WUFC have difficulty paying players

[observer]

Waterford's situation is hardly as a result of reckless buying to win trophies. It has already been pointed out that their wages bill is one of the lowest in the League. Anyone who is interested in the game as a whole would have to be alarmed at the idea of their going out of business. :ball:

[kevincronin2000]

I know a way that could help wufc. In todays leauge cup draw, heat the two balls that repesent cork city and the blues, hope that waterford are at home and they would be gaurenteed another bumper crowd. Waterford would be happy and city fans are gaurenteed that we dont have to travel to derry or drogheda. ;)

plus easy passage to the next round

[bluemovie]

Blues are hardly a team of mercenaries either. We have a small enough squad of which Frosty, Breen, Sullivan, Grant, Browne and Gahan are all local. As were Rennie and Daryl Murphy. Waters and Doyle are both from Wexford so we're their nearest eL club. Most of the rest come from the Munster/South East region - Holden, Mulcahy, Andrews, Purcell, Heffernan, Yelverton, Bruton. They're as local to us as Shels or Bohs are to a southside Dubliner.

As for the draw, kevin is right. I want Cork at home for the gate receipts and because in a derby, the hungrier side usually wins....and by God we're hungry.

[pineapple stu]

So, you believe Waterford fans when they say that
It's been widely reported in the media, as far as I can see.


Waterford's situation is hardly as a result of reckless buying to win trophies. It has already been pointed out that their wages bill is one of the lowest in the League.
While that's fair enough, if they had any sort of budget, they wouldn't be far outspending what they're bringing in. They mightn't be going all out to win trophies, but they are outliving their means. That's my problem.

I've no ill will towards Waterford's fans obviously, but similarly, I've no time for clubs who don't understand basic budgeting, unfortunately.

[harry crumb]

The RSC is a big problem IMO. Its a terrible place to watch a game.

[Poor Student]

Poor Student, you're talking like we went out and bought all round us to win trophies. A couple of yere players and some more first division players were added to the squad. We didn't 'do a shels' or anything.
Budgets etc were set out, probably assuming a 1600 gate (not totally unreasonable), but with smaller crowds, it's getting harder to make ends meet. That's it.

I'm not. I said you're outliving your means. If that means bringing you to midtable obscurity, or avoiding relegation it is still going above your means once expenditure exceeds income. Some of us don't do this and you gain an advantage over us. I don't want to see clubs going to the wall but I also want to see all of us living within means. That is the alarming thing. Football clubs continually err on the wrong side of caution.

[Risteard]

Is Rennie still a Waterford player?

[Poor Student]

Is Rennie still a Waterford player?

From what I've read he declined to stay on the playing staff however it is unclear if someone else goes for him whether Waterford will be due a transfer fee.

[noby]

I'm not. I said you're outliving your means. If that means bringing you to midtable onscurity, or avoiding relegation it is still going above your means once expenditure exceeds income. Some of us don't do this and you gain an advantage over us. I don't want to see clubs going to the wall but I also want to see all of us living within means. That is the alarming thing. Football clubs continually err on the wrong side of caution.

This is exactly what the directors have highlighted, and are acting on. Whether that means selling some players, or looking for investors, or just trying to boost the home gate, they are doing something before it's too late, and not just spending willy-nilly, and above their means.

[Dick Long]

9000 a week includes all running costs such as gardai/stewarding at home games and travel & food expenses for away games - something Dublin clubs do not have to contend with in any way near the same way as Cork, Derry and Waterford. Aside from the comparitively short journeys to Drogheda and Longford, Dublin sides will have to travel 'proper' either 4 or 5 times in the entire League campaign this season. I'm getting a bit defensive here - and it goes without saying UCD have their own obstacles to overcome - but it's pretty easy to budget on a crowd that couldn't possibly get any smaller. Based on the previous 4 seasons' attendances the Waterford Board's budgetting could not have been seen as a major risk.

