Republic of Ireland v. Wales - Friday, 24th March 2017 - World Cup 2018 Qualifier

[paul_oshea]

ya owls, i hope he can come back teh same player, but whatever about a striker or winger or whatever a Defender has to challenge first, its his bread and butter stuff. If there is any unwillingness or psychological issues it makes it much more difficult to get back to and be your best. Colemans biggest asset is is pace and speed. That never seems to be the same after these things either. Heres hoping anyway. If he is back before Christmas he will be doing really well. Poor lad, whatever chance he had of a big move is probably now gone also :(

[DeLorean]

If Seamie doesn't break his leg I'm still sending Taylor off.

I don't think anybody is saying it's not a red card tackle if Coleman doesn't get hurt. I honestly think the ref is sending him off either way too. I just don't think it's a tackle worthy of further punishment. Not comparable to the Deli Alli one, for example, at all in my opinion, where hurting the player was the only thing on his mind.

Neither do I really agree that the Bale yellow gave other players licence to do whatever they pleased. They're two very different incidents and I can see why he's thinking Bale is going for the ball at least, even if he got it wrong. This idea of not wanting to send off a big name player is highly speculative too. It's just an unfortunate coincidence that within seconds two players were going full blooded for a 55/45 ball in Coleman's favour.

Like the Ramsey/Shawcross one it happened very fast but I think Taylor could have done more to avoid it than Shawcross that time.

[paul_oshea]

Does anyone think Keanes comments gave them incentive, and Colemans the one who suffered. I don't think Ireland were dirty in the first half, but what keane said must have reasonated and coleman had them coming out dirty in the 2nd half.

[Stuttgart88]

The more I think of it the more I think it was a Trapattoni performance. Good without the ball, not good with it.

"Win at home draw away" has been redundant for us for ages because it's probably been the McCarthy era since we could reliably win at home. I think one win over Austria or Serbia will do the trick though (for 2nd). I think Austria looked poor even at home to Moldova and Moldova missed a sitter at 1-0 down. Our media will be deifying Alaba in the days before the game though.

[paul_oshea]

Serbias defence is brutal, but if you don't utilise your strengths against an opponents weakness then it doesn't make a difference. They will be more attack minded when they come to Dublin, I can not see us winning that game at all. Be like so many others before them. 1-1 written all over it. If Georgia had taken that 2nd chance or even the 3rd one, it was game over in Tblisi and we were plain sailing from here on in. But where would the excitement be in that? Where would the Irishness be in that.

[DeLorean]

Does anyone think Keanes comments gave them incentive, and Colemans the one who suffered. I don't think Ireland were dirty in the first half, but what keane said must have reasonated and coleman had them coming out dirty in the 2nd half.

What Keane said was completely overblown by the media to begin with. He was asked how they were going to deal with Bale and he basically said by tackling him, that tackling is a part of football after all. If Wales were going to come out dirty because of those comments, surely it should have been in the first half?

[shakermaker1982]

Coleman got them pumped going out for the 2nd half because of the so called aggression we showed themin the first half.

Shane Long didn't do anything wrong, that's football - just a striker showing his physicality . Williams clattered into our strikers all game. The Whelan one - I'd have to see it again. Only he knows if he mean to elbow Allen in the throat. To be honest not sure why you'd have your elbow up that high in the first place...still doesn't justify two potential leg breakers.

We are still in a great position but that was a disappointing performance with the ball. I think MO'N was too cautious and should take some blame but I will acknowledge he was dealt a very bad hand with injuries. I mentioned a few days ago it was a Trap era starting 11 and that's what we got. When you've got Mr Sideways and Meyler in the centre of midfield creatity is always going to be non existent. Look how many times Whelan passed the buck to the centre backs and full backs. Our back 4 (bar Coleman) have never been comfortable on the ball so of course they'll just hoof it. The onus is on the midfield to get the ball and link our attacks. Also didn't help that our one decent ball player had an unually poor game by his standards (Hendrick). Slot Arter/Brady and Hoolahan back into the side and we get a different performance.

The defenders were crap with the call but I must say they were superb defensively. Wales created nothing. Ziltch. Fair play - we are easy to dish them criticism when they have a stinker so well done to the back 4.

[DeLorean]

Win your home games and draw your (big) away games is a sound philosophy all the same, and we've pretty much done that so far (just swapping an away win in Austria for a home draw with Wales).

Basically eleven points would have been the maximum, realistic target I think anybody could have hoped for at this stage (despite some posters thinking every other team is there for the taking as if we're not :)).

We're in a brilliant position, I think people should be a bit more positive. Okay it was a bit of a caveman performance but we were absolutely ripped apart with injuries in terms of both our creative players and set piece threats. God knows we look limited enough even when they're available.

Restricting them was always going to be priority number one and unfortunately we never looked equipped to engineer anything too positive at the other end. I would have started McGeady (good call OwlsFan) to help in this regard but it is what it is.

Losing Coleman is a far bigger setback than the two points allegedly dropped.

[geysir]

This is Wales' supposedly golden generation versus our lot and the only real danger here moment was Bale's moment of grabbing the bit and lining up that quality shot.

[jbyrne]

IMHO Taylor was sent off not because of the tackle, but because Coleman broke his leg. If Coleman jumps back up and trots off without any ill effect i'd speculate Taylor probably gets away with a booking.



cant agree with this. the ref had his hand in his back pocket for the red within a second of the challenge when he had no idea if the leg was broken or not. Taylor connected with Coleman mid shin after sliding in and that's a red all day to me.

players owe each other a duty of care and when you go in like Taylor did you need to be pretty sure you are going to come away with the ball cleanly if you are going to go in like that.

[BonnieShels]

cant agree with this. the ref had his hand in his back pocket for the red within a second of the challenge when he had no idea if the leg was broken or not. Taylor connected with Coleman mid shin after sliding in and that's a red all day to me.

players owe each other a duty of care and when you go in like Taylor did you need to be pretty sure you are going to come away with the ball cleanly if you are going to go in like that.

100% on the whole post. He didn't hesitate to send him off.

[DeLorean]

Is anybody actually saying that players don't owe each other a duty of care?

[BonnieShels]

Is anybody actually saying that players don't owe each other a duty of care?

No. But there is a some sort of prevailing notion that the intent or the past of Taylor is what we should be looking at here. In fact there's an underlying commentary (not just on here) that it was the referee that made Taylor be reckless because of that he let go. So those of us who disagree will keep making that same point.

[DeLorean]

He got a red card for not showing his opponent due care. Of course the level of intent has to be taken into consideration when determining any extra punishment. Drawing a line completely through the level of 'intent' is just not very practical I don't think.

[backstothewall]

All players do owe each other a duty of care. One of the things that most concerns me about refereeing is how those tackles are let go in park football where the players have real jobs they can lose if they end up breaking their leg on a Saturday afternoon or Sunday morning.

[DeLorean]

Serbias defence is brutal, but if you don't utilise your strengths against an opponents weakness then it doesn't make a difference. They will be more attack minded when they come to Dublin, I can not see us winning that game at all. Be like so many others before them. 1-1 written all over it.

More attack minded than what?

If their defence is that brutal then of course we can beat them. I think overall we're pretty okay at utilising our strengths. What do you consider those strengths to be? It was mainly set pieces in the last campaign that served us so well, and indeed against them a couple of months back.

[Stuttgart88]

It's too early to make predictions. Only 3 weeks ago this forum was awash with posts about how all our key players are fit and playing regularly and when match day came around we had a pretty threadbare squad. If we have a full XI I'd think it's there to be won. Without our creative players I think we could lose by a couple. I'm not convinced we really have it in us under MON to play without fear and caution though, unless it's a Lille type win or bust.

[DeLorean]

Yeah Austria is all that matters for now. At the half way point I think we can be pretty chuffed though, especially considering ourselves and Wales had the most difficult starts on paper (i.e. 2/3 games against the 'Big Four' were away).

Did we play without fear and caution against Sweden at the Euros, at least for the first hour or so? I'm not too concerned about that in any case. Pragmatic football is fine by me but obviously we will need to be a bit more threatening in our two big home games to come.

[Stuttgart88]

To have the luxury of being able to lose game 6 yet still being guaranteed of at being least second going into the next game is pretty rare alright.

[DannyInvincible]

See this is it, on TV the other night Taylor spat on the ground as he left the arena, now players spit all the time, and I don't want to crucify him for it, I'm willing to believe the tales of his remorse, but at the time with RTE saying there will be no replays of the challenge etc, that spit moment as he passed the Irish bench, made me want to do the time for his murder.

Taylor seemed to indicate or gesture some form of apology to Roy Keane on his way past the Irish bench and Roy patted him on the back or shoulder, if I recall correctly, as if to acknowledge Taylor's remorse and accept that he didn't mean to injure Coleman.

What do you think Taylor spitting indicated? I don't think a huge deal can be read into spitting on the ground.


IMHO Taylor was sent off not because of the tackle, but because Coleman broke his leg. If Coleman jumps back up and trots off without any ill effect i'd speculate Taylor probably gets away with a booking.

Players throw themselves into tackles like that all the time. It's incredibly rare for it to go as badly wrong as it did for Coleman. Throwing the book at him for breaking Colemans leg will achieve nothing because no player goes into a tackle worrying about breaking the other guys leg.

If we want to stamp those sort of challenges out it isn't about stiff punishments for people who break another guys leg. It needs to be about stiffer punishments for the guys who don't hurt anybody, get up, take their booking and think no more about it. I'm sure Neil Taylor feels bad enough already

Arguably, James McClean's tackle against Milik when he came on against Poland in Dublin during the last Euros qualifying campaign could be placed in the dangerous/excessive red-card category, yet McClean was roundly applauded for his aggression, and this was in spite of the fact Milik was kept out of action for a few weeks after the game as a result.

As far as Taylor's tackle was concerned, I'm pretty sure the ref was going straight for the red card in his pocket and waved it at Taylor before he even looked at Coleman to gauge the seriousness of the damage done.


I'm tired of this intent shoite being bandied about. Everyone who goes out on the pitch has a duty of care to the other players. Taylor had a duty of care not to recklessly challenge in the fashion that he did and the same goes for Bale.

Taylor should have the book (or whatever way UEFA/FIFA keep their rules bound) thrown at him. But likewise to anybody who tackles that way whether causing injury or not.

Yup, the rule-book is pretty clear: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/footballdevelopment/refereeing/02/79/92/44/laws.of.the.game.2016.2017_neutral.pdf#page=86


Sending-off offences

A player, substitute or substituted player who commits any of the following offences is sent off:

• denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (except a goalkeeper within their penalty area)
• denying an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the opponents’ goal by an offence punishable by a free kick (unless as outlined below)
• serious foul play
• spitting at an opponent or any other person
• violent conduct
• using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures
• receiving a second caution in the same match

A player, substitute or substituted player who has been sent off must leave the vicinity of the field of play and the technical area.

...

Serious foul play

A tackle or challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent or uses excessive force or brutality must be sanctioned as serious foul play.

Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force or endangers the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play.

Violent conduct

Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.

In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.

There is no intent required for a tackle to be deemed serious foul play, so, even if Taylor didn't mean it, he can have very little complaint about being sent off. Intent can come into violent conduct, however.

[DeLorean]

All pretty subjective though. What's excessive force to me might not be excessive force to you. McClean is a good example actually, certainly as a case could be made for excessive force there and I remember getting shot down for debating a Ciaran Clark tackle for Villa along the same lines on here.

It might not be in the rules or whatever but 'intent' surely has a big part to play? Why would Deli Alli get an extra ban on top of the straight red otherwise? In terms of endangering his opponent the only thing that separated it from the likes of Taylor's one was the level of intent I think. But, yeah, agreed - Taylor's is a red card regardless of intent. I think everybody agrees with that.

[DannyInvincible]

Yeah Austria is all that matters for now. At the half way point I think we can be pretty chuffed though, especially considering ourselves and Wales had the most difficult starts on paper (i.e. 2/3 games against the 'Big Four' were away).

For what it's worth, we're still very slight favourites with the bookies to win the group: http://world-cup.betting-directory.com/group-d-qualifying.php

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/poguemahone85/Capture_zpsp2fac6cu.png

It would have been lovely had Georgia scored that sitter to put them 2-0 ahead against Serbia before giving away a daft penalty and/or had McClean's late volley nestled into the corner of Hennessy's net instead of taking a deflection for a corner, but as Paul says, to be in such a comfortable position at this juncture would be so utterly atypical so as to be distinctly un-Irish!

[DannyInvincible]

All pretty subjective though. What's excessive force to me might not be excessive force to you.

Agreed, and indeed this is why you'll have inconsistency across the board in terms of what refs deem excessive and acceptable.


It might not be in the rules or whatever but 'intent' surely has a big part to play? Why would Deli Alli get an extra ban on top of the straight red otherwise? In terms of endangering his opponent the only thing that separated it from the likes of Taylor's one was the level of intent I think.

You make a fair point. Would Deli Alli's have crossed into the (presumably a bit more serious) violent conduct category?

[Drumcondra 69er]

Usual blog on the game for those that follow it. Few thoughts on what I made of the Bale and Taylor challenges as well.

Cymru Plaid Their Cards Wrong (http://afalsefirstxi.blogspot.ie/2017/03/wales-plaid-their-cards-wrong.html)

[SkStu]

would it be fair to say that Bale's tackle on O'Shea was as bad as Taylor's was on Coleman? They were both ridiculously late, over the top and reckless - the only difference being that Taylor snapped a standing leg whereas Bale chopped the kicking leg.

I think that these tackles (not to mention the boots to the head (Whelan) and chest (McClean)) show that Wales came out in the 2nd half under very specific orders to test the line of what the ref would accept. I agree with Pauls assertion (similar to my own) that the ref was good in that he let a lot go but that also he was bad in that he let too much go and Wales pushed that grace to the limits.

In the cold light of day, I think Wales should be ashamed with how they came out to play in that 2nd half from a physicality perspective. There's enough evidence to show they came out with a different mindset. I think its scummy.

[irishfan86]

I don't know Stu, I doubt the players are being sent out to break legs. Perhaps they were told to play aggressively but I think that's different than what we saw.

I was shouting for Bale to be sent off for that late slide on O'Shea -- I thought that was atrocious. I'm sure the ref had a think too but perhaps the name on the back of the player's jersey saved him.

Suspect this was less a tactical move to come out physically and more a reaction to Wales feeling a bit desperate to get a win.

[SkStu]

I don't know Stu, I doubt the players are being sent out to break legs. Perhaps they were told to play aggressively but I think that's different than what we saw.

I was shouting for Bale to be sent off for that late slide on O'Shea -- I thought that was atrocious. I'm sure the ref had a think too but perhaps the name on the back of the player's jersey saved him.

Suspect this was less a tactical move to come out physically and more a reaction to Wales feeling a bit desperate to get a win.

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that they came out to break legs or cause serious injury but they came out to play far more physically and test a lenient ref on where his line was. In the process they went way beyond acceptability to the extent that they committed a potentially career ending offense to find out where that line was. Taylor sees Bale gets yellow therefore he is encouraged to commit a similarly reckless tackle based on the ref's line. I will take back the word "scummy" and replace it with "reckless".

[geysir]

I wouldn't overthink about the tackles too much, but at the same time I wouldn't put it past Coleman to have hyped up the physicalities at half time.

The state of affairs now is that we have to beat Georgia away, a few days before we meet Serbia and if anyone thinks that there's no home and away effect when it comes to Georgia, is living in cuckoo land. I don't think we missed an opportunity to beat Wales, a draw was a reasonable outcome on the day that was in it and that hurt Wales more than it hurt us, nevertheless, Wales with some glimmer of hope are well capable to give Serbia a game.

[DannyInvincible]

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that they came out to break legs or cause serious injury but they came out to play far more physically and test a lenient ref on where his line was. In the process they went way beyond acceptability to the extent that they committed a potentially career ending offense to find out where that line was. Taylor sees Bale gets yellow therefore he is encouraged to commit a similarly reckless tackle based on the ref's line. I will take back the word "scummy" and replace it with "reckless".

Play that is deemed to be reckless warrants a yellow card, according the rules (http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/footballdevelopment/refereeing/02/79/92/44/laws.of.the.game.2016.2017_neutral.pdf#page=81). When play is deemed to be dangerous (in terms of its potential to threaten a player's safety or cause injury) or excessively forceful, it crosses into red-card territory.


Direct free kick

A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences against an opponent in a manner considered by the referee to be careless,reckless or using excessive force:

• charges
• jumps at
• kicks or attempts to kick
• pushes
• strikes or attempts to strike (including head-butt)
• tackles or challenges
• trips or attempts to trip

If an offence involves contact it is penalised by a direct free kick or penalty kick.

• Careless is when a player shows a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or acts without precaution. No disciplinary sanction is needed
• Reckless is when a player acts with disregard to the danger to, or consequences for, an opponent and must be cautioned
• Using excessive force is when a player exceeds the necessary use of force and endangers the safety of an opponent and must be sent off

...

