UK Election

[liam88]

Ver early signs pointing to the predictedLabour win with decreased majority. Labour have retained 32 Seats, Conservatives have won 1 seat-won from Labour, and Lib Dems have retained 2.
Scotish National PArty have also retained a seat in Angus.

Night :D

[Risteard]

Most boring election anywhere that i can remember. I mean look at what Dubyas biitch is competing against.
Tories apparently gonna get their FIRST black mp EVER tonight.
Thats ridiculous.
Labour will only be beaten by the Lib Dems and that'll be another 8 years.

[pete]

No excitement with First Past the Post system

Think i heard Lib Dems got 22% of the vote but last i heard @ approx 10% of seats if lucky.

[jofyisgod]

Most boring election anywhere that i can remember. I mean look at what Dubyas biitch is competing against.
Tories apparently gonna get their FIRST black mp EVER tonight.
Thats ridiculous.
Labour will only be beaten by the Lib Dems and that'll be another 8 years.

WHAT!!!?? The Lib Dems won't be winning a thing for the next 30 years under this system mate. The only "real alternative" are the weakend and shambolic Conservative Party. Thank God-4 more years of progressive New Labour under Mr. Blair and then Mr. Brown. The Lib Dems are a fuzzy party, with fuzzy policy, fuzzy spending plans and a fuzzy leader. They can only benefit from Iraq protest votes. Imagine last night without Iraq looming over it! We would have seen another huge Lab majority. However, 66 (or so) will do for now. It's a comfortable majority by anyone's standards.

[hamish]

Anyone see/hear George Galloway's speech - incendiary - doesn't do diplomacy, does he!!

[Green Tribe]

Did anyone see when Michael Howard's constituency was being announced :D ? The guy from the Monster Raving Looney Party was soooo funny, he was cheering everyone as their results got announced. He was good craic even though he deliberately looked like an arse :D

[hamish]

I was waiting for Howard to whack him one!

[Closed Account 2]

Well i think the Lib Dems seem to have got their tactics wrong this time. The "Tory Decapitation" strategy didnt really work, they took 3 seats off them (Taunton, Solihull and Westmorland) none of which contained a high profile Tory. Yet Galloway's victory in Bethnal Green shows that the left could push Labour out of control, and the Lib Dem's own victories in places like Leeds and Brent East suggests they should have tried to press the Iraq issue more, and gone for Labour (and Labour pro-war candidates) instead of targeting the Tories.

All of the major parties came out of the election badly. The Lib Dems had a golden oppertunity, Iraq, tuition fees and huge media coverage on them all meant they had the most favourable conditions theyve experienced in years, yet in spite of all this they only managed around 60 seats, and actually lost a few to the Tories of all people. The Tories themselves were clearly not at all convincing enough for the electorate, they didnt do well and so Howard has quit. Labour went from having a huge majority to one of just 60 (down around 100 seats) - which in a party so divided is hardly a majority at all, it will be very diffficult for them to get tricky bills through now.

[hamish]

Well i think the Lib Dems seem to have got their tactics wrong this time. The "Tory Decapitation" strategy didnt really work, they took 3 seats off them (Taunton, Solihull and Westmorland) none of which contained a high profile Tory. Yet Galloway's victory in Bethnal Green shows that the left could push Labour out of control, and the Lib Dem's own victories in places like Leeds and Brent East suggests they should have tried to press the Iraq issue more, and gone for Labour (and Labour pro-war candidates) instead of targeting the Tories.

All of the major parties came out of the election badly. The Lib Dems had a golden oppertunity, Iraq, tuition fees and huge media coverage on them all meant they had the most favourable conditions theyve experienced in years, yet in spite of all this they only managed around 60 seats, and actually lost a few to the Tories of all people. The Tories themselves were clearly not at all convincing enough for the electorate, they didnt do well and so Howard has quit. Labour went from having a huge majority to one of just 60 (down around 100 seats) - which in a party so divided is hardly a majority at all, it will be very diffficult for them to get tricky bills through now.

Yeh, I was going to state that the Liberals would do well under PR but then so would the Tories and Labour. I felt that the whole shebang was a damp squib - only Galloway, whatever one might think of him, spoke without recourse to the usual cliches/BS/waffle. He's a guy I'd normally have time for but when I remember "Sir, I salute your indefatigability....", I have me doots.

[liam88]

From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4524103.stm)
Today was the moment they [the DUP] had been working towards for the past seven years - destroying the career of the unionist leader who signed the Good Friday Agreement.
Significant?

[Poor Student]

Results in Northern Ireland:
18 seats
DUP 9
UUP 1
SF 5
SDLP 3

Trimble is gone and the UUP have been decimated. The DUP's decision to run a candidate in every constituency lost the UUP their South Belfast seat to the SDLP due to the shortcomings of the majoritarian voting system taking the seat with 32% of the vote where 50% voted unionist. SF increased by one taking Seamus Mallon's seat and the SDLP were saved a loss by the freak result in South Belfast. Who knows where things go from here. Rightly or wrongly unionism has one clear voice now which will enable them in enforce their intransigence or renegotiate the agreement. At this stage now 8 years down the line I don't see a full implementation of the Good Friday agreement ever.

