carried (both at odds with all reports), that his brother had a "never bothered anybody, he just got on with his own life" (but the family had a restraining order on him) and "Didn’t really go outside, just to the shop and back" (but actually he had just returned from the UK). Protesters are quoted as saying "This is not the first time something like this has happened" - actually, it is - and "there are still one or two institutions that are [racist]" - which is a major claim thrown out with no back-up or evidence whatsoever. Community leaders are quoted as saying people are "very very angry", but again there's no attempt to explain why.

And there's other quotes out there (some on this thread already), none of which attempt to address the issue that a man - who cares what his colour is - swung a lethal weapon at the Gardai, having been warned a number of times to put the weapon down, and was treated exactly as others had been before him. None address subsequent actions such as the blockading of shoppers in Spar and the racist chants directed at them.

To be honest, I think one of the biggest disappointments here has been the lack of any coherent explanation for the anger, despite copious airtime to give one. So while I absolutely agree with you that it should be discussed, it's clear to me that such a discussion needs to be balanced, and needs to have the opportunity for arguments to be rejected and refuted. And hypothetically, if it ultimately turns out that, all things considered, there really isn't any reason for the anger after all, then that possibility needs to be considered.


1345789778701262849

[tetsujin1979]

Have a look through orlaredchan's timeline. Doesn't seem the reasonable type.

[the 12 th man]

In the last 22 years Gardai have shot and killed 6 people,5 were white and 1 was black.
Anybody who has seen the video knows this is a non story.

[Real ale Madrid]

Have a look through orlaredchan's timeline. Doesn't seem the reasonable type.

Anything with an Irish flag on twitter you can draw a line through.

[tetsujin1979]

Some of the rumours going around about Nkencho debunked: https://www.thejournal.ie/george-nkencho-32-convictions-factcheck-5315584-Jan2021/

[NeverFeltBetter]

It's deeply depressing people feel the need to invent that kind of stuff, or that others will repeat it without an ounce of due diligence.

[pineapple stu]

Have a look through orlaredchan's timeline. Doesn't seem the reasonable type.
Is the video real or not? If it's not, then fine - but the above isn't a point at all.

But ignore it if you want. The point that Charlie raised is "I don't see very much discussion of why black people in Ireland are upset and why it might, to some extent, be a reaction that's not solely based on the exact circumstances of what happened yesterday." So I'm trying to bring those voices in (and I think "black people", btw, is a huge group that can't really be clumped together as one, but that's another thread). Here's (https://www.rte.ie/radio1/today-with-claire-byrne/podcasts/) another one from RTÉ Radio earlier today - two local Nigerian pastors who knew George. Again, they ultimately have absolutely nothing to say to justify the reactions to this case, and they gloss over the issue of Nkencho assaulting a person and threatening others with a lethal weapon. They do at least make a brief call for calm protests - but no mention of what is being protested and why.

So I agree with Charlie that these voices need to be heard, but the more they are being heard and the more they have nothing to say, the harder it is to shake the view that there is nothing of substance to their claims, and that there's simply a gang of people who are using this case to create trouble.

On the FactCheck, it's certainly important that facts are confirmed (and on a similar note, the Gardaí have confirmed the knife was a kitchen knife, not a machete). And yes, it's frustrating how easy the internet makes fake news (let's be honest, we've all been taken in by something, albeit not necessarily of such importance)

But again, that needs balance. Where's the fact check article on claims he was only carrying a butter knife (he wasn't), that he only went out the odd occasion to go down the shops (but he'd apparently just returned from the UK), that he was a peaceful person (but his family apparently had a restraining order against him), etc

Any debate needs balance to get to the truth of the matter and its resolution.

[tetsujin1979]

orlaredchan clearly has an agenda, and the account's timeline is a cesspool. If you want something to be taken seriously, post something from a user who can be taken seriously.
Are you saying that if the42 can't check everything that's online about Nkencho, they shouldn't publish anything?

[osarusan]

Orlaredchan is indeed a cesspool of an account and not to be taken seriously when it comes to any claims or 'facts' they might assert.

But all Stu has done is link to a video posted there. Either the video is genuine or it isn't.

