Shooting of George Nkencho

[Eminence Grise]

FWIW, I saw a guy get tasered 18 months ago:* he went down like he’d been hit by a truck. But this from NPR (https://www.npr.org/2019/06/27/729922975/despite-widespread-use-police-rate-tasers-as-less-effective-than-believed?t=1610489616286) highlights that tasers are not nearly as effective as you’d think – 250 cases in three years where a taser didn’t incapacitate. Misfires, one or both darts getting snagged on clothes, firing from too close or too far, there’s a lot that can go wrong. There’s also some evidence, though this kind of stuff is way outside my understanding, that some psychoses or PTSD can trigger hyper reactions where adrenaline floods the body and makes it appear that the person has abnormal or superhuman strength.

I can’t say any of those happened here, but considering them adds another layer of complexity and makes for a far more nuanced story than simply being a racial incident.



*Fun story: he’d crashed his car, stolen another and been chased by a squad car, until he abandoned the stolen car and fled on foot to six doors down from where Mrs Grise and I had moved in a week earlier. Mum was visiting the house for the first time and opened the front door to leave … to see 20 Guards, many armed, half a dozen vehicles and an apparent psycho slashing himself with a knife. Then the tasering happened.
‘I thought you said this was a quiet neighbourhood,’ she said.
Mind you, she grew up in Moss Side. There's not much that fazes her.

[Charlie Darwin]

No. It's not a race issue.

Do you think black people in Ireland have any reason to be upset about what happened? Why/why not?
I think if they're upset, it's not without reason. That doesn't mean anybody did anything wrong in this case.


No, I'm asking why you're ignoring what's been said in the the actual video to bring the twitter account (who didn't film or create the video) into it. But well done on Cathy Newman-ing yourself - "So what you're saying is..." followed by something I didn't say at all.
Jesus Christ, Stu. It was posted from a racist account. I'm not accusing you of being one but it's at least interesting enough to point out.


They didn't say they can't talk to anybody who looks like them, they just said there's nobody who looks like them and they can't really talk to them? I mean, that's the same thing, and yes, it is racist.
Again, the video is gone so I can't watch it again, but I mean I don't think it'd be beyond the bounds of possibility that the guy doesn't feel comfortable talking about certain things to white cops. IF that's racist to you, fair enough.


You go into a police station anywhere in the world and say you don't want to deal with a black policeman because of how he looks and see how far you get.
If you think those examples are equivalent, fine.


To be honest Charlie, your line of argument is getting a bit tedious here. You posed the question at the start of this about why black voices (sic) are being ignored in all this. So I've gone out and listened to people actually protesting, people quoted in the media, local community representatives, and the family. None of them have made any particularly valid arguments, and I've given lots of examples of why I think that to be the case. Do you really want me to go to the Ugandan fella in my estate and say "Hey, you've dark skin. What do you think of that dark-skinned person getting shot in another county?"? I'm sure he loves being mistaken for Nigerian all the time - sure all them black people are the same, what?
No, you're being glib now and it's unbecoming. There's no shortage of black experiences out there, abroad as well as in Ireland, that can be sought out if you like. But, look, you've considered the ones you have come across and decided they're not valid, so fair enough.


All you've done is say those voices I've highlighted don't count for some reason. You seem to think that your opinion or experience is ipso facto the only valid one (and you've done this on other topics too) That's not how debating works. If you've something to bring to the table to counter the points I've raised, I'm all ears. But your posts so far have been very silly.
I didn't say a single voice didn't count. And I absolutely don't think my opinion or experience is the one that counts here. In fact, it's the opposite of the one I'm making.

[pineapple stu]

Jesus Christ, Stu. It was posted from a racist account. I'm not accusing you of being one but it's at least interesting enough to point out.
Again - who cares what account it was posted from? It either happened or it didn't. The account holder didn't create the video or edit it.


I think if they're upset, it's not without reason. That doesn't mean anybody did anything wrong in this case.

There's no shortage of black experiences out there, abroad as well as in Ireland, that can be sought out if you like. But, look, you've considered the ones you have come across and decided they're not valid, so fair enough.
Ah here - there's nothing whatsoever in those arguments. You raised the point at the start as to why black voices (sic) were being ignored. I've highlighted lots of them, and concerns with what they're saying. You're just sitting there saying "No, that doesn't count", while offering literally nothing to back up your view point.