[Green Tribe]

From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4524103.stm)
Today was the moment they [the DUP] had been working towards for the past seven years - destroying the career of the unionist leader who signed the Good Friday Agreement.
Significant?

I heard Big Gaab Ian ranting on the news earlier, Jaysus, he is one vicious trouble-making git, always has been, always will be. The sooner he and the other bitter old-timers in Northern Ireland go the better, let the younger people take control. :mad:

[Poor Student]

I heard Big Gaab Ian ranting on the news earlier, Jaysus, he is one vicious trouble-making git, always has been, always will be. The sooner he and the other bitter old-timers in Northern Ireland go the better, let the younger people take control. :mad:

Sadly there's another one in the making and he is Ian Jr. From what I heard he wrote the famous "sackcloth and ash" speech for his father recently.

[hamish]

Yeah, Poor Student, there's something particularly obnoxious about Junior. Some future for the North, eh?

[Closed Account 2]

Yeh, I was going to state that the Liberals would do well under PR but then so would the Tories and Labour. I felt that the whole shebang was a damp squib - only Galloway, whatever one might think of him, spoke without recourse to the usual cliches/BS/waffle. He's a guy I'd normally have time for but when I remember "Sir, I salute your indefatigability....", I have me doots.

Well it was a well delivered speech last night, reminded me a bit of the Norweigan commentator after Norway beat England at football ("Maggie Thatcher, Can you hear me ... etc). Did anyone see the guy who stood in Blair's constituency ? He gave a pretty strong speech slamming Blair right in front of him, it looked like Cherie Blair was going to nut him at one stage.

[Green Tribe]

Well it was a well delivered speech last night, reminded me a bit of the Norweigan commentator after Norway beat England at football ("Maggie Thatcher, Can you hear me ... etc). Did anyone see the guy who stood in Blair's constituency ? He gave a pretty strong speech slamming Blair right in front of him, it looked like Cherie Blair was going to nut him at one stage.

yup, it was a guy who's son served in Iraq and you've guessed it..died and blames Blair etc etc :rolleyes:

[Green Tribe]

Sadly there's another one in the making and he is Ian Jr. From what I heard he wrote the famous "sackcloth and ash" speech for his father recently.

Yes, I would include him too, he unfortunately is an exact replica of the old git himself, actually sometimes I think he is worse than Big Ian. Bitter as a lemon. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Green Tribe]

Sadly,had the misfortune of speaking to the wee ***** a few years ago on BBC radio :eek:

I could imagine that was the highlight of your life ;) :D

[Green Tribe]

You gotta love Big Ian... :eek: :mad: That's enough politics, don't want it going off-topic, then closed. :D

[hamish]

I see Galloway is threatening to "hound Blair" . I have this image of Balir scuttling up, down and all over the green seats of the House of Commons with Galloway in hot persuit shouting "Come here and face me, you bugger". :D :D

[jofyisgod]

I see Galloway is threatening to "hound Blair" . I have this image of Balir scuttling up, down and all over the green seats of the House of Commons with Galloway in hot persuit shouting "Come here and face me, you bugger". :D :D


Galloway is a total waste of space. One man in the Commons can do nothing. Simple as. He's pathetic, he feasted on an area that needs serious political attention, not one-issue gobshítes. Oona King was an amazing MP, now she has been unseated by a man not even from near the area, a man with little/no understanding of the seriously entrenched social issues and a man who is so arrogant and out of touch, he honestly believes he will make a difference.

Briefly:
If the Lib Dems want to progress, Kennedy needs to be shown the door-sad, but true and the Tories will once again be too busy internally fighting to even glance at the electorate.

[dcfcsteve]

Galloway is a total waste of space. One man in the Commons can do nothing. Simple as. He's pathetic, he feasted on an area that needs serious political attention, not one-issue gobshítes. Oona King was an amazing MP, now she has been unseated by a man not even from near the area, a man with little/no understanding of the seriously entrenched social issues and a man who is so arrogant and out of touch, he honestly believes he will make a difference.

Briefly:
If the Lib Dems want to progress, Kennedy needs to be shown the door-sad, but true and the Tories will once again be too busy internally fighting to even glance at the electorate.

I agree with you that Galloway is a vain-glorious attention seeker, who will do feck all. Will be surprised if he get re-elected in 5 years time.

I disagree with you on Oona King, though. She was an ass-sucking, condascending Blairite, with perhaps the mkost irritating verbal approach of any politician in England (and that's a tough accoloade to claim). She was too busy toeing the party line and pursuing her own career to do anything substantive for her own constituency.

On the Lib Dems - the slow march continues. The papers are now talking of 3rd party politics as finally having arrived for the first time in 80yrs. Kennedy is not the biggest issue the Liberals face - nor is he the most urgent. Establishing a clear vision and point of differentiation from the other parties is more important, as is accelerating electoral gains. These can happen with or without Kennedy. I wouldn't be surpirsed if Kennedy is still in place for the next election - there's no pressure from within the party for him to be replaced.

[hamish]

There are MPs and TDs who AREN'T vainglorious attention seekers? :rolleyes: Get a grip lads. My biggest concern with Galloway is his fawning comments to Hussein as I quoted above.
Let's see his peformances in the Commons in upcoming months before we totally write him off, ok?
If only many other Labour candidates had the guts to stand up to President Blair we might have had a different outcome in the Iraqi situation but the I suppose, coulda, woulda shoulda!!
Only Robin Cooke can come out of this with any modicum of credibility.
Oona King made the mistake of supporting the Iraqi war - is that being a REPRESENTATIVE to her large Muslin constituency.
SO WHAT if Galloway is not from the area - a huge number of the constituency obviouslly agreed with him to elect him.

[Soper]

Most MP's aren't from the area they represent...well alot aren't

[Closed Account 2]

Yeah Galloway is an egomaniac (self-proclaimed winner "one of the most sensational election results in modern history"), and I doubt he'll be an effective MP for the people of Bethnal Green, but if his interview with the BBC (2nd down (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4506283.stm)) is anything to go by then at least he'll add an element of amusement.

[hamish]

I have to admit I read his book recently and he certainly wouldn't win the shrinking violet contest!
I still can't wait until he starts eating the $hite out of Blair in the House of Commons - pity more wouln't.

[Macy]

Galloway is a total waste of space. One man in the Commons can do nothing. Simple as. He's pathetic, he feasted on an area that needs serious political attention, not one-issue gobshítes. Oona King was an amazing MP, now she has been unseated by a man not even from near the area, a man with little/no understanding of the seriously entrenched social issues and a man who is so arrogant and out of touch, he honestly believes he will make a difference.
Great victory for Old Labour over New Labour. Always excellent to see. What fookin difference did Oona King make? Obviously not enough locally to get votes that's for sure....

The Lib Dems should immediately take up the centre left (too much to expect them to go to the left). Infairness, they've already started with the abolition of Tuition Fees, Increase in Tax, but they need to commit to it. With the Tories and New Labour fighting it out in the right, they really could become the real alternative. Get there before Brown becomes PM and starts shifting New Labour back towards the centre...

[jofyisgod]

I still can't wait until he starts eating the $hite out of Blair in the House of Commons - pity more wouln't.

He will get little to no Common's time with the Prime Minister. PM is only there for approx. 30mins a week, and they tend to concentrate on important issues, not self-important individuals.



Great victory for Old Labour over New Labour. Always excellent to see. What fookin difference did Oona King make? Obviously not enough locally to get votes that's for sure....

Old Labour was unelectable, and IMO, still is. The further away from the radical left the better for the Labour Party. Many voters base their voting preference upon national issues sadly, and the Galloway/King incident proves this. People voted on an issues thousand of miles away (as they are entitled to), not on Ms.King's local work. She lost because of Iraq, nothing else.



Oona King made the mistake of supporting the Iraqi war - is that being a REPRESENTATIVE to her large Muslin constituency.

MPs have both an obligation to their consituents, their party, but most of all, themselves. If they believe in something, as i feel Oona King (and many other MPs and members of the public did, including me) believed that military action in Iraq was correct, she can vote for it in Parliament. That is her right as an MP.

Agree with Macy on the LibDems, they are way too fuzzy ideologically at the moment, choosing to focus on individual issues rather than a serious campaign and programme for Government. What they must not do, however, is become a new 'New Labour', as then they are going to be simply dismissed. It's a fascinating topic, and i am interested to see how they decide to go about it.

[hamish]

I don't care whether he's self important or not, I still feel he'll make his point against Blair, whenever he gets the opportunity in Commons. Somebody, flawed or not like Galloway, really has to remind Blair that he's responsible for a monstrous toll of death. The silence from far too many Labour MPs was outrageous.
I refuse to believe that King was so gullible that she was unaware of the implications of backing a war. If she was true to herself, fine, but could she not have factored her Muslim constituents feelings into her thought process and still retain her intergrity - course she could. What's the point of being a representative otherwise?

[dcfcsteve]

Agree with Macy on the LibDems, they are way too fuzzy ideologically at the moment, choosing to focus on individual issues rather than a serious campaign and programme for Government. What they must not do, however, is become a new 'New Labour', as then they are going to be simply dismissed. It's a fascinating topic, and i am interested to see how they decide to go about it.

The days of ideology-based politics are over guys. The Lib Dems "focus on individual issues" as that's what concerns people in the country ! Education, public funding/tax, pensions - these are all individual issues - and the Lib Dems had both the most radical and, IMHO, the most workable solutions to them. Just because there was no over-riding 'ology' to string all their policies together (left-wing, right-wing, socialist, libertarian, Keynesian, blah blah blah) doesn't mean they were any less relevant, considered, popular or effective, does it ?

And the Lib Dems will not move to take-up the political ground to the left that Labour has left vacant. Again, because politics is no longer about left or right. Labour and the Tories may choose to play 'political chess' - moving their players around the board to follow the wind/chase votes - but the philosophy that undermines the Lib Dems views is one of principle, so they don't go chasing votes in areas or issues which don't match their principles. Hence why they didn't for one second support the Iraq War, identity cards, top-up fees, the gender bias within pensions, tax cuts for the wealthy etc etc.

To clarify what the Lib Dems principle-based approach uses as its point of reference and moral/political compass - it's the preamble to their constitution :

"The Liberal Democrats exist to build and safeguard a fair, free and open society, in which we seek to balance the fundamental values of liberty, equality and community and in which no-one shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity".

The party's view on certain issues is a driven by how the issue concerend relates to the above principles. You don't get to hear about htis, because the media overwhelmingly dedicated its time and attention to the 2 other parties.

Therefore - if you vote the Lib Dems you know what you'll get. If you vote Labour or the Tories you genuinely can't be sure what you're voting for - they'll either break manifesto promises (e.g. Labour and Top-up fees) or they'll change their view every other week (e.g. Tories and the war). How does that make those parties any less "fuzzy" than the Lib Dems ?

[dcfcsteve]

There are MPs and TDs who AREN'T vainglorious attention seekers?

That's a ridiculous statement sirhamish, and a lazy dismassal of the very broad cross-section of people and motivations that make up MP's and TD's.

It's not much different than saying all Irish are stupid, all women are crap drivers etc etc.

There are clearly very many MP's and TD's who are not vain-glorious attention seekers, and very few of the minority who area would be on a par with George Galloway.

[jofyisgod]

The days of ideology-based politics are over guys. The Lib Dems "focus on individual issues" as that's what concerns people in the country ! Education, public funding/tax, pensions - these are all individual issues - and the Lib Dems had both the most radical and, IMHO, the most workable solutions to them.

Well, clearly not their ridiculous new council tax replacement, as they are thinking of scrapping it altogether. They provide little in the way of budgeted plans for government, and do not present themselves as 'The Real Alternative'. Without some sort of ideology, there is very little to 'fall back on' as it were when it comes to tough decisions.Also, this is one of the reasons they will never gain too many votes. Conservative spin-off voters will be wary of the more Lefty policies, and the Labour ones not too sure about their more right-wing policy. Without Iraq, i believe there would have been only the smallest change in seat no.'s for the LDs, as many people decided to vote for them due to this a long time ago, paying no actual regard to their more recent policy plans.
I like the LibDems, it just frustrates me when people say they 'like them', but have no substance to their claim-they know little of their ideas, plans and thoughts on issues. They need to set their stall out more efficiently and clearly, and develop some views on politics as a whole, not contrasting ones on single issues.




Therefore - if you vote the Lib Dems you know what you'll get.

A Conservative MP-tell that to the people in Bexleyheath and Crayford. ;)

[jofyisgod]

That's a ridiculous statement sirhamish, and a lazy dismassal of the very broad cross-section of people and motivations that make up MP's and TD's.

It's not much different than saying all Irish are stupid, all women are crap drivers etc etc.

There are clearly very many MP's and TD's who are not vain-glorious attention seekers, and very few of the minority who area would be on a par with George Galloway.

Hear hear. SirHamish, i fear, is spouting the shíte fed to him daily by the mass tabloid media-'It's cool to dislike/show no interest in' Politics. I confess i know less of the situation with TDs, but i can safely say that 99% of MPs are in Parliament for all the right reasons.

[hamish]

Lads, Lads, will the two of you above cop yourselves on.
I NEVER read the tabloids - I've already stated that the Guardian and Observer are the two papers I read on other posts so who's making the lazy statements??
It's lazy to jump on bandwagons and slate Galloway - and anyone who might wish to give him the benefit of a proper overview - with all the usual cliched "criticism" - who's pulling YOUR strings?
People in glass houses and all that.
The comment I made about TD/MPs was, admittedly, a poor attempt at humour - big deal!
I'm quite capable of making my own mind up and able to disagree with the above quality papers.
Ok so you don't take my comments seriously - I can live with that.
Maybe you lot are taking yourselves a little too seriously also?? :D

[hamish]

MPs have both an obligation to their consituents, their party, but most of all, themselves. If they believe in something, as i feel Oona King (and many other MPs and members of the public did, including me) believed that military action in Iraq was correct, she can vote for it in Parliament. That is her right as an MP.

Let's take that to its logical conclusion. If she really was true to herself and also true to her constituents, she should have resigned her seat and made it an issue for a bi-election. I cannot think of anything more important for a political representative than to have to make a decision where one's vote will effect the lives of soldiers, Iraqis, soldiers families, Iraqi families.
Oona King had, LITERALLY, a life or death decision to make. If she was the paragon of virtue she's made out to be, then she should have resigned her seat and put her pro-war attitude before the electorate. I don't care how talented she is, she proved just to be another Blair lackey and paid the price.

Her local supporters weren't shy either to blacken all her opponents, not just Galloway, with outright lies/distortions. Did she disassociate herself from them. Of course not. By the way, I have BBC London so I heard the comments New Labour made in that constituency.
Paragon of intergrity my ar$e.
Yeh, some of my opinions might be rediculous - MIGHT BE - but you lot are just downright naieve.

[dcfcsteve]

MPs have both an obligation to their consituents, their party, but most of all, themselves. If they believe in something, as i feel Oona King (and many other MPs and members of the public did, including me) believed that military action in Iraq was correct, she can vote for it in Parliament. That is her right as an MP.

Let's take that to its logical conclusion. If she really was true to herself and also true to her constituents, she should have resigned her seat and made it an issue for a bi-election. I cannot think of anything more important for a political representative than to have to make a decision where one's vote will effect the lives of soldiers, Iraqis, soldiers families, Iraqi families.
Oona King had, LITERALLY, a life or death decision to make. If she was the paragon of virtue she's made out to be, then she should have resigned her seat and put her pro-war attitude before the electorate. I don't care how talented she is, she proved just to be another Blair lackey and paid the price.

Her local supporters weren't shy either to blacken all her opponents, not just Galloway, with outright lies/distortions. Did she disassociate herself from them. Of course not. By the way, I have BBC London so I heard the comments New Labour made in that constituency.
Paragon of intergrity my ar$e.
Yeh, some of my opinions might be rediculous - MIGHT BE - but you lot are just downright naieve.

Who's this addressed to Sirhamish.....?

[Green Tribe]

Who's this addressed to Sirhamish.....?

you and jofy is god i assume, but more so you....... :D

[dcfcsteve]

Well, clearly not their ridiculous new council tax replacement, as they are thinking of scrapping it altogether.

Far from being "ridiculous", the Lib Dems pland on Council Tax are by far the most sensible of the 3 main parties. Council Tax is the single most unpopular tax in the country - and to a large extent that is because it is nothing more than a poll-tax. It's based on assumptions made as to the rateable value of your house - but is based on chunks of areas, not individual houses. Therefore - the little old lady on a pension living on her own in her end-of-terrace house would be assessed to pay the same Council Tax as the young, wealthy, double-income top-rate-tax-paying family living in the flash detached property round the corner. Does that seem fair to you ? Add to that the fact that property values change much faster than the very infrequent rate-reviews (currently once a decade), and an already unfair system becomes completely distorted over time.

The Lib Dem proposal was to scrap this ridiculous system and instead replace it with a local Income Tax. Therefore - a system based upon ability to pay, not where you happened to live and the value of your home in relation to a micro-local average. How does this seem "ridiculous" ?

I'm very active within the Lib Dems, and have yet to hear of the parties intentions to scrap this particular policy (though that doesn't mean it hasn't been mentioned). If it does get the chop, however, it won't as you suggest be becuase it is "ridiculous", but will be because it increases the tax burden faced by a a small number of key voters. Real politiks, not failed policies.

As for the rest of your statements - the Lib Dems do have well thought-out plans that are properly costed etc etc. They even have one of the country's most respected economics academics as an MP (Steve Webb, MP for Avonmouth). The fundamental problem is that the media gives overwhelming attention and media space to the other 2 parties - squeezing the Lib Dems in as a footnote/afterthought. This therefore leads the ordinary viewer to believe that the Lib Dems have nothing to say or offer, when in fact it's that they aren't given the chance ?

And as for voting Lib Dem and getting a Tory - firstly the same happened to all 3 parties in the election (vote Labour and get a Tory MP in Surrey South West, Totnes, Poole, Wantage, Suffolk South etc etc, for example. I could go on, but I think you get the idea :) ), and secondly - that's scarily close to the message Blair spent the last 10 days of the election trying to peddle. You should be deeply concered if Labour's spin has burned its way that deeply into your cranium.... :D

[Closed Account 2]

I tell you what, the Americans are in for a shock when Galloway arrives for the Senate hearing... :D

[Green Tribe]

I tell you what, the Americans are in for a shock when Galloway arrives for the Senate hearing... :D

I would pay good money to listen to a meeting of George B and George G :eek: :D

[jofyisgod]

Council Tax is the single most unpopular tax in the country - and to a large extent that is because it is nothing more than a poll-tax.I'm very active within the Lib Dems, and have yet to hear of the parties intentions to scrap this particular policy (though that doesn't mean it hasn't been mentioned).

Firstly, fair play for being involved in party politics-no matter what your allegiance, it is a positive thing and should be applauded. The article was in The Guardian last Monday, i believe, i'll try and retrieve it from the recycling box to check later. It was basically saying that Kennedy realised it wasn't a winner, etc. The policy did actually discriminate slightly against 'average income' families, although i would hasten to add that the 3 parties' ideas of average income differs amazingly. I think we all want something to be done about Council Tax, and there is an enquiry underway, by order of the PM, into finding some sort of alternative.



You should be deeply concered if Labour's spin has burned its way that deeply into your cranium.... :D

That was tongue in cheek! :D Still, I believe it to be true in part, certainly in my constituency, maybe not so much in others.

[hamish]

Who's this addressed to Sirhamish.....?

The first paragraph is from post 31 above jofyisgod - that his name.
My reply is to his point and also to your general points.

Sorry, guys, I do not know how to put in multiple quotes from more than one post so it's hard to target in and agree/disagree with particulat points.
Help/advice plus any kicking you're gonna give me always appreciated, dcfcsteve

I read that in King's constituency there are over 50,000 Bangladeshi Muslims. Did she not even have meetings with this constituency or its representatives before she made that vital vote. Given the subsequent vote it would appear
that she wasn't very much in touch with their opinions. I mean, to go from a TEN THOUSAND majority to an 800 approx loss is one helluva fall and to an outsider who obviously was more in tune with those Muslims than she was.

Now she's either 100% Ms. Integrity to take that risk if her vote base is anti-war and/or very arrogant. Wait a minute, wasn't that also said of George Galloway?

Post 37 was also my reply to your comment re. my throwaway remark re MPs - I'm afraid that I have witnessed far, far to many MP/TDs in dodgy dealings to regard the House of Commons/Dail as a vestible of the pure and decent. It does not equate with all woman are etc - that's a cheap and silly comparison to make - but I'm also aware of out and out corruption among FAR TOO MANY public reps - local and national. Have you read Private Eye lately - no, it's not my gospel but contains a lot of verifiable truths. Have you heard of the McCracken, Flood, Hutton etc etc tribunals? 99% my ass.

I'll give you a couple of Irish under the radar examples that occur within the npolitical sphere in the next post just to show how endemically and deeply corrupt the whole system is here and in UK. SEE POST47

[hamish]

Hear hear. SirHamish, i fear, is spouting the shíte fed to him daily by the mass tabloid media-'It's cool to dislike/show no interest in' Politics. I confess i know less of the situation with TDs, but i can safely say that 99% of MPs are in Parliament for all the right reasons.

Man, did I glean above that you and DCSteve are Guardian/Observer readers. Some am I, for 10 years. I've already stated that in other posts. So whose spouting ****e about reading mass tabloid media? You obviously must be reading these tabloids to know what they're saying which annoys you. I don't read them therefore I can't spout them.

(OK OK I get the IRISH Daily Star the ODD Tuesday for the Junior/Schoolboy soccer scores reports - that's it, period)

For the record, I have never missed a vote for any election since I got the vote - this is my fourth decade of voting and I am a member of Amnesty among others plus a past member of the Green Party which I vote for now.
So your points above are based on absolutely nothing/nada/nowt/nil/thin air.

I wouldn't be assed to write these posts is I felt it was cool to dislike politics, would I? Show no interest? See the paragraph above this one. I just have a healthy quizzical attitude to politicians and their motivations/behaviour/general moral attitude - to legal wars and suchlike, I couldn't care less who/how many they shag as long as the wife/husband knows/agrees and it was concentual,

Where did you get the 99% good guys? The Guardian recently published every constituency/every candidate/all votes. I intend to check all the winning candidates out and if I get even 49% level as oposed to your 99% level, I promise - it's on Foot.ie record = to make dinner for you and partner whenever you pop over this way with various alcoholic additions.
If you are a vegetarian :eek: , then fcuk off!!! :D
How's that for fairness?

The above may take time, I'm not very mobile these days but I'll have a go. If I'm not able to complete the task, I'll ready up and admit it. Dinner still stands, except fpr fcuking vegetarians. :D

Now, how can I be fairer than that?

[hamish]

Example one. Local, Petty but wrong.
An acquaintenance of mine who was a county council representative arrived for a meeting and declared £xx travel expenses. He was asked, "Did you travel alone or with other councillors?" He replied, "NO, on my own". Unfortunately, another member of his party, in a power struggle with him within the party, had earlier JUST HAPPENED to mention , that my acquaintenance had come down with him along with two other councillors in the same car. Uproar. First, you had a false declaration for public money ie YOUR and MY money and also a pretty nasty piece of shafting by a rival party associate. This is of course low level and petty and common but if the roots are corrupt...................?

Example 2. Local/National. Petty but wrong.
A very good friend of mine, active/very high level in local politics until his recent death told me of one unbelievable story. A party colleague, town councillor was visiting a relation in Tipperary. They went out for a pint and bumped into a councillor who was also in Tipp. Councillor 2 said, "Are you down for the convention? Councillor 1, "No, Just visiting family down this way. Councillor 2, "Why not pop over the convention, I'll get you registration etc." Councvillor 1. "Why not, I'll drop in for a little while.
All happened.
As proceedings ended, Councillor 2 called over Councillor 1 and said, make sure you fill in the expenses sheet. Councillor 1 was a little surprised and stated that he was only a visitor not a working member of the Convention.
You're registered in, who the hell is going to check?
Result, £750+ punts for our "visiting" councillor.
If the roots are corrupt..............???
This was not an isolated case.

Farmers on health boards, one who attends at most 2 meetings a year and the odd ribbon cutting makes more from health board plus county council plus urban council plus god knows what else that his farming income is a fraction of his other income. People wonder why the health system is fcuked. Many reasons - there's one of them.
This is not an isolated case. If the roots are corrupt.................?


Fcuking great country.


Wonder why I'm a little skeptical? Wait until I get started on that Guardian list of elected reps. Who knows what I find?

But I won't make blanket, catchall,. emotional, presumptive, tar'emallwithonebrush, stickonlabels like you lot do and without a shred of evidence. Home work first. Opinions afterwards based on as many facts as can be obtained.

That dinner and this isn't a corrupt statement - I'm a pretty good cook! :cool: But I don't cook humble pie - hope you lot can. :D

[dcfcsteve]

The first paragraph is from post 31 above jofyisgod - that his name.
My reply is to his point and also to your general points.

