Real's past

[Éanna]

Out with it!!! Have your say!!! :)

[Aldini98]

Would have started this thread.....No intention to hyjack/spam the other one re.La Liga...........apologies to their naive fans.....but their fascist :mad: heritage of the past/present cannot be glibly ignored,despite the rush to globally dominate through their playing squad & sales of associated merchandise!

Doubtless,others will expand.....surprised by @ least 2 of their 'apologists' on here...... :o

Real or Royal were Francos club. They won countless leagues in the old days BECAUSE they were Francos club. Clubs like Barcelona would never get a result outside of the Camp Nou.
In regards to Santigo Bernabeau, he was a general or something in the Spanish Civil War and murdered helpless Catalans.

And you wonder why the Catalans hate Real Madrid??? :(

[lopez]

This is the sort of stereotyping that has all Celtic fans as shinners or Rangers fans as racists. What about Real taking the crown off its badge during the 2nd Republic. What about the B*stardolona's fascist salutes, the falangists that ran the club during the Franco years, the 'dodgy' deal that got them the Nou Camp in the first place, the Boixos Nois whose only difference with the Ultras Sur is that they hate everyone except Catalans (bar those non-white Catalans of course) instead of everyone that isn't Spanish. Meanwhile the ONLY two Real Madrid supporters (actually from Madrid) I met in Uni were a Swampy/Harry Enfield's Kevin lookalike, who didn't see the irony when I said 'you must be a fascist supporting Real' and another who had a go at a Aussie Ukrainian lecturer for not condemning his father's Nazi past enough. Some fascists. :rolleyes:

[Aldini98]

This is the sort of stereotyping that has all Celtic fans as shinners or Rangers fans as racists. What about Real taking the crown off its badge during the 2nd Republic. What about the B*stardolona's fascist salutes, the falangists that ran the club during the Franco years, the 'dodgy' deal that got them the Nou Camp in the first place, the Boixos Nois whose only difference with the Ultras Sur is that they hate everyone except Catalans (bar those non-white Catalans of course) instead of everyone that isn't Spanish. Meanwhile the ONLY two Real Madrid supporters (actually from Madrid) I met in Uni were a Swampy/Harry Enfield's Kevin lookalike, who didn't see the irony when I said 'you must be a fascist supporting Real' and another who had a go at a Aussie Ukrainian lecturer for not condemning his father's Nazi past enough. Some fascists. :rolleyes:

Franco was a Facist, Real are Francos club, do the Math :)

[drinkfeckarse]

I think Real will always struggle to lose the Government/Army team tag. It didn't help matters a few years ago when Real, over £100m in debt, sold their training complex to the Government who promptly leased it back to them on some ridiculously low rent.

[Gary]

Franco was a Facist, Real are Francos club, do the Math :)

That is a silly post.

Tony Blair is a Man Utd fan. Does that make Man U a socialist club?

Now everyone knows there are facist undertones in Reals past, but assertions like the above do nothing to prove any argument.

[SÓC]

That is a silly post.

Tony Blair is a Man Utd fan. Does that make Man U a socialist club?


Might do if Tony Blair controlled the club in a socialist way, influenced transfer dealings, bailed Man U out a few times and any many of their fans to this day carried out 'socialist' straight hand hello's

Oh yea and Blair would have to be a socialist too:D

[Aldini98]

Might do if Tony Blair controlled the club in a socialist way, influenced transfer dealings, bailed Man U out a few times and any many of their fans to this day carried out 'socialist' straight hand hello's

Oh yea and Blair would have to be a socialist too:D

Thank You Sóc

[Gary]

Labour still have notions of being a socialist party, working for the proletariat. We all know thats tripe, but thats what they say they stand for.

As for the argumrnt at hand, Reals history is very transparent, no-one, even themselves will deny that Franco had alot to do with their success decades ago.

but their is a difference between actually spouting cliched hearsay - "Real are fascists" and backing up a point, actually having knowledge of what you are speaking about.

[Dublin12]

Anyone ever hear of their hooligan group Ultra Surs,well,these scum have links to Hammerskin,the white supremist movement.Recently Figo and Raul were photographed smiling while holding a scarf and flag from this group.Also Raul accepted a plaque as an accolade from this group.This group receives free tickets for games and once,until recently had it's own offices at the Bernabeu handing out leaflets and flags bearing Franco's shield and other nazi symbols.Plus Former club president,Ramon Mendoza once famously said if he was 20 again he would be an Ultra Sur.And people wonder where all the monkey chants come from :mad:

[lopez]

Maybe,but not what the locals,well OK 2 Eng.fellows(Who've lived in Madrid,5 yrs.min.)say.... Still known locally as 'Franco's team'....So who are the Socialist club? Pathetico? The club with a fascist in charge POST FAT FRANK and a large following to boot. Rayo? With a miserly following in a city of 3M which was the last to fall to Franco, and voted in numerous socialist mayors up until a few years ago.

Anyone ever hear of their hooligan group Ultra Surs,well,these scum have links to Hammerskin,the white supremist movement.Recently Figo and Raul were photographed smiling while holding a scarf and flag from this group.Also Raul accepted a plaque as an accolade from this group.
So well informed. You must have read Antonio Salas Diario de un Skin? Or more like yet another gulible reader of Britain's neo-colonial press in Ireland. :rolleyes: Recently? About three years ago, in fact, not that the 'Irish' :D :rolleyes: Mirror bothered to print that until those loveable rogues got the monkey chants. Links to Hammerskin? So do Boixos Nois. Monkey chants? Didn't they appear at the Nou Camp against Roberto Carlos the week-end after the tans game? What's your point. Barcelona are a fascist club too? Didn't think so. As for Ramon Mendoza, wasn't he supposed to be a member of the KGB?

Franco was a Facist, Real are Francos club, do the MathAre we seriously expected to take any sort of lecture on fascism from somone who uses the word 'Yidos' on this site? P*ss off! :mad:

[Aldini98]

So who are the Socialist club? Pathetico? The club with a fascist in charge POST FAT FRANK and a large following to boot. Rayo? With a miserly following in a city of 3M which was the last to fall to Franco, and voted in numerous socialist mayors up until a few years ago.

So well informed. You must have read Antonio Salas Diario de un Skin? Or more like yet another gulible reader of Britain's neo-colonial press in Ireland. :rolleyes: Recently? About three years ago, in fact, not that the 'Irish' :D :rolleyes: Mirror bothered to print that until those loveable rogues got the monkey chants. Links to Hammerskin? So do Boixos Nois. Monkey chants? Didn't they appear at the Nou Camp against Roberto Carlos the week-end after the tans game? What's your point. Barcelona are a fascist club too? Didn't think so. As for Ramon Mendoza, wasn't he supposed to be a member of the KGB?
Are we seriously expected to take any sort of lecture on fascism from somone who uses the word 'Yidos' on this site? P*ss off! :mad:

Check out http://www.abc.net.au/sport/content/200411/s1251921.htm

As for the Yidos quote, Spurs fans call themselves Yidos so I really don't know what you are on about. Anyway you seem a tad annoyed, Going Mad, Going Mad !!!! :)

[lopez]

Check out http://www.abc.net.au/sport/content/200411/s1251921.htm

As for the Yidos quote, Spurs fans call themselves Yidos so I really don't know what you are on about. Anyway you seem a tad annoyed, Going Mad, Going Mad !!!! :)Of course son and Jews call themselves that too. :rolleyes: Going mad? I'm laughing at your attempt at being an anti-fascist. :D

[Dublin12]

Lopez do you like PSG?

[lopez]

Lopez do you like PSG?No. Are they a 'fascist' club too?

[Dublin12]

Well they have a leaning towards the right alright,just wondered if there was some sort of pattern there :D

[lopez]

Never personally felt threatened,but the main problem (Even if a minority!) is the open fascist :mad: imagery on display in the Bernabeau.That is :rolleyes: all!The point about Spain is that, unlike Germany, they have felt - good or bad, right or wrong - that the time for telling people what not to display is too much like Francoism. Fascist symbols include something inocuous as the Spanish national emblem from the dictatorship. Toffs sell a replica of the old Spanish shirt which has this badge on (they also sell, innocently, Italian retro shirts with fascist ensignia, because that was the badges worn during Mussolini's rule). The display of this p*sses me off personally but it can hardly be club policy unless the same flag is displayed over its ground.