Have you actually got a point or haven't you?

[tetsujin1979]

Again - who cares what account it was posted from? It either happened or it didn't. The account holder didn't create the video or edit it.I don't think anyone is saying the account did create it, or edit it, but they chose to share it online because it supported their opinion.

[Charlie Darwin]

Again - who cares what account it was posted from? It either happened or it didn't. The account holder didn't create the video or edit it.



Ah here - there's nothing whatsoever in those arguments. You raised the point at the start as to why black voices (sic) were being ignored. I've highlighted lots of them, and concerns with what they're saying. You're just sitting there saying "No, that doesn't count", while offering literally nothing to back up your view point.

Have you actually got a point or haven't you?
Stu, my post you reference literally has me saying I am not saying anybody's view doesn't count. I don't know where you're getting this from.

[pineapple stu]

I don't think anyone is saying the account did create it, or edit it, but they chose to share it online because it supported their opinion.
It.

Doesn't.

Matter.

Is the video real or not?

Pretty much every video on social media has been shared by some nutjob. It doesn't invalidate the video.

[tetsujin1979]

It really does. Before their account was closed, that majority of content shared by that user was clearly racist, so it's not unreasonable to come to the conclusion that the video was shared by them because it was also fit in with their views, and was racist.

[pineapple stu]

Stu, my post you reference literally has me saying I am not saying anybody's view doesn't count. I don't know where you're getting this from.
You've dismissed the protester's voice because (bizarrely) of someone who shared the video on social media.

You've dismissed the criticisms of the protesters/family members/activists/community leaders' comments by just "Exactly what variety of black voices have you taken here? Did you actually have a conversation with anyone?"

You were the one who suggested black voices (sic) were being ignored, and yet when I highlight them, you're happy to ignore them. You are quite clearly saying that these voices don't count.

[pineapple stu]

It really does. Before their account was closed, that majority of content shared by that user was clearly racist, so it's not unreasonable to come to the conclusion that the video was shared by them because it was also fit in with their views, and was racist.
If the video is real, then it doesn't matter if Donald Trump himself shared the video. It's still a black protester in the aftermath of this death making racist comments about how he can't go to the Gardaí because none of them look like him, or spouting nonsense about 100 Irish people getting reparations for losing their slaves 170 years ago, and other irrelevancies.

It's still a black person (sic) justifying their protests with comments that simply don't stack up to any sort of rational thought. So it is entirely reasonable to introduce that video into a discussion as to whether black people's grievances are legitimate. Because his clearly aren't. (And others' aren't either)

[osarusan]

It really does. Before their account was closed, that majority of content shared by that user was clearly racist, so it's not unreasonable to come to the conclusion that the video was shared by them because it was also fit in with their views, and was racist.

This doesn't even mean anything tbh. The idea that it can be dismissed simply because of who shared it, or their motivation for sharing it, is meaningless, and that's coming from somebody who agrees that orlared is/was utter filth.

The video contains a 'black voice' (to use the terminology being used here). It's not the only one, and I don't think they represent more than a handful of loons/sh!tstirrers/opportunists, but it's a voice nonetheless.

I wouldn't necessarily agree that the guy saying none of the Gardai look like him is making a racist comment though. I think that's a very literal interpretation of it, when what he really means is that as a minority, he doesn't feel that he can be sure he will get a fair deal from members of the majority. It's the same sentiment you might hear from a Palestinian when visiting an Israeli police station, or a gay man trying to report a homophobic attack in some deeply religious community.

The real question is whether there is any merit to that sentiment. It may well be the case that black people, or any other minority, face discrimination by the police. But there needs to be evidence presented to that effect, and even then, there needs to be evidence presented that the shooting of Nkencho was as a result of that discrimination.

Claiming it doesn't make it so, and as I've said from the very start, I think this is a very unsuitable incident to use to try and advance the argument that this discrimination does exist.

[Charlie Darwin]

You've dismissed the protester's voice because (bizarrely) of someone who shared the video on social media.

