Attendances 2020

[Shearer]

Superb crowd st Tallaght, & grest for Shels ss well.

Though does that count as 6,108 at Tolka ?😜
Rumours of sections of Tolka being closed are greatly exaggerated :D

[Nesta99]

To be fair the weather was horrendous. Got absolutely drenched on my walk to the stadium. Fair play to those that came out.

But but there is cover in all of the ground!! Its a significant falloff and more likely 'cause of shipping 9 goals in 2 games prior to tonight than the weather.

[El-Pietro]

But but there is cover in all of the ground!! Its a significant falloff and more likely 'cause of shipping 9 goals in 2 games prior to tonight than the weather.

The results had an effect as did general news a out the clubs situation but you can't rule out the weather. It was torrential. Youd get destroyed walking in and out of the ground. The wind meant certain sections were getting wind blown in on them.

Harps also wouldn't be much of a draw and don't bring many away fans all the way to Cork which is reasonable given the journey.

Overall I was fairly happy with 2300

[patrickccfc]

But but there is cover in all of the ground!! Its a significant falloff and more likely 'cause of shipping 9 goals in 2 games prior to tonight than the weather.

That's all well and good having covered stands but people would have to think if it was worth getting drenched to get there. The lower level of the Donie Forde stand had very few in it and people were at the back of the Derrynane Road stand to avoid the rain. Of course recent results would give some a reason not to go, but not the main one I suspect.

Myself, I had a 30 minute walk to get through to the get there, and that wasn't pleasant to say the least.

[Shearer]

261 official in Athlone.

[joey B]

312 in Tallaght today.

[sidewayspasser]

That's all well and good having covered stands but people would have to think if it was worth getting drenched to get there. The lower level of the Donie Forde stand had very few in it and people were at the back of the Derrynane Road stand to avoid the rain.
I was in the second last row of the Derrynane, and even there it wasn't dry as the wind was blowing the rain into the stand.

[Martinho II]

Saw on extratime website that 850 attended Drogs Town game.

[Nesta99]

The results had an effect as did general news a out the clubs situation but you can't rule out the weather. It was torrential. Youd get destroyed walking in and out of the ground. The wind meant certain sections were getting wind blown in on them.

Harps also wouldn't be much of a draw and don't bring many away fans all the way to Cork which is reasonable given the journey.

Overall I was fairly happy with 2300

Well I did say more likely results than definitely. There is no doubt that the weather does negatively impact attendances - no more so than at Oriel. It was a bit of a perfect storm for Cork if ye pardon the pun!

[El-Pietro]

That's totally fair I just wanted to explain how bad the weather was. A friend of mine who is a FORAS member but also a teacher decided against going last minute because she was worried about missing work due to weather related illness

[Kingswood Rover]

ah here thats it in the dog ate me homework class of excuses, 2300 is corks core support hopefully this result galvanishes the team and they kick on we need a strong southern presence in the league at all times.

[mrtndvn]

That's totally fair I just wanted to explain how bad the weather was. A friend of mine who is a FORAS member but also a teacher decided against going last minute because she was worried about missing work due to weather related illness

is that you Deontay Wilder?

[oriel]

7,522 in Tallaght,
3,054 in Tolka,
2,367 in Turner's Cross.
3,054 in Tolka.

All official attendances.

Almost 4k avg to the button ! Amazing if we could get this even say 5 more weeks of the season, but as we all know crowds drop off. Brilliant to see.

Any Rovers (or DFC fans) know the total away support last night, I heard between 1k and 1.2k.

[Asterix]

It was less than what bohs bring, probably in the 900-1000 region.

Actually bohs will probably be limited to less than a 1000 tickets for the game is april. A bigger segregation zone will be needed for that game and the fans in the home end of the east stand last night pretty much went right up to the gantry.

[oriel]

Fair enough, although I knew plenty DFC fans who got tickets into the main stand, I would tend to agree 1k would be about right.

[EatYerGreens]

Just over 3,000 at the Brandywell tonight. Sections F G H I J and K were rammed with people two deep standing behind the seats as most of the stand was full. Great 2nd half with a great atmosphere.

I'd say no more than 3,000, as there were lots of empty seats visible both in and from the Mark Farren Stand.

It was a better crowd than I'd expected/feared.

[nigel-harps1954]

1,582 in Finn Park

[D24Saint]

I would say there was 2600-2800 in Richmond tonight.

[CorribsideSteve]

2,058 in Richmond
1,524 at the RSC
3,560 in Dalymount
1,582 in Ballybofey

Source:Twitter-Domestic Ireland

[D24Saint]

2,058 in Richmond

Surprised by that figure it looked very similar to the opening game and that was down as 2800.

[ToberonaTornado]

Drogs v UCD 840 or something close(Tweet seems to have disappeared)
Wexford v Galway 218 https://twitter.com/WexfordFC/status/1236059476429549575

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

2,385 in The Showgrounds

[D24Saint]

Drogs v UCD 840 or something close(Tweet seems to have disappeared)
Wexford v Galway 218 https://twitter.com/WexfordFC/status/1236059476429549575

Drogs seem to have decent team this year , will their price structure hurt their crowds ?

[Ezeikial]

Drogs seem to have decent team this year , will their price structure hurt their crowds ?

Adult online price is €13 gate price is €15.

Do you think it's too low or too high?

[D24Saint]

Adult online price is €13 gate price is €15.

Do you think it's too low or too high?

my mistake I thought I saw someone on here complaining about their prices so assumed they still charged their old premier division fees.

[outspoken]

Adult online price is €13 gate price is €15.

Do you think it's too low or too high?

€13 into a shed with no seats (I'm talking about away end) and a wall to pish against for the jack's. Would you say 13 euro is good value

[Ezeikial]

€13 into a shed with no seats (I'm talking about away end) and a wall to pish against for the jack's. Would you say 13 euro is good value

The ground is poor, but I doubt if reduced prices would have much impact on attendances.

[outspoken]

The ground is poor, but I doubt if reduced prices would have much impact on attendances.

Almost 20 quid into a stand that is barely much higher than pitch level, maybe you're right and the same amount would turn up at €15 but when you see it's only a tenner into a ground like Longford it's hard to argue Drogheda are offering any sort of value

[Ezeikial]

Almost 20 quid into a stand that is barely much higher than pitch level, maybe you're right and the same amount would turn up at €15 but when you see it's only a tenner into a ground like Longford it's hard to argue Drogheda are offering any sort of value

I'm not suggesting it is value (although if I have always willingly paid €15 in to the away end when Dundalk play there, is that a contradiction of some sort?).

The original question I responded to was about the price structure influencing crowds - I doubt if it has much impact in Drogheda's case.

[nigel-harps1954]

First update of the season, brought to you by COVID-19.

PREMIER DIVISION

Bohs - 3,333 (2,878; 2,148; 2,006; 1,627; 1,724; 1,395; 1,597; 1,496; 1,488)
Cork - 3,164 (2,505; 4,245; 4,559; 2,533; 3,263; 3,777; 1,965; 2,786; 2,128 FD)
Derry - 3,200 (2,878; 2,297; 1,517; 1,563; 1,124; 1,106; 1,446; 1,460; 2,135)
Dundalk - 2,700 (2,775; 2,738; 2,674; 2,738; 3,158; 2,534; 1,997; 949; 1,355)
Harps - 1,910 (1,153; 708 FD; 1,202; 1,216; 784 FD; 449 FD; 479 FD; 429 FD; 433 FD; 644 FD)
Pat's - 2,443 (1,887; 1,621; 1,504; 1,088; 1,321; 1,386; 1,687; 1,474; 1,346)
Rovers - 6,314 (3,445; 2,749; 2,809; 2,041; 2,890; 2,269; 2,763; 3,127; 3,779)
Shels - 3,032 (1,075 FD; 654 FD; 496 FD; 554 FD; 596 FD; 713 FD; 1,114; 1,187; 781 FD)
Sligo - 2,265 (1,995; 1,853; 1,717; 1,750; 1,750; 1,959; 2,342; 3,007; 2,103)
Waterford - 1,882 (1,597; 2,329; 1,550 FD; 314 FD; 460 FD; 470 FD; 478 FD; 453 FD; 466 FD)

FIRST DIVISION

Athlone - 261 (369; 130; 154; 156; 314; 653 PD; 754; 271; 200)
Bray - 1,106 (798; 643 PD; 966 PD; 957 PD; 769 PD; 718 PD; 891 PD; 965 PD; 1,121 PD)
Cabinteely - 401 (370; 261; 346; 352; 610)
Cobh - 440 (280; 236; 358; 403; 366; 223; 439; 2008 - 1,122 PD; 681)
Drogheda - 737 (928; 377; 850 PD; 583; 813 PD; 1,064 PD; 817 PD; 977 PD; 811 PD)
Galway - 0 (795; 746; 1,376 PD; 1,169 PD; 1,290 PD; 975)
Longford - 442 (611; 449; 342; 488 PD; 803 PD; 567; 379; 365; 315)
Rovers II - 312 (231 - 2014)
UCD - 200 (735 PD; 365; 236; 297; 216; 397 PD; 487 PD; 506 PD; 558 PD; 610 PD)
Wexford - 212 (235; 181; 338; 585 PD; 553; 331; 227; 302; 216)

