WUFC have difficulty paying players

[fosterdollar]

From breakingnews.ie, written in Enevnig Hreald style.

Players have been paid: Waterford United
10/06/2005 - 12:23:36

Waterford United player-manager Alan Reynolds has denied reports that his players have not been paid.

It was thought that the club was struggling to come up with the players' wages but Reynolds has dismissed the reports. “There are always cash flow problems, but everyone has been paid,” he said.

The sale of Daryl Murphy to Sunderland earned the club close to €150,000, butt here are various creditors needing to be paid off.

Reynolds admitted that there is unlikely to be any cash available for transfers.

“I have to get over that and wee what happens when we get to the transfer window,” he said.

[bigmac]

don't know where these reports came from - think it's because of the recent run of bad performances. As far as I know everyone has been paid and there's no more of a cash crisis than usual. I'd guess that most teams are in the same boat as regards cash reserves.

[noby]

WUFC have difficulty scoring goals, but you don't see that in breakingnews.ie

[De Town]

WUFC have difficulty scoring goals, but you don't see that in breakingnews.ie
Difficulty keeping them out aswell ;)

[Anto McC]

Alan Reynolds has been quoted as saying everyone was paid so why is the thread titled "WUFC have difficulty paying players"

[fosterdollar]

He never said they had no difficulty in doing it. ;)

[Anto McC]

He never said they had no difficulty in doing it. ;)

Who hasn't

[fosterdollar]

Tell me about it

[blue til i die]

if the manager says that the players have been payed, then they have been payed, not that they deserve it after their recent performances!!!

[mypost]

Difficulty keeping them out aswell ;)

Except against Rovers!! :rolleyes: :mad:

Waterford have just played 3 home games. That should ease worries about players not getting paid.

[Roo69]

Just got one of them eL texts:

Reports indicate that Crisi hit Waterford could be forced to make their entire squad, inc. Alan Reynolds available for transfer as investment runs dry.

[blue til i die]

ye, i read it in the Daily mirror yesterday. They said we have 2 weeks to get some investers or all of the players will be for sale with reasonable offers being accepted.

[Poor Student]

Just got one of them eL texts:

Reports indicate that Crisi hit Waterford could be forced to make their entire squad, inc. Alan Reynolds available for transfer as investment runs dry.

How can a player/manager be up for sale? :confused:

[De Town]

ye, i read it in the Daily mirror yesterday. They said we have 2 weeks to get some investers or all of the players will be for sale with reasonable offers being accepted.
There is only 1 player I would like off ye and thats Willie Bruton.

[sadloserkid]

ye, i read it in the Daily mirror yesterday. They said we have 2 weeks to get some investers or all of the players will be for sale with reasonable offers being accepted.

Colm Heffernan and Paddy Purcell come on home! Steve Yelverton can come too. :)

[Poor Student]

From the clubs official site:
Close Shave for the Blues
16 June 2005

Waterford United is to benefit from a unique fundraising effort where two dedicated fans will have their heads shaved in order to raise much needed funds for the Blues.

Eoghan Sinnott and Conor Nolan will lose their locks at half time during the Blues' next home game against champions Shelbourne on Friday June 24th.

Director Martin Colbert has appealed to the people of Waterford to get behind the venture and to support the Blues at what is a difficult time for the club.

"I don't want to gloss over the fact that the club is in trouble," said Colbert. "We are going through a bad time both on and off the pitch and money is running out. We need the support of the town or there will not be senior football here. I would appeal to every sports fan to get behind the Blues over the next few weeks. Sponsor the head shave and buy a ticket for the game against Shelbourne. Even if you can't go, buy a ground ticket and support the club."

[pete]

How have Waterford got in this situation? Their squad doesn't look too expensive as all best & i assume highest earners have left.

I think i heard that former Chairman getting all thr cash from Daryl Murphy sale. How is that possible? Seems liem a conflict of interest for a chairman personally to loan money to himself as chairman of the club...

:confused:

[Slash/ED]

How have Waterford got in this situation? Their squad doesn't look too expensive as all best & i assume highest earners have left.


Exactly, how were they let get into this mess? There must have been some absolutley woeful financial mismanagement going on over there as the squad really shouldn't be that expensive.

[jorge]

Ithought the chairman resigned so why does he get the money.

[Schumi]

Think he'd lent money to the club so was getting it back.

