Long ball or not? Quality of football

[monutdfc]

I really can't believe anybody would pick the second option
If it's a cup final or a league decider of course the result is all important. But week-in, week-out - no way. Think of Arsenal towards the end of the George Graham era, or (dare I say it) St Pats towards the end of Dolan's reign: both teams were winning trophies (or sort of in St Pats case), but they weren't winning any new fans with their style of football. I always followed Arsenal, but toward the end of the Graham era I couldn't be arsed watching them if they were on tv. Try watching a re-run of a full game of Ireland in Italia '90 - yeah, the results were brilliant, we all got excited, but the the football was terrible. Another example - Kildare County in their second season under Keely - doing very well in the league, getting good results, but a squad of very talented players under instruction to play hoof-it football. I remember reading the Kildare County forum at the time and there was a debate about style over results - no-one denied the style was tedious to watch.
The argument often used here by eL fans when confronting any barstoolers who dare denounce the eL, when they say "I wouldn't watch that, it's a load of rubbish" is to ask them if they've been to many games. Well if they end up watching the style of football some people seem to be advocating here (eg Greece), they would be perfectly correct if they said it was a load of rubbish to watch. Newcomers to eL games won't come back because the atmosphere was brilliant (for most games it's not, and if you're a newcomer you're not going to be as involved in the atmosphere anyway, and we don't have Sky to hype it up) but rather if the standard of football is higher than they expected or the game was enjoyable to watch.

[monutdfc]

Let's say you've never been to City before. They play 11 Carlton Palmers, it's absolute rubbish from beginning to end and they win one-nil from a deflected header from a corner that came from a hopeful punt up the pitch. I would doubt if you'd go back. Anto made the point earlier that crowds will not return to the eL if the football is not attractive and I believe he is correct.

The thread started with people arguing how the standard of football is high in the eL, yet people seem to be advocating sacrificing good football for results. If that happens then no-one can make the argument about the standard of football in the eL being high. I know that as someone said long-ball happens in every league in the world, but it's usually the weaker teams using it to bridge the gap to compete with the better sides (eg Bolton Wanderers, Wimbledon for years). (And by 'long-ball' I really mean unattractive football designed purley to achieve results, a la Greece.)

Who won the World Cup in 1982? Italy. Who does everybody remember from that tournament? Brazil, without a doubt. If they were league teams, which team would I prefer to watch every week? Brazil, undoubtedly, even if they did come second to a cynical yet efficient Italian side in this fantasy league. I have enjoyed games where we have lost narrowly or drawn but played well, and I have been bored rigid in games where we won 1-0. Don't get all self-righteous saying I am not a true fan for saying this.

(Anyway, you might get your wish - if another season of beautiful football brings no silverware to the Cross, Dolan will revert to the tactics of his Set-Piece Athletic days ;) )

[CollegeTillIDie]

But I'm talking about fans, not someone who might stroll down to a game every now and again.



You must be joking. I remember Italy, Dino Zoff, Marco Tardelli running at the camera. I remember Schumacher taking out Battiston and The Man They Call The Monster scoring a peno. I remember Maradona being sent off. I remember the Austria Germany controversy. And I remember Brazil as losers who certainly played pretty football but wouldn't run 5 yards to get a ball. You also seem to forget the reception they got back in brazil from their 'fans'.

I would prefer to watch Brazil over Italy every week too, but that's an incorrect analogy because I'm not a fan of either. On the other hand I follow Ireland, so I would watch Ireland every week before Brazil, even though you might well (correctly) feel our football inferior.

Success scores over style every time folks. Ask Tottenham or West Ham supporters if you don't believe me. Always played stylish football but in the case of West Ham mostly outside the elite Division in recent seasons.

Italy succeed because they realise one basic fact. DEFENDING is an integral part of the game of football. The only way to beat a team like Brazil is to be better defensively than they are , because 9 times out of 10 they will be better than you offensively.

[pete]

Pats are probably playing better football now (standard of eL has improved) since the title winning Gilzean/Braithwaite/Molloy days but I doubt you could find 1 fan who prefer current situation.

Give up the arguement not gonna find anyone to agree with you...

[anto1208]

i dont know ye all seem pretty happy going week in week out standing in the wind and rain watching poor quality football .

so from what ye are saying there is no need to improve the standard in the el
must be good news for the fai they dont have to invest money in the league since ye will allways keep forking over ye re cash to watch bad players playing badly

maybe im just different in wanting to go see quality football

[Slash/ED]

i dont know ye all seem pretty happy going week in week out standing in the wind and rain watching poor quality football .

so from what ye are saying there is no need to improve the standard in the el
must be good news for the fai they dont have to invest money in the league since ye will allways keep forking over ye re cash to watch bad players playing badly

maybe im just different in wanting to go see quality football

I want to see my team win and in Europe, that means I want to see the standard of play raised. That doesn't interfere with the fact that I couldn't care less if we play a so called poor route one style of play or a beautiful passing game so long as we get the results. Style of football does not = standard of football.