PREMIER AVERAGE: 2,986 (2,185; 2,170; 1,902; 1,476; 1,681; 1,502; 1,566; 1,630; 1,547)
FIRST DIVISION AVERAGE: 454(586; 413; 477; 476; 486; 495; 391; 372; 578)

OVERALL AVERAGE: 2,046 (1,500; 1,249; 1,387; 1,117; 1,249; 1,160; 1,140; 1,125; 1,110)


OVERALL PREMIER ATTENDANCE: 65,697 (393,238; 316,515; 376,627; 292,204; 332,805; 297,334)
OVERALL FIRST ATTENDANCE: 5,900 (79,115; 55,756; 53,461; 52,807; 54,474; 55,408)

OVERALL COMBINED ATTENDANCE: 71,597 (472,353; 372,271; 430,088; 345,011; 387,279; 352,742)

[sbgawa]

Cheers Nigel.
Some huge increases, could see big crowds continue when/If season starts again, people will be desperate to see some live football

[D24Saint]

Cheers Nigel.
Some huge increases, could see big crowds continue when/If season starts again, people will be desperate to see some live football

It could go either way I reckon. When things return to normality it could be the case that people will flock to events, or they could be wary of mass gatherings if this affects their physiology. It’s also the case that disposable income will be way down when the dust settles on all this and could bring on a recession, something that has never favoured LOI clubs.

[ToberonaTornado]

UCD - getting social distancing right since 1979 :D

[oriel]

Dundalk seem to be stuck on 2,700 since 2016. This has nothing to do with the away end, as some clubs do takedecent away support, I've said it before, there is certain 'laziness' with our core support in picking games they go to.

This team should be getting 3k min.

[EatYerGreens]

Dundalk seem to be stuck on 2,700 since 2016. This has nothing to do with the away end, as some clubs do takedecent away support, I've said it before, there is certain 'laziness' with our core support in picking games they go to.

This team should be getting 3k min.

Don't forget that Dundalk only has a population of 65,000 people. It could obviously draw bigger crowds, but not much bigger for a small town with another club in the same county eating into their potential support too.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Dundalk seem to be stuck on 2,700 since 2016. This has nothing to do with the away end, as some clubs do takedecent away support

You can't just outright dismiss a very valid factor just because you don't like it. Especially not when it's a factor that is never, and never will be, relevant to you.

Anyway everyone knows why Dundalks attendances have plateaued where they have, some factors Dundalk can work on, some are league dependent, some require wider societal changes.

[Ezeikial]

Dundalk seem to be stuck on 2,700 since 2016. This has nothing to do with the away end, as some clubs do takedecent away support, I've said it before, there is certain 'laziness' with our core support in picking games they go to.

This team should be getting 3k min.

This 'laziness' narrative is also regularly trotted out by some on OW and could be generously described as, ahem, lazy. Blaming people for not attending rarely encourages them to come more regularly and obscures analysis of the actual reasons.

The limitations of the ground in the context of cover and sight lines means that it is very difficult to increase the consistent home support. When the attendance level is circa 2250 - 2500 there is reasonable rain cover and sights lines with the obvious exception of the away end.

Beyond that attendance level it creates a sharp down trajectory in the match experience - it is not especially attractive to take kids where they are likely to get soaked in the rain or have limited views of the match. It becomes a near impossible task to turn large numbers of casuals into regulars with these issues.

The away end is not the problem itself - it is just one part of it.

[oriel]

Don't forget that Dundalk only has a population of 65,000 people. It could obviously draw bigger crowds, but not much bigger for a small town with another club in the same county eating into their potential support too.

Its a lot less than that, I think 45k in the town, add in Blackrock area maybe 50k, but def no more than that.

However there is not a lot to attract locals on a wet night, ridiculous at this stage that even more modest short term improvements can't be installed. How hard can be it to be build a roof on both sides of the stand that doesn't impede the stand, and even a terrace behind the town goal?

No one is asking for overnight miracles, gradual improvements would be nice, and this would increase crowds in my view, this and better food / drinks / toilets all over the ground, yes there is a good core going to home games, but this should be the only show in town on a Friday, in the current state its not.

[ToberonaTornado]

Oriel -
Dundalk town has a population just shy of 30k.Throw in Blackrock,Bellingham and the peninsula you get 45k.
Dunleer and anything south of there is Drogheda.
Dundalk supporters north of the border(and there are a good few) are mostly Dundalk native.North of Killeen border crossing is prob 0
This exercise was done before.Dundalk for the population we have is punching above its weight,and Sligo also.Shams attendance same % as Dundalk re population and attendances and i think Derry was in there.

The yanks in Dundalk spin improving the ground to paying say McEleney's wages.
Which would you want?

Hypothetical question
.

[DCWA]

To be honest the whole small improvements, stick a roof on kinda of thinking is a false economy, it won’t happen, no one will do it because for Oriel it has reached the stage of keep it as it is or a proper redevelopment.

Anything else would be a stop gap that would have to be destroyed in the event of a proper redevelopment (which surely inevitably will come) and therefore a waste of money.

I can’t blame Dundalk at this stage for letting it completely rot to the extent that it becomes entirely not fit for purpose then somehow get a proper redevelopment.

[Nesta99]

To be honest the whole small improvements, stick a roof on kinda of thinking is a false economy, it won’t happen, no one will do it because for Oriel it has reached the stage of keep it as it is or a proper redevelopment.

Anything else would be a stop gap that would have to be destroyed in the event of a proper redevelopment (which surely inevitably will come) and therefore a waste of money.

I can’t blame Dundalk at this stage for letting it completely rot to the extent that it becomes entirely not fit for purpose then somehow get a proper redevelopment.

You are right but where there is a will there is a way. Seaview in Belfast would be the top end example of development with consideration for a move in due course. At this stage I can only presume that there would be need for planning permission to even just cover areas which could open a can of worms that can only be fixed with a big job. Vinny was up painting walls in Oriel during this unscheduled break - some painting alone would at this point get some brownie points from Dundalk fans!

[BonnieShels]

First update of the season, brought to you by COVID-19.

PREMIER DIVISION

Bohs - 3,333 (2,878; 2,148; 2,006; 1,627; 1,724; 1,395; 1,597; 1,496; 1,488)
Cork - 3,164 (2,505; 4,245; 4,559; 2,533; 3,263; 3,777; 1,965; 2,786; 2,128 FD)
Derry - 3,200 (2,878; 2,297; 1,517; 1,563; 1,124; 1,106; 1,446; 1,460; 2,135)
Dundalk - 2,700 (2,775; 2,738; 2,674; 2,738; 3,158; 2,534; 1,997; 949; 1,355)
Harps - 1,910 (1,153; 708 FD; 1,202; 1,216; 784 FD; 449 FD; 479 FD; 429 FD; 433 FD; 644 FD)
Pat's - 2,443 (1,887; 1,621; 1,504; 1,088; 1,321; 1,386; 1,687; 1,474; 1,346)
Rovers - 6,314 (3,445; 2,749; 2,809; 2,041; 2,890; 2,269; 2,763; 3,127; 3,779)
Shels - 3,032 (1,075 FD; 654 FD; 496 FD; 554 FD; 596 FD; 713 FD; 1,114; 1,187; 781 FD)
Sligo - 2,265 (1,995; 1,853; 1,717; 1,750; 1,750; 1,959; 2,342; 3,007; 2,103)
Waterford - 1,882 (1,597; 2,329; 1,550 FD; 314 FD; 460 FD; 470 FD; 478 FD; 453 FD; 466 FD)

FIRST DIVISION

Athlone - 261 (369; 130; 154; 156; 314; 653 PD; 754; 271; 200)
Bray - 1,106 (798; 643 PD; 966 PD; 957 PD; 769 PD; 718 PD; 891 PD; 965 PD; 1,121 PD)
Cabinteely - 401 (370; 261; 346; 352; 610)
Cobh - 440 (280; 236; 358; 403; 366; 223; 439; 2008 - 1,122 PD; 681)
Drogheda - 737 (928; 377; 850 PD; 583; 813 PD; 1,064 PD; 817 PD; 977 PD; 811 PD)
Galway - 0 (795; 746; 1,376 PD; 1,169 PD; 1,290 PD; 975)
Longford - 442 (611; 449; 342; 488 PD; 803 PD; 567; 379; 365; 315)
Rovers II - 312 (231 - 2014)
UCD - 200 (735 PD; 365; 236; 297; 216; 397 PD; 487 PD; 506 PD; 558 PD; 610 PD)
Wexford - 212 (235; 181; 338; 585 PD; 553; 331; 227; 302; 216)