And Stu is making the point that the Journal fact-checked only those rumours which portrayed Nchenko in a worse light, not those which portrayed him in a better light.

I'd disagree with Stu to some extent, as some of those rumours ('he was a peaceful guy') are things that can't exactly be 'fact-checked' or disproven in the way that specific claims like 'he had 32 convictions' can be disproven, but the point is still valid. The Examiner, for example, when highlighting that Nchenko was not armed with a machete, could also easily have included a sentence along the lines of 'which also disproves claims made by his brother that he was armed only with a butter knife.'

It's fair to ask why the Journal felt the need to fact-check one but not the other when the fact they do have (it was a kitchen knife) disproves both claims.

[Real ale Madrid]

I'm not sure any reasonably minded person believes that Black people can't own land. I don't know what posting a video like that does to service the debate over this mans death tbh. A small section of society is up in arms of this man's death - far right nutjobs have responded in kind. The rest of us should leave them at it imo.

I'd like to see a full investigation into the death of this man and I think the use of lethal force was excessive. There seems to be some small elements of racial profiling in police forces throughout Europe - as indicted by a recent ECR Statement https://rm.coe.int/statement-of-ecri-on-racist-police-abuse-including-racial-profiling-an/16809eee6a so while I very much doubt its an issue in this particular case its hardly outlandish to suggest it.

[pineapple stu]

But all Stu has done is link to a video posted there. Either the video is genuine or it isn't.
I should add that a video is at least a good bit harder to fake than a photo too. It's clear it's a group of black people talking about race issues in Ireland for example, and it's clear it's not high summer.


I'd disagree with Stu to some extent, as some of those rumours ('he was a peaceful guy') are things that can't exactly be 'fact-checked' or disproven in the way that specific claims like 'he had 32 convictions' can be disproven, but the point is still valid.
Actually, I'd agree with this. The examples weren't great alright, but you've taken the underlying point.

Maybe a better example - not perfect, but better - would have have been people online pointing out the inherent racism of the Gardaí by contrasting a case where a white person got a €25 euro fine for swinging a carving knife at a guard while a black person gets shot, and other similar stories where the white person got off with a lighter sentence. (I can't find the links now; I'll try dig one or two up). What they didn't mention, of course, is the context of the knife swinging - was he ****ed drunk and ultimately harmless for example? That would obviously be a different case to an active lunge with apparent intent to cause harm, as appears to have been the case here.

So there's misrepresentations on both sides, and it's not reasonable to just single out one side's.

Meanwhile, the Indo today (https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/george-nkencho-family-gardai-opened-fire-even-though-they-knew-people-were-inside-the-house-39936928.html) ran with the headline "George Nkencho family: ‘Gardaí opened fire even though they knew people were inside the house". What is the relevance of that in the context of Nkencho lunging at a guard with a kitchen knife? And why post a picture of the guy as a kid - are we to take from it that this is the kind of person who couldn't possibly have lunged at a garda with a knife/assaulted a shop assistant and sent him to hospital?

I can understand the family being upset - even if the guy was a knacker, it still has to be traumatic watching family get killed like that. Probably some of the comments - the brother's threat to the guard for example - have to be taken in the context of an emotional time and aren't really meant.

I agree with Charlie Darwin that we need to hear why the community (whatever community that is - the "black community" is way too broad a term) are angry - and yet I think it's very pertinent to highlight they've had plenty of chances to explain it or why they're protesting, and no-one has come close to doing so.

And probably the biggest concern is the way it's been reported in the media to be honest. It's very imbalanced.

The upshot I guess is that apart from the few loons who jumped on the bandwagon early, the political reaction in general seems to be to let it all quieten down and hope it gets forgotten about. That's probably the best for now - to come out and say "Shut the **** up would ye; where's the racism?" would be, while factually correct, a bit incendiary.

But how to have it so that if something similar happens again in the future, people don't start shouting "RACIST" is a bigger question, and one that's not easy to solve.

[pineapple stu]

I'm not sure any reasonably minded person believes that Black people can't own land. I don't know what posting a video like that does to service the debate over this mans death tbh.
I actually answered this in the post in question...

[Charlie Darwin]

No, I can't agree with that.