[Mr A]

I think almost every fan of a club would agree that they'd rather see their team win than play attractive football. But overall the league could do with a bigger emphasis on passing/attractive/attacking football. I love the league but I can't say that it's often good to watch if you're not involved in it.

eL matches on TV and live are often of a very poor quality and even Shels' best performances in Europe were often tempered by their inability to pass the ball and poor technical ability. I was at a Serie C cup match in Italy this summer and everything about the match, stadium and occasion were so many lightyears ahead of the eL it's unreal. As a neutral I was sucked into the game in Italy in exactly the way I suspect that neutral people usually aren't in Ireland. I've brought friends to both premier and first division matches and they've been totally unimpressed more often than not.

Whatever about European results, football in Ireland isn't that good to watch most of the time and that's the major problem. In this day and age people have plenty of options for entertainment and the sad fact is that the eL isn't competing successfully. Summer soccer, the ten team league etc.- they're just casting about for quick answers. We need to gradually improve the quality of football, stadiums and facilities in the league and then the crowds will come. The U21 league was a step in the right direction and UEFA licencing should help on the latter 2 fronts, but a change in philosophy from that of winning to that of improving players is what is in my view needed to help improve the eL and Irish football in general.

[CollegeTillIDie]

i dont know ye all seem pretty happy going week in week out standing in the wind and rain watching poor quality football .

so from what ye are saying there is no need to improve the standard in the el
must be good news for the fai they dont have to invest money in the league since ye will allways keep forking over ye re cash to watch bad players playing badly

maybe im just different in wanting to go see quality football

So Anto how often do you visit Spain to watch La Liga or Italy to watch Serie A ? :cool:

[Bald Student]

ye all seem pretty happy going week in week out standing in the wind and rain I can only speak for myself anto but yes I am very happy standing in the wind and rain to watch my football. I personally feel a bit stupid watching football on the telly, especially in a bar where everyone shouts at the ref and cheers the players. Neither the ref nor the players can hear us.

On a side issue, the stand in Belfield - like most grounds - has a roof, walls and seats so usually I'm sitting in neither wind nor rain to watch my football.

[anto1208]

So Anto how often do you visit Spain to watch La Liga or Italy to watch Serie A ? :cool:

never , but im not happy going week in week out watching the poor quality football ,

id happily stand in the cold and rain watching good football !!

[anto1208]

I think almost every fan of a club would agree that they'd rather see their team win than play attractive football. But overall the league could do with a bigger emphasis on passing/attractive/attacking football. I love the league but I can't say that it's often good to watch if you're not involved in it.

eL matches on TV and live are often of a very poor quality and even Shels' best performances in Europe were often tempered by their inability to pass the ball and poor technical ability. I was at a Serie C cup match in Italy this summer and everything about the match, stadium and occasion were so many lightyears ahead of the eL it's unreal. As a neutral I was sucked into the game in Italy in exactly the way I suspect that neutral people usually aren't in Ireland. I've brought friends to both premier and first division matches and they've been totally unimpressed more often than not.

Whatever about European results, football in Ireland isn't that good to watch most of the time and that's the major problem. In this day and age people have plenty of options for entertainment and the sad fact is that the eL isn't competing successfully. Summer soccer, the ten team league etc.- they're just casting about for quick answers. We need to gradually improve the quality of football, stadiums and facilities in the league and then the crowds will come. The U21 league was a step in the right direction and UEFA licencing should help on the latter 2 fronts, but a change in philosophy from that of winning to that of improving players is what is in my view needed to help improve the eL and Irish football in general.



yes thank god some one else can see what im saying well done man at least one or 2 have a well rounded view of football in this country , rather than sticking there heads in the sand thinking we have a league capible of challenging for any thing in europe

[anto1208]

[QUOTE=Conor74]Not sure what team you are referring to, but I prefer watching quality football on balmy summer evenings, hence I go to Cork City games.
QUOTE]


hahahahahahahahahahahaha you are joking , im not sure which is more ludicrus "quality football and cork city" or balmy summer evenings !! where do you live coz we did nt have any balmy summer evening this year

[sadloserkid]

rather than sticking there heads in the sand thinking we have a league capible of challenging for any thing in europe

Give me one example of where somebody says this?

[anto1208]

im not too sure what you are saying there of coarse if you take out all the good teams you will be left with rubbish . but still the facts are there, those milans and utds do contest every year in europe and if irish teams want to contest as well they must get as good ,which is what i want to see .
how is that a bad thing ?

i dont watch many championship games because they are rubbish the standard of football is rubbish as you say , i am also just as sick of watching el because the standard is worse than that of the championship ,

many fans feel the same way this is why attendences are dropping and you are more likely to see a utd or liverpool fan in ireland than a cork city fan

this i feel is a bad thing !!

you wont watch eng div 1 games because its rubbish but you will watch teams worse than them play worse . that makes no sence


we consently produce class footballers from this country but the only reason they get that good is because they are in england playing at a higher standard . now if the standard here was raised a lot more players could stay here and play in the el .which would allow us to be able to pick a national side with players from the el not just the odd token gesture to one or 2

i cant see how wanting to improve the league is such a bad thing to ye .

i dont think its good enough i dont think we should accept it just because they play rubbish football in the championship i really dont care what they play there

[anto1208]

Give me one example of where somebody says this?
this season we proved that our champions were better than iceland and croatia, and a decent match for a french and spanish team. We also proved that our 2nd best team was good enough to beat a team thats just won the swedish league, a mid-table dutch side, and gave a good account of themselves to a decent french team.


above find a example of some body claiming that our champions were a decent match for a french and spanish team , i presume the spanish team is deportivo who are in the champs league yet again ! shels are nt

[anto1208]

:D . I'd love to see City be as good as the Milans and Uniteds, but for the time being I'll remain in the real world.

The suggestion that people follow Liverpool or ManU becuase of quality of football is nonsense. Has the average 8 year old kid with a ManU top formed an opinion of the quality of football played at Turner's Cross and compared and contrasted that with the style used across the water? That's just hilarious. The average kid takes up following a foreign team because his friends follow them, or his family, or that was the schoolbag his parents bought him. Quality is an irrelevancy, do last years Arsenal fans start following Chelsea this year?

kids will follow the team thats winning the most thats why kids from the 80's are mainly liverpool fans from the 90's are mainly utd fans and by 2010 it will be chelsea .

so if they dont understand good football why are nt they up watching cork instead of watching utd ?

why you brought up kids i dont know i was talking about adults being utd or liverpool fans instead of cork or shels fans . if utd and cork are on at the same time who has more people from cork watching them ? utd of course

[anto1208]

which is completely different to



Do you not get it? Saying we can match a French or Spanish team in a given match is not the same as saying we can challenge for everything.

oh my god this is what ive been saying all the time .
i said that the league isnt at a high enough standard to match teams in europe and i was shot down by loads saying coz they got a result against depor that they were as good as them .then it went into people trying to tell me that greece are better than france england portugal etc

[anto1208]

premiership is just a more exiting league perfect example would be utd arsnil game just gone , it was a class game but the football was nt all that good . were as in real barca the football is really good but it would put you to sleep whatching it .

plus its the closest league to us the teams are reported on in the papers tv radio here a lot more than the spanish league so most people with any interest would know most teams most players in the prem which makes for a more enjoyable watching experience , you dont need hype

most people could name practically all the players in the prem off the tops of there head at least 5 from each team , i know i could nt get more than 20 from the spanish league and most of them would be real and barca

[anto1208]

No, we don't agree at all I'm afraid.

I think the league is at a high enough standard to enable us challenge teams. That is borne out by last season's results. Noone is arguing the point you say is being made ie. noone is suggesting that any Irish team could challenge for anything at any time. Just that on an match by match basis, an Irish team can contend with lots of opposition in Europe.

how is it high enough when our champs did nt get into the champs league .
challenging other rubbish teams is no good

ye are completely missing what im saying

[anto1208]

class game to watch because of the atmosphere the tension etc etc im sure i dont have to explain why it was good .

but the football was crap : the football was nt generally that good arsnil never took it down and attacked utd really it was a scrappy encounter so it was nt enjoyed for the silky skill s but more the occation

[anto1208]

ok the football played was a bad standard for those 2 teams it was still miles better than anything ever played in the el .that was just one game every other week utd and arsnil play with style and skill that would beat every team in ireland .


the atmosphere statement was about the atmosphere between the too teams ( players ) the hostility .since ive to spell every thing out to you

i said nothing about the crowd this was you reading what i write and and coming up with some thing completly different yet again ,

ill try to write as simply as i can

el is not at a high enough standard to allow our teams to compete in competitions in europe

if the standard was raised they could compete with the other teams that DO compete every year

you cant judge a team from a once off game eg if limerick beat real madrid in a once off this does nt mean limerick are better than them .

[anto1208]

:D :D

You're going way off the Richter Scale there anto. Wtf is the 'atmosphere between the teams'? When someone refers to atmosephere at a game in this part of the world, it means the crowd reaction. And even if I accept your attempt to rehash the English language, when did kicking lumps out of each other amount to a 'good atmosphere between the teams'. So you like football with lots of hostility and little skill? I can see why you wouldn't go to Cork City games now, not enough blood and guts for your taste maybe?

a poor attempt to wind me up .very poor .
atmosphere between the teams: hostility between the teams
i like football with lots of passion & lots of skill this cant be found in the el .

if you can name one team that could compete with the top clubs in europe ill give up and say you ve won

[Slash/ED]

Anto is either on a wind up or a fool who keeps changing his story about why he hates the EL.

"Sure the qualitys rubbish, and that's all that matters"
"sure quality doesn't matter, Real V Barca is rubbish, I want the passion of the premiership!"

I wouldn't waste your time with it if I was you, Conor

[mypost]

this season we proved that our champions were better than iceland and croatia, and a decent match for a french and spanish team. We also proved that our 2nd best team was good enough to beat a team thats just won the swedish league, a mid-table dutch side, and gave a good account of themselves to a decent french team.

Are they better? Shels scraped through on away goals against the champions of Iceland. The only reason that Shels and Cork won their European games, was because of summer football, and the fitness advantage it gave our clubs over their opponents, as shown by Shels' many late goals. You don't think our clubs would win their games, if the league started in September like other countries, do you? If you do, remember how Lille ran rings round Shels in Europe, except for the last 10 minutes in Lansdowne.

[anto1208]

Anto is either on a wind up or a fool who keeps changing his story about why he hates the EL.

"Sure the qualitys rubbish, and that's all that matters"
"sure quality doesn't matter, Real V Barca is rubbish, I want the passion of the premiership!"

I wouldn't waste your time with it if I was you, Conor

i dont hate the el i just think it would be better if the team were able to compete with teams all across europe , why is that so bad ?

when you use these "" it means you are quoting them if you are quoting some one you have to use sentances they actually said not pick and choose words to stick together .

all i said was i thought the arsnil utd game was exciting game to watch which it was and the last time i saw real and barca it was nt an exciting game to watch .

[Slash/ED]

Are they better? Shels scraped through on away goals against the champions of Iceland. The only reason that Shels and Cork won their European games, was because of summer football, and the fitness advantage it gave our clubs over their opponents, as shown by Shels' many late goals. You don't think our clubs would win their games, if the league started in September like other countries, do you? If you do, remember how Lille ran rings round Shels in Europe, except for the last 10 minutes in Lansdowne.

Every team Shels played had started their season by the time Shels played them.

[Éanna]

it was a class game but the football was nt all that good
you've just contradicted yourself AGAIN! :eek: How do you KNOW eircon League games are ALL boring? You don't. You're basing it on what YOU see only.

[Éanna]

Are they better? Shels scraped through on away goals against the champions of Iceland. The only reason that Shels and Cork won their European games, was because of summer football, and the fitness advantage it gave our clubs over their opponents, as shown by Shels' many late goals.
When we played Malmo they were in the middle of their season. I don't know about Iceland, but I would have thought they had summer football too. Fitness alone isn't enough.



You don't think our clubs would win their games, if the league started in September like other countries, do you? If you do, remember how Lille ran rings round Shels in Europe, except for the last 10 minutes in Lansdowne.
It depends who they're playing. Lille are a very good side.

[mypost]

When we played Malmo they were in the middle of their season. I don't know about Iceland, but I would have thought they had summer football too. Fitness alone isn't enough.

Lille are a very good side.

The only reason Cork beat Malmo was because Cork play Summer football too. If they were in pre-season against Malmo, Malmo would have won easily.

Coruna's league season started after they played Shels. Yes, Lille are a very good side. However, they're not Barcelona or AC Milan. Shels should have given it a good go at home, instead they made Lille look better than they are, as most Irish clubs do when they lose in Europe.

[anto1208]

The only reason Cork beat Malmo was because Cork play Summer football too. If they were in pre-season against Malmo, Malmo would have won easily.

Coruna's league season started after they played Shels. Yes, Lille are a very good side. However, they're not Barcelona or AC Milan. Shels should have given it a good go at home, instead they made Lille look better than they are, as most Irish clubs do when they lose in Europe.

a sensible person on here at long last !!!

mate they just cant see that el teams are nt good enough to compete in the champs league ,so i dont think there is much point going on about this ,its ok when people dissagree with your posts but not when they start attacking you personally becuase you dont think the el is a good league you gotta know you ll never win !! ;)

[Éanna]

The only reason Cork beat Malmo was because Cork play Summer football too. If they were in pre-season against Malmo, Malmo would have won easily.
thats an utterly ridiculous comment. Malmo were in the middle of their season, we were in the middle of ours- the playing field was level, and we beat them fair and square! If we had been in pre-season when we played them, WE would have been at a major disadvantage

The only reason that Shels and Cork won their European games, was because of summer football, and the fitness advantage it gave our clubs over their opponents
So, if we had been pre-season and malmo had won, would you be saying that it was ONLY because they had a fitness advantage. What exactly is your point?! :confused: