Cash injection for Cork City

[Nesta99]

Undoubtedly the current BoM earned their beans by getting things sorted. I thought there was something in an article that suggeted the issue with the Revenue dated back 18 months, I cant find it now but in fairness maybe it meant that the issue dated over 18 months and not the the club knew for 18 months if that makes sense. It's understandable that the details of finances are kept inhouse so a full picture cant really be given. It really was a perfect storm with the drop off in income and a large unexpected bill arrives in the post.

I certainly didnt intend to sound like I was being critical if it came across like that. It's a much an interest in how things got so close and without the usual treks to court and media coverage. Someone usually leaks the info along the line. In terms of an EGM I was thinking more about the financial implications of the fall off in league performance when the original 2019 budget was set for a league challange. EP mentioned the large group of dissenting voices at the AGM when the budget was passed, the people that wanted a more conservative budget would be far more in line with the whole ethos of Foras and their concern was warrented!. It is one of the biggest issues with fan owned club models where sometimes fans are too close to the club and are overly positive when making financial decisions. If CCFC sought a tax rebate and got it then the revenue messed up too, the issue should a been identified a lot sooner and some wriggle room given.

Dundalk FC Co-op did something similar when members were asked what level of budget should be set eg a budget that could get us promoted; this was passed without seriously looking at income and almost broke the club in the end and sent us in to a protracted tailspin. It was as if money would magically appear to cover costs. With this in mind I'd have thought that last May/June when things were going south for CCFC that a revised budget should have been put to the membership. Obviously its not easy to get rid of contracted players and staff but maybe an attempt to cut wages or a deferral of X% OF payment should have been at least proposed if it wasnt.

I always wonder why the revenue push a business in to folding as surely it is better to play ball and get paid over a period of time instead of causing liquidation meaning no full repayment and a whole load of creditors out of pocket also. They werent to know that PNE would be so amenable so it was a stroke of luck for the taxman (and club) that there was value to add-ons in the end.

[El-Pietro]

If Jonathan O Brien wasnt a TD do the Cork City fans think that the financial scenario would have still happened?
Thats such an irrelevant question. We've had several different boards over the years. He was on the original board but he was just one of several members. Hes just the most high profile.

[El-Pietro]

Undoubtedly the current BoM earned their beans by getting things sorted. I thought there was something in an article that suggeted the issue with the Revenue dated back 18 months, I cant find it now but in fairness maybe it meant that the issue dated over 18 months and not the the club knew for 18 months if that makes sense.

There was effectively a misunderstanding on VAT. It came to light in 2019 but dated back to VAT paid/claimed back in previous years.


EP mentioned the large group of dissenting voices at the AGM when the budget was passed, the people that wanted a more conservative budget would be far more in line with the whole ethos of Foras and their concern was warrented!. It is one of the biggest issues with fan owned club models where sometimes fans are too close to the club and are overly positive when making financial decisions. If CCFC sought a tax rebate and got it then the revenue messed up too, the issue should a been identified a lot sooner and some wriggle room given.
Over the past few years we were chasing the dream, titles, Europe etc. We took our eyes off the ball, but we trusted that the board at the time were on top of things. In hindsight we should have been asking tougher questions. While many thought the budget was too ambitious in 2019 the timing of the AGM/budget means even if the membership rejected it there wasn't much we could do to reduce it (AGM is in March).



Dundalk FC Co-op did something similar when members were asked what level of budget should be set eg a budget that could get us promoted; this was passed without seriously looking at income and almost broke the club in the end and sent us in to a protracted tailspin. It was as if money would magically appear to cover costs. With this in mind I'd have thought that last May/June when things were going south for CCFC that a revised budget should have been put to the membership. Obviously its not easy to get rid of contracted players and staff but maybe an attempt to cut wages or a deferral of X% OF payment should have been at least proposed if it wasnt.

Our board did cut the budget mid season. Look at the starting XI/squad at the start and end of the season.


I always wonder why the revenue push a business in to folding as surely it is better to play ball and get paid over a period of time instead of causing liquidation meaning no full repayment and a whole load of creditors out of pocket also. They werent to know that PNE would be so amenable so it was a stroke of luck for the taxman (and club) that there was value to add-ons in the end.
I agree with this, but I guess the fact is they knew we were up against a deadline and knew we would blink first - though they pushed too hard and we would have gone bust if not for the input from Preston.
Maybe they wanted to put out a statement and say they won't deal with LOI clubs like this anymore.