This is a societal issue, and any discussion shouldn't cut out a (large) section of society, otherwise you have potential for a clear imbalance in the discussion. I am part of society, therefore is absolutely has something to do with me.
I'll rephrase. It's a societal issue but it isn't your place to frame the terms of conversation. Your opinions on mass migration might be sincerely felt but they are, at best, a distraction from what needs to be discussed.

[osarusan]

Quite a detailed piece from the Examiner, which supports some earlier claims while disputing others.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-40201541.html?type=amp

[NeverFeltBetter]

Decent piece on Primetime on the story last night too. Point was made that recommendations for crisis intervention personnel - that is, people trained specifically to attempt to diffuse situations involving those with possible/suspected mental health issues non-violently - to respond to such events with ASU were made as far back as 2009, but never implemented. An investigation into this shooting might make that reality.

[pineapple stu]

I'll rephrase. It's a societal issue but it isn't your place to frame the terms of conversation. Your opinions on mass migration might be sincerely felt but they are, at best, a distraction from what needs to be discussed.
Fine, leave it out so.

Your original comment was -


I don't see very much discussion of why black people in Ireland are upset and why it might, to some extent, be a reaction that's not solely based on the exact circumstances of what happened yesterday.
We've had plenty of discussion from black people* about the matter in the past week or so and none have even tried to justify the reaction - the protests, the racism, the suggestions of institutional racism, the bandwagoning from politicians.

Like osarusan, I was happy to be cynical of the mental angle at the start. That's now coming to the fore lately. Is it correct? I don't know obviously; none of us really do. But if it's the case that the Gardaí shot dead someone who was genuinely having a "mental health crisis" (and I don't know what that phrase means), then surely any question of racism has to go out the window.

The problem I have still is that there's a couple of holes too many in all this, particularly around the loving and caring brother/son who was the subject of a restraining order from the family home. Nkencho's friend's suggestion that he developed mental health issues because of all the racism and inequality he saw in Ireland - I don't buy that at all either, albeit that I could give the guy the benefit of the doubt if he was put on the spot by some reporter (and I've already raised my concerns over the media treatment of all this)

One other thing I took from the Prime Time report was the sister saying that "George was carrying his protector", referring to the knife. That's a really worryingly blasé thing to call a kitchen knife...


* - (although the more I think about it, the more that phrase is just meaninglessly vague)

[pineapple stu]

Quite a detailed piece from the Examiner, which supports some earlier claims while disputing others.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-40201541.html?type=amp
That's a really excellent article actually; thanks for sharing it.

[Charlie Darwin]

We've had plenty of discussion from black people* about the matter in the past week or so and none have even tried to justify the reaction - the protests, the racism, the suggestions of institutional racism, the bandwagoning from politicians.
Well the racism is your interpretation - I don't follow your logic on it at all. The protests are obviously a reaction to the perception of injustice and I think any material you've posted in here from black people says that outright.

The suggestion he was having a mental health crisis has been there from the very start and I don't think it's been emphasised any more or any less since. And I don't really see why somebody having a manic episode means racism can't have been a factor either.


The problem I have still is that there's a couple of holes too many in all this, particularly around the loving and caring brother/son who was the subject of a restraining order from the family home.
Well you're factually incorrect there because there was no restraining order from the family home - he was living there. There was a protection order of some measure but if he was living at home it clearly wasn't a physical restraining order.


Nkencho's friend's suggestion that he developed mental health issues because of all the racism and inequality he saw in Ireland - I don't buy that at all either, albeit that I could give the guy the benefit of the doubt if he was put on the spot by some reporter (and I've already raised my concerns over the media treatment of all this)
I haven't specifically heard what his friend said but it's as much speculation on his part in that case as anybody else. What his sister has said clearly is that his mental health had deteriorated significantly in the past couple of years.

I didn't hear what was said about a protector so I won't comment on it.

[pineapple stu]

Well the racism is your interpretation - I don't follow your logic on it at all. The protests are obviously a reaction to the perception of injustice and I think any material you've posted in here from black people says that outright.
People blockading a Spar and shouting "Die, you white *******s" or similar is absolutely, undeniably, very racist. The person in the video saying he can't go to the Gardaí about things because there's no-one there who looks like him is racist.