Sorry, guys, I do not know how to put in multiple quotes from more than one post so it's hard to target in and agree/disagree with particulat points.
Help/advice plus any kicking you're gonna give me always appreciated, dcfcsteve

I read that in King's constituency there are over 50,000 Bangladeshi Muslims. Did she not even have meetings with this constituency or its representatives before she made that vital vote. Given the subsequent vote it would appear
that she wasn't very much in touch with their opinions. I mean, to go from a TEN THOUSAND majority to an 800 approx loss is one helluva fall and to an outsider who obviously was more in tune with those Muslims than she was.

Now she's either 100% Ms. Integrity to take that risk if her vote base is anti-war and/or very arrogant. Wait a minute, wasn't that also said of George Galloway?

Post 37 was also my reply to your comment re. my throwaway remark re MPs - I'm afraid that I have witnessed far, far to many MP/TDs in dodgy dealings to regard the House of Commons/Dail as a vestible of the pure and decent. It does not equate with all woman are etc - that's a cheap and silly comparison to make - but I'm also aware of out and out corruption among FAR TOO MANY public reps - local and national. Have you read Private Eye lately - no, it's not my gospel but contains a lot of verifiable truths. Have you heard of the McCracken, Flood, Hutton etc etc tribunals? 99% my ass.

I'll give you a couple of Irish under the radar examples that occur within the npolitical sphere in the next post just to show how endemically and deeply corrupt the whole system is here and in UK. SEE POST47

Sir Hamish - read my previous posts. I've stated all along that Oona King was a horrible patronising ass-sucking New Labour toady. The fact that George Galloway is an absolute cu*t doesn't change that, and vice-versa.

Secondly - I note that the examples you give of corruption are primarily Irish. I'm not saying the 'UK' (and I don't buy-in to the idea of a 'United Kingdom', as an aisde) is devoid of scandal, but the only example you were able to give was of a leader ignoring common sense to lead the country into a war. Not someone looking to line their own pocket. Bad none-the-less, but on an arguably better angle than most of the sleaze in Ireland. Irish politics has a history of being incredibly corrupt - fact. Which has also had a huge influence on the US system - from Tamanney hall onwards. Anyways - just cuz you're used to a few Hick councillors in the bogs of Ireland being corrupt doesn't mean you can write-off everyone involved in politics in Ireland, and particular the UK. Catch yourself on....

[hamish]

Sir Hamish - read my previous posts. I've stated all along that Oona King was a horrible patronising ass-sucking New Labour toady. The fact that George Galloway is an absolute cu*t doesn't change that, and vice-versa.

Secondly - I note that the examples you give of corruption are primarily Irish. I'm not saying the 'UK' (and I don't buy-in to the idea of a 'United Kingdom', as an aisde) is devoid of scandal, but the only example you were able to give was of a leader ignoring common sense to lead the country into a war. Not someone looking to line their own pocket. Bad none-the-less, but on an arguably better angle than most of the sleaze in Ireland. Irish politics has a history of being incredibly corrupt - fact. Which has also had a huge influence on the US system - from Tamanney hall onwards. Anyways - just cuz you're used to a few Hick councillors in the bogs of Ireland being corrupt doesn't mean you can write-off everyone involved in politics in Ireland, and particular the UK. Catch yourself on....


dcfcsteve - maybe we shouldn't be writing this hour of the morning,
Firstly, "just cuz you're used to know a few Hick councillors in the BOGS of Ireland.."

Is that the best you can really do, dcfcsteve??? These were mere examples of a few local and not so local councillors. There simply is not room to cite all the examples I could give from the national/local press/internet/radio-local and national/magazins etc etc etc.

Using puerile derogatory terms like bogs of Ireland is as idiotic as the other catchall terms you and Jofyisgod use and a sad attempt to cover up the waver thin arguements you are trying to justify.

Did you not read my posts that I was going to cover, from the Guardian election pages, all the elected BRITISH/UK results/winners - was that not crystal clear enough for even you to understand?

I mentioned HUTTON above - did you miss that. Course you did, doesn't fit your arguement. I mentioned Private Eye above..oops..missed that too. Then sure you can also give that magazine a blanket put down too. I think I made it pretty obvious that I was going to attempt to assess as many MPs as possible - missed that too eh?

I have already compiled quite a number of verifiable examples from the UK of shall we say, cross fertilisation involving parties, companies, MPs, councillors etc. When I check to see if these people are still elected the I'll start to post the examples. I might even throw in a few who lost seats if it involved any element of dodgy carry on.

I merely used local issues as a lead into beginning my observations on the UK scene. Missed that too, I guess.

I read your comments on Oona King and like you I also criticised her and Galloway. I gave reasons why I'm less than impressed with King AND Galloway. You mentioned King. Why is Galloway a ".........****". Examples please. What has he done/not done that is so wrong. Educate me!! I've read his recent book. Now let's hear the other side. Evidence please, not slapped on catch all put downs.


dcfcsteve - when you tell people to "catch themselves on" best look in the mirror because your reply was disjointed, arrogant and utterly failed to absorb my variety of points which tried to cover a wide area of debate.
I also made them in a friendly atmosphere which only amplifies the pettiness of your reply. Ok maybe I live near bogs but you know the old saying, "you can take the man out of the bog but not the bog out of the man".
Anyone for a background check? Your good self maybe?