You've dismissed the criticisms of the protesters/family members/activists/community leaders' comments by just "Exactly what variety of black voices have you taken here? Did you actually have a conversation with anyone?"

You were the one who suggested black voices (sic) were being ignored, and yet when I highlight them, you're happy to ignore them. You are quite clearly saying that these voices don't count.
No, I think the protestor's voice is perfectly valid and, in fact, I appear to have put more effort into understanding it than you have.

The only other comment I've made about that video, apart from the racist source, is that he doesn't actually say what you think he said.

[pineapple stu]

It may well be the case that black people, or any other minority, face discrimination by the police. But there needs to be evidence presented to that effect, and even then, there needs to be evidence presented that the shooting of Nkencho was as a result of that discrimination.
This is pretty much my exact point. Charlie has said that "I don't see very much discussion of why black people in Ireland are upset and why it might, to some extent, be a reaction that's not solely based on the exact circumstances of what happened yesterday", so I've taken various views of black people being articulated across the media. None has (in my view) given any legitimate reason as to why they are upset, or why Nkencho's death is worth protesting.

I agree that the guy in the video is quite probably a minority voice - though he wasn't a lone voice; he had a dozen or more people around him listening and in agreement with him - but it's about adding up all the views expressed to try get an overall impression. In that context, this voice is definitely part of the bigger picture, along with "Black people have to try ten times harder at football to be noticed" (doesn't stack up), the disorder at the Spar and the "Die you white *******" shouts (knackers), the suggestion Nkencho "wouldn't hurt a fly" (but his family had a protection order against him), the claims it's racist to assume Nkencho is a thug (no it's not) or to say he had a machete on social media (but no complaints about those who said on social media it was just a butter knife), etc, etc. So yeah, who shared a video is irrelevant in that context.

I've looked for voices giving legitimate grounds for protest too, but there aren't any. That's not to say they're not out there - but if they are, how hard is to come out and express them?

And I've said in thread that most black people probably recognise that this was a case of a guy attacking the Gardaí with a knife, which you just can't do.

All this, to me, means that the protests - which kind of assume the Gardaí are guilty until proven innocent - are groundless and actively unhelpful, especially in the case where all the evidence (pending the GSOC enquiry of course) is that there was a potential threat to the life of the Gardaí. So for me, the answer to the question "Do you think black people in Ireland have any reason to be upset about what happened?" is "No".

And I feel the worst in all this are the media and politicians jumping on the BLM bandwagon and the consequent bias in reporting, which also simply isn't helpful. It can create a perception of racial bias when it isn't there.


It's the same sentiment you might hear from a Palestinian when visiting an Israeli police station, or a gay man trying to report a homophobic attack in some deeply religious community.
While I see where you're coming from, do you not think it's a teensy bit of a stretch to compare the treatment of black people by officialdom in Ireland with that of Palestinians by Israelis or gays in, say, conservative Muslim countries? (Even in the context that I know it's not you saying it; you're just suggesting that may be the protester's view)

[osarusan]

While I see where you're coming from, do you not think it's a teensy bit of a stretch to compare the treatment of black people by officialdom in Ireland with that of Palestinians by Israelis or gays in, say, conservative Muslim countries?

I think it's a real stretch to compare the two.

In the examples I gave, we all know there is clear evidence of a history of discrimination going on there. In Ireland, I don't think we have anywhere near the same evidence, if we even have much at all.

So while he might be expressing the same sentiments, we need to see the evidence to see whether what he was saying has merit.

The main point I was making is that despite how it was phrased, I wouldn't consider it racism, rather a claim that he doesn't trust the authorities to treat him fairly.

[Charlie Darwin]

https://twitter.com/RTEOne/status/1350569015249395712

[Charlie Darwin]

Surprised it hasn't been mentioned already but a postmortem carried out on behalf of his family contradicted the state autopsy and said he was shot six times - twice in the back: https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/george-nkencho-shot-twice-back-23375647 (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/independent-george-nkencho-postmortem-reaches-some-different-findings-family-says-1.4458376)

[NeverFeltBetter]