The problem with "The protests are obviously a reaction to the perception of injustice" is that it doesn't say anything. What injustice? Is it because black people have to work ten times harder to get noticed at football? Is it because black people can't own land or have jobs or because some people in Ireland got reparations from the slave trade 150+ years ago? Is it because the Gardaí is an institutionally racist body? Because they're the black voices I've posted here, and none of it is backed up by, well, anything.


The suggestion he was having a mental health crisis has been there from the very start and I don't think it's been emphasised any more or any less since. And I don't really see why somebody having a manic episode means racism can't have been a factor either.
The mental health matter is clearly now at the front of things. And ok, things change as they get investigated and new facts come to light - but it's not true to say it's not being emphasised any more than before.

And I don't know why you mention racism as a possible factor here. There is as yet nothing whatsoever to suggest the Gardaí were racially motivated, and I think it's unhelpful lobbing the suggestion in to be honest. Do you think sexism was a factor too? Nkencho was a male, after all.


Well you're factually incorrect there because there was no restraining order from the family home - he was living there. There was a protection order of some measure but if he was living at home it clearly wasn't a physical restraining order.
Sorry, he had a protection order, not a restraining order. To get a protection order (https://www.garda.ie/en/crime/domestic-abuse/what-is-a-protection-order-.html), you need to go to Court, probably citing domestic abuse in this case as he's a family member. That's not something you do lightly. Also, he wasn't living in the house at the time -


Nkencho did not live at the family home but had various addresses in Ireland and Britain. Some sources believe he was moving between properties in Ireland while others say he had returned from the UK to spend Christmas with his family. (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gardai-had-to-shoot-george-nkencho-under-public-safety-protocols-wkg5vk6mf)

So that doesn't change the overall point I made - there's too many holes in all this at present.


What his sister has said clearly is that his mental health had deteriorated significantly in the past couple of years.
That of itself doesn't necessarily mean anything. The family are also telling us he was a kind loving person, but that seems not to have been the case.


I didn't hear what was said about a protector so I won't comment on it.
It's on the Prime Time piece on RTÉ, and I also quoted it. Go have a listen. Don't just block it out.

[Charlie Darwin]

People blockading a Spar and shouting "Die, you white *******s" or similar is absolutely, undeniably, very racist. The person in the video saying he can't go to the Gardaí about things because there's no-one there who looks like him is racist.
I haven't seen all of the videos online that the far right are promoting, but I do remember hearing someone shout something like that in one of the videos and it certainly doesn't appear to be a commonly-held view.

It's interesting you bring up the video that you posted earlier because I went back to your post to look for it and it appears that account has now been purged from Twitter along with the other fascists. But from what I remember, somebody saying it's a problem that no police officers look like them is not racist.

To be honest, I think part of your problem is you just think saying anything about people of another race is racist, and you seem to be very sensitive to black people saying things about white people.


The problem with "The protests are obviously a reaction to the perception of injustice" is that it doesn't say anything. What injustice? Is it because black people have to work ten times harder to get noticed at football? Is it because black people can't own land or have jobs or because some people in Ireland got reparations from the slave trade 150+ years ago? Is it because the Gardaí is an institutionally racist body? Because they're the black voices I've posted here, and none of it is backed up by, well, anything.
No, it quite clearly says something: that there is a perception of injustice and this is driving the reaction. You're fully entitled to believe there is no injustice. That doesn't make it irrelevant and it certainly doesn't mean it "doesn't say anything."

You know full well nobody said black people can't own land, or else you just got extremely confused watching videos because nobody said it. And, to be honest, you've posted a couple of black voices but you've taken it upon yourself to subscribe individual importance to them. It's not about what a few people on Twitter say.


The mental health matter is clearly now at the front of things. And ok, things change as they get investigated and new facts come to light - but it's not true to say it's not being emphasised any more than before.
No, it was right there front and centre from the start. If you missed it, you missed it, but it was there and strongly emphasised.