PREMIER AVERAGE: 2,986 (2,185; 2,170; 1,902; 1,476; 1,681; 1,502; 1,566; 1,630; 1,547)
FIRST DIVISION AVERAGE: 454(586; 413; 477; 476; 486; 495; 391; 372; 578)

OVERALL AVERAGE: 2,046 (1,500; 1,249; 1,387; 1,117; 1,249; 1,160; 1,140; 1,125; 1,110)


OVERALL PREMIER ATTENDANCE: 65,697 (393,238; 316,515; 376,627; 292,204; 332,805; 297,334)
OVERALL FIRST ATTENDANCE: 5,900 (79,115; 55,756; 53,461; 52,807; 54,474; 55,408)

OVERALL COMBINED ATTENDANCE: 71,597 (472,353; 372,271; 430,088; 345,011; 387,279; 352,742)

It is typical that the LOI is facing a fantastic season and the crowds in the PD were geat across the board with people I know who have had no interest in the LOI before now and then this crap hits us. Hopefully being starved of live sport will be a boost going forward when we're through this.

[El-Pietro]

It is typical that the LOI is facing a fantastic season and the crowds in the PD were geat across the board with people I know who have had no interest in the LOI before now and then this crap hits us. Hopefully being starved of live sport will be a boost going forward when we're through this.

Attendances are always high early in the season. They come down over time, don't read much into crowds in the first 4 or 5 weeks.

[oriel]

Oriel -
Dundalk town has a population just shy of 30k.Throw in Blackrock,Bellingham and the peninsula you get 45k.
Dunleer and anything south of there is Drogheda.
Dundalk supporters north of the border(and there are a good few) are mostly Dundalk native.North of Killeen border crossing is prob 0
This exercise was done before.Dundalk for the population we have is punching above its weight,and Sligo also.Shams attendance same % as Dundalk re population and attendances and i think Derry was in there.

The yanks in Dundalk spin improving the ground to paying say McEleney's wages.
Which would you want?

Hypothetical question


.

TT - We were both wrong, I looked up the last population of Dundalk from June 2018, it was 39,004, so add in Blackrock area (closest to the town), this gives around 45k max.

Re Q on paying wages over ground improvements, I get that, but modest improvements won't cost the earth, plus on another question from DCWA, this being a waste of money, its really not, plenty of people renting will have their properties improved. The tiresome question will always be the key areas of roofing both sides of the stand, then anything** even perm - temp behind town goal, these are not huge projects and would serve the club well for medium term.

** examples being what Limerick had behind their goal or possibly what Pats have.

[Nesta99]

Dundalk and Dundalk Rural, or the hinterland wouldnt be a kick in the pants off 60k. Lisdoo/Armagh Rd, Faughart, Haggardstown and Blackrock as mentioned are all classed a rural population but would be a big catchment for the club. When all the housing units that are being built at South Dundalk just beyond Sextons Pub it would jump again with nearly 2000 housing units being onstructed. Likewise at the back of Mooreland where a massive tranche of land has been opened up. If that development goes ahead it would include links to Ardee and Carrick Rds and complete a ring road which would be of benefit to the club with access possible from either side of Oriel including additional exits off the M1 toward the Carrick side of the road.

[Shearer]

One of the main criticisms aimed at Limerick was that through all the money, they had exactly what they had at the end as what they had at the beginning - nothing.

I do fear that the same will happen to Dundalk (to a lesser extent seeing as they have a lease on the ground) with the way things are with Peak 6. Yes they have a fantastic training facility, but the fans will never lay eyes on the inside of it. With this current pandemic (no fault of Dundalk's) I assume they're paying wages out of their pocket, if you combine that with a poor European run last year and potentially another one whenever it comes around again, I'm afraid they will pull the plug meaning that people will be watching football through the same grubby perspex glass after five league titles as they were when they were in a playoff.

Not wishing any ill on Dundalk, hope it doesn't come off as such.

