Long ball or not? Quality of football [Archive]

drinkfeckarse

02/02/2005, 2:31 PM

I think he was too much of a footballer for some of them.

That is so true it's not even funny. Don't know the guy, never even seen him play but unfortunately I know what you mean when you say that.

There are a fair few EL fans who, if the player isn't seen to be hoofing it up the park out of dangers way, they will scream abuse at him. If he can play a bit of football then he can be seen as "fannying about".

I have witnessed this myself and have laughed to myself when I have heard them same fans moaning about the team playing sh!te football :rolleyes: :mad:

anto1208

02/02/2005, 4:34 PM

One of the most positive aspects of last season's campaign so Pats should snap him up if they can. Wonder did Drew or Noel contact him about coming back to us? With a princely sum of $50 on the table how would he be able to say no!! :rolleyes:

i just heard he was nt offerd a contract by limerick he wanted one and was waiting for it but it never happened. limerick released him to play for a dutch team .he is on trial now with pats

i know what ye mean about being too much of a footballer too . the long ball and chase it is all that is played in loi until teams change this it will allways be a joke of a league

Éanna

02/02/2005, 4:42 PM

That is so true it's not even funny. Don't know the guy, never even seen him play but unfortunately I know what you mean when you say that.

There are a fair few EL fans who, if the player isn't seen to be hoofing it up the park out of dangers way, they will scream abuse at him. If he can play a bit of football then he can be seen as "fannying about".

I have witnessed this myself and have laughed to myself when I have heard them same fans moaning about the team playing sh!te football :rolleyes: :mad:
yeah, I know exactly what he's getting at. I've heard some "interesting" comments from people like this in the past. Still, its not only in this league- I remember being at a game in the Bernabeu, and there was a guy a few rows back who kept roaring "Zidane inutil" (Zidane, you're useless) all the time :rolleyes: :D

wws

02/02/2005, 4:43 PM

anto1234

its easy to say its all long ball this/ etc

its just a generalisation - at the top end of the spectrum a team like Shelbourne were all full time pros who would have had to bring a certain amount of tactical sophistication and awareness to bear in order to get results in competitive action v Split, Lille and Deportivo - while they are undoubtedley the best the others in the prem are hardly light years behind - they just dont have the personnel/ or resources to go fully full time like shels have

its easy to say its "all long ball" but in all fairness there a hell of a lot of that goes into a performin in prem team in this country

anto1208

02/02/2005, 5:03 PM

come off it i watched all those european games and they were a very poor . they played out of there skins all right but none of it was impressive. its still at a standard of the english 2nd div . and for a country who's international team is nearly inthe top 10 we should have a way better league in this country .

alot of money has to be spent in developing players from very young . by rights what should be done is teams use players that will pass the ball and run at players but instead they opt for the big guy up front and kick the ball at him . ive followed loi for about 15 years and have nt seen a real talent for a good 5 years maybe more

Éanna

02/02/2005, 5:13 PM

come off it i watched all those european games and they were a very poor . they played out of there skins all right but none of it was impressive.
"they played out of their skins" but "they were very poor" :confused: How do you work that out? Look at the quality of the last 2 teams they played, Depor may not be having a great season, but they're still a decent Primera Liga side, and Lille are 2nd in the French league, and looking like they might win it. Obviously shels aren't going to be all over them. What they did was take the correct approach for any underdog- play to your strengths and try and nick a goal.

its still at a standard of the english 2nd div . and for a country who's international team is nearly inthe top 10 we should have a way better league in this country .the league as a whole probably is at about that standard, but the top 2 or 3 teams in the Premier would IMO survive in the 1st division. Anyway, why do we always compare ourselves to england- this season we proved that our champions were better than iceland and croatia, and a decent match for a french and spanish team. We also proved that our 2nd best team was good enough to beat a team thats just won the swedish league, a mid-table dutch side, and gave a good account of themselves to a decent french team. It doesn't really matter whether the football is nice to watch, once you get the results. Obviously its nice to watch good football, but ask any fan what they'd rather from their team- success or nice football?

alot of money has to be spent in developing players from very young
we all know that. tell the FAI or the government!

by rights what should be done is teams use players that will pass the ball and run at players but instead they opt for the big guy up front and kick the ball at him .
have you watched Cork City FC lately? :)

ive followed loi for about 15 years and have nt seen a real talent for a good 5 years maybe more
by your own admission you've been watching 1st division games, so that might go a long way to explaining why! There are some excellent players out there. Why else would guys like Murphy, Kearney and Doyle done so well for the U21's? or Crowe and Byrne being called up for the senior team?

Éanna

02/02/2005, 5:15 PM

Lads, I split the thread because it was gone way off topic. interesting discussion though. keep it going :)
Éanna

Éanna

02/02/2005, 5:18 PM

Lads, I split the thread because it was gone way off topic. interesting discussion though. keep it going here (http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=21651) :)
Éanna

Bald Student

02/02/2005, 5:28 PM

they opt for the big guy up front and kick the ball at him . Yeah, that Glen Fitzpatrick is huge, he must be about five and a half foot. You're generalising here Anto, some teams play long ball, some don't. Most teams occasionally play it the same as in any other competition

Éanna

02/02/2005, 5:30 PM

IMO, there's a big difference between aimless hoofing and hitting the ball long effectively. If you have pacey forwards, or forwards who are good in the air, then its just playing to their strengths to hit a high ball up to them, or to hit one over the top. there's nothing wrong with that- hasn't beckham built his entire career on "precision hoofing" :)

anto1208

02/02/2005, 5:31 PM

theres a lot of questions ill try to answer them all
played out of there skins meeans they played to the absolute best of there ability . which still was nt that good . does that make more sense .
im not trying to take anything away from them they did really well but the teams they played were in pre season training , shels were playing league games which will affect match fittness , they were underdogs playing to there strengths this is true what i want for irish teams is not to be the underdog for some day to be able to go out and play these teams off the pitch .

i compare it to the english league coz its close and i dont know much about the croatian 2 nd div !!

i understand what you say about fans prefere results to nice football id say the decline in attendences and the decline in the type of football play might have some connection .

ive tried telling the fai and goverment but they dont listen to little guys like me , only the big guys like keane thats why his stand in saipan was so important we need a few more of them to shake it up .

i have seen cork a few times and ill admit they do try to play ball some times but the main problem is all the young talent goes to england rather than staying here no fault to them its the right thing to do but they should have the same oportunities here .

kinda proves what im saying when the best in the country was crowe and sereously he is nt even that good , he wont take robbie keane or even morrisons place

anto1208

02/02/2005, 5:32 PM

Yeah, that Glen Fitzpatrick is huge, he must be about five and a half foot. You're generalising here Anto, some teams play long ball, some don't. Most teams occasionally play it the same as in any other competition

kinda have to generalise when you are talking about all the teams in one sentence !!! :D

but does he play up front on his own ?

Bald Student

02/02/2005, 6:19 PM

does he play up front on his own ?Sometimes he does, most times he doesn't. Good managers adjust their tactics to suit each game. The same as in every other competition.

Xlex

02/02/2005, 6:31 PM

UCD were relegated two years ago. Playing some of the nicest football in the process.

Drogheda play some fine football too and came third last season, lacking the depth to finish higher and none of the luck that cup specialists have... ;)

Two very different outcomes of a good footballing side in the eL

Slash/ED

02/02/2005, 6:38 PM

theres a lot of questions ill try to answer them all
played out of there skins meeans they played to the absolute best of there ability . which still was nt that good .

So drawing with last years CL semi finalists and one of the contenders for this years French league is "nt that good" and division two standard? You have a weird view of the respective strenghts of certain leagues in Europe if you think that. Also neither Deportivo and espically not Lille were in "pre season training" when we played them. Deportivos season had started when we played them and Lille were a good few games back into their season.

We also didn't punt the ball forward aimlessly, at least not until late on like every other team in Europe does if they need a goal late on, mainly because since moving Harris to the back we've nobody who can dominate in the air. Despite his goals v Lille Fitzpatrick is generally not very good at all in the air, he's not exactly your Gary Doherty type.

Neil

02/02/2005, 7:05 PM

Shelbourne aside, I think most teams in the eL at least try to play football properly. It's a good change. I suppose because Shels don't have any supporters they don't feel a need to impress anyone. It's a pity.

pete

03/02/2005, 9:22 AM

Passing football is a utopian dream. Theres a difference between long balls which used in all the top leagues & hoofs.

wws

03/02/2005, 9:32 AM

was just about to point out that the title of this thread is ridiculous - a long ball that finds a player on your team is one of the best moves in football

Jason Byrne is the leagues top striker and he gets goals from all sorts of situations

I think anto ure stuck in 1988 with the idea of "long ball" and "da big man up front" - all football has moved on since Jack Charlton let alone Irish football

drinkfeckarse

03/02/2005, 9:59 AM

Just going back to my original post, I agree with Eanna, I should make it clear that the attitude I was talking about applies to all levels of football IMO. Not just the EL. :)

Ronnie

03/02/2005, 10:31 AM

Last weekend Wayne Rooney scored 2 cracking goals in a match in Britain, funnily enough bothe came from long balls from the back.

That aside, if you look at the game and ask why do teams have to play a lot of long ball you must look at the opposition also. Theres no way in Ireland, or in the Britiah Leagues a keeper will be allowed pass the ball to his centre half or full back without an opposition player closing him down. Watch a game from Britain and see how may times kick outs are played long, nearly all the time, its all about winning the second ball in the middle of the park and play your football from there.
In European soccer teams are content to let the opposition carry the ball almost to the halfway line, taking a pass from the keeper unchallenged.

anto1208

03/02/2005, 12:45 PM

rooney did not score from long balls one was a flick on from a keeper kicking it out the other was from a through ball .

ye say a long ball is one of the best moves in foot ball i say watching a team kick 40 long balls and only one comes off is rubbish football . simple fact

the title was nothing to do with me this was a different topic that was moved and re titled by some one i dont know who !!.

now lads dont be silly the standard in the el is terrible from top to bottom a few results in big cup games does nt prove anything .liverpool were embarresed by burnley but no one would dream of saying burnley are better than them . which is the impression im getting by the constant reminder of the few good results in europe ( none of which were convincing )

Éanna

03/02/2005, 12:54 PM

rooney did not score from long balls one was a flick on from a keeper kicking it out the other was from a through ball .

"a flick on from a keeper kicking it out" How the HELL is that not a long ball? its classic route one!!!! :rolleyes:

ye say a long ball is one of the best moves in foot ball i say watching a team kick 40 long balls and only one comes off is rubbish football . simple fact
the object of the game is to score goals and win games- if you hit the ball long and you score from it, its a successful move, therefore.......

now lads dont be silly the standard in the el is terrible from top to bottom a few results in big cup games does nt prove anything .liverpool were embarresed by burnley but no one would dream of saying burnley are better than them . which is the impression im getting by the constant reminder of the few good results in europe ( none of which were convincing )
So how else do you prove yourself? You can only win the games you play. You make absolutely NO sense at all

Éanna

03/02/2005, 12:55 PM

was just about to point out that the title of this thread is ridiculous - a long ball that finds a player on your team is one of the best moves in football
my humble apologies. I stuck that title on when I split it from another thread, because it was a debate about the long ball.

sadloserkid

03/02/2005, 1:58 PM

If Jalmard Kulsten only knew what he'd started... :rolleyes:

wws

03/02/2005, 2:02 PM

....if this "Yalmard Kulsten" doesnt play like the new Pele on friday v dublin city im goin to hunt down anto1208 and beat him over the head with a haddock

anto1208

03/02/2005, 3:09 PM

haddock related incidents are on the increase all right !! .

i did nt start this discusion just joined in half way through :D

LFC in Exile

03/02/2005, 3:27 PM

anto1208

03/02/2005, 4:52 PM

"a flick on from a keeper kicking it out" How the HELL is that not a long ball? its classic route one!!!! :rolleyes:

what i was trying to say is the teams that allways play long ball if they have it in midfield they will knock it back to a defender and he will hoof it at the striker , team s that this is there only real means of attack . which in turn because it normally is cleared keeps your defence under pressure . if a team takes the ball down and passes it about it give s the defence a break , and also if the other team keeps closing them down just keep knocking it about they cant chase it for 90 mins .

the object of the game is to score goals and win games- if you hit the ball long and you score from it, its a successful move, therefore.......

so you would be happy to go week in week out watching your team punt the ball up the pitch all day long as long as one of the 100 long balls resulted in a goal . im not going to pay to watch that i want to see teams move it about get down the wings , throught the channels , play balls through and behind defenders.

So how else do you prove yourself? You can only win the games you play. You make absolutely NO sense at all

yes but in knock out cup games the big match effect takes hold this allows smaller teams to play really well for there ability and maybe scrape a result .

a small team getting a once of result in no way means there are better than the other team that have proven them self stime and time again against top europeen teams .
i think it was exeter drew with utd by yer logic this means exeter are as good as man utd !! any one see where im coming from at all

Slash/ED

03/02/2005, 5:39 PM

i think it was exeter drew with utd by yer logic this means exeter are as good as man utd !! any one see where im coming from at all

Exeter drew with Man U reserves/youth team who had never played together before, Burley knocked out a Liverpool reserve side that had rarely played together before, it's completley different to results against full strenght, fully motivated, fully fit sides who are used to playing with each other. Seems to be like you're just looking to have a go at the EL any way you can.

Bald Student

03/02/2005, 5:45 PM

i think it was exeter drew with utd by yer logic this means exeter are as good as man utd !! any one see where im coming from at all

I do see where you're coming from, and I agree with you. Neither Exeter nor any eL clubs are as good as Manchester United. This is different from saying that Exeter or any eL club play a poor style of football with long balls and only one big man up front. You get teams playing passing football aswell as teams playing long balls in every standard of football competition from the European Cup to the UCD Superleague.

BohDiddley

03/02/2005, 7:46 PM

I do see where you're coming from, and I agree with you. Neither Exeter nor any eL clubs are as good as Manchester United. This is different from saying that Exeter or any eL club play a poor style of football with long balls and only one big man up front. You get teams playing passing football aswell as teams playing long balls in every standard of football competition from the European Cup to the UCD Superleague.
Sorry if this is wading in way off-topic (perish the thought), but watching Exeter almost turn over ManUre was the most exciting cross-channel football I've watched in quite a while.
It isn't all about watching silky skills, though I did enjoy the glorious nutmeg on whatshisname: their support was brilliant and if you had any heart you couldn't but will them to win. Apart from that, though, it was clear that the difference between the two was not as simple as poor teams hoof it high and squillionaire-owned play it pretty.

Éanna

03/02/2005, 9:04 PM

It seems my comment started it. Lets really stir it up as well. George O'Callaghan is not worth his place in the City staring 11. Nice footballer but no bottle. Goes missing when needed to pull his weight. I know Brian Clough said it's the bad players that are luxuries not the good ones - but the best combination is Roy Keane - no 40 yard passes but no question marks either. :ball:
nice try. so, you haven't been watching premier division football either :D

a small team getting a once of result in no way means there are better than the other team that have proven them self stime and time again against top europeen teams .
maybe not. but what else are they supposed to do? They don't play them in the league, they can only beat them when they play them!!!!! Going on your logic, the team who wins the world cup isn't the best team in the world, the team which wins the champions league isn't the best etc etc. You can only win the games you play- no more.

pete

03/02/2005, 9:16 PM

Football is a sport where you don't have to be the tallest or the strongest ior even the quickest. For the vest majority of games played every week its about application & desire.

The eL doesn't have the strength in depth but its top teams & players are a lot better than the knockers would think. Look at how many eL u-21 players play along side their UK based team-mates & often keep Premieship or 1st division first team regulars on the bench.

Uk teams regularily pay good money for u-21 players from countries similar to ireland but eL players somehow overlooked.

anto1208

04/02/2005, 10:18 AM

Going on your logic, the team who wins the world cup isn't the best team in the world, the team which wins the champions league isn't the best etc etc. You can only win the games you play- no more.[/QUOTE]

ok i see your point.

so by your lodgic greece are the best team in europe better than england france spain portugal .

im afraid i cant agree with you on that .

another example would be when france won the world cup but brazil still being ranked no .1

can you see what im saying now . i just want to raise the standard in the el rather than be happy with it at the moment im not trying to knock it .

wws

04/02/2005, 10:25 AM

Lim till i die

04/02/2005, 10:50 AM

Lads getting back on topic the 1st Division is populated almost entirely by hoofers. Just go to watch Kilkenny or Monaghan or Athlone.. Limerick after playin beautiful football en route to the play-offs the season before last went down the same route last season which leads me to my conclusion that the lack of quality football isnt down to any great lack of a philosophy by mangers or coaches its simply down to poor quality players :rolleyes: :eek: If you half a poor team it makes far more sense to play with a 6 foot four centre half and a six foot four centre forward and hoof the ball from one end to the other than to try and play "the beautiful game" with players who arent up to it

monutdfc

04/02/2005, 11:38 AM

Whenever we played football last season it was against the teams at the top of the table. When we beat Dundalk they came out with the old clichés about "not being allowed to play football" and "you have to kick your way out of this division", based on the assumption that they were Dundalk and had a divine right to play wonderful football (despite the players they had). The 3 best footballing sides were the 3 promoted sides.
On the other hand, people assume that the teams at the bottom play kick and rush and the teams at the top play stylish football. It is not always true. I'll bet that Dublin City will play more kick and rush than any team in the division next season.

anto1208

04/02/2005, 12:34 PM

Greece are better than England and Spain - two of europes poorest ever supposed big name teams - and France arent exactly pulling up trees at the moment in case you havent noticed

please in any football discussion NEVER bring up rankings - rankings w.ankings is wot I say - they are totally meaningless - a lot like the meaningless friendlies that they are based on

im going to stop now i think there is no point disscussing this any more if ye really think greece are better than england and spain , its obvious we have very different ideas of good football

the rankings was used to explain a point , and what just because you think they are meaningless no one else is aloud to talk about them ?!!!!!! :confused:

Slash/ED

04/02/2005, 12:52 PM

and what just because you think they are meaningless no one else is aloud to talk about them ?!!!!!! :confused:

I'd be happy with that, they're ****ing useless and prove absolutley nothing, a bit like a Pele top 100 footballers list.

anto1208

04/02/2005, 1:00 PM

they are just a bit of fun get over it , did nt think rankings would upset some one so much ;)

Éanna

04/02/2005, 3:33 PM

im going to stop now i think there is no point disscussing this any more if ye really think greece are better than england and spain , its obvious we have very different ideas of good football greece are european champions. spain haven't won that tournament for decades, and england have never won it. Greece got further than both of them. So how are they NOT better? Go off and watch sky sports and believe their hype, because you really don't seem to know what you're talking about, if your posts are serious

monutdfc

04/02/2005, 3:47 PM

Greece were so crap I couldn't watch their games and when I did I was willing the other side to win. They played rubbish football, if you could call it football. Worse than Ireland in Italia '90.
Sure they played to their strengths and couldn't have dreamt of winning the trophy if they came out and played against the Portugese or the Czechs, but it was still rubbish football. Their current position in the World Cup qualifiers is a better reflection of their ability as a team.

The eternal question: would you prefer your team won playing defensive football only looking to score off set-pieces, or came second playing entertaining football every week?
Given the amount of hours I spend watching football I would go for the second option every time.

Éanna

04/02/2005, 3:51 PM

Greece were so crap I couldn't watch their games and when I did I was willing the other side to win. They played rubbish football, if you could call it football.
it worked. therefore it wasn't rubbish! it might not have been attractive, or nice to watch, but it worked.

The eternal question: would you prefer your team won playing defensive football only looking to score off set-pieces, or came second playing entertaining football every week?
Given the amount of hours I spend watching football I would go for the second option every time.

My team? The first. Anything for success. Win first, play nice later. As for watching other teams, then the latter. If I'm gonna sit down and watch a game on the box, I want it to be a good game. but if I'm rooting for a team, I couldn't care less how bad they are once they win

anto1208

04/02/2005, 4:46 PM

greece are european champions. spain haven't won that tournament for decades, and england have never won it. Greece got further than both of them. So how are they NOT better? Go off and watch sky sports and believe their hype, because you really don't seem to know what you're talking about, if your posts are serious

they are better because they have better players greece had one lucky tournament they had never won a competitive euro game before that comp . they defended brilliantly and scored practically the same goal each time a set peice .

THANK YOU monutd i though i was going mad here

Éanna

04/02/2005, 4:48 PM

they are better because they have better players greece had one lucky tournament they had never won a competitive euro game before that comp . they defended brilliantly and scored practically the same goal each time a set peice .
you make no sense at all. "they are better because they have better players"? Having good players doesn't win you trophies. Having the best team does.

anto1208

04/02/2005, 4:53 PM

but that makes no sence rubbish team offten beat bigger teams it does nt make them better

by your logic bolton are as good as chelsea since they drew
exeter are as good as utd since they drew
burnley are better than liverpool

now i think chelsea utd and liverpool are better than the others guess i dont know any thing about football so !

Bald Student

04/02/2005, 5:30 PM

rubbish team offten beat bigger teams it does nt make them better I agree with most of what you're saying anto, one result in a knock out competition doesn't make a team good. But at the same time playing a defencive game doesn't make a team bad. These tactics worked for the Greeks and they deserved to win the games they did.

On a small point, you used the phrases 'bigger teams' and 'better teams' interchangeably. That puts out with me as a fan of a small team. Bigger teams are decided by finance and support. Better teams are decided on the pitch.

pete

04/02/2005, 7:29 PM

The eternal question: would you prefer your team won playing defensive football only looking to score off set-pieces, or came second playing entertaining football every week?
Given the amount of hours I spend watching football I would go for the second option every time.

I would say 95% of people who attend football games want to win first & style 2nd. Losing isn't fun when have opposition fans in your face.

When watching on tv can just change channel when your stylish team is losing.