Switzerland v Republic of Ireland - Geneva - 15th October 2019 - Euro 2020 Qualifier

[Fixer82]

Don't like Mick's post-match interview. We played a totally untested system in the first half, he changed it at half time and we played marginally better. And in the interview he's saying it's mostly the players' fault that they played bad in the first half.

Did you ever see a top manager like Wenger or Ferguson throw his players under the bus like that? I sure as hell never did.

I didn’t find anything wrong with it.
He said he can’t accept responsibility for professional players not being able to pass 5 yards.
The players have to stand up and accept that they were very poor in the first half.
A system can’t work if the personnel can’t pass the ball properly or keep hoofing it out over the end line as John Egan and Jeff Hendrick did in the first half

[Tipp Townie]

although for what it's worth I thought Hogan did ok when he came on. He's got more pace than I realised (though that might just be on me for not knowing enough about our own squad)

[Tipp Townie]

Duffy is available to play

Ah, great, ta

[Stuttgart88]

although for what it's worth I thought Hogan did ok when he came on. He's got more pace than I realised (though that might just be on me for not knowing enough about our own squad)
So did I, except for the time he drifted offside from our own free kick.

[Fixer82]

So did I, except for the time he drifted offside from our own free kick.

Hogan played well. That wasn’t an offside. Terrible call by linesman

[mark12345]

I'd be more miffed that Scott Hogan gets in ahead of me if I were Maguire. I don't think he has the right to be miffed regarding Connolly.

I think he has every right to be miffed about Connolly. Connolly will hopefully be a real success in the future but the vast majority of his experience has been at underage level. Maguire has been playing at a higher level for 2 years. And Hogan has more experience than the pair of them combined, albeit he is not doing great at present at club level.

[Fixer82]

I think he has every right to be miffed about Connolly. Connolly will hopefully be a real success in the future but the vast majority of his experience has been at underage level. Maguire has been playing at a higher level for 2 years. And Hogan has more experience than the pair of them combined, albeit he is not doing great at present at club level.

Maguire has had a few chances to prove himself at international level against poor opposition and hasn’t taken them.
Connolly added energy and spark against Georgia so Maguire can’t be too upset.

[seanfhear]

I think for the sake of his Club Career , Maguire cannot be risking his hamstrings . He probably would be as well to concentrate on club football and get as much career out of those hamstrings as he can .

[brine3]

The premier league has been around for almost 30 years.

No idea what you mean by that.

But yes, it has.

[zero]

I think Mick deserves some credit for accepting that Collins wasn't working out and giving him the hook at HT. I've seen several people in the past cristicising him for being too stubborn to make changes until too late.

I was advocating his subbing off, though I would personally have gone with Cullen to help Whelan in the middle and let the others get further up the pitch. I guess though that would look negative, bringing a DM on for a striker...

[tetsujin1979]

No idea what you mean by that.

But yes, it has.
Calling someone a bandwagon fan by joining something that's existed for that long is a bit meaningless. It's like complaining about all those people listening to Radiohead instead of *looks up new releases* Wild Youth

[Stuttgart88]

I think Mick deserves some credit for accepting that Collins wasn't working out and giving him the hook at HT. I've seen several people in the past cristicising him for being too stubborn to make changes until too late.

I was advocating his subbing off, though I would personally have gone with Cullen to help Whelan in the middle and let the others get further up the pitch. I guess though that would look negative, bringing a DM on for a striker...I think it's a partial mitigant that Mick didn't have the year between the Denmark Catastrophe and the start of Euro qualifying to experiment. If he had maybe there'd have been a bit more certainty of who to use and how/when.

