A Political slant to the game on June 4th........

[Junior]

taken from another forum.........

Support IRELAND and PALESTINE on June 4th

Ireland play Israel in the second leg of the World Cup Qualifiers in Lansdowne Rd. on Saturday, June 4th.

As Palestinian solidarity campaigners and football supporters, we want to use this important sporting occasion to bring attention to the plight of the Palestinian population who, for the past 38 years, have endured a brutal military occupation that includes curfews, closures, checkpoints and deliberate destruction of homes, civilian infrastructure and farmland. In effect - ethnic cleansing.

We are urging those attending the Ireland -v- Israel match to show solidarity by displaying the flag of Palestine, so that our protest will be seen worldwide by people watching the match.

Racism in Israeli football
The Israeli government counters charges of racism and ill-treatment of Palestinians by pointing to the inclusion of two Arab-Israeli players in the Israeli team. In reality, these team members have been subjected to vile racist taunting at both Israeli league and international matches by sections of Israeli football fans. "No Arabs, no terrorism" is one such chant regularly heard at games.

Repression of Palestinian Football Team
Whatever about the abuse meted out to Israeli players of Palestinian descent, the situation faced by the Palestinian team as a result of Israeli apartheid is a lot more serious. Severe travel restrictions have hampered the team’s attempt to qualify for the World Cup. Israel prevented 5 players from travelling to the World Cup qualifier against Uzbekistan. Team members are regularly detained at checkpoints and prevented from travelling to and from practice and games.

Dying for the Game
The Israeli government’s commitment to ‘fair play’ in sport was witnessed most recently in Rafah refugee camp in Gaza. On the 9th of April 2005, a group of boys were playing football in an open area when the ball was kicked towards the border fence. When the kids ran after it, Israeli soldiers opened fire at them, killing two, aged 14 and 15. It is conceivable that by Kick Off on June 4th, other such atrocities will have occurred.

Politics and Sport
Some people say that politics and sport don’t mix and that politics should be kept out of sport. We argue that the two are often inseparable. The families and friends of the kids in Rafah and across Palestine might tend to agree.

As sports fans ourselves, we can point to examples in history where sporting events have been used by callous governments to influence their political standing abroad. The international rugby tour by the South African Springboks was intended to bolster the image of apartheid abroad. The economic and sporting boycott of South Africa in the 1980s had a huge effect in raising public awareness and helped to bring down Apartheid.

SOME FACTS
o Over 3,600 Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli army since September 2000. 722 of these were children.

o Over 12,500 homes demolished and over 60,000 people made homeless.

o 87 sick and injured, including children, have died at checkpoints as a result of being denied passage to hospitals.

o The restriction of movement and the deliberate destruction of Palestinian infrastructure have meant in the almost total collapse of the Palestinian economy.

++++++++++++++

We urge all Irish people, and especially football fans, to join the campaign to highlight injustice in Palestine by flying the flag on June 4th. Flags will be distributed outside Lansdowne Road.

We ask fans to bring in flags and banners and display them during the match.

++++++++++++++

Events on June 4th in Dublin

Central Bank, Dame St. * 3pm * Street Theatre + March to

Israeli Embassy * 5pm * Picket

Lansdowne Road * from 6pm * Leafleting & flags distribution for Match

++++++++++++++

Want to help the campaign?
Phone 085 7207775 or e-mail flagsforfootball@eircom.net

[Donal81]

While I don't think you can separate football and politics, I won't go in for this one, thanks. The Israeli-Palestine conflict is a miserable one but is certainly not a black and white one, it's not 'Israeli bad, Palestinian good'. I think both could have done a lot more for peace so I'll stay well out of this one.

[pete]

I don't believe people inside the ground should be using occasion for political statements. Likewise i would object to any boing of the israeli nation anthem too.

Can do whatever you choose outside the ground as its a free country.