[gael353]

Was told recently that waterfords weekly wage bill is 9K. and as SLK said above Paddy Purcell, Colm Heffernan are indeed welcome home as would be Steve Yelverton to his rightfull place.

[pineapple stu]

Think he'd lent money to the club so was getting it back.
If the club's in trouble (certainly if it goes into administration), then that's possibly illegal - all creditors have to be treated equally, so you can't realise your club's in trouble, pay back everything you're owed and then you lose nothing a couple of months later when you're paying creditors 20p in the £.


Was told recently that Waterford's weekly wage bill is 9K.
Wouldn't be surprised. I think E500 is a fairly average weekly wage, from what I've heard. Crowds of 1,300 or so can't sustain that.

This hardly came on overnight though. Even if the debt wasn't there at the start of the season, budgets, etc. would have to have been in place. Another fudge in the licencing process?

To be honest, I'm delighted they're in trouble. Nothing against Waterford, but clubs can't trade recklessly like this and hope to gain an advantage over those who trade sensibly.

[De Town]

To be honest, I'm delighted they're in trouble. Nothing against Waterford, but clubs can't trade recklessly like this and hope to gain an advantage over those who trade sensibly.
Im delighted for them aswell, because of 1 thing:

Alan Reynolds :mad:

[Poor Student]

This hardly came on overnight though. Even if the debt wasn't there at the start of the season, budgets, etc. would have to have been in place. Another fudge in the licencing process?



I was about to say this myself. It seems the loan papered over the cracks but now with their declining form crowds are dropping, they're out of the FAI Cup and there's little chance of Setanta or European qualification next season. Hard to see where the money will come from.

[Schumi]

If the club's in trouble (certainly if it goes into administration), then that's possibly illegal - all creditors have to be treated equally, so you can't realise your club's in trouble, pay back everything you're owed and then you lose nothing a couple of months later when you're paying creditors 20p in the £.
The impression I had (and I'm very open to correction on this) is that either he was the only creditor or their other creditors were also paid off.

[Poor Student]

The impression I had (and I'm very open to correction on this) is that either he was the only creditor or their other creditors were also paid off.

If either were the case they'd hardly be in such trouble would they? :confused:

[trevy]

http://www.munster-express.ie/news5.html
Go onto this webpage and Joh O'Connors article will answer most of the questions on the current situation at the club.

[Poor Student]

Very interesting and informative article. Sounds dodgy for Waterford. To save people going through the link:

--------------------------------------------------------------
Anxious days for Waterford United

Report by John O’Connor

The future of national league soccer in Waterford is at a crossroads this week as Waterford United, the current flag-bearer of one of the country’s proudest football traditions, struggles to survive.

The battle is raging both on and off the field of play but the most imminent danger, the one that could scupper United within weeks, is one of finance. To be more specific, the lack of hard cash.

Ironically, even though the club is in a very precarious state, its debt situation is all but under control and is not under threat from creditors.

But, even though the Blues are operating on a shoe-string budget compared to most other clubs in the premier division, there is simply not enough income being generated at the turnstiles or through sponsorship and donations.

The beleaguered club has only been kept afloat by the timely transfer of striker Daryl Murphy to Sunderland. But United cannot keep on losing and borrowing money at the rate it is going, especially as there is no other player on the books likely to provide the same financial return as Murphy.

If the current situation is not addressed in the immediate or very near future, there is a strong likelihood that United will finish the season trying to avoid relegation with an amateur squad, a forced scenario that proved unsuccessful in the past.

Financial constraints

At the moment, the club has no chairman as the acting chairman, Greg Pheasey, stepped down on Monday due to business commitments. Due to financial constraints, the club has reluctantly had to dispense with the services of commercial manager and playing legend, Johnny Matthews.

The two remaining directors, Jim Nolan and Martin Colbert, never expected to be so involved in the day to day running of the club but, as things stand, they are shouldering all the time-consuming responsibility.

Martin Colbert resigned as a director earlier in the year due to business pressures but returned last week in the club’s hour of need. Jim Nolan stays on but only for the time being. He has indicated that he needs to go but has agreed to remain on the board for a short period to facilitate the smooth transfer of the reins of power to a new management team, if indeed such a team can be assembled in the current difficult circumstances.

Acknowledged as an important writer and stage director on both sides of the Atlantic, Jim Nolan has heavy artistic commitments. He has recently completed a new play for the Abbey Theatre and is currently in the process of editing the script. He is also contracted to direct a play for the Abbey due to open in October.

Biggest shareholders

An annual general meeting is expected to take place as soon as possible but, because of the legal and business procedures to be followed, it is not likely to occur before the end of July.

The three biggest shareholders in Waterford United at present are Michael Finnegan, Ger O’Brien and Cathal Ryan. While the make-up of the company may have changed in the interim, the situation, as of April 2000, was that 417,028 Ordinary Shares of £1 each were issued and paid for as were 3,300 non equity Redeemable Preference Shares of £1 each. The preference shareholders are not entitled to attend or vote at general meetings of the company.

Shoe-string budget

Most premier league clubs operate on budgets ranging from about €18,000 to €25,000 per week. By paring everything to the bone, Waterford United is just about getting by on €10,000 a week. Its wage-bill is probably the lowest in the division with players getting from €100 to a maximum of €450 per week compared to players at other clubs, many of whom are earning in excess of €1000 per week plus extras.

Unfortunately, the average gate at United’s matches these days yields no more than €6,000 and that has to tide the club over for at least two weeks. In other words, it is running at a loss of €6,000 to €7,000 per week.

The total take from United’s last three games, all of which were at home and included an FAI Cup tie against St. Patrick’s Athletic, was in the region of €16,000. Compare that to the €17,000 realised from just one home-tie against Shelbourne shortly after Waterford were promoted to the premier division.

The next transfer window in the national league opens on July 1st. and, unless there is a dramatic change in the fortunes of the RSC based club, the squad could be seriously depleted. The player-manager, Alan Reynolds, has been asked to draw up a cost cutting plan as far as the players are concerned and rival clubs will also be waiting and watching in the hope of signing certain players.

Sunderland money

There has been much talk about the money received from Sunderland for the transfer of striker Daryl Murphy but most of it is uninformed. The Munster Express understands that the sum in question is £100,000 sterling. The player himself is entitled to a percentage as are a number of other interests. The common perception in local sports circles is that the majority of the money will go to the former club chairman, Ger O’Brien, but this is not correct.

Ger O’Brien is the club’s biggest creditor (much of it due in unpaid salary during his time as general manager) and this newspaper understands that the exact extent of that debt will be publicly revealed in the next set of accounts. We also understand that, following recent negotiations with Jim Nolan and Greg Pheasey, Mr.O’Brien agreed to write off the bulk of that debt. A portion of the agreed settlement is to be paid out of the Murphy transfer money with the rest to follow in due course.

Aventageous

It is understood that both Mr. Nolan and Mr. Pheasey were happy at the outcome of the discussions and believed the settlement was advantageous to Waterford United. The rest of the ‘Murphy money’ will be spent paying off the majority of the club’s other creditors.

Waterford United does have a separate debt, believed to be in the region of €150,000, that is under control as it is being serviced by funds from the Membership Scheme.

So, where now for Waterford United? The club needs the fans to rally around but it also needs an injection of cash from altruistic minded people with an interest in soccer and a desire to see Waterford back at the top of Irish football. If such support doesn’t materialise, the lower division, or worse, is a distinct possibility.

Without doubt, Waterford United is experiencing a very real crisis and, like the proverbial cat, it does not have nine live.

[Schumi]

If either were the case they'd hardly be in such trouble would they? :confused:
They're not getting enough money in to pay their wages, and they mightn't be able to secure a loan from a bank maybe? I don't know really but that was the impression I had.

Edit: similar-ish to what the article above said.

[Poor Student]

They're not getting enough money in to pay their wages, and they mightn't be able to secure a loan from a bank maybe? I don't know really but that was the impression I had.

Having read that article you're right actually. It seems creditors aren't really the problem. Their overheads just exceed their income. Simple as that.

[pete]

Seems very strange that a club of Waterfords size would have a paid General Manager at the same time as a paid Commercial Manager.

I'm surprised any former Director is seeing a cent as would be his own fault for running up the debts anyway?

Seems Waterford don't have huge long term debts but just cut cutting so break even on weekly basis. ! assume no fulltime players so seems crazy that any part time player would get 2k a month.

[pineapple stu]

It seems creditors aren't really the problem. Their overheads just exceed their income. Simple as that.
So that would imply that they've now got a big bank overdraft though? If that's the case, I think the payment to the director is still dubious at best.