[Straightstory]

I don't think McCarthy realised how much Ireland fans have suffered having to watch the miserable fare offered up by Trappatoni and O'Neill over the last decade. Not long after his appointment, I got a sinking feeling when I heard him trot out the usual cliches about how happy he would be to 'win ugly' and settle for a 1-0 win against the likes of Gibraltar. This 'practical negativity' has done nothing to change the fear mentality in the team, resulting on a reluctance to play any kind of of passing football of the type normally seem at international level. It's safety first at all times, relying on 'the Irish spirit' (grit and determination), 'nicking a goal from a set-piece' etc. etc. It's all so unambitious and utterly joyless. I think we'll have to wait until Kenny for that to change. (Although like McCarthy, Kenny will also have to deal with the weakest squad I've seen represent Ireland since I saw my first game almost fifty years ago). On a more optimistic note, reading this, it would appear almost impossible for Ireland NOT to qualify for the Euros:
https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2019/1016/1083733-as-it-stands-euro-2020-play-off-permutations/

[mark12345]

Hogan played well. That wasn’t an offside. Terrible call by linesman

Some very bad officiating last night to be honest

[mark12345]

I think it's a partial mitigant that Mick didn't have the year between the Denmark Catastrophe and the start of Euro qualifying to experiment. If he had maybe there'd have been a bit more certainty of who to use and how/when.

Too many apologies for Mick. To be fair to him you have to give him credit for one or two of the players he has introduced to the squad during his tenure, Byrne, Cullen, Egan. But on the other hand he has persisted way too long with failed projects like Hendrick, Whelan (who actually played to the very best of his ability yesterday) and even Hourihane to an extent. Ongoing inclusion in the team despite continuous poor performances sends the wrong message to everyone. And then there's the nonsensical statements he makes like being happy with a draw in Georgia. That is not what fans want to hear

[mark12345]

I just wish Mick would have taken a different approach from the beginning, like spending every second on the training ground working on changing his team to one which can construct a half decent passing move and hold possession in the opposition half

[Stuttgart88]

I'd swap you Whelan, Hendrick and Hourihane guaranteed starters for a James McClean guaranteed non-starter.

[Stuttgart88]

I just wish Mick would have taken a different approach from the beginning, like spending every second on the training ground working on changing his team to one which can construct a half decent passing move and hold possession in the opposition halfParis, Lille and Geneva show that once players who are otherwise cautious and timid with the ball decide to play they can do it. Part of me thinks it’s that old John Giles thing of “moral courage”. We just seem to play with fear the whole time.

[jbyrne]

Paris, Lille and Geneva show that once players who are otherwise cautious and timid with the ball decide to play they can do it. Part of me thinks it’s that old John Giles thing of “moral courage”. We just seem to play with fear the whole time.

there is certainly fear there but the amount of aimless passes over the last two games was incredible.
balls straight out of play, passes that put the recipient under undue pressure, passes to the opposition, crosses from crazy angles etc etc.
I cant believe that these issues are down to the manager... surely an experienced player can do better no matter what influence the manager has??

[osarusan]

. We still have the Jack Charlton “take no risks, we’re not as good as them” attitude ingrained in our senior team’s culture.

Exactly this. Trapp, O'Neill, and even Mick have lamented the lack of attacking intent and so on, all the while picking teams that they know will be very conservative.

And it's the reason we drop points against teams that we shouldn't, which results in us not being able to play for a draw against the teams that it makes sense to take no risks against.

[brine3]

I do sometimes wonder if Jack did more damage to Irish football in the long term than he did good.

It's not as if we were hopeless before he came along. There's a case to be me made that the 1982 team was one of the best Irish teams there ever was, but had to deal with extremely dodgy refereeing in favour of Belgium on multiple occasions.

How would Jack have gotten on if his Euro 88 or Italia 90 qualification group had France, Belgium and the Netherlands in it...

[brine3]

Calling someone a bandwagon fan by joining something that's existed for that long is a bit meaningless. It's like complaining about all those people listening to Radiohead instead of *looks up new releases* Wild Youth

Aha, I see. I'm more referring to the average Irish fan whose knowledge of football comes entirely from TV. Those are the types who don't understand off the ball runs, etc.

[mark12345]

Exactly this. Trapp, O'Neill, and even Mick have lamented the lack of attacking intent and so on, all the while picking teams that they know will be very conservative.