Rayo fans have flags of the equally contentious 2nd Republic as well as flags of the Soviet Union. When I was at a Depor v Malaga game a few years back a supporter had a USSR flag. Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'd put the Soviet regime higher on the scale of evil than Fat Frank's if not as bad (for ideological reasons only) as the third reich. But I didn't see the police remove this flag or go and hassle stall holders for selling them.

[lopez]

Well they have a leaning towards the right alright,just wondered if there was some sort of pattern there :DSo I'm a fascist now! :rolleyes:

[Dublin12]

I just don't understand how a club can openly support a fascist group(ultra sur)by encouraging them with free tickets to games and giving them a free hand to do what the fcuk they want in and around the stadium,thats all I have to say about it.

[Dublin12]

N o I didn't say you were a Fascist pal,as Dav said you seem to be a big defender thats all

[lopez]

N o I didn't say you were a Fascist pal,as Dav said you seem to be a big defender thats allOh just a defender of fascism. Oh that's OK then. :rolleyes:

[Dublin12]

Whatever you call it mate :rolleyes: ,you know best

[Aldini98]

Lopez, do you like football? :)

[lopez]

Am a tad surprised,Senor......I'm talking Swastikas,banners with slogans like 'White Power'(Yes,I suppose it could refer to their :rolleyes: kit! ) & the Fascist 'k eltic' cross,so popular with Lazio fans & used by :rolleyes: Stone Island as their logo-says it all?

Anyway,I'm sure plenty of people inside & outside Spain find this Offensive & it should stop!Even,the H*ns keep their fascist symbols :rolleyes: ,to a minimum,If not their views!I've never seen any pictures of swastikas at Real games but there are plenty of other 'fascist' symbols, none of which are used as innocently as Cork's rebel flags. As for the kit, I doubt that had anything to do with race and I see that they replaced the purple away kit with an all black kit when adidas took over.

To be honest, my one visit to see the 'new-shirts' (dear me, even I can't stop alluding to the club's fascist past - well more like ultra conservative past because claiming Franco was a Fascist in the true sense of the word is like claiming a McDonald's chicken nugget came from a farmyard bird), the poor enthusiasm of the rest of the stadium probably requires the club to employ the US to get some sort of atmosphere in. As for football clubs themselves, I like to see their employment policies for a better picture of discrimination and some good old socialist clubs - Liverpool and Everton come to mind - don't come out too good in this.

Whatever you call it mate :rolleyes: ,you know bestThanks for that. We might talk some more when a topic comes up that you actually know something about.

[Dublin12]

No problem son, get back to me when you learn to respect other people's opinion and manage to wake up and smell the coffee,maybe then I'll consider it :D

[Aldini98]

No problem son, get back to me when you learn to respect other people's opinion and manage to wake up and smell the coffee,maybe then I'll consider it :D

That there would be some fightin' talk !!!!! ;)

[Éanna]

I just don't understand how a club can openly support a fascist group(ultra sur)by encouraging them with free tickets to games and giving them a free hand to do what the fcuk they want in and around the stadium,thats all I have to say about it.
Fair point. They do indulge these scum, and a lot of Real fans are far from happy about it. But to be fair, they are not the only club in Spain (let alone europe) to indulge fans of dubious reputation.

[Éanna]

I've never seen any pictures of swastikas at Real games
unfortunately there have been. I have photos of it from Marca or AS from 2 years ago.

[Éanna]

I declare this can of worms WELL AND TRULY OPEN :D

In all seriousness, I think conor has spoken the most sense on this thread. Its a tag, a label, that is used by people with nothing better to do, and without the energy to investigate the real facts. I did a research project on it (only about 12,000 words) for college 2 years ago, so if anyone wants a copy, let me know.

Facts are these:
- Real enjoyed support from the dictatorship.
-There WAS government intervention in the di stefano transfer.
-There is no evidence of government interference in any other matter- other than forcing Barca (and Athletic) to change their name into spanish.
-Real were just better than Barca. Compare the trophy haul under the dictatorship, and since the dictatorship- it proves it.
-Barca have every right to detest Real for the politics of some of its fans and those of previous presidents. it doesn't mean they were cheated.
-Barca's previous president (who spouted the usual Catalan nationalist rhetoric) was a member of the predecessor of the PP, a party founded by members of Franco's government. As was the current Real president
-The Boixos Nois (Barca Ultras) are just as right-wing and nasty as the Ultras Sur. Many Barca fans have turned away from them after they took a turn to the right after Franco's death.

