No Club got a licence

[gspain]

No Club earns Licence

The initial stage of the 2005 UEFA Club Licensing schem has concluded with none of the 22 eircom League clubs receiving a licence. The Club Licensing Committee, made up of independent experts in the fields of finance, safety, legal, sporting administration and infrastrucutre, evaluated the date submitted by the clubs in the five categories at their day-long meeting on Friday.

While a number of clubs came extremely close, no club reached the required standards in all five disciplines to achieve a licence. The clubs have had a number of months to submit their applications together with all the relevant data and have been supported by the FAI's Club Licensing department in assisting with their submissions. However, in some cases the required information was not submitted by clubs, and in other cases, not provided in time for assessment.

Clubs now ahve the right to appeal the decisions to the Club Licensing Appeals Committee, made up of a separate panel of independent experts, and have five working days to lodge their appeals.

Commenting on the overall picture, FAI Chief Executive John Delaney said: "This represents a real disappointment at this stage of the process. However, there is still time to attain the required licences so we must wee what the appeal part of the process holds." The FAI is urging clubs to re-examine their submissions in tandem with the feedback from the Club Licensing Department.

Mr Delaney also said he believed it would prove impossible for eircom League clubs to receive any further Government funding without a licence granted under the UEFA scheme. "Given the willingness of the Department of Sport to support the club's efforts under the Club Licensing scheme to date, it would be a huge setback if this much needed revenue was not available going forward," he said.

While it is acknowledged that clubs have made real progress in the last year, no club made the standard for 2005.

[gspain]

The above is from www.fai.ie

Not looking good.

[Troy.McClure]

I think that its better that no club got a licence then just saying 'ah well, you gave it a shot, here you go'. Its one of the few times that I can remember the FAI actually imposing high standards to all. Im sure most clubs will get it on appeal (and anyway most clubs had to appeal last year anyway).

Not sure about this though: "Mr Delaney also said he believed it would prove impossible for eircom League clubs to receive any further Government funding without a licence granted under the UEFA scheme. "Given the willingness of the Department of Sport to support the club's efforts under the Club Licensing scheme to date, it would be a huge setback if this much needed revenue was not available going forward," he said."

Has any club actually got cash in the bank from Bertie and the lads since the licencing system came into place? I know that we were promised money but not so sure that it actually arrived.

[eoinh]

last season no club from Kazakhstan met the licence requirements. Result - UEFA did not let any of their clubs take part in european competition.

[Dricky]

Has any club actually got cash in the bank from Bertie and the lads since the licencing system came into place? I know that we were promised money but not so sure that it actually arrived.

yeah The GAA and thats about it

[pineapple stu]

Not sure about this though: "Mr Delaney also said he believed it would prove impossible for eircom League clubs to receive any further Government funding without a licence granted under the UEFA scheme. "Given the willingness of the Department of Sport to support the club's efforts under the Club Licensing scheme to date, it would be a huge setback if this much needed revenue was not available going forward," he said."
I saw that alright. Basically, no club got the licence requirements, so we won't be giving you any money to meet the licence requirements. If the Department of Sport have been giving grants, then they've been very quiet about it altogether.

This is the biggest problem with licencing. Great idea and all, but no-one seems willing to put their money where their mouths are. UCD need E1.9m to upgrade Belfield Park to requirements; our turnover according to that article in the Star shortly after Christmas was E400k. I don't imagine we're unique either. Clubs simply can't afford to upgrade to all requirements without financial aid, which the FAI is now saying may well be stopped?! Disgraceful.

[gspain]

Our European reps won't be allowed play in Europe unless they get premier division licences on appeal. Presumably Shels, Bohs, Cork and Longford can't be too far away as they were all in Europe so had premier licences last season.

It is difficult to imagine 22 clubs getting licences on appeal so there may be casualties.

[pineapple stu]

Isn't there a European licence over and above a Premier Licence? Even more work to be done if so.

[Ronnie]

I saw that alright. Basically, no club got the licence requirements, so we won't be giving you any money to meet the licence requirements. If the Department of Sport have been giving grants, then they've been very quiet about it altogether.