What's the name of the company under which the club is trading? Found a couple of variants of "Waterford United Limited" on www.cro.ie, but all are dissolved at this stage (which isn't unusual in itself, incidentally)... :confused:

[exile]

rumour going around on btid (http://btid.irishfootie.net/viewforum.php?f=1&sid=806dcd613700c6877d8e7f08680b30ba) that he has been sacked reynolds that is

[Martinho II]

the last time i can remember a club that were getting into financial difficulites during the season in the top flight was dundalk in 98/99. If I can rem correctly , they had to sell their top earner paul doolin and they went down that season!

my heart goes out to waterford! best of luck lads! spoke to a few waterford supporters in longford on saturday a very loyal bunch they were to!

[Mr A]

Interesting article, but I can say for a fact that Harps operate on a smaller budget than Waterford do.

It looks like Waterford will be forced to cut the wage bill to a level they can sustain. This will surely be helped by the departure of Reynolds and is exactly what every club should be doing anyway.

[harry crumb]

They have a ****e soccer stadium. Not a great place to watch a match.

[thecorner]

They have a ****e soccer stadium. Not a great place to watch a match.


and sh!t fans..everything about the club stinks


i say"good riddance"

[Dick Long]

O'Brien is the main creditor has agreed to write off 'the bulk' of the club's debt to him - accrued mostly through deferred income as general manager - in exchange for an agreed percentage of the Murphy. It makes sense for the club to pay him say 50k in order to write for example a 150k debt out of their books. The one other main debt of 150k is being serviced through a direct debit membership scheme. Aside from that the club is probably in a healthier state than many other eircom clubs.

As a result of recent drastically dropping crowds it is obvious to the directors that there is a serious danger of getting into debt, and they are trying to head it off before that happens. They have been honest about this and are making an appeal for support. So it can't be said that it's their fault for allowing this to happen - it's not happened yet. All is needed is a bit of good will from the public, another 3 or 400 on the gate plus the release of one or two of the higher earners not pulling their weight, and things would be OK.

With Reynolds gone, Doherty is the biggest earner and while he's been excellent when on the pitch, he's been injured almost constantly. Two of the other signings Paul Crowley & Sean Finn have hardly played for one reason or another, while Willie Doyle who was signed as Daryl Murphy's eventual replacement has just not worked out at all. If they could get Doherty playing regularly results would improve, and ridding themselves of the other three they would probably save them 1k per week.

[Slash/ED]

Doherty is the biggest earner and while he's been excellent when on the pitch, he's been injured almost constantly.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Story of his career, if it wasn't for that he'd probably have had more success at Liverpool nevermind Shels.

[pineapple stu]

Aside from that the club is probably in a healthier state than many other eircom clubs.
Interesting thread from the UCD (http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=26467) forum - Waterford fans noting back in November that their club was one of the most stable in the league despite others arguing otherwise. With all due respect, I'd be inclined to take Waterford fans' views with a pinch of salt after that! Putting the entire squad up for sale (as has been mentioned) is a very drastic step if the club only has the threat of financial worries over it - they'll end up losing their best players and wind up relegated...then there'll be financial troubles...


Two of the other signings Paul Crowley & Sean Finn have hardly played for one reason or another
What's the story with Seán Finn? Quality player - don't understand how he's not getting a game unless he's injured?

[noby]

Putting the entire squad up for sale (as has been mentioned)


With all due respect, I'd be inclined to take that statement with a pinch of salt. Who exactly said that?

From reading Dick Long's posts, both here and on btid, he's usually right on the money so I'd be more inclined to go along with him:


As a result of recent drastically dropping crowds it is obvious to the directors that there is a serious danger of getting into debt, and they are trying to head it off before that happens. They have been honest about this and are making an appeal for support.

This appeal for support has been on various programs on WLR, and from this both supporters clubs have come up with different fund raising ideas. (One of them being the head shave, which may be small in the overall scheme, but is something)

There is a general apathy towards the blues by both the public and sponsors/investors, which the club are trying to rectify before it's too late.

As for Finn, he came highly rated, but hasn't made it past the subs bench on a regular occasion yet.

[pineapple stu]

Who exactly said that?
You could follow the link and find out! ;) Jagman and Partizan.