[oriel]

P6 have confirmed they will pay wages during this period, they haven't given a date but appears it covers players and staff.

https://www.dundalkfc.com/a-message-from-the-board-of-directors/

I think like most Irish clubs, if owners or main backers pull out, either need to get new owners or the club would be in trouble. P6 picked up 1.2M last year from Europe, but we all know that's not what they are after, its a slice of the EL group stage (7m now) or play off round (2.5 - 3m I think, if you advance via CL stage and not drop out to EL like Linfield did).

Good to see them confirming payments, and we assume this is to the small admin team also, disgusting to see likes of Liverpool going down the Furlong route today for admin staff, while their every year a millionaire players get full wages.

[Nesta99]

One of the main criticisms aimed at Limerick was that through all the money, they had exactly what they had at the end as what they had at the beginning - nothing.

I do fear that the same will happen to Dundalk (to a lesser extent seeing as they have a lease on the ground) with the way things are with Peak 6. Yes they have a fantastic training facility, but the fans will never lay eyes on the inside of it. With this current pandemic (no fault of Dundalk's) I assume they're paying wages out of their pocket, if you combine that with a poor European run last year and potentially another one whenever it comes around again, I'm afraid they will pull the plug meaning that people will be watching football through the same grubby perspex glass after five league titles as they were when they were in a playoff.

Not wishing any ill on Dundalk, hope it doesn't come off as such.

It is very much a concern for every Dundalk fan. We have to keep the faith to some extent though that Peak6 are true to their word and are in for the long haul. Disruption to the season aside I think progress has been made on squad additions that could improve our chances of progressing in Europe. As a seeded side you hope for that 1st round minimum and then parachuting in to 2nd/3rd tier comps. Peak6 to their credit have done exactly as they have said so far. No big unfulfilled promises of a new ground - depending on future achievements maybe. There was little stopping them from putting in planning applications and kicking them down the road for decades. We have had a paint job done it seems - additional off field progress :p The way things have been developed off the field with player facilities, new staff etc. well it makes some sense to try and get all that right and maximised first tbh. Hopefully this will develop the club to the point of ground improvements on the cards.

[EatYerGreens]

It is very much a concern for every Dundalk fan. We have to keep the faith to some extent though that Peak6 are true to their word and are in for the long haul. Disruption to the season aside I think progress has been made on squad additions that could improve our chances of progressing in Europe. As a seeded side you hope for that 1st round minimum and then parachuting in to 2nd/3rd tier comps. Peak6 to their credit have done exactly as they have said so far. No big unfulfilled promises of a new ground - depending on future achievements maybe. There was little stopping them from putting in planning applications and kicking them down the road for decades. We have had a paint job done it seems - additional off field progress :p The way things have been developed off the field with player facilities, new staff etc. well it makes some sense to try and get all that right and maximised first tbh. Hopefully this will develop the club to the point of ground improvements on the cards.

This discussion is repeated ad nauseum though.

Why would Peak6 spend any money on ground improvements, unless forced to do so for a license? They're venture capitalists, in it to make money. And they'll do that on the pitch, not via the stadium. They wouldn't recoup the cost of any work to the stadium within any sensible timespan. So I just don't see any incentive for them to do it. I fear you're stuck with Oriel for the foreseeable.

[Nesta99]

This discussion is repeated ad nauseum though.

Why would Peak6 spend any money on ground improvements, unless forced to do so for a license? They're venture capitalists, in it to make money. And they'll do that on the pitch, not via the stadium. They wouldn't recoup the cost of any work to the stadium within any sensible timespan. So I just don't see any incentive for them to do it. I fear you're stuck with Oriel for the foreseeable.

It has and I'm sure it will be discussed again as soon as people gat lashed on in the away section or there are no minerals or crisps on sale. In relation to the last sentence I dont think I suggested much else!? If there are signicifant numbers left without tickets each home game at some point, after a number of successful European group stage campaigns then the picture could change.

I dont completely agree that cost of work would never be recouped though or wouldnt be of any value to the owners. Clever design, multi-use, successful grant awards, incremental work etc bring down cost or generate additional income, and before primary use is included. Throw in sponsorship and how business might be more willing to have their brand associated with a more modern facility, maybe with corporate hospitality areas thrown in, cheap credit and so on well it isnt impossible to achieve if there ever is any will. There would likely be need to change the lease agreement. Venture capitalists or not if the stars align ye just never know, we could have a new stand open before Harps do...

Its all fanciful thinking, but what isnt is maximising all possible use of what already exists eg within the YDC, bars, pitch or whatever. Recruiting full time staff that generate more than they cost even.