I see a lot of people upset at the idea of him being shot in the back, but is it that material though? The point seems to be that he was considered a danger to the lives of Gardai present. It's likely the decision to pull the trigger (or rather, triggers) was a split second thing. I suppose we can talk about coordination of fire in terms of training - if he was shot in the front and the back, the likelihood of someone else getting hit would have been much higher, and that's a concern in terms of Garda ability to use firearms - but I think it's harsh to judge such decisions from weeks away.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, I agree with that. If he was trying to open the front door bearing a large kitchen knife for example, the Gardaí would hardly wait for him to turn around before shooting (given that all other attempts to either disarm or reason with him had failed)

Is the six shots (rather than five) really significant either? A bullet wound is rarely instantly fatal; you can do a lot of damage after you've been shot a couple of times. (Technically, while the report says he was shot five times in the body and once in the arm, is there anything to indicate the shot in the arm didn't then follow through to the body? So six wounds rather than six shots?)

[osarusan]

He was shot in the back as he attempted to enter the house with people inside. (One/some of those people had taken out an order of protection against him, but it's not clear if police at the scene knew that). I guess that stopping him from entering the house was the final line the police drew in just how far this could go without them firing.

The state autopsy also said six shots/wounds, so it didn't contradict it either.

Whether all the shots were necessary is something that will eventually come out in a report. There was 1 shot that was fired about 1 or 2 seconds after the first burst of shots. It's clear that Nnkencho had fallen to the ground/his knees at that point, as he went out of sight of the camera filming the incident. Whether he still represented an immediate threat that needed a further shot will be investigated I'm sure.

Worth noting that when John Carthy was shot in 2000, he was first shot in the legs as he advanced towards Gardai, but it had little impact on him even a minute afterwards, and the ERU eventually had to shoot him in the torso.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I think most people realise that the idea of shooting someone in the arm or leg to incapacitate them is pretty far from standard practice in such situations because, as you say, it won't always incapacitate, and the chance you might miss is much, much higher.

Regards the final shot, it's a very valid question to ask. Again, it may point to inexperience with the use of firearms, and maybe some frayed nerves.

[pineapple stu]

The final shot is a valid question alright, though I don't think the news that there was six shots instead of five (if indeed that is what the autopsy is saying) really changes anything in that regard.

[osarusan]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/george-nkencho-needed-help-not-bullets-his-sister-says-1.4482218


George Nkencho, who was shot dead by gardaí in December, “needed help, not bullets”, his sister Gloria Nkencho has said, adding she believed class was a factor in his being shot dead rather than race.

She insisted only a small minority of people were trying to create division on race grounds arising from her brother’s death.

And she urged people not to be influenced by that “small percentage in society trying to turn this into a major race thing, and trying to cause a war” involving “black against white”.

The family, and in particular the brother, said some pretty silly things in the aftermath. Good to see they are rowing back a bit, albeit I'm not convinced 'class' was much of a factor either.

[weldoninhio]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/george-nkencho-needed-help-not-bullets-his-sister-says-1.4482218



The family, and in particular the brother, said some pretty silly things in the aftermath. Good to see they are rowing back a bit, albeit I'm not convinced 'class' was much of a factor either.

They got a nice new house out of it and I'm sure they'll get compo too

[osarusan]

https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0424/1445461-garda-george-nkencho/


The Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) has directed no prosecution following an investigation into the fatal shooting of a man by a garda in Dublin three-and-a-half years ago

Good news imo, though there could hardly have been any other outcome. It took its time to arrive, but was thorough I suppose.

[seanfhear]

https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0424/1445461-garda-george-nkencho/


Good news imo, though there could hardly have been any other outcome. It took its time to arrive, but was thorough I suppose.
Yes ~ It's not as if Guards are going to allow themselves to be murdered ~ Even if there is a small minority that seems to expect Guards to allow themselves to be murdered !

[tetsujin1979]

Yes ~ It's not as if Guards are going to allow themselves to be murdered ~ Even if there is a small minority that seems to expect Guards to allow themselves to be murdered !
I, for one, would like to see evidence of this expectation

[seanfhear]

I, for one, would like to see evidence of this expectation
You just need to examine the reaction from a minority ( admittedly a small minority ) when these types of incidents occur ~ ~ From the reaction of that small minority = = It's as if they expect Guards to allow themselves to be killed.

I for one ~ ~ Don't expect guards to allow themselves to be killed / or even injured / badly injured ~ ~ A Guard has the same right as everybody else to protect themselves.