[Ezeikial]

It seems to me that the current BoM at Cork have done an excellent job, but there are serious questions about how previous boards operated. John Caulfield is far from blameless in the series of events that have taken the club close to folding

[White Horse]

"Those delegates agreed with the club that they would pay €199,000 for both players' clauses - a price believe to believed to be well below what City may have reasonably expected to receive in current market conditions.

Having secured the money for Browne and Maguire's contractual obligations, Cork then re-approached the FAI to renew their Premier Division licence, with two hours to go. The approach was refused due to concerns over their outstanding bank debts and the club re-approached Ridsdale who upped Preston's offer for the two players.

The new offer included €450,000 for the terms regarding Browne and Maguire, as well as €150,000 for first refusal on a takeover of Cork City."

https://www.offtheball.com/soccer/cork-city-two-hours-away-going-bust-takeover-update-972571

I'm trying to get my head around this. Preston upped their initial offer, as Cork were going to go to the wall. However, if the club went to the wall the clauses would have been worthless. Upping the offer only makes sense to me if Preston already consider Cork as being their club. Am I missing something?

[El-Pietro]

"Those delegates agreed with the club that they would pay €199,000 for both players' clauses - a price believe to believed to be well below what City may have reasonably expected to receive in current market conditions.

Having secured the money for Browne and Maguire's contractual obligations, Cork then re-approached the FAI to renew their Premier Division licence, with two hours to go. The approach was refused due to concerns over their outstanding bank debts and the club re-approached Ridsdale who upped Preston's offer for the two players.

The new offer included €450,000 for the terms regarding Browne and Maguire, as well as €150,000 for first refusal on a takeover of Cork City."

https://www.offtheball.com/soccer/cork-city-two-hours-away-going-bust-takeover-update-972571

I'm trying to get my head around this. Preston upped their initial offer, as Cork were going to go to the wall. However, if the club went to the wall the clauses would have been worthless. Upping the offer only makes sense to me if Preston already consider Cork as being their club. Am I missing something?

That article has addtional detail from within the room, but its incomplete. You should separate Preston and their owner Trevor Hemmings. Mr. Hemmings apparently spent a lot of his childhood in Cork, and owns Trabolgan as well as a Stud in Kanturk. He was trying to save the club.

On top of that - the clauses would not be worthless if the club went bankrupt. They would be assets used to pay debts in liquidation. Should Browne (more likely) or Maguire be sold on in the future Preston would need to pay the agreed percentage to however owns the rights to those clauses. There was an ongoing court case relating to the Kevin Long (I think, could be another player to be honest) clause sold by CCIFL (by Tom Coughlan) several years after CCIFL went out of business.

[nr637]

If Jonathan O Brien wasnt a TD do the Cork City fans think that the financial scenario would have still happened?

Some would say JOB wasn't a TD when he was a TD!

[ltfc_2004]

I wonder is Marty trying to suggest that perhaps JOB was a little too vocal in his criticism of the FAI, JD and the board and it came back to bite Cork in the arse !! but that is just a guess. I am sure Marty can clarify ...

[Nesta99]

2 hours!? Wow! Would the FAI have really pushed Cork out considering the major hassle and bad publicity. If they can grant a licence based on plans for necessary stadium criteria surely they could have granted a licence based on restructured debt managment. Might have meant relegation and tearing up contracts to go amatuer etc. It's still hard to get the head around how close it got and how it wasnt all the talk of sports media. It is a real stroke if luck that there was essentially a willing benefactor.

[Martinho II]

I wonder is Marty trying to suggest that perhaps JOB was a little too vocal in his criticism of the FAI, JD and the board and it came back to bite Cork in the arse !! but that is just a guess. I am sure Marty can clarify ...

Spot on ltfc_2004 JOB was extremely critical of the FAI runnings. He probably meant well but had no idea of what was going to happen.

[Martinho II]

Some would say JOB wasn't a TD when he was a TD!

He probably thought he was overseeing Foras!

[sbgawa]

I'm surprised he did'nt bail out Cork himself using money from the sinn fein magic money tree :)

[colonelwest]

Serious questions for the old board and JC to answer, both of whom since the new board came have been sniping from the wings towards the new board several times in the media, in my opinion. All gone quiet from them in recent times funnily enough now. Whatever about the VAT issue with Revenue, what the hell happened to the income earned from Europe and the gate receipts when Cork were getting 5/6k on average home attendances? The wage bill, even with JC having a big squad couldn't have eaten all that up in 18 months? We're talking around 2m quid or more at a conservative estimate?

Also, I'm baffled at the sniping and shade being thrown at JO'B in the thread. You'd be hard pressed to find someone with better intentions towards both football in Cork and Irish football in general and his (amongst one or two notable others) skewering of the FAI in front of the Oireachtas was absolutely fantastic work. Who gives a fiddlers if he is or was a Shinner or otherwise.

[outspoken]

Serious questions for the old board and JC to answer, both of whom since the new board came have been sniping from the wings towards the new board several times in the media, in my opinion. All gone quiet from them in recent times funnily enough now. Whatever about the VAT issue with Revenue, what the hell happened to the income earned from Europe and the gate receipts when Cork were getting 5/6k on average home attendances? The wage bill, even with JC having a big squad couldn't have eaten all that up in 18 months? We're talking around 2m quid or more at a conservative estimate?

Also, I'm baffled at the sniping and shade being thrown at JO'B in the thread. You'd be hard pressed to find someone with better intentions towards both football in Cork and Irish football in general and his (amongst one or two notable others) skewering of the FAI in front of the Oireachtas was absolutely fantastic work. Who gives a fiddlers if he is or was a Shinner or otherwise.

Well said, clear anti SF agenda by some posters here

[pineapple stu]

Serious questions for the old board and JC to answer, both of whom since the new board came have been sniping from the wings towards the new board several times in the media, in my opinion. All gone quiet from them in recent times funnily enough now. Whatever about the VAT issue with Revenue
Another question on the VAT issue actually is why the settlement was published. Revenue guidelines (https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/press-office/press-releases/2019/pr-100919-revenue-publishes-list-of-tax-defaulters.aspx) on publication of settlements is that "Settlements are published when the extensive voluntary disclosure options are not availed of and the default arises because of careless or deliberate behaviour". Would Revenue have gone after Cork a bit harder as a result, with the impact we have seen?

[White Horse]

I read with interest that Trevor Hemmings, the property tycoon, has "expressed an interest in purchasing Turner’s Cross according to the secretary of the Munster Football Association, Ger Delaney."

https://www.echolive.ie/corksport/Hemmings-expresses-an-official-interest-in-purchasing-Turners-Cross-from-the-Munster-Football-Association-ee22829c-0717-4a61-aaf5-e15509724b98-ds

[Nesta99]

Property tycoon and League of Ireland ground - The clouds of people thinking there's an 'ulterior agenda' are gathering...

As for an anti SF agenda its SF like to think there is an anti SF agenda! Pretty common to question how any socialist party will get the finances to fulfill their manifesto promises, hardly unique to SF. O'Brien and Munster were probably the 2 that pushed the FAI goons hardest at Oireachtas committee.

[Real ale Madrid]

Property tycoon and League of Ireland ground - The clouds of people thinking there's an 'ulterior agenda' are gathering...

As for an anti SF agenda its SF like to think there is an anti SF agenda! Pretty common to question how any socialist party will get the finances to fulfill their manifesto promises, hardly unique to SF. O'Brien and Munster were probably the 2 that pushed the FAI goons hardest at Oireachtas committee.

Lets keep the thread on Topic. JO'B's leanings politically have nothing to do with the thread title.

[disgruntled]

I'm surprised he did'nt bail out Cork himself using money from the sinn fein magic money tree :)

I'm sure if he did you would have had plenty to say about it 😏

[sbgawa]

I'd be happy to see cork bailed out by anyone, we've all Been there, and it is the rebel county after all.
That guy Hemmings is rooted in the Cork Community and massively wealthy, as benefactors or potential owners in full or part he looks a good bet.

[A N Mouse]

I read with interest that Trevor Hemmings, the property tycoon, has "expressed an interest in purchasing Turner’s Cross according to the secretary of the Munster Football Association, Ger Delaney."

https://www.echolive.ie/corksport/Hemmings-expresses-an-official-interest-in-purchasing-Turners-Cross-from-the-Munster-Football-Association-ee22829c-0717-4a61-aaf5-e15509724b98-ds

Peter Ridsdale?

Didn't realise he was allowed near a football club

Oh, he might be eligible to become a company director again soon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Ridsdale#Disqualification)

[Martinho II]

Peter Ridsdale?

Didn't realise he was allowed near a football club

Oh, he might be eligible to become a company director again soon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Ridsdale#Disqualification)

Yeah hes involved with Preston at present.