Cautions for unsporting behaviour

There are different circumstances when a player must be cautioned for unsporting behaviour including if a player:

• attempts to deceive the referee e.g. by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled (simulation)
• changes places with the goalkeeper during play or without the referee’s permission
• commits in a reckless manner a direct free kick offence
• commits a foul or handles the ball to interfere with or stop a promising attack
• handles the ball in an attempt to score a goal (whether or not the attempt is successful) or in an unsuccessful attempt to prevent a goal
• makes unauthorised marks on the field of play
• plays the ball when leaving the field of play after being given permission to leave
• shows a lack of respect for the game
• uses a deliberate trick to pass the ball (including from a free kick) to the goalkeeper with the head, chest, knee etc. to circumvent the Law, whether or not the goalkeeper touches the ball with the hands
• verbally distracts an opponent during play or at a restart

[SkStu]

To be fair, I wasn't referencing the rule book.

[DeLorean]

I'm not saying it isn't a foul, I'm not even saying it isn't a red card... but is Bale not just desperately trying to reach the cross to score but O'Shea gets there before him? He looks miles late in the super slow mo but in real time it's split second stuff? I certainly don't think it's a 'let's ruff them up' kind of tackle anyway and I do think Taylor's is a fair bit worse.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'm not saying it isn't a foul, I'm not even saying it isn't a red card... but is Bale not just desperately trying to reach the cross to score but O'Shea gets there before him? He looks miles late in the super slow mo but in real time it's split second stuff? I certainly don't think it's a 'let's ruff them up' kind of tackle anyway and I do think Taylor's is a fair bit worse.
In real time in the ground (that's right, Paul O'Shea) I thought it was a red.

[SkStu]

Taylor's was split second stuff too. It's irrelevant. That's football. From experience, there's still time to pull out of (or modify) a challenge.

From the comfort of my couch :) , Bale's tackle was ridiculously late, studs up and high. Bad (or sick!) person.

[Charlie Darwin]

Taylor's was split second stuff too. It's irrelevant. That's football. From experience, there's still time to pull out of (or modify) a challenge.

From the comfort of my couch :) , Bale's tackle was ridiculously late, studs up and high. Bad (or sick!) person.
Your couch? You'll never get into the YBIG real fans whatsapp group with that attitude.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Both were awful. Taylor was miles off the ground and studs at a 90 degree angle to Coleman's shin. Coward's challenge. O'Shea got lucky with Bales.

People talking about whether it was premeditated. I don't think he thought 5 minutes before I'm gonna do this lad. It's a snap decision and he took the cowards option. No danger of hurting himself but might hurt the opponent. Bale did the same. Professionals know this, it was a cnuts challenge. Feet in the air and out of control.

[Stuttgart88]

Had Taylor got the ball and been penalised anyway the Alan Hansens of this world would be moaning about the game going soft and that you can't tackle anymore, it's a non-contact sport now.

[BonnieShels]

But getting the ball is the only thing that stops a reckless challenge not being a foul don't ya know.

[DeLorean]

I think the majority on here certainly felt that way when McClean broke Milik up.

[geysir]

But getting the ball is the only thing that stops a reckless challenge not being a foul don't ya know.
The pundits' desperate attempts to find evidence that the ball had been slightly kissed by the tackler, in order to absolve the foul?

However it's not all a non-contact sport, there's still room for the classic sliding tackle
Sometimes clearly getting the ball in the tackle does genuinely absolve the act of first clattering into the attacking player

Vardy felled (https://youtu.be/olIZEV4aG-w?t=540)

[Stuttgart88]

Stephen Elliott's take on the key ref decisions.

https://www.sportdec.com/app/article-single/uaqpxw6fgiq119f4dn6k72n9g

I agree almost completely but I see the rugby analogy at the end as a bit of a red herring. There's no doubt referees are shown more respect in rugby but the players' attitude to the ref was a non-issue on Friday. Players' lack of respect for their opponents was the big issue in our game. I'm not sure France showed much respect for Wayne Barnes or the spirit of the game in general when they declared a head injury assessment was warranted last week.

[geysir]

Stephen Elliott's take on the key ref decisions.

https://www.sportdec.com/app/article-single/uaqpxw6fgiq119f4dn6k72n9g

I agree almost completely but I see the rugby analogy at the end as a bit of a red herring. There's no doubt referees are shown more respect in rugby but the players' attitude to the ref was a non-issue on Friday. Players' lack of respect for their opponents was the big issue in our game. I'm not sure France showed much respect for Wayne Barnes or the spirit of the game in general when they declared a head injury assessment was warranted last week.


I thought Stephen was being sarcastic when he wrote re rugby " We never see refereeing decisions taking over it's post match headlines."
Was that not the photo of the time when Rory Best challenged the ref about protection for Sexton? Perhaps not.

[tetsujin1979]

_NG0tnLV8yM

[tetsujin1979]

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