[observer]

De Corner you are a twit if you cannot see that the demise of clubs like Waterford or Shamrock Rovers would seriously enganger the future of the league itself. If you lose teams with tradition and colour then you damage the revenue of all clubs eventually. I wish Waterford the best of luck as like thousand of other genuine sports followers I would hate to see them go out of business. :ball:

[Poor Student]

De Corner you are a twit if you cannot see that the demise of clubs like Waterford or Shamrock Rovers would seriously enganger the future of the league itself. If you lose teams with tradition and colour then you damage the revenue of all clubs eventually. I wish Waterford the best of luck as like thousand of other genuine sports followers I would hate to see them go out of business. :ball:

Your natural inclination as a football fan is to hope these clubs do not go out of business for sake of tradition and their supporters. However these clubs have been spending money they simply do not have gaining an unfair advantage over their competitors and now expect to be bailed out in the aftermath and that is unfair on those of us who actually spend within our means. This is itself is something bad for the game. It's hard to know what to feel to be honest.

[el punter]

This is perhaps reflective of football as a whole at the moment. The game is dead, business is king.

What is the point in supporting a club? Are they representative of your region/town/city? Hardly, the league is merry go round, and most 'career' players - who knock out 5-10 years in the league will play for several clubs, so where's the representation there?

Who wins trophies? Is that a reflection of the talent of football in your region/town/city? Well, the teams with money buy the best players, have the best grounds and win the most trophies. So what do we celebrate, the achievements of the team that represents you or the achievements of the business men who made this happen.

Why not sing the investors names instead of the players? After all, they are the ones who really make the difference aren't they?

Theoretically Rovers and Waterford could challenge for trophies in Europe in 2 years if it were some patron's will. But what would Rovers and Waterford celebrate? the lottery that someone 'bought' success?

[Roo69]

This is perhaps reflective of football as a whole at the moment. The game is dead, business is king.

What is the point in supporting a club? Are they representative of your region/town/city? Hardly, the league is merry go round, and most 'career' players - who knock out 5-10 years in the league will play for several clubs, so where's the representation there?

Who wins trophies? Is that a reflection of the talent of football in your region/town/city? Well, the teams with money buy the best players, have the best grounds and win the most trophies. So what do we celebrate, the achievements of the team that represents you or the achievements of the business men who made this happen.

Why not sing the investors names instead of the players? After all, they are the ones who really make the difference aren't they?

Theoretically Rovers and Waterford could challenge for trophies in Europe in 2 years if it were some patron's will. But what would Rovers and Waterford celebrate? the lottery that someone 'bought' success?

What are you talking about ? People support a team in the eircom League because they are there local side, it does not matter where the players come from because they play for the club, you dont support the player, no player is bigger than any club. A lot of clubs nowadays have a lot of local players in there squads anyway, take Cork for example, brimming with local talent, Derry are the same.

[noby]

However these clubs have been spending money they simply do not have gaining an unfair advantage over their competitors and now expect to be bailed out in the aftermath


Poor Student, you're talking like we went out and bought all round us to win trophies. A couple of yere players and some more first division players were added to the squad. We didn't 'do a shels' or anything.
Budgets etc were set out, probably assuming a 1600 gate (not totally unreasonable), but with smaller crowds, it's getting harder to make ends meet. That's it.

[noby]

You could follow the link and find out! ;) Jagman and Partizan.


So, you believe Waterford fans when they say that, but previously take what the very same people said with a pinch of salt.
:rolleyes:

[Macy]

What is the point in supporting a club? Are they representative of your region/town/city? Hardly, the league is merry go round, and most 'career' players - who knock out 5-10 years in the league will play for several clubs, so where's the representation there?
You could say the same about the international team, any foreign club that Irish people follow etc.

You support the club, not individual players. Sure it's better if they're local and feel for the club in the same way the fans do, but ultimately i prefer Town have better players than crap locals.

Non-local players is just another thing to add to the excuse list for people that can't be bothered to get off their arses and go to watch a match live.

[el punter]

Yes Macy, it can be said about any club. Less so international football though, particularly with the current Irish team where the cast majority of the starting 11 were born and grew up in Ireland. Consequently I feel a great affinity with this Irish team.

On Roo's point, perhaps Cork and Derry are exceptions to the trend, (I would suggest that at extreme geographical ends of the country it's perhaps difficult to get Dublin based players to make the necessary sacrifices to travel). I think its hard to deny that many 'heroes' of one club will turn out for local rivals at some stage of their career. Shels preseason raid on Dalymount being a case in point.