Will Smallbone M Southampton b.2000

[Razors left peg]

Ok I see my overall point has been lost here. It's not that Galatasary would be the perfect move and I'm advocating that he should go there as 1st choice. The point I was trying to make is that we are still far too focused on English football and that I think some people are too dismissive of other leagues. I've also made this point on other threads so I don't want to be too repetitive. The Idah thread is good example, talk of comparing the standard to English football, and not looking at the experience Idah got from the atmosphere of those Old Firm games and cup final. You don't get atmosphere and pressure like that at Middlesboro vs Coventry.

Jake O'Brien similarly, the atmosphere at some of those Lyon games is incredible. English football has become pretty soul less in many ways. Many leagues across Europe have fans that live their entire life around football. My family in Portugal for example are Sporting fans from grandmother through all the cousins and kids, it's the main topic of conversation around every get together. And that's the norm there, most families are the exact same. I don't think that's really the same throughout the Premiership for example. There's videos going around Social media this week comparing the Man City fans celebrations to the Ajax fans.

It does seem to be happening that more of our players are going to Europe for football and I think the experiences they gain from that will benefit us. We as a fan base need to stop trying to figure out if Excelsior could be L1 or Championship

[Stuttgart88]

It'd be great if O'Brien opened foreign scouts to the possibilities of signing more Irish. But I think the ownership links between Palace and Lyon made that move possible rather than creative scouting.

[Razors left peg]

It'd be great if O'Brien opened foreign scouts to the possibilities of signing more Irish. But I think the ownership links between Palace and Lyon made that move possible rather than creative scouting.

Troy to Excelsior. All the younger lads that have gone to Italy. I see today the younger Umeh brother linked to Benfica again... it's changing slowly and my point again, is simply that we as fans need to do a better job at embracing that instead of seeing everything through the prizm of English football

[pineapple stu]

In fairness, for Parrott (and Idah) the move abroad made sense because they didn't make any impact at Championship level. It's a very tough, competitive league. For those two guys, they've certainly dropped a level in terms of the lower end of who they're playing while also giving them a few big games, and it seems to have helped them get some confidence back.

That doesn't mean it's a model for all - Sammie for example has had an exceptional Championship season and it makes every sense to look to the Premier rather than moving abroad (and then case against a move to Turkey has been well made by others)

Then there's the likes of Zefi, Nolan, Abankwah and Johanssen, who haven't gained anything by playing abroad. Or Heffernan and Ryan who moved abroad but then signed for an English team. It's a mixed bag. No different to football as a career in general. And I think it's been shown that younger players benefit from playing at home until 21/22 sort of age, so we're always playing catch-up there given the state of the LoI.

I wouldn't use atmosphere to judge leagues btw. Yeah, the top games in Scotland and Holland and Portugal can have huge crowds and special atmospheres. Then for the next couple of months you could playing in front of crowds under 10k.

[Razors left peg]

I wouldn't use atmosphere to judge leagues btw. Yeah, the top games in Scotland and Holland and Portugal can have huge crowds and special atmospheres. Then for the next couple of months you could playing in front of crowds under 10k.

Most of those 10k crowds would probably have a bigger noise than 80k in Old Trafford these days, or the mausoleum that is the City of Manchester stadium. Or maybe the 11K at Bournemouth or Luton games would be better? Ever watch QPR, Blackburn, Rotherham and some others in Championship who often have half empty stadiums?

As I said, its also not just about the games themselves, its about how everyone in a lot of these countries live for football every single day. That brings a completely different pressure

[Stuttgart88]

In fairness, for Parrott (and Idah) the move abroad made sense because they didn't make any impact at Championship level. It's a very tough, competitive league. For those two guys, they've certainly dropped a level in terms of the lower end of who they're playing while also giving them a few big games, and it seems to have helped them get some confidence back.

That doesn't mean it's a model for all - Sammie for example has had an exceptional Championship season and it makes every sense to look to the Premier rather than moving abroad (and then case against a move to Turkey has been well made by others)

Then there's the likes of Zefi, Nolan, Abankwah and Johanssen, who haven't gained anything by playing abroad. Or Heffernan and Ryan who moved abroad but then signed for an English team. It's a mixed bag. No different to football as a career in general. And I think it's been shown that younger players benefit from playing at home until 21/22 sort of age, so we're always playing catch-up there given the state of the LoI.

I wouldn't use atmosphere to judge leagues btw. Yeah, the top games in Scotland and Holland and Portugal can have huge crowds and special atmospheres. Then for the next couple of months you could playing in front of crowds under 10k.the key point is that they’re leagues that are good enough to supply international teams better than ours with starters so we shouldn’t sneer at them. Pro football is a tough career to break into. We should be celebrating successes rather than trying to qualify them with ifs and buts.

Thete’s no one route to fulfilling your potential but there has been one consistent route taken by our players for the last 50 years, England, and surely the evidence is that it yields mixed results. When I see tier 2 and 3 opponents’ line ups and see the variation the players’ clubs and countries it poses obvious questions in my mind.

[Eirambler]

There's benefits to playing further abroad than England, but it's far too easy to just take that to mean that anywhere else is better than England. Which certainly isn't true in the case of Turkey.

[pineapple stu]

the key point is that they’re leagues that are good enough to supply international teams better than ours with starters so we shouldn’t sneer at them.
I don't think anyone's really sneering at them in fairness. I do see a bit of a bias on here at times towards foreign leagues - this idea that someone would be better suited to the style in Italy/Holland/Spain/wherever. I don't really buy into that. Partly multiculturalism has paradoxically destroyed an awful lot of the differences between leagues so they're increasingly much of a muchness, and partly because while Parrott/Idah have done well with a change of scenery, that reflects the fact they couldn't really cut it at Championship level. That doesn't change the point that for those guys, a complete change of scenery was a very good option of course. Scotland and Holland have given weaker teams to play against, and some big games to play in too; it's been a good fit. But someone like Szmodics who's flying up the ranks would, I think, be better off moving up a division in the natural way of things than moving to the other end of the continent, to a new culture which may take time to adapt to.

Yes, moving to England has mixed success. I don't think that's an inherent weakness with English clubs as an option. I think it's more because football has mixed success, and also because of the huge weaknesses in the Irish game - players move across far too young and as youth prospects rather than genuine first-team players, and that naturally leads to mixed results. But players moving to Italy/Spain have had mixed success too.

The Championship is a very good league. The Premier is a big step up and is the best in the world. I've no problems with our players aspiring to play in it. One of the easiest ways to do that is to play in the division below it and get promoted.


Most of those 10k crowds would probably have a bigger noise than 80k in Old Trafford these days, or the mausoleum that is the City of Manchester stadium.
Maybe, but even then, so what? It's a nice experience, sure, but if it's a poor league then it's still a poor league. Tallaght might have a better atmostphere than Old Trafford; doesn't mean we'd want our players to go on loan to Rovers.

Obviously it depends on a player's career stage. For some it'll be a good stepping stone, for others (Pádraig Amond for example) playing in the lower echelons of Portugal was just his level, like the English fourth tier subsequently was.

[Stuttgart88]

I don't think anyone's really sneering at them in fairness. I do see a bit of a bias on here at times towards foreign leagues - this idea that someone would be better suited to the style in Italy/Holland/Spain/wherever. I don't really buy into that. Ah I think there really has been sneering and I think there has been a bias towards England where results have been mixed (for whatever reason) against a move abroad where the sample size is too small to form judgment yet. And of course the way we produce and export players is a problem, but I think there's merit in at least suggesting that other leagues are an undertested option for our players and of being suspicious that English football mightn't be (and historically mightn't have been) the best option for many of our players.

I'd love to hear what players from other tier 2 / tier 3 countries who have been successful outside of home countries and UK say.

Only time will tell of course.

[Razors left peg]

I don't think anyone's really sneering at them in fairness. I do see a bit of a bias on here at times towards foreign leagues - this idea that someone would be better suited to the style in Italy/Holland/Spain/wherever. I don't really buy into that. Partly multiculturalism has paradoxically destroyed an awful lot of the differences between leagues so they're increasingly much of a muchness, and partly because while Parrott/Idah have done well with a change of scenery, that reflects the fact they couldn't really cut it at Championship level. That doesn't change the point that for those guys, a complete change of scenery was a very good option of course. Scotland and Holland have given weaker teams to play against, and some big games to play in too; it's been a good fit. But someone like Szmodics who's flying up the ranks would, I think, be better off moving up a division in the natural way of things than moving to the other end of the continent, to a new culture which may take time to adapt to.



You realize of course that England is also a foreign league? To say there is not much of a difference between how football is played in different leagues across Europe shows that its pretty pointless discussing this further, an understanding of the subject matter is important.

[pineapple stu]

You realize of course that England is also a foreign league?
Yes - fairly clear I was talking about continental clubs as opposed to English clubs. Hence "Italy/Holland/Spain/wherever"


To say there is not much of a difference between how football is played in different leagues across Europe shows that its pretty pointless discussing this further, an understanding of the subject matter is important.
There's increasingly less and less difference. That undeniable.

[Razors left peg]

Yes - fairly clear I was talking about continental clubs as opposed to English clubs. Hence "Italy/Holland/Spain/wherever"


There's increasingly less and less difference. That undeniable.

It's quite denialable in fact

[John83]

Style and coaching techniques have homogonised substantially. The days of Arsene Wenger bringing arcane knowledge of not eating too many kebabs from the continent are gone. The main difference now is that Irish people tend to emigrate within the anglosphere.

[pineapple stu]

Style and coaching techniques have homogonised substantially.
And really, how could that not be the case when you look at the likes of Guardiola, Mourinho, Benitez, Pochettino, etc, jumping from one top league to another with regularity, coaching squads where usually a significant majority of players aren't from the club's/league's country, and working off the same match data (possibly even the same apps) as in other leagues too?

[Razors left peg]

Jesus, it's obvious who doesn't watch any football outside the Premiership anyway I suppose

[pineapple stu]

Good argument, well made...

(FWIW, I've been to league games in about 20 European countries, plus another 5 countries across Asia/North America)

[Razors left peg]

Good argument, well made...

(FWIW, I've been to league games in about 20 European countries, plus another 5 countries across Asia/North America)
Maybe you should write a book about it

[OwlsFan]

What would Pineapple Stu call the book? What about "When life gives you lemons, sell them and buy a pineapple" ?

[Razors left peg]

What would Pineapple Stu call the book? What about "When life gives you lemons, sell them and buy a pineapple" ?

There's something in there about lemons and bitter that I cant use cos of recent infractions :)

[pineapple stu]

Maybe you should write a book about it
Maybe.

But in the meantime, feel free to make an argument to support your point and oppose the ones me and John83 have made.

[tetsujin1979]

Mises out today with a hamstring injury
1834908198488162634

[rebelmusic]

Got a run out for 25 mins tonight along with 90 mins for Manning

[tetsujin1979]

Scored against Liverpool
1898404133490532537

[Eirambler]

And then gave away a penalty.

[liamoo11]

And then gave away a penalty.

I was at the game today was very impressed with smallbone, excellent on the ball and worked hard, closed pff passing lanes really well. I'd like him in a box 4 in midfield with Collins, molumby and Knight with a back four of obrien, o shea Scales and Manning with ferguson and parott up top

[Trequartista20]

Missed today's match with Wolves with a groin injury, leaving his manager to bemoan his lack of physical robustness:


'His manager added: "I think he did really well against Chelsea and against Liverpool. Technically he’s really good. His weakness is his physically and we’re starting to work on that in the gym. But the technique he has."'


https://www.southamptonfc.com/en/news/article/bednarek-and-smallbone-to-miss-wolves

Must be a doubt for the upcoming international window.

Manning started and by all accounts did well again today. Strange that he's continually overlooked. O'Shea's influence, you suspect.

[Olé Olé]

Missed today's match with Wolves with a groin injury, leaving his manager to bemoan his lack of physical robustness:



https://www.southamptonfc.com/en/news/article/bednarek-and-smallbone-to-miss-wolves

Must be a doubt for the upcoming international window.

Manning started and by all accounts did well again today. Strange that he's continually overlooked. O'Shea's influence, you suspect.

One of the skinniest players I've seen in an Ireland shirt and given he's 25 it is something that should have been addressed earlier. Whatever about injury prevention, I would have thought working on your weaknesses is the simplest way to improve season on season as a footballer and his apparent weakness would have appeared to be a weakness...

[Eirambler]

He has been a steady developer year on year in other areas for the last few years, after getting a few EPL games when he was younger his loan at Stoke brought him on a lot. Then he was an important player for Southampton in their promotion run last season. He's still not really Premier League quality as shown this season though, but if he can now improve the physical side of his game that might help him bridge the gap.

[Acornvilla]

There are some side effects to Alopecia (which he's spoken about before) that can include fatigue and muscle weakness/injuries. He might just struggle to build himself up physically in general regardless of how hard he works on it, on balance he could be considered to be doing incredibly well to be where he is already given his health/injury history.