And I don't know why you mention racism as a possible factor here. There is as yet nothing whatsoever to suggest the Gardaí were racially motivated, and I think it's unhelpful lobbing the suggestion in to be honest. Do you think sexism was a factor too? Nkencho was a male, after all.
You need to read your own posts. Go back, you said if it was a mental health crisis then any suggestion of racism had to go out the window.


Sorry, he had a protection order, not a restraining order. To get a protection order (https://www.garda.ie/en/crime/domestic-abuse/what-is-a-protection-order-.html), you need to go to Court, probably citing domestic abuse in this case as he's a family member. That's not something you do lightly. Also, he wasn't living in the house at the time -
That was speculation and other media have since cleared up that he was living in the house.


It's on the Prime Time piece on RTÉ, and I also quoted it. Go have a listen. Don't just block it out.
I didn't block it out, I'm saying I won't comment on something I haven't heard.

[pineapple stu]

I haven't seen all of the videos online that the far right are promoting, but I do remember hearing someone shout something like that in one of the videos and it certainly doesn't appear to be a commonly-held view.

It's interesting you bring up the video that you posted earlier because I went back to your post to look for it and it appears that account has now been purged from Twitter along with the other fascists. But from what I remember, somebody saying it's a problem that no police officers look like them is not racist.
"Far right are promoting", "other fascists" - I'm not sure why you're so keen to attack the poster and not the post. Either the video is legit (and it appears to be) or it's not. This has been covered before.

I didn't say the comments like "Die you white *******s" was a commonly-held view. But it is a view that has been expressed. Saying there's no-one who looks like you to talk to is absolutely racist - you are judging someone on their race and deciding you can't talk to them. So there is racism here.


No, it quite clearly says something: that there is a perception of injustice and this is driving the reaction.
But the point you keep missing is that a "perception" of injustice isn't worth anything if there's no evidence whatsoever for it. You suggested listening to what black people (with the caveat again that it's a misleading phrase) - and I am, and I'm hearing racism, I'm hearing very vague complaints of an unsubstantiated nature, I'm hearing no real reason for protests, no real reason why the reaction to this case is so different to the Mark Hennessy case. Maybe they're there for sure - but if they are, why is it so hard to articulate them?


You know full well nobody said black people can't own land, or else you just got extremely confused watching videos because nobody said it. And, to be honest, you've posted a couple of black voices but you've taken it upon yourself to subscribe individual importance to them. It's not about what a few people on Twitter say.
No, it's in the video - black people won't have equality until they can hold land. Again, a minority view I'm sure, but it's another voice to add to the bundle when I go looking.

I think you've completely misrepresented what I've tried to do by quoting black voices (objection to the phrase taken as read by now). I've taken a variety and considered what each has to say about the reason behind the protests and the reaction. Not one has any valid reason as far as I can see. Not one. I'm more than happy to hear other voices - the majority in fairness probably recognise this case for what it is - but in the absence of any voices corroborating your view that there is injustice there which is making them this angry, it's not a view that logically can be subscribed to.


You need to read your own posts. Go back, you said if it was a mental health crisis then any suggestion of racism had to go out the window.
Yes - so why are you still bringing racism into it? If Nkencho was shot because he had a "mental health crisis" - and again, I don't know what that term means - while brandishing a kitchen knife, then where's the racism?

Do you think there was racism at play in the shooting?


That was speculation and other media have since cleared up that he was living in the house.
What other media? Genuinely interested here. As it stands, your quote can't trump the Sunday Times report (which was one of the earliest reports to show some proper reporting, raising the protection order issue first, for example)

[pineapple stu]

The Indo this weekend had a small supplement on race in Ireland this weekend as a result of this case actually. The main article (https://www.independent.ie/life/there-are-no-winners-here-a-man-has-died-on-our-screens-in-a-tragic-way-its-horrible-for-georges-family-its-horrible-for-the-gardai-and-its-horrible-for-the-people-who-were-attacked-39938798.html) started off by referencing the George Floyd case, even though really it has no similarities with the Nkencho case other than the Christian name and skin colour of the victim. There's then a few phrases in it which are I think at best unhelpful.