Not facts, but things I firmly believe:

-Talk of refereeing bias- for every ref who sided with Real, you can be sure there was one who sided with Barca. Spain was(is) very evenly divided on the matter.
-Barca are a very successful club. They've won a lot. Real just happen to have won more. And they both won fair and square.
-Barca have just as much access to politicians as Real, and enjoy complete, unrestricted access to the Catalan regional parliament.
-Barca have always had (and continue to have) a large sympathy vote from around the world- this despite the fact that both clubs (to a similar extent) represent the same type of egotistical nationalism and contempt for others, its just that Barca have succeeded in perfecting their "victim" status. Historically, Catalans have been victims, Barca has not

[lopez]

unfortunately there have been. I have photos of it from Marca or AS from 2 years ago.It wouldn't surprise me. Some US got arrested in Germany a few years back (think it was the Dortmund first leg in 98) for doing a Prince Harry impersonation. They didn't realise that it's a criminal offence there.

[Éanna]

It wouldn't surprise me.
unfortunately me neither. two lads holding big 3rd reich flags with a proud swastika bang in the middle. :rolleyes: of course, they regularly have the old spanish flag with the dictatorship's insignia on it (name escapes me) which is illegal in Spain

[lopez]

unfortunately me neither. two lads holding big 3rd reich flags with a proud swastika bang in the middle. :rolleyes: of course, they regularly have the old spanish flag with the dictatorship's insignia on it (name escapes me) which is illegal in SpainOne. Great. Free. Didn't know the flag was illegal in Spain though. Note for anyone visiting Spain with their Toffs retro 1964 top, then: Don't. Also words to the Spanish anthem is a highly controversial issue. I heard that our old friend Luis Hablo-cojones was apparently told to keep his mouth shut during the anthem.

Thought your summary (and Connor's) was excellent. I'd disagree with the bit about the Catalans. I'd say a large section - just like the rest of Spain - were victims while a minority done very well out of it all. But then life is never (if you pardon the pun) black and white.

[Éanna]

Also words to the Spanish anthem is a highly controversial issue.
am I right in thinking there are no "Official" words to it, but two (or more) different versions which would indicate a persons politics fairly clearly, depnding on which version they sing?


I'd disagree with the bit about the Catalans. I'd say a large section - just like the rest of Spain - were victims while a minority done very well out of it all.
I agree with you there. Some people did very well out of it- Nunez the ex-barca president for example.


Another thing I remembered as well- if Barca fans want a hate figure, how about Primo de Rivera, the dictator before franco in the 1920's. he actually banned the club from all competitions for 6 months for booing the Spanish anthem. that never happened under franco

[lopez]

am I right in thinking there are no "Official" words to it, but two (or more) different versions which would indicate a persons politics fairly clearly, depnding on which version they sing?
You're right. The 'Marcha Real' has no official words but it was used as the anthem under Fat Frank. While I knew there were words written I only found out recently that one set was official under Franco. I typed in 'Himno de Espana' in google and unsurprisingly got linked to this.

http://www.americanfascistmovement.com/music.htm

Cara Al Sol was another song and it is here that the derogatory term 'new shirt' comes in. A 'new shirt' was someone who joined the 'movimiento' for reasons nothing to do with the Falangists of Jose Antonio PdR. Monarchists, capitalists, churchmen, Carlists, and general scumbags. All usually in an effort to get a slice of the action. Nothing unusual here as the same happens in all totalitarian regimes, left or right.

As you might know Joselito was shot in Alicante by the Republicans through Franco's insistence not to do a deal with them over exchanging prisoners. Of course nothing to do with a threat to his power. :rolleyes: Then Joselito's number 2 (who's name I think was Herrera) ended up as a guest of the fat one with the reds when he too criticised him. Something about a riot with some Basque Carlists at a Movimiento meeting in San Sebastian also comes to mind. Then we have Jose Gil Robles, the leader of the Catholic fascist CEDA who did more than anyone to stir up the SCW but ended up a 'democrat' according to Juan Carlos's dad who gave an eulogy at his funeral. Elbowed out by Franco, he later voiced his concerns at a Christian Democrat congress in Munich circa 1964. For his troubles he was arrested at Barajas on his return before being pencilled in for the last flight out of Madrid. However the story goes that this was to Dakar and some generous cop thought this was a bit severe and waited until the morning for a flight to Paris instead. Like Carillo and Ibarruri, he only returned once Fat Frank was a stiffy.

[Closed Account 2]

Does anyone know the political leanings of the second clubs in those cities (ie Atletico Madrid and Espanyol). I know there were rumours that the Frente Atletico were/are right wing, and the club may have had some involvement with the Air Force of Franco during the Civil War (when it was renamed Atletico Aviacion), but I was let to believe more recently that it draws its support from the South-West of the City, which is the poorer bit and many of its supporters are substantially Argentine (and other Latin American 2nd Generations) and are not pro-fascist. I think the last bit may well be true as I've spotted numerous Argentine flags at their matches, and when they played Valencia 18 months or so ago I noticed they cheered when Aimar was on the ball.

[Pat O' Banton]

Does anyone know the political leanings of the second clubs in those cities (ie Atletico Madrid and Espanyol).

Espanyol I believe tend towards the right as they were set up to see themselves as the antisis to Barca - ie the Spanish side in Catalonia. However ironically enough this lead to many of the Spanish 'immigrants' to Catalonia supporting Barca, afterall its difficult enough moving to a new area where there is already hostility to who you are, so why not at least try to make things easier by involving yourself in the local culture by supporting locals club.

I think that this is the synopsis that Phil Ball gives in his book Morbo about the Spanish game. (he also points out that Madrid's last president before Franco was a commnuist and that they had a large left wing support before the Civil War as Madrid itself was a fairly left wing city)

Any corrections to this I'm sure the good Senor can help!

[SÓC]

Éanna has actually written a very good and (suprisingly:D) balance thesis/essay on this before, he (for once in his life) speaks sense on this subject

All I have to say is

Catalonia Supports London 2012

Best Banner EVER

[Éanna]

All I have to say is

Catalonia Supports London 2012

Best Banner EVER
it was excellent alright. BTW, try telling a Catalan that the olympics were in Spain in 1992 :eek: It drives them nuts :D

[Éanna]

Does anyone know the political leanings of the second clubs in those cities (ie Atletico Madrid and Espanyol). I know there were rumours that the Frente Atletico were/are right wing, and the club may have had some involvement with the Air Force of Franco during the Civil War (when it was renamed Atletico Aviacion),

Espanyol are very firmly right wing- well their ultras are anyway, and as was said above, the club was founded in opposition to the foreigners (Swiss & English) who founded Barca- hence the name "Espanyol." The full name of the club is Real Club Deporitvo Espanyol- Royal Spanish Sporting Club literally.They did call themselves Español for a long time, but then changed it to Espanyol, the Catalan spelling of the word, in a token effort at reconciliation with Catalanists.

Pathetico Madrid are a strange lot. They were called Ath. Aviacion at one stage when, as far as i know, Franco's brother was involved with them. The Frente Pathetico are very right wing, not far behind the Ultras Sur, the Boixos Nois and The Gijon Ultras (name escapes me) as Roberto Carlos will testify thanks to the grunts he got from them.

their president until a few years back was Jesus Gil, one of the most insane right wing politicians in spain- he was best buddys with Franco- who pardoned him and released him from jail after his holiday apartments collapsed and killed 50-something people (they'd been built without planning permission, or the use of an architect). he was also the Mayor of marbella, was linked with the Russian mafia and called his party the Grupo Independiente Liberalista (Independent liberal group)- strange for a man with such right wing views, until you realise that the name was shortened to his own surname G.I.L. Not that he had an ego or anything ;)

Also, Gil is responsible for one of the best comments ever- in an interview shortly after he'd had a bypass, he got rather excited, and when the interviewer told him to calm down, he replied "They can shove my heart up their arses." Charming fella :)

[Closed Account 2]

which is the bigger match for the fans, the Madrid derby or Barca-Real?

[Duncan Gardner]

Good summary by Eanna.

I recommend 'Morbo' and 'White Storm' by Phil Ball (an English journo who's lived in the Pais Vasco for many years).

My Dad met Santiago Bernabeu once, in 1975. Real were playing Derby in the EC (5-1, 1-4) and SB gave plenty of tickets to the expat Brit community. He was about 80 then and a bit of a grandee, but nice gesture.

The old man went for a **** at half-time, couldn't get back in, spent the rest of the game chatting and drinking with the US :)

[Aldini98]

Interesting to read the pieces by Eanna & the good Senor.....my only gripe is that the US's banners' should be censored,as many of them are highly offensive & project a v.bad image of R.Madrid...........for this reason I for one,would always dislike that club.Though sadly, :o is one of the great European stadia to watch football.....

Still not a patch on the Camp Nou - trust me !!!!!

[lopez]

Does anyone know the political leanings of the second clubs in those cities (ie Atletico Madrid and Espanyol).To me Pathetico are as right-wing or not as Real. The lefty club of Madrid is Rayo. If you ever see their matches they are always full of flags of the 2nd Republic (Red, yellow, purple), Che Guevara and Jamaica :confused: . Espanyol are like Pathetico and Madrid with a right wing gang called, I think, Brigada Azul, but also other groupings including Catalan nationalists. I was told by one of their fans at Euro 96 that the bank Caixa Catalunya put pressure on the board to change the name. Real Madrid has far more support in Barcelona than Espanyol. I was in a sports shop and I asked the barca supporter if he sold many of the Real shirts there. 'Yes he said and a hell of lot more than that sh*t over there', pointing to the Espanyol shirts.

All I have to say is

Catalonia Supports London 2012

Best Banner EVERYeah and London supports Paris 2012. :D Ask the German Lady.

The Gijon Ultras (name escapes me)
I think they are called 'Brigada del Norte'.

it was excellent alright. BTW, try telling a Catalan that the olympics were in Spain in 1992. It drives them nuts Saw the leader of the CiU on yesterdays TVEi. He seems very much an Espanolista to me. Actually during Euro 96 I was a bit shocked up at Leeds when I got talking to some Spanish fans in the Elland Road clubhouse. They told me they were from Barcelona and I presumed that they would not be Barca fans. Wrong!

I recommend 'Morbo' and 'White Storm' by Phil Ball (an English journo who's lived in the Pais Vasco for many years).Good books. Also Jimmy Burns 'When Beckham Went To Spain' also gives a balanced view of the 'newshirts' by the man Ball claimed of his hagiography of B*stardolona should have been called 'Barca, Good. Real, Bad'. BTW, DG. It's Euskadi not Pais Vasco. Even the children of Franco within the PP call it that now. ;)

Interesting to read the pieces by Eanna & the good Senor.....my only gripe is that the US's banners' should be censored,as many of them are highly offensive & project a v.bad image of R.Madrid...........for this reason I for one,would always dislike that club.Though sadly,is one of the great European stadia to watch football.....I agree with anything regarding neo-fascism being removed. The idea that swastikas are being brought into the ground is a disgrace. Another point about 'fascism' within Spanish clubs is that members can still choose their presidents while in Britain and Ireland you just have to take what you are given. The irony?

BTW, my only arrest inside a football ground was at a Barca pre-season friendly against Dynamo Kiev in La Coruna in the early eighties. It kicked off big time, with many OAPs getting stuck in throwing everything they could get their hands, on at the Policia Nacional after they man-handled, in their typical pre-charm school days, some kids that got onto the pitch. I just thought 'when in Rome...' :D

[jofyisgod]

Espanyol are a frequently forgotten/ignored club. Guillem Balague, of MARCA and Sky Sports is a fan, strangely enough.
Excellent project from Éanna is available if you e-mail him.

[eoinh]

Does anyone know the political leanings of the second clubs in those cities (ie Atletico Madrid and Espanyol).

Espanyol as you know means spainish in catalan. However in recent years they have been trying to widen their appeal in various ways including changing the name of the club. Until a few years ago the club was actually known by its spainish name Espanol.

My cousins from Barcelona are huge FC Barcelona fans and are proud Catalans. But however they also see themselves as Spainish. Its impossible really to classify an entire teams support as left/right wing etc.

Just because one vocal element puts up flags does not mean everybody in the crowd agrees/disagrees with it.

You couldnt classify Cork City supporters into one coherent political block so why try and do it with other teams?

[Duncan Gardner]

BTW, DG. It's Euskadi not Pais Vasco. Even the children of Franco within the PP call it that now. ;)

Gracias, Senor, lo siento. Felicitaciones a su amigo, Don Manuel Fraga en Galicia :)

Viva Sanchez

[lopez]

Espanyol as you know means spainish in catalan. However in recent years they have been trying to widen their appeal in various ways including changing the name of the club. Until a few years ago the club was actually known by its spainish name Espanol.

My cousins from Barcelona are huge FC Barcelona fans and are proud Catalans. But however they also see themselves as Spainish. Its impossible really to classify an entire teams support as left/right wing etc.

Just because one vocal element puts up flags does not mean everybody in the crowd agrees/disagrees with it.

You couldnt classify Cork City supporters into one coherent political block so why try and do it with other teams?Very good post Eoin. No team can be categorised in such a way unless it's stated policy of the club themselves, although when the club gets new owners or ruler, things do change. Eg: Pre Murray Rangers. If you were to take an English example then try Chelsea. It has such a vocal minority who in one incident attacked a fanzine editor of the same club for questioning the politics of some supporters. Whether Chelsea is still infilitrated by these people is questionable considering how much it costs now to watch them but the club itself can't be called a supporter of neo-nazis when it's chairman is a Jew. The worst incident I saw of neo-nazi football fans in England was before Villa's championship winning match at Arsenal. Some skinhead had a Hitler mask and was walking down the road shouting about 'Gassing the Jews'. I doubt that Pat O'B would agree that this is typical of much of Arsenal's support, many who are not only black but also Jews.

Also Espanyol (or as it was called Espanol until the nineties) was not a dig at Catalan nationalism when it was founded but a statement that Barcelona FC was discriminating against locals in its playing staff. If it was founded today it would be called Catalá no doubt. Also I find that the view of how most Catalans see themselves is Spanish aswell as Catalan. It is a much mistaken fact that Spain's present consitution gained it's biggest support in Catalonia. The resentment that minority groups in Spain feel is to the Castillianisation of their country/region rather than to Spain itself.

Gracias, Senor, lo siento. Felicitaciones a su amigo, Don Manuel Fraga en Galicia :)

Viva SanchezAs you know DG the Don is no friend of the Lopez clan, although I did find an English beggar and former fisherman the only one with anything good to say about him when I was last in Coruna. Then Manny did pick up his hospital tab, so that's fair enough. BTW, the Don's recent words of wisdom - in yesterday's La Voz de Galicia - was that he's going to die without ever having put on a condom. :rolleyes:

[Pat O' Banton]

I doubt that Pat O'B would agree that this is typical of much of Arsenal's support,



Unfortunatley at the time it was typical of a very vocal section of Arsenal's support, things have got a lot better since but are still (in my view) no means perfect.

[lopez]

Unfortunatley at the time it was typical of a very vocal section of Arsenal's support, things have got a lot better since but are still (in my view) no means perfect.Since I started meeting Jewish people I've found the notion of Spurs as some sort of Jewish club a joke. In fact as was seen when 'Luton' last paid a visit there, there seems to be a lot of the stiff-armed brigade at WHL. Still it didn't stop Mister Metropolitan Poleeeesman arresting anyone with a Palesitinian flag. Anyway, all the Jews that I've known who support football have followed Arsenal. FFS, the chairman of Arsenal (David Dein) is Jewish too. I don't know one Jew who supports Spurs, Warren Mitchell excepted.

[Duncan Gardner]

If you were to take an English example then try Chelsea. It has such a vocal minority who in one incident attacked a fanzine editor of the same club for questioning the politics of some supporters. Whether Chelsea is still infilitrated by these people is questionable considering how much it costs now to watch them but the club itself can't be called a supporter of neo-nazis when it's chairman is a Jew

Aye, I remember that incident, if you mean the one on the away trip to Prague (Viktoria Zizkov). Chelsea have been the most expensive English club to watch since at least the mid-80s, so I doubt the £50 admission has driven all the thugs away, alas. I haven't actually been inside SB since a 0-3 thrashing by Leeds where Davros got ejected twice :rolleyes:

If the club tolerates neo-Nazism then I say it's equally guilty. As it was when I occasionally used to sell the Chelsea Independent. We'd be moved on by the Police at KB's request, while obviously offensive racist material continued to be openly sold :(


BTW, the Don's recent words of wisdom - in yesterday's La Voz de Galicia - was that he's going to die without ever having put on a condom. :rolleyes:

Let's add the spread of Aids to the Francoists' list of crimes!