And it's the reason we drop points against teams that we shouldn't, which results in us not being able to play for a draw against the teams that it makes sense to take no risks against.

All true. And to answer JByrne's point about players not being able to make even the simplest passes not being Mick's fault, this is also true. I have been saying for years that players who cannot do the basics are not the fault of the manager. Problem with Mick and indeed MON and Trap is that none of them were willing to do the hard work to change the mentally of the team

[Razors left peg]

Had a conversation with my father about the Georgia game on Sunday and I was basically ranting about how bad McClean was. He was surprised and said he thought McClean worked hard. That to me summed up why McClean is in the team, its because he gives the impression that hes running himself into the ground and that is important in a managers eyes.... its also a complete crock of sh1t. You could take any fit young fella and tell him to run around for 90 minutes like a headless chicken and give the ball away everytime he gets it.

It was a similar argument when Fellaini was in the team at United, people would say he works hard and will get you a goal, but how many times do other opportunitys break down because he runs it out of play or his touch is so bad he gives ball back to opposition.

McClean is a symptom of everything thats wrong with Irish football attitudes especially with the casual fan. The problem is that when the manager agrees with the casual fan it becomes a problem. McClean gave the ball away so often in the last 2 games its incredible. How can you build an attack when you know that everytime it goes to certain player the attack will break down. That also sucks the life out of others around him. We have all played on teams at whatever level where you dont rate a guy on the team with you and you know he is problem.

McClean isnt the only problem of course but he does sum up at lot of them and he needs to be replaced against Denmark or we will be having the same conversation

[backstothewall]

Had a conversation with my father about the Georgia game on Sunday and I was basically ranting about how bad McClean was. He was surprised and said he thought McClean worked hard. That to me summed up why McClean is in the team, its because he gives the impression that hes running himself into the ground and that is important in a managers eyes.... its also a complete crock of sh1t. You could take any fit young fella and tell him to run around for 90 minutes like a headless chicken and give the ball away everytime he gets it.

It was a similar argument when Fellaini was in the team at United, people would say he works hard and will get you a goal, but how many times do other opportunitys break down because he runs it out of play or his touch is so bad he gives ball back to opposition.

McClean is a symptom of everything thats wrong with Irish football attitudes especially with the casual fan. The problem is that when the manager agrees with the casual fan it becomes a problem. McClean gave the ball away so often in the last 2 games its incredible. How can you build an attack when you know that everytime it goes to certain player the attack will break down. That also sucks the life out of others around him. We have all played on teams at whatever level where you dont rate a guy on the team with you and you know he is problem.

McClean isnt the only problem of course but he does sum up at lot of them and he needs to be replaced against Denmark or we will be having the same conversation

He got away with it when he was younger because although he was running about like a headless chicken he could maintain his level of enthusiasm for 90 minutes and that often ended up producing something, particularly late in the game.

Last night he was blowing out of his arse after 70 mins. An exhausted James McClean is no good to anyone.

The real tragedy is that a fresh McClean coming on with 20 minutes left might have offered a real threat. Particularly on that pitch.

[Colbert Report]

I love James McClean and I love the way he plays. The guy gives the ball away far too often, but he's the most likely player to produce a bit of magic and make something happen. He'd be the first name on the team sheet for me every time if I was the manager.

[Kingdom]

There's been more of a swing back in the interest of Irish football fans in the fate of the Irish team recently, and I think a large part of it is guys becoming disenfrachised with the PL, for many reasons, and a lot of people are starting to look closer to home for their football kicks.
I think from being on this forum for the guts of 15 years, its easy to see that the vast majority of us are all vested in the performances of the National team above everything else, and it hurts to see us play so poorly, which is a mad thing to say when you consider some of the dross that's we've played before.