And I did not say I was going to write off everyone. Look above again, I mentioned a target figure of FORTY NINE PER CENT. EVERYONE = 100% Comprende?

[hamish]

Jesus, I haven't even started my run through the MPs but on Sky News Active this morning there's a piece mentioning a newly-created Labour peer - OK OK he's not an MP but a Lord - may have saved £3 million in tax by moving money offshore. Lord Drayson's the name.
Should be fun when I start the Guardian's MPs list.

[jofyisgod]

Should be fun when I start the Guardian's MPs list.


Good Luck! :D Jeez, you must have some serious time on your hands there!

I've tried to make sense of the above posts and can't 100%, so if my reply is slightly off, i apologise.

I do read Private Eye, and there are tales in there, but above all that is a comic publication. It is done for the amusement of the reader, not to bring down political careers. By all means, there will be b@stards in the Commons, but it truly is a minority. The most high-profile downfall of late is Blunkett, and i think he was more acting out of misguided love than a genuine desire to buck the system.

Galloway is arrogant (NOTE:His speech on election night-"political revolution in London', or words to that effect. Crock of shít). I would never buy or read his book-only gonna line his pocket, and stroke his ego. I feel that Oona King genuinely belived in toppling Saddam Hussein, and was willing to put her career on the line to stick to that belief. If that is not a politics of the heart, i don't know what is.

Off-topic: If you want to do multiple quotes, i usually just copy and past the
things again, and then roll down the page to the thread shown below, and copy what i want into the gap. Hope that helps.

[hamish]

Good Luck! :D Jeez, you must have some serious time on your hands there!

I've tried to make sense of the above posts and can't 100%, so if my reply is slightly off, i apologise.

I do read Private Eye, and there are tales in there, but above all that is a comic publication. It is done for the amusement of the reader, not to bring down political careers. By all means, there will be b@stards in the Commons, but it truly is a minority. The most high-profile downfall of late is Blunkett, and i think he was more acting out of misguided love than a genuine desire to buck the system.

Galloway is arrogant (NOTE:His speech on election night-"political revolution in London', or words to that effect. Crock of shít). I would never buy or read his book-only gonna line his pocket, and stroke his ego. I feel that Oona King genuinely belived in toppling Saddam Hussein, and was willing to put her career on the line to stick to that belief. If that is not a politics of the heart, i don't know what is.

Off-topic: If you want to do multiple quotes, i usually just copy and past the things again, and then roll down the page to the thread shown below, and copy what i want into the gap. Hope that helps.

Hey Jofyisgod - thanks for the advice re pasting. On a lighter note, be careful with your name, Galloway might buy it!!, especially the god bit!! :D

As regards his over the top statements, that could be applied to far too many public representatives, whatever country they occupy. In this TV age, with a diminishing audiences for politics/news programmes etc soundbites are almost a necessary evil and, boy, does Galloway spout them. No arguements with you there.
I bought the book because the guy intrigues me and I did state that I have me doots about him so we'll see how he pans out in the coming months/years etc. I must confess mavericks fascinate me - like to check them out.
I'm only gonna give the "project" a try - why not? As for time, got lots of it but have no choice sadly - see profile. Gives me more time to pester you and dcfcsteve. :D
My problem with Oona King is why did she not put her beliefs before her constituents before the vote - that's all. 50,000 Bangladeshi Muslims deserved that. She surely could have made her intentions known to their representatives. Maybe she might have got their support. Obviously she lost her seat because she signally failed to either convince them of her beliefs or just ignored them - big mistake either way. Is it not also egotistical to not consult with one's constituents - genuine beliefs or not?

Private Eye might have a comic element but it was one of the few media elements which stuck its head above the parapet when the Birmingham 6 and Guildford 4 crises were in full swing and we had "eminent" judges talking about "appalling vistas". Nothing comic about that. Besides satire is often a terrific way to cut through the humbug of political/business BS that contaminates so much of life today. Easy to slap a comic label on it - it has a role to play.
I'd forgotten, for example, that Hutton had a previous whitewash in Norn Iron until Private Eye brought it up after last year's BBC/Kelly/Campbell fiasco.

It's opening pages citing the favouritism involving MPs/business etc gave me the idea re. how many are bent/corrupt/on the make/pick your own term.

Don't know how it will pan out but if I get, say, 150 "bent/partly bent/dodgy MPs, that might be only a relatively small percentage but worrying and even more worrying, how many colleagues looked the other way and did nothing to stop/report any fraudulent activity. Happened in the Dail and we're still peeling that onion.

Let's see how it goes.

Cheers, man.

[jofyisgod]

I'm only gonna give the "project" a try - why not? As for time, got lots of it but have no choice sadly - see profile. Gives me more time to pester you and dcfcsteve. :D


Ok, i checked. Well, at least it you have time to take part in fascinating projects like this ;) Who knows, you may even get a novel out of it!

I look forward to seeing the outcome, all the best!
Peter