UK Election

[hamish]

Cheers, jofyisgod/Peter - will give it a try but might have to wait awhile as I've got an eye operation at 11am tomorrow morning but I'm looking forward to Galloway at the US Iraqi thingy in the next day or so - should be a great laugh!!

[jofyisgod]

Cheers, jofyisgod/Peter - will give it a try but might have to wait awhile as I've got an eye operation at 11am tomorrow morning but I'm looking forward to Galloway at the US Iraqi thingy in the next day or so - should be a great laugh!!

All the best for the op-i'm sure you'll be grand. I too am awaiting this Galloway-v-Senate job. Should be good.

Good luck again

[hamish]

Thanks a million, man. Just "saw" it on BBC - whatever we might think about him, he danced rings round the two gobdaws who interviewed him. It was hilarious. Even Fox "News" were in awe!! I suppose they'll relax a while and then start to give him a good kicking in the weeks to come. You're right - he has an enormous ego and appeared to be thoroughly enjoying the attention. :D

[hamish]

Wrong about "the weeks to come" bit. Fox presented a disgracefully edited version in all bulletins, carefully editing out Galloways blitzkreig against Norm Colman* - under his* watch, billions of oil dollars going missing etc etc. Colman looked like a naughty schoolkid squirming in his desk as his teacher gave him a bo.ll...ing. Great theatre. I see Michael Moore's website and Newshounds website are really enjoying the experience.

[paul_oshea]

hamish did you check out gallloway on the news? was very good. the senators refused to give their promised after "match" press conference.

[hamish]

Yeh POS, Colman did his usual after the event snipe at Galloway re. credibility etc. Hadn't the guts to say it to Galloways face. Typical neocon chickenhawk, good at criticism when in a safe place.

[dcfcsteve]

dcfcsteve - maybe we shouldn't be writing this hour of the morning,
Firstly, "just cuz you're used to know a few Hick councillors in the BOGS of Ireland.."

Is that the best you can really do, dcfcsteve??? These were mere examples of a few local and not so local councillors. There simply is not room to cite all the examples I could give from the national/local press/internet/radio-local and national/magazins etc etc etc.

Using puerile derogatory terms like bogs of Ireland is as idiotic as the other catchall terms you and Jofyisgod use and a sad attempt to cover up the waver thin arguements you are trying to justify.

Did you not read my posts that I was going to cover, from the Guardian election pages, all the elected BRITISH/UK results/winners - was that not crystal clear enough for even you to understand?

I mentioned HUTTON above - did you miss that. Course you did, doesn't fit your arguement. I mentioned Private Eye above..oops..missed that too. Then sure you can also give that magazine a blanket put down too. I think I made it pretty obvious that I was going to attempt to assess as many MPs as possible - missed that too eh?

I have already compiled quite a number of verifiable examples from the UK of shall we say, cross fertilisation involving parties, companies, MPs, councillors etc. When I check to see if these people are still elected the I'll start to post the examples. I might even throw in a few who lost seats if it involved any element of dodgy carry on.

I merely used local issues as a lead into beginning my observations on the UK scene. Missed that too, I guess.

I read your comments on Oona King and like you I also criticised her and Galloway. I gave reasons why I'm less than impressed with King AND Galloway. You mentioned King. Why is Galloway a ".........****". Examples please. What has he done/not done that is so wrong. Educate me!! I've read his recent book. Now let's hear the other side. Evidence please, not slapped on catch all put downs.


dcfcsteve - when you tell people to "catch themselves on" best look in the mirror because your reply was disjointed, arrogant and utterly failed to absorb my variety of points which tried to cover a wide area of debate.
I also made them in a friendly atmosphere which only amplifies the pettiness of your reply. Ok maybe I live near bogs but you know the old saying, "you can take the man out of the bog but not the bog out of the man".
Anyone for a background check? Your good self maybe?


And I did not say I was going to write off everyone. Look above again, I mentioned a target figure of FORTY NINE PER CENT. EVERYONE = 100% Comprende?

Finally getting tound to responding to you now SirHamish (though I would've thought from your notes you'd be opposed to the archaic honours system... ? :) )

Firstly - I took your earlier comments basically stating that 'any elected political representative is just a crook' personally. I'll ignore the fact that it was a broad sweep-all statement - the kind for which you've been criticising myself and other posters in this thread.

No - I take it personally because I know a number of elected councillors, Mayors, MP's and MEP's on first-name personal terms. I have friends and former work colleagues who have family members who are elected representatives. Not only that, but I am putting my name forward for selection to stand as a Councillor in London next year, and one day hope to be in a position to stand for parliament myself. Obviously, therefore, I and all the people I know who've I've mentioned above are nought but crooks, fraudsters, charlatans, sheisters etc etc - in it for what they can take out, ratehr than what they can do. Well just for the record - I am not, and they are not. So you'll excuse me if I take your broad-sweep opinions somewhat personally....

I think we can all agree that a sizeable number of people within society genuinely and deeply care about what goes on around them. A number of those people will be in a position whereby they can go on to do something to help society. Some will become police officers, charity workers, doctors, social workers and - shock horror - some may even go on to become elected representatives. I don't think anyone is questioning the sincerity of convictions etc held by the rest of the people who help society out in their own individual way. Yet you seem to be of the view that any genuine public service ethic a human being may possess somehow magically gets erased/extracted as soon as they rise to an elected political position. To be replaced instead, alien-abduction stylee, by a rapacious and all-consuming self-interest that from that moment forth guides their every thought and action.

We all know that a number of people in positions of power and influence are 'bent'. Sadly - since the beginning of time power has had that potential. But if you're genuinely trying to assert that a significant percentage of the UK's MP's - anywhere near 49% of them - are 'corrupt, then I would strongly questioning how you're measuring that corruption. How are you defining 'corruption' ? I used to be Presidnet of my Studens' Union. During my term, I sometime sgot free entry into certain nightclubs in town without having to queue - purely becuase I was SU Pres. On the very odd occassion I'd get given a single free drink when I got in there - no matter if I refused when offered ! It didn't make one jot of difference towards how I fulfilled my role, or how I viewed that club in the context of my role. But surely all of that made me corrupt anyway?

You mentioned before the recent case of a new Labour Minister squirreling his own private money overseas to avoid tax. In other words - criticism of him indulging in legal tax avoidance methods that most of the rest of society also indulge in to whetever degree they can or are aware of. I do tax avoidance. My parents and the rest of my family do it. Any of my friends who are self employed or have bought a house close to a Stamp Duty threshold have done it. Any of their parents who are in old age and have assets over the Inheritance Tax threshold do it. The person I bought my house from did it etc etc. Tax avoidance isn't illegal. Now - you may personally believe that public representatives legally avoiding tax on their own personal money is evidence of corruption. That a public representative should be so pure that as soon as they become elected they should no longer partake in the perfectly legal measures that they would have done were they not elected. I'll admit that it doesn't smell good to have well-off Ministers shuffling their money around to reduce their tax burden, but it certainly isn't corrupt. And if it is - well, hey, change the law and arrest us all.......

It's far too easy these days to slate those who get involved in public life in any way. The media has created a public mindset of crass cynicism towards politics (which admittedly the Tories and Conservatives did much to generate/fuel themselves during their terms in office) which has also impacted how individual politicians are viewed. If you go looking for 'dirt' for your corruption list - particularly if you're using very loose terminology for corrupt activities - then I've no doubt you'll find it, one way or another. I don't see what it will do to address your perceived endemic corruption within the system though, let along improve participation of non-corrupt people within politics. That's not a reason not to compile your list, but as I said - if you go wanting to find something, then chances are you'll find it one way or another.

And ff corruption really is "endemic" within the UK political system, then why do you bother voting ? Surely you're just helping to prop-up the endemically corrupt system by recognising it/playing along, regardless of who you vote for ?

As for my views on George Galloway - I have seen the man speak in public, and I've read enough about him and seen him on TV enough times to have formed a fairly well-considered view of him politically. I haven't read his book, I don't have any statistical evidence to support my opinion that he is a demagogic cu*t. But that's my view anyway. I haven't read any of Bush's books (possibly because he can barely read, let alone write one...) nor met him in person, but I think I've got a fairly clear steer on how I view him politically as well. There's more than one way to form a valid opinion.

P.S. I don't read the Guardian :)

[hamish]

Thanks for taking the time to write back dcfcsteve - appreciate it and will take time to absorb and give it the reply it deserves.

One thing, you're not the only one who has taken/is taking part in the democratic process so don't give me that BS about the personal aspect. I've heard it all before and it was BS then and is BS now. You'll need a thicker skin than that you know for what you're going into. I can't stand it when elected or prospective public representatives take this "hurt" attitude - it's silly frankly.

If I can't find any/much corruption, then I'll state that. There'll be no manufacturing.

You're making the same old mistake again - blame the media. COME ON.

As I said, just started. Will be back.

By the way, I can concede points too and will if I think you have a good case so cut out the arrogant siht, OK?

[dcfcsteve]

One thing, you're not the only one who has taken/is taking part in the democratic process so don't give me that BS about the personal aspect. I've heard it all before and it was BS then and is BS now. You'll need a thicker skin than that you know for what you're going into. I can't stand it when elected or prospective public representatives take this "hurt" attitude - it's silly frankly.

I said that I took your comments personally - not that I felt 'hurt' by them. There's a big difference.


You're making the same old mistake again - blame the media. COME ON.

I stated that the actions of the Tory and Labour governments had much to blame for the level of public and media cynicism.


By the way, I can concede points too and will if I think you have a good case so cut out the arrogant siht, OK?

What the fecks that all about ? Did you bang your head on the shelves above your computer or something.......? :confused:

[hamish]

The media has created a public mindset of crass cynicism towards politics (which admittedly the Tories and Conservatives did much to generate

Steady on, steady on - I haven't even started yet.

Re above quote, I noted in your reply that you conveniently omitted the opening line and stressed the Tories bit - above are your words. By the way, read your own words in that paragraph, you never mentioned Labour in that section. Ever heard of Campbell? So if you cite your own words, don't re-edit them to include Labour.

So, make up your mind, is it the media or the politicians to blame or both.?
How can the media CREATE something if the politicians are to blame - that doesn't make sense.
I feel that BOTH are responsible - no creation involved. It's a feed-off process, isn't it?

[hamish]

[QUOTE=dcfcsteve]I said that I took your comments personally - not that I felt 'hurt' by them. There's a big difference.

What is that difference? - educate me and I'll gladly concede. As stated I'm open to to advice, no hangs up there.

[hamish]

What the fecks that all about ? Did you bang your head on the shelves above your computer or something.......? :confused:[/QUOTE]

If yu're going to indulge in that kind of crap it does you no credit and if you can't understand arrogant then that's your problem.
By, the way, I don't take that...er..put down personally or felt hurt by it, just had a good LOL.

[hamish]

Apologies for the separate posts, I just can't get the hang of including separate quotes in my post so it's a bit long winded.
Hope you can live with that.

By the way, I don't have shelves in my vicinity, thank God. I do enough damage to myself without added perils. :D

Will getb back to your other points in a little while.

[dcfcsteve]

The media has created a public mindset of crass cynicism towards politics (which admittedly the Tories and Conservatives did much to generate

Re above quote, I noted in your reply that you conveniently omitted the opening line and stressed the Tories bit - above are your words. By the way, read your own words in that paragraph, you never mentioned Labour in that section. Ever heard of Campbell? So if you cite your own words, don't re-edit them to include Labour.



Hamish - I would've thought it might have been obvious that it was a typo by me to write "Tories and Conservatives" (yes - even arrogant people like me make typos - shock horror... !), given that we all know they're the same thing. We haven't had any other type of government apart from Tory and Labour recently, so typo aside I was hoping you might've given me the grace of working out that I meant Tories and Labour.

Anyways - genuinely without attempting to dodge your questions/points, the endless reams of tennis responses is becoming a tad tedious. I'll happily debate anything I've written with you over a pint in person should we ever meet up (did someone mention you possibly attending London vs Roscommon on Bank Holiday Sunday ?), but won't be checking into this thread much again aside from that. Again - not shirking by any means. Happy to debate it all with you when/if we meet up, but don't find much interest in endlessly picking apart what someone says for days and weeks on end via the internet. Call me old fashioned.... :)

Let me know when your list of corrupt MP's is up and I'll take a look with interest.

[hamish]

Hamish - I would've thought it might have been obvious that it was a typo by me to write "Tories and Conservatives" (yes - even arrogant people like me make typos - shock horror... !), given that we all know they're the same thing. We haven't had any other type of government apart from Tory and Labour recently, so typo aside I was hoping you might've given me the grace of working out that I meant Tories and Labour.

Anyways - genuinely without attempting to dodge your questions/points, the endless reams of tennis responses is becoming a tad tedious. I'll happily debate anything I've written with you over a pint in person should we ever meet up (did someone mention you possibly attending London vs Roscommon on Bank Holiday Sunday ?), but won't be checking into this thread much again aside from that. Again - not shirking by any means. Happy to debate it all with you when/if we meet up, but don't find much interest in endlessly picking apart what someone says for days and weeks on end via the internet. Call me old fashioned.... :)

Let me know when your list of corrupt MP's is up and I'll take a look with interest.

Love to have a pint (make that plural dcfcteve) and you're welcome over here to drop in if you happen to be in the area -fcuk it I'll even buy the first round.

You're not arrogant - I was just messing with you - it's a naughty tactic I use to get under a person's skin to see what they're really made of...

Just curious - will you be an independent, labour or lib dem? You don't have to answer that if you don't want to.

I'll try to answer your main post, above, as quickly as I can and as briefly as I can (anyway I hate Tennis) as I'm sure you're probably campaigning and appreciate the time you've taken with me - honest comment, 100% sarcasm free. :)

I'm a bit under the weather at the moment and will try to get stuck into that post of yours tomorrow Saturday.

Bye.