[tetsujin1979]

none of that is evidence.

[seanfhear]

none of that is evidence.If you refuse to see the demonstrations after this incident and the Politicians that tried to make political capital out of it ~ ~ Then I cannot help you.

There are those that try to make political capital out of these types of incidents while Not waiting for the proper inquiries.

Happens in Ireland and around the world ~ ~ There is none so blind as those that do Not want to see.

[tetsujin1979]

I'm happy to look, you haven't given me anything to look at.

[dahamsta]

@seanfhear, you were asked for evidence. If you don't know what evidence is, don't post here. End of story.

You've been warned about this multiple times, this is your final warning. If you do it again, you'll be banned permanently from this subforum.

[seanfhear]

Just a small sample.

https://peoplesdispatch.org/2021/01/15/protests-continue-in-ireland-following-murder-of-george-nkencho-by-police/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fQpJ3XATGQ

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/protests-continue-over-shooting-of-george-nkencho/39929633.html

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/hundreds-gather-outside-garda-station-23244013

[seanfhear]

Some more.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/george-nkencho-protest-blanchardstown-garda-19543933

I also remember the brother of George Nhencho making extremely violent threats against the Gardaí = = Was he ever charged with threatening to kill Guards ? !

[tetsujin1979]

At no point in any of those does anyone say they expect gardai to allow themselves to be murdered

[seanfhear]

At no point in any of those does anyone say they expect gardai to allow themselves to be murdered
That is a question of interpretation ~ ~ By the way some people ( ok, a small minority ) react to these situations ~ ~ The only conclusion that can be made is that they expect Guards to allow themselves to be, assaulted / injured / seriously injured / even murdered ~ ~ Other wise these small minorities would not be reacting in the way that they do.

[seanfhear]

Even today a Politician is trying to make political capital out of this.

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2024/0425/1445626-dail-suspension/

[tetsujin1979]

That is a question of interpretation ~ ~ By the way some people ( ok, a small minority ) react to these situations ~ ~ The only conclusion that can be made is that they expect Guards to allow themselves to be, assaulted / injured / seriously injured / even murdered ~ ~ Other wise these small minorities would not be reacting in the way that they do.
so it's your interpretation of the intentions of their protest.

[seanfhear]

so it's your interpretation of the intentions of their protest.Life is about about interpretations ~ ~ Even today in the Dáil a politicians is trying to make Political capital out of this wholly justified shooting ~ ~ Shame on him and the others that have done, and do the same.

[osarusan]

Did people say (and are they still saying) some unwise or opportunistic things? Absolutely.

Was there anything that they said that would lead people to the 'only conclusion is that they expect Guards to allow themselves to be murdered'? Absolutely not.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, I'm not really sure what the exact point here is. I'm uncomfortable that people had marches about this at the time but there was nothing similar when Mark Hennessy was shot.

But I think those people are just thoughtlessly engaging in identity politics and don't actively think Gardaí should allow themselves be murdered. (I'm not sure they actively think much at all, if I'm allowed be hyper-cynical)

[seanfhear]

Either Guards are allowed to protect themselves in these situations, or they let a mad-man do as he will with a knife.

Sometimes, dangerous / mad people, have to be neutralised ~ ~ With what-ever it takes to do that.

Other-wise ~ What is the point of having Guards involved in such situations ? !

[osarusan]

Either Guards are allowed to protect themselves in these situations, or they let a mad-man do as he will with a knife.

Sometimes, dangerous / mad people, have to be neutralised ~ ~ With what-ever it takes to do that.

Other-wise ~ What is the point of having Guards involved in such situations ? !

No disagreement there...but who are you arguing against?

Nobody in the links you shared above has said that the police shouldn't be allowed to neutralise dangerous threats, or that the police shouldn't be allowed to protect themselves, or that they should have to let a mad-man do as he will with a kinfe.

So who are you arguing with?

[seanfhear]

No disagreement there...but who are you arguing against?

Nobody in the links you shared above has said that the police shouldn't be allowed to neutralise dangerous threats, or that the police shouldn't be allowed to protect themselves, or that they should have to let a mad-man do as he will with a kinfe.

So who are you arguing with?What do you think Mick Barry is doing here ( and others like him )

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2024/0425/1445626-dail-suspension/

[osarusan]

What do you think Mick Barry is doing here ( and others like him )

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2024/0425/1445626-dail-suspension/

There's no direct quotes in that link, but in other media, it's reported that he said:




“George Nkencho was shot dead by an armed guard on December 30th 2020.

“He was shot five times, twice in the back.

“Yesterday we learned how the garda who shot him will not now stand trial.

“George’s grieving mother, his sisters and brothers, a working-class migrant family, will now have to fight a long and hard battle for justice, even for basic information, like so many others have had to do in the past.”

...

“On Tuesday, the State apologised to the Stardust families, the house rose in standing ovation and everybody said ‘never again’.

“Yet, just one day later, the State appears to many to be doing it all over again.”

He is clearly making stupid and politically opportunistic remarks (though I'm not really sure what this is an opportunity for). He appears to be suggesting that this is potentially an unlawful killing, despite the DPP report. Mainly, he seems to want the GSOC report to be published/given to the Nkencho family, which I'd agree with, and which I think will happen.

But again, there's nothing in those quotes that indicates that Barry thinks that the police should allow themselves to be murdered, or shouldn't be allowed to neutralise dangerous threats, or that the police shouldn't be allowed to protect themselves, or that they should have to let a mad-man do as he will with a knife.

If you something in those quotes that indicates Barry does believe any of those things, can you please point out the specific quote/quotes?

[seanfhear]

There's no direct quotes in that link, but in other media, it's reported that he said:



He is clearly making stupid and politically opportunistic remarks (though I'm not really sure what this is an opportunity for). He appears to be suggesting that this is potentially an unlawful killing, despite the DPP report. Mainly, he seems to want the GSOC report to be published/given to the Nkencho family, which I'd agree with, and which I think will happen.

But again, there's nothing in those quotes that indicates that Barry thinks that the police should allow themselves to be murdered, or shouldn't be allowed to neutralise dangerous threats, or that the police shouldn't be allowed to protect themselves, or that they should have to let a mad-man do as he will with a knife.

If you something in those quotes that indicates Barry does believe any of those things, can you please point out the specific quote/quotes?If you cannot accept that there are circumstances where a, mad-man / mad-people, have to be neutralised by what ever means necessary then you are not living in reality ~ ~ This was a clear cut case ~ It could Not be any clearer but you still have, political opportunists / other opportunists, trying to make capital out of this situation.

If the Guards cannot neutralise somebody in this situation, then there is no point having the Guards involved in this type of situation ~ ~ Should we just go back to Not having Guards ?

Funny thing is ~ ~ These People that are always out to go after the Guards would be the first ones to be screaming ~ Call the Guards, Call the Guards, Call the Guards, at the first sign of a bit of aggro / or a nutter with a knife.

When are we going to get back to living in the real world = = Sometimes nutters with knives / guns have to be taken out, and the Guards should be thanked for doing an excellent job.

[pineapple stu]

But in fairness, osarusan's post was well-thought out and asked for any specific comment that indicated Barry (or anyone) wanted Gardaí to be murdered, and you've ignored that part.

He might be stupid or simply angling for the woke vote, but I don't think there's anywhere he thinks Gardaí should be murdered

[seanfhear]

But in fairness, osarusan's post was well-thought out and asked for any specific comment that indicated Barry (or anyone) wanted Gardaí to be murdered, and you've ignored that part.

He might be stupid or simply angling for the woke vote, but I don't think there's anywhere he thinks Gardaí should be murdered
Some of these, politicians / other opportunists, never admit that there are sometimes clear cut circumstances where mad-people have to be neutralised by what-ever means necessary ( as in this clear-cut case ) = = If you do not accept that, then it has to follow on that they expect Guards to allow themselves to be, assaulted / seriously injured / murdered ~ or ~ That mad-people should just be let do as they please with, knives / guns, to murder and mayhem ! !

You either have a Garda force that is allowed to protect themselves and the public or you do not ! !

This was a clear-cut case but not for those that do Not live in the real world = = They'd soon want George Nkencho neutralised if they and their family was about to be murdered by George Nkencho ! !