There are a lot of peculiarities about performances under this specific group of players over the last 4/5 years. We invest so much time trying to stop other teams from playing, and winning the ball back, but don't invest the same effort in keeping the ball. We look to offer little in attacking intent or threat when we have parity in a game, yet if we go behind we can put teams on the back foot at will. It is maddening. It could be said that we are in the worst position possible in that all of our attacking players, are guys who have someone else to do it for them at club level. We have no pivot so to speak. The pivot players that we do have are either in the 21s (or 19s), or are Jack Byrne (untested) or Didsy, who gets picked in a position to become the pivot weakens the overall structure of the team.

I've said a few times previously that as a National team, we are too slow to change; we are too slow to call players up and use them; too slow to drop someone who is either not playing well, or is playing in place of someone who is playing better.

[jbyrne]

I do sometimes wonder if Jack did more damage to Irish football in the long term than he did good.

It's not as if we were hopeless before he came along. There's a case to be me made that the 1982 team was one of the best Irish teams there ever was, but had to deal with extremely dodgy refereeing in favour of Belgium on multiple occasions.

How would Jack have gotten on if his Euro 88 or Italia 90 qualification group had France, Belgium and the Netherlands in it...

Our Euro 88 group wasn't easy with three of the 24 Mexico 86 wc finalists Belgium (semi finalists), scotland and bulgaria in it.

[paul_oshea]

I'm honestly beginning to believe International level is a step up from permier league. We've had countless premier league players who just cant cut it at international level. Yet perform admirably in the premier league.

This team is clearly lacking in confidence though, I sensed it before the Georgia game, and certainly it was evident during the game. Micks substitution of browne said the same(which was ridiculous they were never ever going to score). ANd it negatively impacted the team. These lads dont believe themselves that they can beat Denmark at home.

Mick himself was very downbeat post match interview, when normally he always sees positives. Unfortunately Mick ceded to the public with his formation, but not with his selection. He got it wrong badly, like O'Neill before him, albeit O'Neill had it easier over the Sombre Sobering September fixtures.

[Stuttgart88]

i can't for the life of me understand why he started with a back 3 but with Stevens one of the 3 rather than wing back. Stevens for me has been a standout in the PL this year in that role, oozing confidence. I'd like to see Doherty and him as wing backs in Nov, or at least as attacking full backs with a narrower midfield. I can see a role for O'Dowda and/or Brady as each can come inside and off either wing.

[Olé Olé]

Clark left side centre back with Duffy and Egan strikes me as a lovely blend. Stevens and Doherty as wing backs then.

Put a blanket over who plays midfield. I don't even want to venture a guess at that.

Didsy and Connolly up top. That would be a lovely partnership. Didsy has the control, awareness and the brain to be a great outlet beside Connolly.

That would look well.

[seanfhear]

Clark left side centre back with Duffy and Egan strikes me as a lovely blend. Stevens and Doherty as wing backs then.

Put a blanket over who plays midfield. I don't even want to venture a guess at that.

Didsy and Connolly up top. That would be a lovely partnership. Didsy has the control, awareness and the brain to be a great outlet beside Connolly.

That would look well.I feel dosy for not knowing who Didsy is . Is he a new boy ?

[Olé Olé]

I feel dosy for not knowing who Didsy is . Is he a new boy ?
McGoldrick.

[Stuttgart88]

Clark left side centre back with Duffy and Egan strikes me as a lovely blend. Stevens and Doherty as wing backs then.

Put a blanket over who plays midfield. I don't even want to venture a guess at that.

Didsy and Connolly up top. That would be a lovely partnership. Didsy has the control, awareness and the brain to be a great outlet beside Connolly.

That would look well.I'd like Long back myself.

[Fixer82]

I'm honestly beginning to believe International level is a step up from permier league. We've had countless premier league players who just cant cut it at international level. Yet perform admirably in the premier league.

This team is clearly lacking in confidence though, I sensed it before the Georgia game, and certainly it was evident during the game. Micks substitution of browne said the same(which was ridiculous they were never ever going to score). ANd it negatively impacted the team. These lads dont believe themselves that they can beat Denmark at home.



As I stated previously, I believe international football suits some more than others.
Case in point, McGoldrick has taken to it brilliantly from his first cap.
Robinson hasn’t at all.

[Olé Olé]

I'd like Long back myself.
Wouldn't complain about it either but it seems very odd he has picked Hogan ahead of him.

[Demesne Lad]

I've always liked Long, but to play him - or at least to start him - against Denmark would be a gamble. The stats from his game against Chelsea are not good:

Shots = 0; Key passes = 0; Offside = 1; Passes = 15; Pass accuracy = 47%. (Source: Whoscored)

[Charlie Darwin]

Had a conversation with my father about the Georgia game on Sunday and I was basically ranting about how bad McClean was. He was surprised and said he thought McClean worked hard. That to me summed up why McClean is in the team, its because he gives the impression that hes running himself into the ground and that is important in a managers eyes.... its also a complete crock of sh1t. You could take any fit young fella and tell him to run around for 90 minutes like a headless chicken and give the ball away everytime he gets it.

I wonder if it's just a shift in mindset of some Irish fans, who maybe expect a bit more. Maybe it's also because Dunphy and Giles aren't always on TV anymore. I remember Kevin Doyle putting in loads of great shifts for Ireland but often his limitations were obvious, yet often he'd be lauded for his work ethic while Keane was similarly lambasted. And much of it was, I suspect, because Dunphy was on TV every international building up his running into the corners and conceding throw-ins to something approaching world class status.

[seanfhear]

I've always liked Long, but to play him - or at least to start him - against Denmark would be a gamble. The stats from his game against Chelsea are not good:

Shots = 0; Key passes = 0; Offside = 1; Passes = 15; Pass accuracy = 47%. (Source: Whoscored)
In his defence . Forwards passes in the attacking quarter of the field are going to be more intercept-able for a number of reasons . Or am I clutching at straws .

[Eminence Grise]

47% passing accuracy from a Irish player? Have I died and gone to heaven?:rolleyes:

Sure he's in the dog days of his career, but his pace causes problems and that and can let someone else in. I'd have him over Collins, Hogan or Maguire all day every day. He's got the nous from a decent career at the top level. They don't, and are never likely to get the chance to play as much at that level.

[seanfhear]

Long with his experience , pace , athleticism and very good attitude on the field and as I far as I know in the squad should be in the reckoning .

Mick McCarthy could do worse than give Shane Long a call .

[mark12345]

There's been more of a swing back in the interest of Irish football fans in the fate of the Irish team recently, and I think a large part of it is guys becoming disenfrachised with the PL, for many reasons, and a lot of people are starting to look closer to home for their football kicks.
I think from being on this forum for the guts of 15 years, its easy to see that the vast majority of us are all vested in the performances of the National team above everything else, and it hurts to see us play so poorly, which is a mad thing to say when you consider some of the dross that's we've played before.

There are a lot of peculiarities about performances under this specific group of players over the last 4/5 years. We invest so much time trying to stop other teams from playing, and winning the ball back, but don't invest the same effort in keeping the ball. We look to offer little in attacking intent or threat when we have parity in a game, yet if we go behind we can put teams on the back foot at will. It is maddening. It could be said that we are in the worst position possible in that all of our attacking players, are guys who have someone else to do it for them at club level. We have no pivot so to speak. The pivot players that we do have are either in the 21s (or 19s), or are Jack Byrne (untested) or Didsy, who gets picked in a position to become the pivot weakens the overall structure of the team.

I've said a few times previously that as a National team, we are too slow to change; we are too slow to call players up and use them; too slow to drop someone who is either not playing well, or is playing in place of someone who is playing better.

You've hit not one nail on the head in your post Kingdom, but a few. You are 100 per cent correct in saying that we spent too much time stopping other teams playing and not enough time attacking. That is a mindset which has bedeviled us for decades. That mindset needs to change as soon as possible. And the other important thing you refer to is us being too slow to drop poorly performing players. That has killed us for years (think Jeff Hendrick) and also needs to change

[irishfan86]

A lot of our issues come down to our lack of what Trap referred to as players with "personality," specifically in midfield. I believe what Trap meant by that is alpha dogs....players who will to get on the ball and get involved in matches, even and especially under pressure.

Whelan has personality to a degree but is past his best physically. Meanwhile Hourihane and Hendrick are guys that can play a sort of complementary role & certainly have a goal in them -- but don't have the capacity or personality to control a game. I would suggest James McCarthy has that personality but I understand his lack of involvement in this campaign given his lack of first team matches.

So Mick is left between choosing "top level" players used to playing supporting roles, or taking what will be a perceived risk by playing a guy used to being more influential in his team at a lower level (perhaps Byrne or someone from the Championship). I can sympathize with the situation and I don't blame Mick for it.

[Demesne Lad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=nHeE4BcykHg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=nHeE4BcykHg)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSNLXSIxm_E Watch from 3.20 to 3.50Ok, it's only the SPFL, but are we blessed with scoring wingers?

[Philly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=nHeE4BcykHg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=nHeE4BcykHg)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSNLXSIxm_E Watch from 3.20 to 3.50Ok, it's only the SPFL, but are we blessed with scoring wingers?
Christ.

[seanfhear]

Christ.Who is he playing for ?

[SkStu]

He plays for the Saints, on the left of the top three.

[Fixer82]

Horgan hasn’t put a foot wrong in an Ireland shirt. Deserves another shot in my opinion

[Kingdom]

I do sometimes wonder if Jack did more damage to Irish football in the long term than he did good.

It's not as if we were hopeless before he came along. There's a case to be me made that the 1982 team was one of the best Irish teams there ever was, but had to deal with extremely dodgy refereeing in favour of Belgium on multiple occasions.

How would Jack have gotten on if his Euro 88 or Italia 90 qualification group had France, Belgium and the Netherlands in it...

I cannot recall where I read it or heard it, but the problem wasn't the damage Jack did to Irish football, but more the problem Irish football did to itself. The FAI and the schoolboy clubs were not prepared for the explosion in numbers in football, and this meant that people not from football backgrounds - particularly in the cities - ended up helping out running teams and coaching. And more often than not, if they were from a GAA background, it was "lump into batch in the forwards", or if they had no background, it was a case of do what Jack does, and kick it long! And it took a long time for that to be weeded out of kids football.

I can tell you now, I'm living in one of the countries that is held aloft as a vision for kids football, and it's bull****. Irish kids are as talented as any around. What we need is to keep developing the structures in Ireland, the facilities, the transport, the education. It'll pay off, we just need to invest.

[backstothewall]

I take a different view.

I see Jack as the Messiah of Irish football.

If I see a consistent mistake this last 20 years it's failure to be aggressive enough with the long ball game. We get the odd guy who looks like he is a bit of a baller and get fixated on him. There have been a few names. Andy Reid. Keith Fahey. Wes Hoolahan. Jack Byrne.

Counties have a style. The Italians are slow and patient. The English are up-and-atem. The Argentinians are dirty and the Brazilians are beautiful.

We knock it long and fight the opposition in their half. We inflict our game on the opposition. We put 'em under pressure.

It's the only way we've ever had success.

So whether it's Niall Quinn, Caleb Folan or David McGoldrick my default position is knock it long, fight for it in their half and see what happens next. In the last 20 years we have scored so many late goals against teams who we have little right to even score against by following that exact approach when it's too late for anything else. Everyone remembers Robbie Keane scoring in 2002 form a Quinn knockdown. I also remember him scoring against Italy in 2009 form a Folan knockdown. If it can work in the 88th minute it can work in the 19th.

I think we should do this because it suits the players we tend to produce, and because nobody else does it. We should be the crazy gang of international football. Score form long balls and set pieces. It give teams a problem they just don't have to deal with elsewhere. There is merit in that alone.