Another (smaller) financial factor is the Tall Ships event coming to the town next month which every local business seems to be climbing over each other to get a piece of - at the expensive of Waterford United's sponsorship. A living legend of a player for Waterford Johnny Matthews - who is still the sixth highest goalscorer in League of Ireland history (as a winger!) - found himself banging his head against a brick wall in his efforts as the Club's Commerical Manager.

**** happens, the club will come through this just as Derry, Drogheda and even Pat's last year have done in recent seasons.

[Slash/ED]

The RSC is a big problem IMO. Its a terrible place to watch a game.

Agreed but what can they do about it? They can't afford to move or improve it and even if money wasnt the issue with improving it would they be let improve it anyway?

[pineapple stu]

9000 a week includes all running costs such as gardaí/stewarding at home games and travel & food expenses for away games
9000 a week for wages alone is being mentioned as well though?


it goes without saying UCD have their own obstacles to overcome - but it's pretty easy to budget on a crowd that couldn't possibly get any smaller.
If all else fails, take a dig at UCD, why not? :rolleyes:


Based on the previous 4 seasons' attendances the Waterford Board's budgetting could not have been seen as a major risk.
Per the attendances thread here, Waterford's crowds are only down 15% or so - poor, but not exactly unique. That doesn't sound like enough of a drop to go from stable to serious financial difficulties. Also - and this is me being genuinely curious - why are crowds down? Are the club overlooking the PR side of things? I still don't think such a drop would precipitate a possible big sell-off of players just 13 games into the season unless somebody somewhere screwed up...


Another (smaller) financial factor is the Tall Ships event coming to the town next month which every local business seems to be climbing over each other to get a piece of
How much of an effect is that having? There's tall ships in Dublin too - bigger town, I know, but still a problem for us as well. This only goes on for one or two weekends surely (ours is the only match to be moved, as far as I know) - it can't have that much of an effect?

[Dick Long]

THE Tall Ships Race is not in Dublin - the event is the single biggest thing ever to hit Waterford and is expected to attract upwards of 250,000 people to a city of 50,000 - it's been soaking up sponsorship for months.

Even 15% of 1300 people is 200... and 200 x e15 is e3000. The last 3 or 4 games have seen crowds of about 8/900, which may have dragged the overall seasonal average down by 15% but those 3 games alone would be about 4/500 down on what would be normally reasonably expected. The Cup turnout alone would have been 50% of a normal expected Cup gate; Waterford crowds have traditionally always turned out for the Cup even in the darkest days there would have been 2000 plus to see us play the Wayside Celtics.

So yes much has to do with PR, the whole Chairman / Chairman's son in the team / sacking of successive popular managers saga has obviously affected things. But really the main reason is always going to be results: when they're not going your way attendances will continue to drop and that's the cycle that's hard to emerge from.

As for a big 'sell-off' of players, frankly there's not really anyone there that would command a fee. Possibly Frost and Purcell would have reputations that would command a small offer, while a few clubs would be willing to take a Bruton or Heffernan off our hands... but it's the ones that are not doing the business that are costing us - as I highlighted earlier.

Waterford United aren't going to the wall - they've just gone public with a problem that has recently arisen in an attempt to stop it from escalating; so could people get off their high horses and making assumptions; this is a problem that could happen (and has) to (almost) any club in the League, even despite astute budgetting.

[pineapple stu]

THE Tall Ships Race is not in Dublin - the event is the single biggest thing ever to hit Waterford and is expected to attract upwards of 250,000 people to a city of 50,000 - it's been soaking up sponsorship for months.
Fair enough so - must be the famine ships or something we get...! I know there's something in town anyways...

Even from what you're saying though, it still seems a very drastic measure to be taking. Crowds go down for a few games and there's a crisis and players have to be sold? I can't see how it adds up, to be honest. If you sell off say four of your best players, you could be looking at relegation - that's hardly likely to help? Other clubs have had drops in attendances too without the sort of vibes coming out of Waterford at the moment. Granted, sponsorship may be hit, but I assume the core sponsors are still willing to help out?

Incidentally, why was Reynolds sacked? Was it for the incident in Harps or was it a cost-cutting measure too? I assume it wasn't for a few defeats?!

[pete]

Reynolds resigned.

Waterford are spending a lot more weekly than bringing through revenue so makes sense to cut costs with less players.

[Dick Long]

There was a combination of things which led to Reynolds departure which I'm not going to go into. Trawl back through the btid forum if you want more.

I wasn't suggesting we sell or get rid of our four best players, just stating that they'd be the only ones clubs would be eager to take.

Club coach Giles Cheevers has been officially given the reigns until the end of the season, so barring any agreed settlement with Reynolds (and I believe there was something), that's a good grand a week off the wages (combined player & manager wage).

If they can get shot of one or two bogeys from the squad when the window opens there'll be no need for anyone important to make way. Also either Doherty will go back to Shels and his wages will be saved or he will start playing regularly and contribute towards improving results. Would UCD care to take Doyle back, perhaps he'd fare better back there?

Hopefully the recent appeal will bring back even a fraction of those who deserted the club over the last month or two and some more money will come available and that will be the end of all this hysteria.

[Dick Long]

Incidentally Reynolds has officially signed for Shels this morning.

[Schumi]

Would UCD care to take Doyle back, perhaps he'd fare better back there?
No thanks. I'd like to see Finn back though. Don't know if we have any wage budget left though.

[Dick Long]

We've seen next to nothing of Finn, either through injury or lack of fitness; so hopefully he's another that will either come good (and we badly need a player with a bit of vision) - or at least be shaved from the wage bill at no loss to what we've had from him since the start of the season.

[pineapple stu]

Reynolds resigned.
He "resigned" was how I was looking at it... Maybe I'm just cynical.


I'd like to see Finn back though. Don't know if we have any wage budget left though.
No money for transfers either, I'd say.

[Bald Student]

Waterford are spending a lot more weekly than bringing through revenue so makes sense to cut costs with less players.I agree in theory but there's something funny about the urgency of the whole affair. Crowds dropped for a few games and they're out a few grand from gate receipts. Added to that they're up probably 100 grand from the transfer. Surley they can't be behind budget for the year.

I know that the transfer money went to pay off long term debts but even that should help the financial position of the club. What I can't understand is that a club which very recently was on a steady financial footing is suddenly talking about the possibility of going out of business.

As for Seán Finn and Willie Doyle, they left on bad terms and are unlikely to be resigned by UCD. If I have time I'll look for our managers comments on them in the press.

[pineapple stu]

Added to that they're up probably 100 grand from the transfer. Surley they can't be behind budget for the year.
Good point - I'd (somehow!) forgotten about that. That E100k (or was it £100k) wouldn't have been in Waterford's initial budget and would surely make up any shortfalls in gate income at the very least. It doesn't matter that the money went to pay off a director's loans as getting cash for player is profit, whereas using the cash to pay off a loan is purely a balance sheet transaction and wouldn't affect the club's standing at all.

Edit - the transfer fee was £100,000 sterling - E150,000. Let's say we allow for costs (e.g. to Murphy, to his former clubs, etc., as have been mentioned) of E50k to bring it to E100k. If the club is losing E3k a week, this income will prop that loss up for the entire season (bearing in mind the fact that it doesn't matter that it was paid out to a director, as that won't affect the club's profit or loss for the year). Which seems that talk of the club going out of business/selling players, etc. makes absolutely no sense at all...

[pete]

Waterford have a history of blowing vast sums of cash.

I seem to remember them spending £800k of the money raised by their CO-OP in 18 months at end of the 90's & still win feck all ;)

[pineapple stu]

And the person responsible for that is now head of football in Ireland... :(