[pineapple stu]

I don't believe people inside the ground should be using occasion for political statements.
I always wondered about that. People - especially those in power - are always saying you can't mix sport and politics. The reality is sport (football in particular) is about the only place you'd get 30,000 people in one place with huge national overtones - countries playing, national anthems, etc. My cynical mind says that those people in power have a lot to gain from discouraging protests/political statements at such mass gatherings - keep the masses quiet and all that. I don't see any problem using sporting events to make a political point (not as if our politicians listen to us whenever we try to rationalise with them anyway), so long as it doesn't take over the event. Boo/sit down for the anthem, raise a banner and then watch the match.

It obviously goes without saying that you have to be consistent - China, the US, Turkey, England, etc., etc.

Just my view anyway...

[Condex]

Paste it, somewhere else you bl**dy tree hugger!!!

[4tothefloor]

Yeah, lets give Israel even more incentive to get a result by waving Palestinian flags in their faces :rolleyes: Do what you like outside the ground and in the city centre, but i'd draw the line at handing out flags and encouraging hostility. Ireland is a neutral nation, so lets keep it that way

[Fergie's Son]

While I don't think you can separate football and politics, I won't go in for this one, thanks. The Israeli-Palestine conflict is a miserable one but is certainly not a black and white one, it's not 'Israeli bad, Palestinian good'. I think both could have done a lot more for peace so I'll stay well out of this one.

Let me parrot Donal81's excellent post. It's not our place to get involved in what is a very messy situation. Israel has a number of Arab players on their team so I am not exactly sure what the OP is getting at. We don't need to politicize sport any further than it already is.

[Closed Account 2]

Wasnt the guy who scored against us an Arab ?

[Green Tribe]

Wasnt the guy who scored against us an Arab ?

Yes he is. All I can say is WISE UP!!!!! to these gobshiiites!! :mad: I will hopefully get a ticket for this game(I'll be there anyway) hope I don't see any of these tree-huggers, I'll find it hard to bite my tongue, it is not the place for this at a football game, this is an important game, focus should be on one thing only, getting behind our team and winning. Clear off!!!!!! :mad:

[tricky_colour]

Rather the get into the rights and wrongs of the political situation in the
region, I think the best thing the Irish supporters can do is get on with
the business of supporting their team.
If we get a good result over there I am sure the Palestinians will be as pleased
as the Irish.
Any kind of protest would probably only serve to fire up the Israeli players
anyway so it would probably be counter effective.
Putting Israel out of the finals should be protest enough for anyone and that
is what we should concentrate on, its a simple non-political aim.

[stickyjoe]

leave the politics outside the ground. as far as i`m aware the israeli players have done nothing wrong. should be shown the same respect as any other team that comes to landsdowne

[Stuttgart88]

There's only one slant to the game I'm bothered about.

[Donal81]

What do ye make of this?

The Irish Times - Monday, May 17, 1999

Sport and politics a lethal mixture
By TOM HUMPHRIES


I had just finished telling my shocked partner the details of my twenty seven year love affair with sweeties when Liveline came on. Joe was struggling. Nothing identifies the character of the lesser brained sports fan than the shrill call, usually heard in the long grass of radio phone-in programmes, to the effect that sport and politics don't mix. Everytime we hear the light refrain the thought occurs that naivete and stupidity have at last been mated successfully.


If you went to the game in Dalymount in 1955 between Yugoslavia and Ireland you engaged in a political act. And well done. If you feel, however, that permitting Yugoslavia to play football here next month is no different or that waving a white hankerchief during the playing of the Yugoslav national anthem will somehow make things alright you are sadly deluded.

By playing against Yugoslavia, by attending the game and treating it like any other match we will be engaging in a political act even more shameful than that which we engaged in May 1974 when the national team went to Santiago, Chile and played in the national stadium before the blood had dried on the slaughter which occurred there.

WE became the first country to visit there in the space of a year. We went for a friendly. There was a lesson there already.

The Soviet Union were supposed to visit for a World Cup game the previous November but conceded the points instead. Chile duly kicked off and scored into the empty Soviet goal but it was the Russians who emerged with all the honour.

It doesn't really matter in the current instance whether or not you approve of NATO's hawkish, morally imperfect behaviour around the Balkans or if you are disturbed by the inconsistency with which the policemen of the world wave their truncheon, the fact is that we are being asked to partake in the frivolity of international football at a time when the state of the rival team is on the one hand being bombed and on the other is engaged in unspeakable acts of ethnic cleansing.

Lets not pretend that right now sport and politics don't mix, Yugoslav players all over Europe have made it patently clear that they do mix by striking, by displaying banners, by urging each other to fight for the homeland.

Lets not flatter ourselves by thinking that the waving of white handkerchiefs in Lansdowne Road will be a topic of alarmed conversation in the bunkers of Belgrade or that Yugoslav television will linger wondrously on our peevish little faces as we make our facile little gesture. Let us not effect to imagine that the game won't be exhibited as an example of the Milosevic regime's happy relationship with another small and oft beleaguered country.

Sport and politics has always mixed in Yugoslavia. Soccer and politics have been siamese twins since the foundation of the state. The first club to be founded in Yugoslavia back in 1911 were Hadjuk Split named after local fighters who had railed bloodily against the Ottoman empire.

This is a country where teams play for the Marshall Tito cup, where they abandoned half completed games in 1980 when Tito died, where partizan are still the army team and where Milosevic stopped his comrade and rival Arkan (Zeljko Raznatovic) from buying Red Star Belgrade because ownership of the club would give Arkan too great a power base in the capital.

Instead Arkan whose Serbian Volunteer Guard or Tigers (formed from the dregs of Red Star supporters clubs) were to the fore in the slaughter of muslims throughout Bosnia and have been reported to be in action in Kosovo bought an apartment which overlooks the Red Star ground and a team which now rivals Red Star.

He took over Obilic two years ago pumping in sufficient cash to get them to the head of the Yugoslav first division.

(The club by the way is named for a Serb hero who stabbed a Turkish commander to death before the battle of Kosovo Polje in 1389).

IT'S NOT just cash which has bouyed what was once a humble division two team. There has been a good mix of bribery and corruption as well. The man they call Commandant has been seen grinning with amusement as the thugs who patrol his terraces chant "score and we'll kill you" at rival forwards.

Two of the panel selected to play Croatia last month were from Obilic. No doubt the chattels of Arkan will be selected for Dublin too.

Sport and politics don't mix bleat the woolly heads on the airwaves. We have no quarrel with the ordinary people of Serbia they say grandly. Well perhaps the worst of them are only obeying orders and swallowing propaganda but we have an obligation to ourselves not to allow soccer and our team to be fed into the grinder.

We owe sport a duty of decency.

Ask the dead of Vukovar and Bjeljina where muslim civilians were slaughtered by Arkan if they might make a murmur about this game proceeding as mass graves are being filled elsewhere. In Bjeljina it was that Serb TV filmed Arkan leaning across the body of a dead muslim to embrace Biljana Plavsic, soon to become serb president of Bosnia.

Before we wave our hankies and do the Mexican wave why not ask the players of FC Pristina if they are currently over the moon?

Or what about the trembling refugees whom we grudgingly allow to seep into out bloated little country? What do they think of us playing footie with the boys from Belgrade? Do they fret that the linen in the corporate tents will be crisp enough for us to dine on?

No doubt the FAI have moral concerns here but the issues of fat money and three points appears to have paralysed them. The team just plays football, see. Yet when the socialite Diana of Wales died in a car crash a couple of years ago the team weren't beyond expressing their profound grief by wearing black armbands during a game in Iceland. And Mick McCarthy seems, regrettably, to have no difficulty misplacing his inate decency to appear grinning in newspaper shots taken outside a courtroom in which a journalist who once urged a Lansdowne Road crowd to boo Roy Keane had just been sueing another journalist.

Synthetic grief, issues of journalistic pique and the assisted sale of Opel motor cars are matters in which the team or management are permitted to take sides in. About ethnic cleansing they are perforce silent. If that is the case let the government put an end to it now.

Politics and sport always mix. In grants, in swimming inquiries, in civic receptions, in anthems, on days of sheer flagwaving nationalism. They mix. Always. It is time for politics to intervene on our behalf. After all the Irish team do not belong to the FAI, they represent all of us and take our name with them onto the field.



© The Irish Times

[NeilMcD]

I dont agree that we should bring the political situation to the game. Our efforts should be on supporting our team not on getting the backs of our opposition and rile them up even more. I do think comments like "tree huggers" is not helpful either. I always thought a tree hugger was an abusive term for somebody who is concerned with green and environmental issues. I dont see how this relates to protesting against Israel though. Lets get behind the team

[Junior]

Decent enough article.

I was at the game versus Yugoslavia but I don't recall 'white hankerchief waving' at their national anthem. did it happen?

[paul_oshea]

I do think comments like "tree huggers" is not helpful either

agreed. i dont know what a tree hugger is, i have never seen one, but if it is someone trying to compare people that love trees, with people protesting against the invasion and suppression of another country then they are two totally different things.

[Éanna]

Glad to see that someone has decided to organise some kind of protest. These Nazi scum shouldn't even be allowed into the country, never mind be allowed participate in world cup qualifiers. "ISRAEL" OUT :mad:

[livehead1]

i think i'll be supporting it. palestinians deserve our support. the IRA did plenty wrong in their time as well but the basis behind the arguement is in favour of palestine

[Green Tribe]

Fair enough, maybe I should not say tree-huggers, but what I meant was, these environmental TH, :D tend to latch on to any type of protest, it's like a day out for them, you know? Irish flag, not a Palestinian flag, it is an Ireland football game, :mad:

[paul_oshea]

hese Nazi scum shouldn't even be allowed into the country

hah????? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

ya its an ireland game i think that it is just stupid to be waving any palestinian flags.

[NeilMcD]

I think any sort of generalisations are dangerous, Comments like "All Irish are drunks" get people offended, so to tar all sort of political or environmental protest under the one brush is equally as offensive. I agree with political protest but just not inside a football match. I think it is very easy to throw around comments like tree huggers about people but hopefully you wont have to make a protest someday. Students, Nurses, Farmers etc all protest and all have the right to protest and to be honest I think that is a good thing, whether I agree with their view or not but the right to protest is part of any democracy.

[dr_peepee]

Release the hounds!!

[Éanna]

Fair enough, maybe I should not say tree-huggers, but what I meant was, these environmental TH, :D tend to latch on to any type of protest, it's like a day out for them, you know? Irish flag, not a Palestinian flag, it is an Ireland football game, :mad:
I'm no tree-hugger, or anything like it, but I cannot abide genocide, ethnic-cleansing and murder. Thats why I would support this protest 100%

[Green Tribe]

I have nothing against protests, but I don't like ones that are destructful and cause havoc. My main problem is those 'protesters' who are not genuinely there for the subject of the protest, just there cos they are rebellious and seem to get a thrill out of it.

[paul_oshea]

ethnic-cleansing and murder.

there is two sides to every coin, and three sides to every story. remember one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, and to say that going into a pub and blowing up a (certain type )group of people isnt a form of ethnic-cleansing in itself is wholly wrong.

[PaulB]

Glad to see that someone has decided to organise some kind of protest. These Nazi scum shouldn't even be allowed into the country, never mind be allowed participate in world cup qualifiers. "ISRAEL" OUT :mad:

get a bleedin' grip. You know all the Isreali team intimately to know they're nazi scum do you. Typical generalisation. So who the feck' is allowed into the country. By your way of thinking we wouldn't be allowed anywhere because we're all IRA scumbags..

Good luck to them. I was over at the way game, and found them to be great people, very friendly.

[paul_oshea]

My main problem is those 'protesters' who are not genuinely there for the subject of the protest, just there cos they are rebellious and seem to get a thrill out of it.

on that point does anyone remember the may day protests in london around 200 or 2001, when one of the "protesters" throws a chair through a mcdonalds window and teh same protestor is wearing a *gap hoodie? LOL :D

was this a paradox or irony in its purest form?

gap who it costs 27p to make a top from child labour! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Green Tribe]

I'm no tree-hugger, or anything like it, but I cannot abide genocide, ethnic-cleansing and murder. Thats why I would support this protest 100%

Atrocities like that are unacceptable, always, and I don't want to drag up the whole Israeli-Palestinian issue on this thread, because politics and football should be kept separate on this forum and on 4th June inside the stadium.

[PaulB]

I'm no tree-hugger, or anything like it, but I cannot abide genocide, ethnic-cleansing and murder. Thats why I would support this protest 100%

You can't abide murder but you're willing to take part in a protest waving palestinian flags.

By your generalizations all palestinians are suicide bombers, so whats the story?

[Stuttgart88]

If people want to protest do it away from the ground. By protesting within the ground you'd be dragging those who don't want to protest into the picture. Why not protest at the airport or ot the team hotel if you want to?

I want to go to the game, wear my colours, support my team and show respect for my opponents.

Protesting against the Israeli football team would be like protesting against the US or English football teams for their actions in Iraq - despite the fact that nearly 50% voted against Bush and the overwhelming majority of the British population was against the Iraqi invasion. My understanding is that there is a sizeable liberal / left movement in Israel who find the Israeli right's actions disgraceful too.

Will we protest against the French for the rise in the far right vote, the massacres of North Africans in the 60's, the unilateral destruction of parts of the Sth Pacific from nuclear testing etc.? There's barely a country in the world whose policies I don't find unpalatable in some respect but when I go to Lansdowne Road I go to watch my favourite football team.

I haven't heard one bad word said about the reception the Irish got in Israel & I don't see any reason why we shouldn't reciprocate.

I have strong political opinions but the only thing I give a sh1t about on June 4th is getting 3 points. I suggest those with other agendas stay away and let people whose priority is watching the game use their tickets.

[dr_peepee]

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!!!

[tiktok]

The only Flag I'll be waving is an Irish one.

Stuttgart88 sums it up well, we only had the Chinese here six weeks ago, didn't hear much protest then, but then I guess the middle east is more 'fashionable' in protest circles these days :rolleyes:

Donal81 is spot on, this isn't a black and white issue, and ill informed people thinking about booing a national anthem does our country no favours at all.

If anyone outside the ground asks me to support it, they'll have to answer a few of MY questions first.

[pineapple stu]

get a bleedin' grip. You know all the Isreali team intimately to know they're nazi scum do you.
I think his point is that the Israeli national team is - by definition, more or less - representing their country. When the national anthem plays, that represents the Israeli country and everything it stands for. When you stand and respect a country's anthem, you are standing and respecting everything that country stands for - in this case, terrorism, continual wilful ignorance of UN conventions, denying the Palestinians their right to their own land, etc. You can't just take the Israeli national team as being 11 people on a pitch. Tom Humphries' article (and I can't believe I'm about to type this...!) actually makes this pint very well.


Protesting against the Israeli football team would be like protesting against the US or English football teams for their actions in Iraq - despite the fact that nearly 50% voted against Bush and the overwhelming majority of the British population was against the Iraqi invasion.
Again, you're not protesting against the football team - have to make that distinction clear. You're protesting against the country, which is why I mentioned earlier that you'd only protest inside the ground at the national anthem, being the most tangible symbol of the country. As regards your main point, I think if it's shown to Israel (and its leaders, more importantly, who are making the decisions) wherever Israel travel that their actions are derided by everyone in the world, then there's... - well, more of a chance of something changing than if we do nothing.


Will we protest against the French for the rise in the far right vote, the massacres of North Africans in the 60's, the unilateral destruction of parts of the Sth Pacific from nuclear testing etc.?
a) No - that's democracy. What have they done as yet?
b) No - no point. You can't go back in time to protest at every little thing.
c) Yes - had we played them around the time of the event.


I haven't heard one bad word said about the reception the Irish got in Israel & I don't see any reason why we shouldn't reciprocate.
Because we don't invade other countries' land, blowing up their protestors and ignoring UN mandates to stop?


I think (will try and find somewhere which backs this up) that in South Africa, the international ban from all sports was one of the more important aspects which ultimately resulted in the fall of Apartheid. Obviously, there was political pressure, protests in their own land, etc. as well, but the sports ban has been acknowledged. That's UEFA's or FIFA's remit, obviously, but failing that...

[pineapple stu]

If anyone outside the ground asks me to support it, they'll have to answer a few of MY questions first.
Out of curiosity, what questions would they be?

[Metrostars]

The guys on the football team are just that. They are football players, not politicians or suicide bombers. And if the Palestinians on the Israeli team are so harshly treated as the original article suggested, then why do they bother. Did Abas Soan take off his jersey to reveal a "Free Palestine" tee shirt after he scored against us? And did he not appear to be quite joyous when he scored?

By protesting the Israeli Team, you will also be protesting against the palestinians who also play. And what will they make of that? It would be like protesting against the American team for the war in Iraq when you don't even know the views of the players on that subject.

When the US played in Panama last year in World Cup qualifying, there were plenty of banners such as "Osama is Here", and "Viva Osama", and "9/11 Dos". Smart stuff. Finished 1-1 but it didnt stop the Americans winning 6-0 in the return leg.

[Dotsy]

The Israeli team represent their country. They don't represent their government or its policies.I have no problem with people protesting against Israeli government action/policies. People have the opportunity to do this every day outside the Israeli embassy if they really want to.

[tiktok]

Out of curiosity, what questions would they be?

They may well be very simplistic but I'd ask them.....

How do you feel about suicide bombers deliberately targeting Israeli civilians?

Dop you think that the Palestinian leadership, especially under Yasser Arafat did enough to engage the Israeli's in discussions to end the conflict?

I read everyday about how impoverished the Palestinian peoples are, yet it's now clear that those in power possess huige sums of wealth, and there seems to be a constant supply of expensive weaponry, can you honestly say that the Palestinian leadership are 'victims'?

Have you ever asked an Israeli man or woman how they feel about the policies their government adopt?

Did you know that there are Arabs sitting in the Knesset?

Have you ever thought about how it feels to live under the threat of suicide bombings?

and my final Q...

Since you really want to mix sports and politics, can we discuss Yasser Arafat sending terrorists to the olympics to murder Israeli athletes?

Stu, I'm no fan of Israel, both sides need to make concessions. I remember reading a statistic that 7 palestinians die for every Israeli death. However, you can't judge this conflict it in those terms. It's not black and white.

I'm just really really opposed to bruinging this into football!

[Stuttgart88]

Stu - what if I had said "protesting in the presence of the Israeli football team" instead of "protesting at" them? My point is still the same: Israel is divided over the action it is taking in Palestine. The right-wingers hold the balance of power & determine policy, but it is by no means unanimously supported AFAIK.

I vehemently opposed the Iraqi war and I hate Bush, but I wouldn't boo or protest if the USA football team played in Dublin. The USA football team has never done much to offend me. Apart from jammy last-minute equalisers the Israeli football team hasn't either.

[Closed Account 2]

Out of curiosity, what questions would they be?

Well if I was at the match I'd ask why a protest for Israel, but not for other recent teams with bad human rights records? (e.g. China, Croatia, Turkey, Georgia, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Russia etc) because at the end of the day, if you embark upon organising something large-scale like this you need to be consistent.

[Paulie]

If people want to protest do it away from the ground. By protesting within the ground you'd be dragging those who don't want to protest into the picture. Why not protest at the airport or ot the team hotel if you want to?

I want to go to the game, wear my colours, support my team and show respect for my opponents.

Protesting against the Israeli football team would be like protesting against the US or English football teams for their actions in Iraq - despite the fact that nearly 50% voted against Bush and the overwhelming majority of the British population was against the Iraqi invasion. My understanding is that there is a sizeable liberal / left movement in Israel who find the Israeli right's actions disgraceful too.

Will we protest against the French for the rise in the far right vote, the massacres of North Africans in the 60's, the unilateral destruction of parts of the Sth Pacific from nuclear testing etc.? There's barely a country in the world whose policies I don't find unpalatable in some respect but when I go to Lansdowne Road I go to watch my favourite football team.

I haven't heard one bad word said about the reception the Irish got in Israel & I don't see any reason why we shouldn't reciprocate.

I have strong political opinions but the only thing I give a sh1t about on June 4th is getting 3 points. I suggest those with other agendas stay away and let people whose priority is watching the game use their tickets.

Well said that man.

[paul_oshea]

you cant just organise protests will nilly cf, or no one would ever take any of them seriouslly. you have to prioritise, and because to a lot of irish people they empathise with the palestinian conflict, because we have been in a very very similar situation, hence why they want to show their support by using this match as a stage/medium to bring this to the attention of many.

[NeilMcD]

To be honest I think Stutgart 88 has said it best, Protest all you like but keep it away from the ground. Organise it and protest outside the embassy or the airport or wherever but do not protest at the game. Will you be protesting against the Swiss for having Nazi bank accounts.

[pete]

Like probably most people here i have no liking for the Israeli state. However people protesting inside Lansdowne road are really just showing themselves up as hypocrites. At least the Israelis are a democratic country.

As mentioned already no one protested when the "communist" (in reality a totalitarian regime) chinese came to town.

Problem with sporting protests is where do you draw the line?

[Green Tribe]

True Pete.....So I assume most people here are against the idea of a protest at the game? ...Yes?.... Good :D

[Éanna]

Atrocities like that are unacceptable, always, and I don't want to drag up the whole Israeli-Palestinian issue on this thread, because politics and football should be kept separate on this forum and on 4th June inside the stadium.
Politics and football aren't separate. It would be lovely if they were two unrelated issues, but the simple fact is they're not. And anyone who says sport and politics don't mix is kidding themselves.


You can't abide murder but you're willing to take part in a protest waving palestinian flags.
Not willing to take part in it, but supportive of it. I won't be there anyway.


By your generalizations all palestinians are suicide bombers, so whats the story?
Where did I say that? The israeli army, represents the israeli state, which is voted for by the israeli people- it is a genocidal force for murder. (i.e. if they wanted a change in policy, they could vote for it) Palestinian terrorist groups are not elected by the people, and are therefore not representative of the palestinian people (not that they don't have support) i.e. they cannot vote to change them. Simple really.


Like probably most people here i have no liking for the Israeli state. However people protesting inside Lansdowne road are really just showing themselves up as hypocrites. At least the Israelis are a democratic country.
Pete, israel calls itself a democracy- its not. There might be "democratic" elections, but the majority of palestinians who SHOULD have the right to vote, are refugees, exiled by that government. Its easy to have a "democracy" when you banish all your opponents and deny them a vote :rolleyes:


As mentioned already no one protested when the "communist" (in reality a totalitarian regime) chinese came to town.

Problem with sporting protests is where do you draw the line?
I would differentiate between the two on one simple point: the Chinese govt gets a good deal of bad publicity, international condemnation from governments etc., for its crimes (and rightly so). Israel does not, simply because it is a US puppet and is therefore immune from condemnation or sanction- hence the need to make a bigger deal out of it.

[Green Tribe]

Atrocities like that are unacceptable, always, and I don't want to drag up the whole Israeli-Palestinian issue on this thread, because politics and football should be kept separate on this forum and on 4th June inside the stadium.

Eanna, I said they should be kept separate.....

[paul_oshea]

Israel does not, simply because it is a US puppet and is therefore immune from condemnation or sanction- hence the need to make a bigger deal out of it.

its not necessarily a puppet state, you must remember that jews hold a lot of power in america, partiuclarly in the larger corporations which members can sway congress members etc. Israel is also a backdoor to the middle east for america, america has endorsed and funded Mossad, and used it to get information on arab countries as the CIA acquire all information they acquire.

[liam88]

I'm no tree-hugger, or anything like it, but I cannot abide genocide, ethnic-cleansing and murder. Thats why I would support this protest 100%
But you can abide murdering innocent athletes competing in the Olympics? Or little kids in crowded market place?
Realise that many Palestinian atrocities are just as bad as Israeli atroctiies-a life is a life whether it's Palestinian, Israeli, Arab, Muslim or Jew!
Mabye the Palestinians have a right to fight back? Did the RIRA have a right to blow up Omagh.
I wouldn't get involved in this.
Going off a bit don't forget that Israel was formed in the wake of the worst genocide the world has ever seen and memories run long. Doesn't justify what goes on but emphasises how there are multiple sides to every story. To call Israelis "nazi scum" after what their people went through is just cruel as well a biggoted and disrespectful.
I can see where you are coming from-really I can, I've felt passionatly about the North especially who hasn't? But your looking at it with a closed mind. Growing up in England with a family who had suffered at the hands of the IRA I grew up with IRA=bad. When I got a bit older and discovered Irish Republicanism I felt angry and passionatly Republican. Then I researched it through books, the internet, tv and other people-including guys on here. Now i'd say i've got a pretty balanced view on this.
You are older and more experienced than me-you shouldn't have such a black and white view.

[Éanna]

Eanna, I said they should be kept separate.....
Maybe they should be, I dunno. But the fact is that they AREN'T. What should be, and what is are two very different things.




But you can abide murdering innocent athletes competing in the Olympics? Or little kids in crowded market place?
Realise that many Palestinian atrocities are just as bad as Israeli atroctiies-a life is a life whether it's Palestinian, Israeli, Arab, Muslim or Jew!
Mabye the Palestinians have a right to fight back? Did the RIRA have a right to blow up Omagh.
I wouldn't get involved in this
FFS do you actually read anything before you reply? Where did I say I could "abide" murder of athletes or kids? Nowhere- murder is always wrong. You're either deliberately misinterpreting me, or else you just don't understand what I'm saying. My point is this: murder/terrorism is always wrong. But the difference is that Israeli murder/terrorism is carried out on behalf of the country by an army- and people actually vote for this, and still claim to be a democracy. I'm not saying one murder is worse than another, or one terrorist is less evil than another- because that would be total cráp. What I am saying is that israel has not right to call itself a democratic state while it behaves like this.


its not necessarily a puppet state, you must remember that jews hold a lot of power in america, partiuclarly in the larger corporations which members can sway congress members etc. Israel is also a backdoor to the middle east for america, america has endorsed and funded Mossad, and used it to get information on arab countries as the CIA acquire all information they acquire.
Thats exactly WHY its a puppet state. You're right saying there is a strong jewish lobby in the US, and therefore the US supports israel. Without US support, israel would not exist, could not exist- sounds like a puppet state to me!

[Éanna]

Going off a bit don't forget that Israel was formed in the wake of the worst genocide the world has ever seen and memories run long. Doesn't justify what goes on but emphasises how there are multiple sides to every story. To call Israelis "nazi scum" after what their people went through is just cruel as well a biggoted and disrespectful.Ever hear the saying "two wrongs don't make a right"?! The genocide the jews went through in the 1930's and 1940's was a terrible, unimaginable horror, and deservedly had the sympathy of the world for that reason. For them to then perpetrate a genocide on the palestinian people only a few decades later is disgusting, and an insult to the memory of all jews who suffered from Nazism. Those who perpetrate these acts on the palestinians are every bit as bad as the Nazi's who did it to their fellow jews, if not worse because they have failed to learn the lessons of history.


I can see where you are coming from-really I can, I've felt passionatly about the North especially who hasn't? But your looking at it with a closed mind. Growing up in England with a family who had suffered at the hands of the IRA I grew up with IRA=bad. When I got a bit older and discovered Irish Republicanism I felt angry and passionatly Republican. Then I researched it through books, the internet, tv and other people-including guys on here.
I'm not looking at it with a closed mind at all. I've made my decision based on the evidence- i.e. murder/terrorism is wrong. I will always condemn it.


You are older and more experienced than me-you shouldn't have such a black and white view.
Why not? It is black and white. What Israel is doing is wrong- thats an indisputable fact IMO.