This is the biggest problem with licencing. Great idea and all, but no-one seems willing to put their money where their mouths are. UCD need E1.9m to upgrade Belfield Park to requirements; our turnover according to that article in the Star shortly after Christmas was E400k. I don't imagine we're unique either. Clubs simply can't afford to upgrade to all requirements without financial aid, which the FAI is now saying may well be stopped?! Disgraceful.


I think your wrong on that one. The grant money is for infrastructure, but the criteria for infrastructure are not as stringent as last year and plans I believe are acceptable - like there is no point in Harps or Drogheda putting in 1500 seats if their moving. Its the other areas the Gov want clubs to sort out before they will give the money for the infrastructure - sporting, legal, fiancial and admin.

[harpskid]

I think your wrong on that one. The grant money is for infrastructure, but the criteria for infrastructure are not as stringent as last year and plans I believe are acceptable - like there is no point in Harps or Drogheda putting in 1500 seats if their moving. Its the other areas the Gov want clubs to sort out before they will give the money for the infrastructure - sporting, legal, fiancial and admin.

We passed on infrastructure so plans must be acceptable.

[pineapple stu]

I think your wrong on that one. The grant money is for infrastructure, but the criteria for infrastructure are not as stringent as last year and plans I believe are acceptable - like there is no point in Harps or Drogheda putting in 1500 seats if their moving.
Apologies - that's what I meant. The ground is the one which will cost the most money (E1.9m in our case), which is why grants are needed. I think concrete plans to move to a new ground are acceptable substitutes for the ground requirements, but again, you need money. Which isn't coming.

But yeah, there seem to be a fair few clubs who have failed items other than the ground. Bar finances (which are being dealt with by most clubs, and again that should be taken as good enough for the licence), that's inexcusable, really.

[Macy]

Isn't there a European licence over and above a Premier Licence? Even more work to be done if so.
Think the difference was infrastructure only. Say UCD qualify for europe, and have a premier licence, they can switch to Tolka/Dalyer for the match.

[A face]

I think that its better that no club got a licence then just saying 'ah well, you gave it a shot, here you go'. Its one of the few times that I can remember the FAI actually imposing high standards to all. Im sure most clubs will get it on appeal (and anyway most clubs had to appeal last year anyway).


To be honest ... i think this is a valid point ... Damn if they do, and damned if they dont. The licensing is inplace to improve the league, its is trying to do that and we give out. Whats up with that ??

[pineapple stu]

Think the difference was infrastructure only. Say UCD qualify for europe, and have a premier licence, they can switch to Tolka/Dalyer for the match.

That's assuming that the only differences between the European licence and the Premier licence is the ground requirements then? That should be alright, I suppose.

On the Galway forum, they're saying that Galway failed the legal aspect because their holding company's Memo and Arts (company's constitution, basically) weren't up-to-date. There's a mention of Sligo failing for completing their form in red biro! Does anyone know for sure if there was a notice sent to clubs of what was wrong before the announcement went out? If there wasn't, then a lot of this bad press could have been avoided, it seems. If there was, then the clubs have only themselves to blame.

[patsh]

On the Galway forum, they're saying that Galway failed the legal aspect because their holding company's Memo and Arts (company's constitution, basically) weren't up-to-date. There's a mention of Sligo failing for completing their form in red biro! Does anyone know for sure if there was a notice sent to clubs of what was wrong before the announcement went out? If there wasn't, then a lot of this bad press could have been avoided, it seems. If there was, then the clubs have only themselves to blame.
And City are saying it's becuse of copies of documents not originals. IF these things are true, why couldn't Delaney give the clubs a week more to sort out this kind of stuff, instead of the PR disaster of today?
That f*cker is delighted to be able to announce bad news about the league, he can continue on destroying it now.

[pineapple stu]

I suppose in a way, the small things are examples of the lax way the clubs are being run and have been run for years. This is the FAI's way of giving them a root up the hole and making sure they get these things right in future. Harsh, but arguably fair.

[SeanDrog]

this is what is confusing me.

If City and others had small errors like this then surely a little phone call telling them about it and giving them a day or two to get the matter sorted is the way to go rather than just failing the licence application.

Sure even the great Derry City didn't get a licence. It just looks a little bit funny that no club got a licence and I don't buy it that all 22 clubs didn''t put in the effort - the system is clearly flawed in some way that a situ like this can arise.

[dcfcsteve]

I think that its better that no club got a licence then just saying 'ah well, you gave it a shot, here you go'. Its one of the few times that I can remember the FAI actually imposing high standards to all. Im sure most clubs will get it on appeal (and anyway most clubs had to appeal last year anyway).

Not sure about this though: "Mr Delaney also said he believed it would prove impossible for eircom League clubs to receive any further Government funding without a licence granted under the UEFA scheme. "Given the willingness of the Department of Sport to support the club's efforts under the Club Licensing scheme to date, it would be a huge setback if this much needed revenue was not available going forward," he said."

Has any club actually got cash in the bank from Bertie and the lads since the licencing system came into place? I know that we were promised money but not so sure that it actually arrived.

As far as I'm aware, the only openly stated block to government funds coming into Irish football has been in response to the FAI's own internal shenanigans. That situation has only been partially resolved to-date - until the newly advertised posts are filled satisfactorily, the government is witholding money from the FAI.

The irony of Delaney then saying the clubs themselves are jeopardising government funding. That man...

[Ronnie]

That's assuming that the only differences between the European licence and the Premier licence is the ground requirements then? That should be alright, I suppose.

On the Galway forum, they're saying that Galway failed the legal aspect because their holding company's Memo and Arts (company's constitution, basically) weren't up-to-date. There's a mention of Sligo failing for completing their form in red biro! Does anyone know for sure if there was a notice sent to clubs of what was wrong before the announcement went out? If there wasn't, then a lot of this bad press could have been avoided, it seems. If there was, then the clubs have only themselves to blame.

I heard not. Last year clubs got info on what was missing before the first hearing, I heard that didn't happen this time around. Although Sligo failing for red biro seems bizarre! Only club in the coun try with everything upto scratch but excluded for using the wrong colour pen.....Ah now!

[Longfordian]

Most clubs failed on the legal section seemingly..The person assessing that section never reported back before Friday to allow the Licensing manager to get back on to clubs and sort it out, most of it is minor stuff sending in new copies of everything

[pete]

And City are saying it's becuse of copies of documents not originals. IF these things are true, why couldn't Delaney give the clubs a week more to sort out this kind of stuff, instead of the PR disaster of today?
That f*cker is delighted to be able to announce bad news about the league, he can continue on destroying it now.

I agree completely! This is as you say a PR disaster. If clubs are failing cos of some incorrectly formatted docs thats ludicrous. The process should have had a step which would have provided feedback to clubs (not announced to media), let clubs tidy up their application & then announce results at deadline.

The licencing is not about rejecting clubs for the sake of it! The goal of licencing is to get all clubs to pass (they have to improve their setup to do so) without moving the goal posts.

I think the clubs make too many excuses but by announcing the results as they have the FAI have undone a lot of good in recent years!

:(

[OneRedArmy]

Sligo failing for red biro seems bizarre! Only club in the coun try with everything upto scratch but excluded for using the wrong colour pen.....Ah now!

Who writes an application form in red pen? Come to think of it, almost every official form you see states blue or black ink.

What if they filled it in in crayon, would that be okay too?

Failing on such a trivial thing isn't something to be proud of, its plain embarrassing!!!!!

ONly caveat to this is if the form didn't state that it had to be in a particular colour. Then fill it in with the red pen, crayon, blood etc....

[joey B]

Apparently Harps passed the infastructure requirement :eek:

[pineapple stu]

Although Sligo failing for red biro seems bizarre! Only club in the coun try with everything up to scratch but excluded for using the wrong colour pen.....Ah now!
In fairness, forms are never filled out in red and Sligo should have known this. Did you ever try to photocopy anything in red ink? It hardly comes out, and it can't be faxed. But these are the kind of things which I think should have been dealt with at an interim stage before the announcement was made public.

[Schumi]

The only differences between Europe and premier division licences are in the infrastructure section so there shouldn't necessarily be any major problem in clubs gaining the Europe licence after getting the Premier Divison one.

[Neish]

I say most clubs failed on erors such a mistakes on the forms they submitted, things which can easily be ratified. That seems to be what the main problems with Harps bid were.

We got the one area most Harps fans we weary about the infastructure.

I imagine most clubs are in the same boat and the vast majority will get theirs after apeal. Touch wood

[pete]

The closest example i can come up with is probably something like planning permission - i think if you apply & some small anomaly then the planning office would contact you in advance to make the necessary changes?