After a difficult year, clear footage of a black man being shot by a police force was understandably traumatising for the black Irish community.
This just racialises an unfortunate case which ultimately seems to have nothing to do with race. Why not say "clear footage of a man being shot by a police force he was trying to attack with a kitchen knife, having been asked time and again to put the weapon down"? Why is it relevant to bring the guy's race into it? And again, we have that too-vague phrase "black Irish community", as if all blacks are the same.


But if Nkencho’s race had not been a factor in his death, racism very quickly played a major role in the public response to it. [...] "Media coverage called him a thug, people were spreading posts incorrectly claiming he had dozens of previous convictions, that he had attacked his girlfriend, that he had a machete"
A person who assaults a shop manager and sends him to hospital, then takes out a kitchen knife he happened to have on him and threatens the public and the Gardaí with it, can absolutely be called is a thug.

But social media is an equal-opportunities ****-stirrer - that's well known. It's a cesspit in general. Why would someone believe a rumour that Nkencho had dozens of convictions? Probably (a) because he went to a shop with a kitchen knife, put the manager in hospital and threatened the public and the Gardaí with the knife, and (b) because there's an unfortunate number of crimes in this country which do involve people with multiple convictions. Were they believed because Nkencho was black? I'm sure some believed them for that reason, but the former two reasons have to be far more likely.

The other two claims are incorrect, albeit in the "no smoke without fire" category (he was carrying a large knife, and had a protection order from his own family). But if you want to complain about the machete rumour (and it's a legitimate complaint), then you have to reference the counter-comments which spread saying it was a butter knife.


Bankole says that it’s “unfortunate” that the job of educating white Irish people about racism has fallen to black Irish people, but said it isn’t reasonable to expect unconscious bias or even ignorance about racism to have been unravelled in the months since George Floyd’s death. But, he added that white people have a responsibility to want to learn.
This is a really patronising comment, particularly in the context of the material omissions and the bias in some of the comments above.

There's then a load of stuff on Direct Provision - "the epitome of institutional racism in Ireland" - which is outside the scope of this thread really.

The concern I'd have is that this continual racialising of the case will just lead to further protests when GSOC ultimately give their findings - either the Gardaí acted correctly or they didn't, but both will lead to protests about racism even though there's as yet no evidence racism played any part in this. It's just unhelpfully divisive.



For me, one question which does remain open at the moment is the one in the Examiner about the fifth shot fired. The first four were fired quickly, which is probably fair enough because in real life, one shot to the torso alone probably won't stop someone, and you can't wait after each shot to check if the guy is or isn't coming at someone with a knife still. The fifth shot was a couple of seconds later. Was it the shot which ultimately killed Nkencho? Was the shot justified?

The guy's race and the mental health crisis and even where he was living at the time are all side-shows - you can't attack the Gardaí with a kitchen knife.

Other than that, the difference in how this case has been reported compared to the Mark Hennessy case (the previous Garda shooting) needs a bit of analysis. You wonder what the shop keeper who was assaulted and the people who were threatened with a kitchen knife are making of all this.

[Charlie Darwin]

"Far right are promoting", "other fascists" - I'm not sure why you're so keen to attack the poster and not the post.
Are you asking why I'm so keen to attack the far right?


Either the video is legit (and it appears to be) or it's not. This has been covered before.
I don't think anyone suggested it wasn't.


I didn't say the comments like "Die you white *******s" was a commonly-held view. But it is a view that has been expressed. Saying there's no-one who looks like you to talk to is absolutely racist - you are judging someone on their race and deciding you can't talk to them. So there is racism here.
I didn't hear anybody say they couldn't talk to anybody who doesn't look like them. What they said was they don't see anybody who looks like them in the Gardaí and you can imagine why that might affect how comfortable they are interacting with them. If you think that's racist then you have a lot to learn about what it's like for people who aren't the majority like us.


But the point you keep missing is that a "perception" of injustice isn't worth anything if there's no evidence whatsoever for it.
You're viewing this as a completely intellectual exercise. If people have the perception of injustice and that influences their behaviour and their lives, then yes it absolutely is worth something. They might be completely wrong, but it has affected real life.


You suggested listening to what black people (with the caveat again that it's a misleading phrase) - and I am, and I'm hearing racism, I'm hearing very vague complaints of an unsubstantiated nature, I'm hearing no real reason for protests, no real reason why the reaction to this case is so different to the Mark Hennessy case. Maybe they're there for sure - but if they are, why is it so hard to articulate them?
Why do you need an immediate answer? Why is listening to people without being provided with a vacuum-packed, all-consuming answer not worthwhile in itself? Community relations is not accountancy - you can't point to a spreedsheet and say "well in fact, this is the answer" and then everybody agrees. It's a process.


No, it's in the video - black people won't have equality until they can hold land. Again, a minority view I'm sure, but it's another voice to add to the bundle when I go looking.
"Black people won't have equality until they can hold land" is not "black people can't own land." And I'm not even sure that's what he said but I can't watch the video because the person who posted it is a far-right extremist and got their account deleted.


I think you've completely misrepresented what I've tried to do by quoting black voices (objection to the phrase taken as read by now). I've taken a variety and considered what each has to say about the reason behind the protests and the reaction. Not one has any valid reason as far as I can see. Not one. I'm more than happy to hear other voices - the majority in fairness probably recognise this case for what it is - but in the absence of any voices corroborating your view that there is injustice there which is making them this angry, it's not a view that logically can be subscribed to.
Exactly what variety of black voices have you taken here? Did you actually have a conversation with anyone?


Yes - so why are you still bringing racism into it? If Nkencho was shot because he had a "mental health crisis" - and again, I don't know what that term means - while brandishing a kitchen knife, then where's the racism?
I genuinely don't know why you can't go and find out what a mental health crisis is, especially as it's not that hard to work out. But again, it baffles me that you think somebody who is not acting in their right mind can't be a victim of racism.


Do you think there was racism at play in the shooting?
I don't know. I can't make that conclusion with the small amount of evidence that is out there. And I would say anybody who claims there isn't racism involved is similar.


What other media? Genuinely interested here. As it stands, your quote can't trump the Sunday Times report (which was one of the earliest reports to show some proper reporting, raising the protection order issue first, for example)
Well here's one for a start: https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-40201541.html

[Charlie Darwin]

I have a genuine question for you, Stu. Do you think black people in Ireland have any reason to be upset about what happened?

[passinginterest]

I think this is a very well put together article; https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/george-nkencho-shooting-racial-tensions-in-dublin-s-suburbs-1.4452459

It gives some insight from George's peers, particularly the fact that the racist abuse the football team got was so bad at times they needed plain clothes guards at the games to make sure it didn't get out of hand. Interesting comparison to the reaction to the killing of Toyosi ****tabey, within the same community and how Garda outreach probably helped to mediate it.

Also, points to changes in Garda outreach in the area and how that may have impacted on events this time around. Interesting perspectives from the protesters too, from the view that even if this killing is not about racism, it's worth taking action to hopefully prevent racist killings in the future, or that issues with policing are as much about class as about race.

[pineapple stu]

I have a genuine question for you, Stu. Do you think black people in Ireland have any reason to be upset about what happened?
No. It's not a race issue.

Do you think black people in Ireland have any reason to be upset about what happened? Why/why not?

[pineapple stu]

Are you asking why I'm so keen to attack the far right?
No, I'm asking why you're ignoring what's been said in the the actual video to bring the twitter account (who didn't film or create the video) into it. But well done on Cathy Newman-ing yourself - "So what you're saying is..." followed by something I didn't say at all.


I didn't hear anybody say they couldn't talk to anybody who doesn't look like them. What they said was they don't see anybody who looks like them in the Gardaí and you can imagine why that might affect how comfortable they are interacting with them.
They didn't say they can't talk to anybody who looks like them, they just said there's nobody who looks like them and they can't really talk to them? I mean, that's the same thing, and yes, it is racist.

You go into a police station anywhere in the world and say you don't want to deal with a black policeman because of how he looks and see how far you get.


Exactly what variety of black voices have you taken here? Did you actually have a conversation with anyone?
To be honest Charlie, your line of argument is getting a bit tedious here. You posed the question at the start of this about why black voices (sic) are being ignored in all this. So I've gone out and listened to people actually protesting, people quoted in the media, local community representatives, and the family. None of them have made any particularly valid arguments, and I've given lots of examples of why I think that to be the case. Do you really want me to go to the Ugandan fella in my estate and say "Hey, you've dark skin. What do you think of that dark-skinned person getting shot in another county?"? I'm sure he loves being mistaken for Nigerian all the time - sure all them black people are the same, what?

(Actually, I'm sure he realises this had nothing to do with race, and that if anyone waves a large knife dangerously at the Gardaí having been repeatedly asked to put it down, that they really only have themselves to blame for what happens next)

All you've done is say those voices I've highlighted don't count for some reason. You seem to think that your opinion or experience is ipso facto the only valid one (and you've done this on other topics too) That's not how debating works. If you've something to bring to the table to counter the points I've raised, I'm all ears. But your posts so far have been very silly.

[passinginterest]

No. It's not a race issue.

I'm in Charlie's camp on this one. I don't think we can make a black and white statement that "no it's not a race issue". Ok, by all appearances, it's not an overtly racist killing. The victim is not being racially abused etc. but we can't completely rule out the possibility that there's not a subconscious bias there, most of the US killings that gave rise to BLM were not overtly racist, but it's clear that there's a deep lying cultural racism built into a lot if US policing.

The fact that this killing happened at a time when BLM and racism in general are such high profile issues, has meant that there are inevitably questions about racism in Irish society. We're miles behind the likes of the US and the UK in terms of racial diversity, but incidents like this may well bring to light issues that we can tackle now in order to not hit the massive issues seen in the US the UK and elsewhere.

I don't think we can dictate to the family and friends of George Nkencho that they shouldn't think this is a race issue, or ask questions of the policing of what happened in order to determine if there was any potential errors of judgement, or actions that may not have happened if he wasn't black. I personally don't think it looks like a race issue at this stage, but I think all avenues should be investigated and lessons learned. An if there are failings in community outreach they should also be investigated.

I think the current movement about women in sport is not dissimilar to the point made about black youths not seeing people who look like them in the Guards. It's a pretty valid point that "if you can't see it you can't be it." Out institutions are quite slow at evolving to reflect the diversity of our communities, you can see plenty of examples of the integration of the growing black community into sports etc. but there are far less into policing, politics, teaching etc. Much like the efforts required to address gender balance and encourage diversity there's a need to ensure similar efforts are made with racial diversity. There's no point in pretending we're not a much more racially diverse country now, it's not something that's going to change, so we need to try and learn from mistakes made elsewhere rather than exacerbating tensions.

[pineapple stu]

I've no problems letting the GSOC investigation check if there was a race issue. Obviously we don't know all the facts here, etc, etc - but at present, there is no indication it was a race issue. None. This was someone who went down the shops with a knife, assaulted the shop manager and put him in hospital, threatened others with the knife, ignored the Gardaí who went to deal with the situation, and then lunged at the them with the knife. All of that is being overshadowed by the guy's skin colour. The Gardaí here are almost guilty until proven innocent. That's not rational or helpful.

The other problem I have with the protests - and most of the comments I've quoted here from people who feel there's a protest to be made don't stand up to rational analysis - is that they assume outright that there's a racial bias, and that's not acceptable either; it helps creates a victim complex where can start to see bias against you when nothing's there.

Counting skin colours in high qualification positions like politics as well is unhelpful. You end up going down the same error-prone route as elsewhere by taking skin colour as something all-defining, when it really isn't.

[Eminence Grise]

Is there not more in common here with John Carthy in Abbeylara twenty years ago than anything else? We don't have a trigger-happy police force, but members don't face these situations frequently enough to build up experience of handling them.

[osarusan]

We don't have a trigger-happy police force, but members don't face these situations frequently enough to build up experience of handling them.
This would not surprise me. Even with their training, ARU members would very very rarely be called upon to actually use their weapons. I can imagine a scenario where they used their pepper spray and taser too quickly/at the wrong moment, out of inexperience or nerves or panic, and as a result, they've no weapons left but lethal ones.

But I don't see where police bias against black people comes into play in this incident. Another thing is that these shootings are so incredibly rare here that there's not really even anything to even compare it to in terms of response by Gardai, which is in itself a positive thing.