If you've even applied for something that needed to fill in a form you be contacted if forget something or similar.

[exile]

taken from breakingnews.ie



Eircom League in disarray in licences debacle


The eircom League season was thrown into disarray today when it emerged that none of the 22 League clubs had received either an ‘A’ or ‘B’ licence for the coming season.

The news is a big blow for the League as, in the last year, seven clubs claimed ‘A’ Licences and the remaining 15 claimed ‘B’ Licences but the new regulations seems to have caught out all 22 clubs.

Every club has a right to appeal with February 9 pencilled in as the day when the final decision is made though FAI interim chief executive John Delaney admitted: “This represents a real disappointment at this stage of the process.”

FAI club licensing manager Bob Breen insisted that his department would work with clubs to help them “get across the line” and claimed that many clubs only failed to get licences because of administrative errors.

“I think that a lot of the problems can be fixed quickly and clubs will get licences on appeal,” he said.

The eircom League has already postponed its AGM until after the appeals process is complete, though the FAI has insisted it cannot impose a structure on the eircom League should clubs fail to get required licences.

Delaney said: “At this stage, the eircom League structure is not under our jurisdiction but Government grants are. I believe that clubs who do get licences should not be allowed to draw down Government grants.”

[patsh]

From Legal Criteria section 8.3
Item LG 1.04
************************************************** *****
The Licence Applicant must provide the Licensor with a copy of its legally valid statutes.
The following documents must be submitted:
Alternative 1: If the Licence Applicant is an incorporated company:

a copy of the current Memorandum and Articles of the Company;
an original or Companies' Office duplicate of the Certificate of Incorporation. or
Alternative 2: If the Licence Applicant is a cooperative society:

a copy of the Model Rules of the Society;
an original or ICOS (Irish Cooperative Organisation Society) duplicate of the Certificate of Incorporation. or
Alternative 3: If the Licence Applicant is an unincorporated entity:

a copy of the current rules or constitution of the entity;
a copy of Deeds of Trust if relevant.
************************************************** **

Just as an example, it could be quite easy to interpret that a photocopy of a document would suffice for some of the documents arequired above. (I'm not claiming that this was the problem for Cork City)

[Schumi]

Most clubs failed on the legal section seemingly..The person assessing that section never reported back before Friday to allow the Licensing manager to get back on to clubs and sort it out, most of it is minor stuff sending in new copies of everything
This would indicate that the FAI did get back onto clubs to sort out minor details but the legal guy fúcked up. Maybe lots of the clubs will get passed after that stuff gets sorted out?

[patsh]

FAI club licensing manager Bob Breen insisted that his department would work with clubs to help them “get across the line” and claimed that many clubs only failed to get licences because of administrative errors.

“I think that a lot of the problems can be fixed quickly and clubs will get licences on appeal,” he said.
If thats the case, why couldn't they have sorted out the problems BEFORE this disaster?
This is proof of Delaney's ill will towards the league....:mad:

[Passive]

Can't see how we're going to get a licence, even on appeal. If the licencing system is to have any credibility we should be thrown out of the league. That said, should the licencing system have any credibility given the FAI and government's point blank refusal to do anything to help the EL. I'm not talking about bail-outs, I'm talking about long-term strategic planning. I know people who have long since stopped following League of Ireland simply because of the lack of any sort planning. Where is this league going? What do we want from it? How can we achieve it? Until these questions are asked - and answered - the league will continue to be a joke.
As for not releasing the news to the media, why not release it? As far as I'm concerned, this shows the FAI in a worse light than the clubs. Today's news is proof that Irish clubs are unable to drag themselves into the 21st century. For certain, a large degree of blame must rest on the clubs themselves, but that is a damning indictment of the national football association and it's carefree attitude to the development of the game in this country.
In any other country the national association would be forced to resign en masse if not one club even attained a B licence. That won't happen in Ireland though, because the domestic league is seen as the mad cousin of the national association - a hopeless baggage that Merrion Square is forced to lug around like a boulder around their necks. Ah, poor FAI, stupid Irish clubs have made a mess of it again.

[SeanDrog]

very well put Passive

[harpskid]

I say most clubs failed on erors such a mistakes on the forms they submitted, things which can easily be ratified. That seems to be what the main problems with Harps bid were.

We got the one area most Harps fans we weary about the infastructure.

I imagine most clubs are in the same boat and the vast majority will get theirs after apeal. Touch wood

We failed on 3 of the 5 criteria for petty things like certificates etc. WE passed on sporting and infrastracture :rolleyes:

We should get one from the appeal though!

[Mr_T]

Most clubs will be ok in their appeals. Harps were VERY close to getting everything, and are very confident of no trouble in the appeal.

Calm down folks, this was the First Instance Committes outcome, and titled as such from the start. It was always likley that most clubs would have to appeal and tie up loose ends. Yeah, maybe small difficulties coulda been sorted at some kind of workshop, but at least they are sticking rigidly to the process they set out. Hopefully they can improve the process every year, but the media are always gonna go jumping up and down on a percieved negative without putting it in context. This is a new process, the level of detail clubs needed to submit was huge, and varied from last years requirements, most clubs failed on minor details and will know better next year. If the FAI lead them all by the hand they'd be getting slated too.

The vast majority of clubs, including ourselves will get their license on appeal. However the fun will really begin if one or two, as media reports suggest can't get their financial secion sorted, particualrly those who have no tax clearance cert, as they will not get that sorted overnight.

If we are left with 1 or 2 or 3 premier clubs who fail on finance then the eL will have to make a tough call. I'd guess this is why Delaney is referring to the grants issue. Clubs who fail on finance may be given a period to sort themselves out with the tax man etc. and sanctioned in some other way, perhaps with the imposition of financial restrictions or a freeze on grants.

TG

[OneRedArmy]

Can't see how we're going to get a licence, even on appeal. If the licencing system is to have any credibility we should be thrown out of the league. That said, should the licencing system have any credibility given the FAI and government's point blank refusal to do anything to help the EL. I'm not talking about bail-outs, I'm talking about long-term strategic planning. I know people who have long since stopped following League of Ireland simply because of the lack of any sort planning. Where is this league going? What do we want from it? How can we achieve it? Until these questions are asked - and answered - the league will continue to be a joke.
As for not releasing the news to the media, why not release it? As far as I'm concerned, this shows the FAI in a worse light than the clubs. Today's news is proof that Irish clubs are unable to drag themselves into the 21st century. For certain, a large degree of blame must rest on the clubs themselves, but that is a damning indictment of the national football association and it's carefree attitude to the development of the game in this country.
In any other country the national association would be forced to resign en masse if not one club even attained a B licence. That won't happen in Ireland though, because the domestic league is seen as the mad cousin of the national association - a hopeless baggage that Merrion Square is forced to lug around like a boulder around their necks. Ah, poor FAI, stupid Irish clubs have made a mess of it again.

Agree Passive. The fact that Delaney and the FAI were, for the second year running, so out of touch with this that the failure to give out one license disappointed them (which therefore means it must have been a surprise to them) should be a huge embarrassment and reflects fairly and squarely on their competence as a national association.

[wws]

and sanctioned in some other way, perhaps with the imposition of financial restrictions or a freeze on grants.

TG


.....bizarre thing to say - clubs already have their grant money frozen. Its a fact of life

[exile]

says in the evening hearld tonight that clubs who don't make the set requirements will either get a heavy fine or goverment funding cut off because they are reluctant to kick any club out of the league

is that enough punishment????

[Mr_T]

.....bizarre thing to say - clubs already have their grant money frozen. Its a fact of life

I'm talking about Sports Council funding for capital projects. Clubs who have propsals to improve facilities apply for these via the FAI, as we will be doing for our stadium relocation. However if we did not pass the legal, financial and administrative parts of the license first we'd be told to get stuffed.


says in the evening hearld tonight that clubs who don't make the set requirements will either get a heavy fine or goverment funding cut off because they are reluctant to kick any club out of the league

is that enough punishment????

Thats the tough call I was referring to. Punish financially or relegate and risk killing off a club altogether as well as making a mess of the Premier Division which could end an enforced structure change.

[eirebhoy]

According to 98fm's Johnny Lyons 98fm we failed on a tax cert but he said the club have it now and will send it in with the appeal.

[dcfcsteve]

The closest example i can come up with is probably something like planning permission - i think if you apply & some small anomaly then the planning office would contact you in advance to make the necessary changes?

If you've even applied for something that needed to fill in a form you be contacted if forget something or similar.

Having recently had a Building Control application rejected on just such a technicality, I can assure you the opposite is in fact the case. It's not their job to hold my hand.

Likewise, it's not the role of the FAI to chase-up and request AGAIN what they should've been provided with in the first place. There's 22 clubs, for fecks sake ! Think seriously about how long it would take to call round each club asking them to do what they should've done in the first place, given the time of calls, amount of toing and froing, waiting for clubs to eventually send the stuff in, going back to the thicky ones who STILL haven't got it right etc etc.

How will our clubs ever learn if such shoddyness, half-arsed reading of the rules etc is ignored or tolerated and their mammy in the FAI holds their hand through it all....?

It's time for the Eircom League to grow up....

[dcfcsteve]

From Legal Criteria section 8.3
Item LG 1.04
************************************************** *****
The Licence Applicant must provide the Licensor with a copy of its legally valid statutes.
The following documents must be submitted:
Alternative 1: If the Licence Applicant is an incorporated company:

a copy of the current Memorandum and Articles of the Company;
an original or Companies' Office duplicate of the Certificate of Incorporation. or
Alternative 2: If the Licence Applicant is a cooperative society:

a copy of the Model Rules of the Society;
an original or ICOS (Irish Cooperative Organisation Society) duplicate of the Certificate of Incorporation. or
Alternative 3: If the Licence Applicant is an unincorporated entity:

a copy of the current rules or constitution of the entity;
a copy of Deeds of Trust if relevant.
************************************************** **

Just as an example, it could be quite easy to interpret that a photocopy of a document would suffice for some of the documents arequired above. (I'm not claiming that this was the problem for Cork City)



Read your own post again Patsh.

They're not saying any 'aul duplicate of the forms is acceptable - rather that it must be an OFFICIAL duplicate from the ISSUING BODY. If you lose a certificate of Incorporation for a Limited Company, no-one is gonna accept a photocopy that you did along with your word as proof that it's kosher.

Companies House will do you a replacement for a fee, though it may well be labelled as a replacement certificate.

[Comic Book Guy]

what each club failed on, some are on here saying we failed on this or the other but is there anywhere that shows what each club failed on?

[Longfordian]

No because it's supposed to be a confidential process, if clubs choose to release the info that's up to them

[exile]

maguire just said on newstalk106 that they failed on infrastructure suprise suprise :D both him and derry chairman are on newstalk106 at the moment

[Buller]

"derry chairman are on newstalk106 at the moment"
Well, wat did he say?!

[Éanna]

two points on this:
1. I don't trust, respect or believe anything the FAI does. I have no confidence in them doing this properly or fairly, and its no surprise that its not been done properly considering theur track record in..............well everything really.
2. The clubs have to take reponsibility for their own actions. they know the FAI are useless, so they should have got things right and not given the FAI anything to complain about.

[MariborKev]

two points on this:
1. I don't trust, respect or believe anything the FAI does. I have no confidence in them doing this properly or fairly, and its no surprise that its not been done properly considering theur track record in..............well everything really.
2. The clubs have to take reponsibility for their own actions. they know the FAI are useless, so they should have got things right and not given the FAI anything to complain about.


Eanna

To be honest that is the easy way out of this situation. The Licence Committee is made up of a load of independent individuals who are appointed by the FAI. They decided the clubs weren't up to it. Its not been done properly? What about last year? I don't recall the same weeping and gnashing of teeth over the same situation this time last year when most of the clubs didn't have their house in order.

The clubs certainly have to take responsibility, they voted for the manual this year and last

[Éanna]

I do agree. I was just making the point that while the FAI may be (i.e. ARE) a shower of useless *****s, the clubs HAVE to take responsibility. The league is a joke, its run by the clubs. The way some clubs are run is pathetic- however much of this is the FAI flexing its muscles (and i think that is the case) the clubs still have to bear the ultimate responsibility. For too long the more progressive clubs have complained of the FAI and the other clubs holding them back, yet whenthey had a chance to go to the top of the class, they blew it- its egg on face time all around really

[BohsFans]

This is all bizzare!

Who is going down to Dalyer on Wed for the game to put pressure on Bertie to give us the ****in grant money we are owed :mad: