The 'Kenny Shiels is quite the interesting character' thread.

[El-Pietro]

Apparently the ref gave them nothing last night. He should have booked Harry Monaghan in the first few minutes for a professional foul on the half way line, and then Monaghan did get booked a few minutes later for a foul around the box.
At one point one of their lads went through Keohane and was given a free kick. Plus countless times Seani could have been given frees and wasn't. Of the ones near us I'd say most were fair, but there were a few he could have given.
Hes great value is Kenny.

[Sam_Heggy]

http://www.derryjournal.com/sport/football/let-s-bray-fair-kenny-shiels-hits-out-at-clubs-living-beyond-their-means-1-8167150

The latest deflection rant from Mr Shiels.

Has he a point??

Clubs paying more than they can afford isn't exactly new to LOI, or most leagues in fairness. Doesn't make it right though.

[Mr A]

His chairman puts in massive money every year. While he has a point about Bray, he is also spending plenty where he is- that's why they can offer young players full time football which help with the development he is so fond of mentioning. Will dig out the original thread and merge these BTW.

[nigel-harps1954]

He may have a point, but he'd need to look closer to home before going on such a rant.

[osarusan]

What can be done about it really. Does anybody thinks the licensing process means anything any more?

The worst offenders will eventually suffer, be it relegation or even bankruptcy.

And with the FAI seemingly willing to let new debt-free clubs form and then just become the old club again, the suffering might not even be that long-lasting.

[Mr A]

That is a key point. If licensing does not at least try to prevent clubs from walking away from debt and restarting- what is the point of it? Mostly it seems to be a tool to pressure the clubs who're making some effort to do things right to be better, while the complete basket cases carry on regardless because we're already short of clubs and the league needs them.

[pineapple stu]

He mentions Financial Fair Play, but my understanding is that (a) it doesn't apply to clubs as small as the LoI, and (b) it mainly concerns losses. So even if FFP applied here, which it doesn't, the FAI get around it by requiring investors to put money into their clubs by way of income, not loans. At I think that's fair; at least that way, the loan can't be called in (in theory anyway; hello Wexford).

Obviously there's issues though when Waterford and Wexford can seemingly just restart with no penalty.

[brendy_éire]

I think the point is more that clubs, Bray in this case, can outbid other clubs on wages, then turn round and declare that they can't guarantee to pay the wages.
Bray have openly stated that they can pay wages until the end of the season, but we'll assume not beyond that, regardless of the length of contract.
If McCabe, as an example, was offered €1,000 a week for a two years at Bray, or €800 a week for two years at Derry, it's obvious where he'd choose.
With the benefit of hindsight though, would have chosen the Derry option, knowing (fingers crossed!) he'll have two years steady wages?

Many clubs rely on donations to get by. It's far from ideal, but that's the way it is.
The issue is when donors can't/won't follow through on their commitments. There doesn't appear to be any form of punishment for a club not fulfilling its employment contracts.

[osarusan]

I think the point is more that clubs, Bray in this case, can outbid other clubs on wages, then turn round and declare that they can't guarantee to pay the wages.

How can you stop it from happening though?

I know in Limerick's case, we were asked to deposit a certain amount in an account, to prove that the money was actually there - could this be made standard policy?

Is there much of a difference between Derry and Limerick, compared to Bray, other than our money men didn't stop (or threaten to stop) putting in money during the season?

We can laugh at the FAI and licensing...but if the FAI really did implement a proper licensing policy, and started really punishing or excluding clubs for breaching policy/failure to meet the standards, there'd probably be no league left.

Most clubs barely get by on whatever they can scrape together, however they can scrape it together.

Neither the clubs or the FAI are in much of a position to ask too many probing questions about where the money comes from.

[EatYerGreens]

An article about Bray in the latest issue of When Saturday Comes' magazine sums the whole problem up nicely :

"Most clubs pay more to the FAI in fees every year than they receive back in prize money. And the pay of the Association's Chief Executive exceeds the total prize money given to Irish football every year. As a result, new applicants have evaporated and two league places have sat unfilled since 2011-12. For an ambitious non-league club, joining the League of Ireland would mean signing up to financial suicide and institutional neglect".

[trevy]

Lee Power said he cleared all Waterford United's debts and it was just a rebranding with new name and club badge so wasn't a case of walking away from debts and starting again.
Kenny Shield has a fair point with his comments there.

[Ezeikial]

Good craic from Kenny Shiels on why he is the no 1 on youth development

You can listen to the interview on the link below




Kenny Shiels on Stephen Kenny: "He'd never bring in a youth player from another club that he thinks he could develop"

The Derry City manager talked about his development philosophy at Derry City

Derry City manager Kenny Shiels joined Tuesday's Off the Ball to reflect on the opening few weeks of the League of Ireland.
Shiels was keen to talk about how his development strategy at the club differs from the rest and speaking to Nathan, he said: "None of the other teams seem to be doing it to the extreme that we are. I don't know why that is - it's just unfortunate. I think the attraction for young players to come to Derry is probably because I'm here and my record in youth development and player development but more importantly it's because they see it as a stepping stone to England or Scotland.

"They don't see that with the other clubs as much. If you look at James McClean and Daniel Rafferty and Niall McGinn and the history of our club. We're a small parish but Derry, in comparison to Dublin and Cork, it's fantastic what they've turned out over the years in Derry City.
"So that's appealing to a young nineteen year old coming back from England..so they see it as a good appeal for them.


"Whereas the other clubs they go and bring in 'ready-made' - if you look at Stephen Kenny every season - he's bringing in 'ready-made' - he'd never bring in a youth player from another club that he thinks he could develop that player.
"Everybody has got their own skillset and Stephen can bring in players that are ready to go and challenge for the top trophies.
"It's just a different psyche and a different philosophy for his club," he added.


http://www.offtheball.com/Soccer/Kenny-Shiels-on-Stephen-Kenny:-Hed-never-bring-in-a-youth-player-from-another-club-

[El-Pietro]

lol 6 ex Cork City players in the current International Squad.

[Nesta99]

Not to mention the players he named were at Derry under Stephen Kenny.

[Straightstory]

Not to mention the players he named were at Derry under Stephen Kenny.
Yes!!!!

[Mr A]

Kenny Shiels diverting attention from the fact he has a very significant budget with huge backing from his chairman. He does so very well.

[ger121]

Is it just me or does Shiels remind you of Trump sometimes. They both seem to come out with the weirdest ****,hoping if they say it loud enough and often enough, that eventually it will be taken as fact. Plus I reckon Shiels is partial to the Oompa Loompa juice too.

[gufcfan]

Is it just me or does Shiels remind you of Trump sometimes.

He's more like the Roddy Collins of old, without the being entertaining part.

[sbgawa]

That's a bit harsh on Sheils , he is more of a "character" where as Roddy has transformed into full on Roddy Caricture, is the original Roddy even there anymore?

[DCWA]

https://www.derrynow.com/sport/letter-fans-kenny-shiels-pens-explosive-letter-derry-city-supporters-explaining-difficulties-facing-club-discovering-local-talent/252295

Kenny Shiels has written an open letter to the youth football fraternity in the city in response to criticism as regards the lack local players.....

It raises some points as regards the impact the new underage structure may have however does not account for the loss of several young local players who had already made the first team but have subsequently left - Boyle, Daniels, Doherty etc. which is were most of the frustration stems from.

Shane McEleney - Larne
David McDaid - Larne
Josh Daniels - Glenavon
Ben Doherty - Glenavon
Niall Grace - Glenavon
Ciaron Harkin - Coleraine
Rory Patterson - Crusaders
Patrick McClean - Sligo
Patrick McEleney - Dundalk
Dean Jarvis - Dundalk
Michael Duffy - Dundalk
Aaron Barry - Cork (obviously not "local" but felt like it after a longstanding partnership with McBride)
Barry McNamee - Cork
Nathan Boyle - Finn Harps
Pat McCourt - Finn Harps
Mark Timlin - Finn Harps


Those are the type of players people in Derry would point to and would be annoyed at from recent times, although frankly we are in no position to compete with Dundalk or Cork and many of those either wouldn't be good enough or have already failed at Derry City so I sympathise with Shiels, probably the only one I'd take issue with would be Daniels (maybe Boyle). I'd of course have loved him to sign McCourt at the time but his reasons for not doing so were perfectly valid.

If he is around next season it will be interesting to see what the team looks like come February.

[nigel-harps1954]

All well and good pointing at players who have come and gone, but the underage structure at Derry is about 90% Donegal players. And not even just Inishowen, but as far as Letterkenny, Ramelton and Ballybofey. I've seen and heard of players getting texts from people within Donegal Schoolboys, having a link with Derry City, who have been told not to sign for Finn Harps and go to Derry instead. They don't want to have to deal with international clearance for young players twice a year. I think that's the big issue.

[Mr A]

As Nigel says, the Derry youth teams have been, and absolutely remain disproportionately focussed on Donegal players. Kenny appears to be blaming this on other clubs in Derry. He might want to look a wee bit closer to home.

[oriel]

https://www.derrynow.com/sport/letter-fans-kenny-shiels-pens-explosive-letter-derry-city-supporters-explaining-difficulties-facing-club-discovering-local-talent/252295

Kenny Shiels has written an open letter to the youth football fraternity in the city in response to criticism as regards the lack local players.....

It raises some points as regards the impact the new underage structure may have however does not account for the loss of several young local players who had already made the first team but have subsequently left - Boyle, Daniels, Doherty etc. which is were most of the frustration stems from.

Shane McEleney - Larne
David McDaid - Larne
Josh Daniels - Glenavon
Ben Doherty - Glenavon
Niall Grace - Glenavon
Ciaron Harkin - Coleraine
Rory Patterson - Crusaders
Patrick McClean - Sligo
Patrick McEleney - Dundalk
Dean Jarvis - Dundalk
Michael Duffy - Dundalk
Aaron Barry - Cork (obviously not "local" but felt like it after a longstanding partnership with McBride)
Barry McNamee - Cork
Nathan Boyle - Finn Harps
Pat McCourt - Finn Harps
Mark Timlin - Finn Harps


Those are the type of players people in Derry would point to and would be annoyed at from recent times, although frankly we are in no position to compete with Dundalk or Cork and many of those either wouldn't be good enough or have already failed at Derry City so I sympathise with Shiels, probably the only one I'd take issue with would be Daniels (maybe Boyle). I'd of course have loved him to sign McCourt at the time but his reasons for not doing so were perfectly valid.

If he is around next season it will be interesting to see what the team looks like come February.

That’s some list of players from Derry and interesting to see all the other teams they moved on to, its more like a mass exodus ! However worth noting for Michael Duffy, Derry got a decent transfer for him from Celtic (over £100K) and he didn’t move direct to Dundalk, who in turn had to pay Celtic a substantial fee as he was still their player under contract while on loan at Dundee, the fee was never announced but I think it was over 50k.

Patrick McLean was with Waterford first also I think from that list?

[Martinho II]

That’s some list of players from Derry and interesting to see all the other teams they moved on to, its more like a mass exodus ! However worth noting for Michael Duffy, Derry got a decent transfer for him from Celtic (over £100K) and he didn’t move direct to Dundalk, who in turn had to pay Celtic a substantial fee as he was still their player under contract while on loan at Dundee, the fee was never announced but I think it was over 50k.

Patrick McLean was with Waterford first also I think from that list?

yeah thats right. didnt realise that Shane McElaney had come home from the USA. is he playin in the NI league long?

[brendy_éire]

All well and good pointing at players who have come and gone, but the underage structure at Derry is about 90% Donegal players.....I think that's the big issue.

Why?


yeah thats right. didnt realise that Shane McElaney had come home from the USA. is he playin in the NI league long?

Came back at the start of the year there.
Paddy McClean was at Waterford before Sligo, and Derry before that.

Shiels probably has a point, but you'd wonder what the club have done to work with the clubs he's giving off about.

The fact that there's been so many departures of local players under his management can hardly help matters either. Some would have left simply but they're not good enough, granted, but it's not as if most of those he's brought in from Britain and beyond have been any better than what we've lost.

[marinobohs]

An article about Bray in the latest issue of When Saturday Comes' magazine sums the whole problem up nicely :

"Most clubs pay more to the FAI in fees every year than they receive back in prize money. And the pay of the Association's Chief Executive exceeds the total prize money given to Irish football every year. As a result, new applicants have evaporated and two league places have sat unfilled since 2011-12. For an ambitious non-league club, joining the League of Ireland would mean signing up to financial suicide and institutional neglect".

THE biggest single issue facing football here. the FAI don't care about our league and are solely interested in feathering their own nest, wallowing in the Ole Ole nonsense and masquerading as football administrators. As long as Delaney's Donkeys ru(I)n the league it will go nowhere.

[marinobohs]

Good craic from Kenny Shiels on why he is the no 1 on youth development

You can listen to the interview on the link below



http://www.offtheball.com/Soccer/Kenny-Shiels-on-Stephen-Kenny:-Hed-never-bring-in-a-youth-player-from-another-club-

Actually I think its beyond doubt that Stephen Kenny (whatever other faults he may have) is a master at developing players in this LOI era. Throughout his career he has improved/developed players and most if not all of his teams are far better than the sum of the parts. Shiel's just strikes me as a bulls1t merchant (admittedly occasionally funny, deliberate or not).

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Actually I think its beyond doubt that Stephen Kenny (whatever other faults he may have) is a master at developing players in this LOI era. Throughout his career he has improved/developed players and most if not all of his teams are far better than the sum of the parts. Shiel's just strikes me as a bulls1t merchant (admittedly occasionally funny, deliberate or not).

I'd say the key word is youth development, Kenny is undoubtedly doing a brilliant job in Dundalk at taking players and improving them no end with the odd exception, but he hasn't brought a single youth player through in his 6 years at Dundalk. He's done brilliantly at developing players but it's more moneyball (obviously not a moneyball model but you get the point) than class of 92.

[oriel]

Kenny may not have taken a single youth player through at Dundalk to be a first team consistent regular, but he has made the point that players he has gone for have not come from the bigger clubs or rivals.

Hoban came from Mervue at the start, Towell was training with Bluebell, Boyle was with UCD, Massey from Bray, Gannon from Pats squad but not first choice, even O’Donnell was a risk, Benson from UCD, then more recent examples of Hoare and McGrath.

Dundalk have paid fees of course for players like McEleney (twice), Horgan, Kilduff, and prob the most for Duffy, but I think it’s fair to balance out SK has gone for players who were to an extent not the finished articles and in some cases unheard of.

Not too many youth players coming through is a fair point but there have been a good few who did make first team appearances like the two O’Connors, and that lad Cartlon on loan at Galway, unfortunately they were all up against much better players.

[Nesta99]

The issue of youth development is being addressed at Dundalk with some potential real stars in the U19s. 3 of them in particular available for u17 but have been in the senior squad on some match nights and have had game time in the liikes of the LSC. Historically there has been a poor record of youth development success stories at Dundalk where there was a rift between schoolboy clubs and Dundalk and where players have had something of a breakthrough they'd gone off the rails thinking they've made it to superstar status. We dont want to be stepping on the toes of the leagues youth club in Tallaght and as Rovers know it takes time and significant committment of resources to bring through youth and the return is well down the line. I doubt we will have access to players that will be on Rovers' scale but there are things afoot to be better at bringing players on from youths since before Peak6.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Don't get me wrong I wasn't necessarily having a go at Kenny, personally I prefer youth development as there's something special about seeing a kid go from in goal for a half time penalty shootout to saving a penalty against the league champions but I can also appreciate and admire the skill of taking players not wanted by the other top clubs and turning them into world beaters, just pointing out that while he has been successful at developing players they haven't been youth players as per Shiels' comments so that's a key point in the who's the best at youth development conversation.

[dong]

It must be still difficult for Shamrock Rovers fans to see what has happened with the massive success Kenny had had at Dundalk when you think of what could have been.
I wonder why he got it so badly wrong there or were there factors beyond his control that led to his poor record?

[Nesta99]

At the time it was said that players wouldnt buy in to his expectations on strength and conditioning in particular. After 2 league titles players felt it wasnt broke so why fix it. Did the locking Kenny out of the changing room by the players at ht really happen?

[RathfarnhamHoop]

He bought Kerra Gilbert, that in itself is a sackable offence. Being honest you do think what could have been but you can do that for anything, what if MON had stayed if the question I ask more, and you also think well would we have the training ground and academy, would we have seen the likes of Bazunu come through so there's pros and cons really.

[marinobohs]

Don't get me wrong I wasn't necessarily having a go at Kenny, personally I prefer youth development as there's something special about seeing a kid go from in goal for a half time penalty shootout to saving a penalty against the league champions but I can also appreciate and admire the skill of taking players not wanted by the other top clubs and turning them into world beaters, just pointing out that while he has been successful at developing players they haven't been youth players as per Shiels' comments so that's a key point in the who's the best at youth development conversation.

Maybe Dundalk are more interested in winning titles than flogging one 16 year old for big money.
Youth development is the current ‘nirvana ‘ (or excuse) for some. Ironically it differs little from the schoolboy factories of older days (Kevin’s Home Farm, Joeys etc)
Kenny is a better manager than Shiels by any rational criteria and their respective records prove that. Keith Long among others has developed far more young players than Shiels but I doubt many would suggest he is a better manager than Kenny (yet 😁)

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Maybe Dundalk are more interested in winning titles than flogging one 16 year old for big money.
Youth development is the current ‘nirvana ‘ (or excuse) for some. Ironically it differs little from the schoolboy factories of older days (Kevin’s Home Farm, Joeys etc)
Kenny is a better manager than Shiels by any rational criteria and their respective records prove that. Keith Long among others has developed far more young players than Shiels but I doubt many would suggest he is a better manager than Kenny (yet 😁)

Of course winning trophies is preferable, if you read what I said all I said was when it comes to players being developed at clubs I prefer to see the kid who's supported the club and been in the youth team for years come good than the journey man go from 3rd choice at a similar level club to a world beater.

It's not the "current nirvana" for some it's just something that every club that wants to progress and be sustainable needs think Busby babes, 60's Celtic, 70's Ajax, class of 92, Barcelona's circa 2011 teams and it's where Irish clubs have failed in the past so yes fans who can see their club trying to do something exciting that other clubs haven't tried in Ireland before get some pleasure from it.

It also differs hugely from the schoolboy factories in that players are being developed for the first team and not explicitly to be sold on. They are though like any other player in that if a "too good to turn down" offer comes in they'll be sold. The sale of Bazunu is no different to that of Burke, both were bought in to play for the first team not to make a quick buck.

Yes he is a better manager but that's not what was said, it was about youth development and you've confused that with management in general and development of non youth players.

[Ezeikial]

Derry City have an outstanding record of developing young players over the last 10-15 years.

Shamrock Rovers have shown strong potential in the same area over the last 10-15 months.

Neither Kenny Shield nor Stephen Bradley are exclusively responsible

[Ezeikial]

Neither Kenny Shield nor Stephen Bradley are exclusively responsible

.....or, arguably, deserve much of the credit.

It could be reasonably claimed that both have actually failed miserably in their primary role with the respective first teams

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Did you actually just make a comment to bring up a certain manager so that you could then reply to said comment to have a dig at that manager? What a sad sad life you must have.

[oriel]

It must be still difficult for Shamrock Rovers fans to see what has happened with the massive success Kenny had had at Dundalk when you think of what could have been.


I think that’s a fair observation / thought. I was thinking on any other examples of managers winning trophies at different clubs and there is a fair few in the modern times like Fenlon (Shels and Bohs) and McLaughlin (Dundalk, Rovers, Derry, Shels). However these were all examples of winning at previous club and repeating at new club.

I remember too well the shock when McLaughlin left Dundalk in 83 after winning 3 leagues and 3 cups to win a league straight away at Rovers in 84 then a double in 85, or maybe that was Keely’s first year. Keely also retuned to Dundalk to win a league in 95.

The move by Kenny being sacked by Rovers then moving to Dundalk the following year and currently on 4 titles, while in the same period Rovers only winning one trophy (League cup ?), that has to play on the mind of a lot of a Rovers fans.

Can anyone remember how far Rovers were behind in the league when they sacked him around Aug/Sept in 2012, was it def out of the question they would not retain the league?

[Asterix]

Think it was about 13 points off sligo. He was sacked on the 11th of September and his last home league win was on the 18th of May.

[sbgawa]

The idea that if Kenny had stuck around at rovers success would follow is rubbish. Kenny has been successful and unsuccessful at different clubs. The current hero worship at dundalk is completely understandable. It will be interesting to see what happens when he leaves. Strong rumour that he is looking for a way out right now. If he leaves either now or later given his record with dundalk he may return in the future , will he be successful again? Who knows , luck with players hitting form and timing plays a part.
Dunfirmiline and rovers fans don't agree with dundalk fans but that's the way it goes. At the moment Kenny can do no wrong , that's just the way it is

[oriel]

That is just the way it goes, it didn’t work out for him at Rovers, I’ve no problems with that. He won’t be with Dundalk forever either, that’s obvious but he is contracted to end of 2020.

[sbgawa]

I think Kenny Sheils is walking a plank at Derry. The chairman calling him out on recruitment recently was bizarre and I think some of the statements he has made of late have been in a self justifying and defensive nature. I will be surprised if he is still there next season........st pats ?

[mcgonigle]

It will be interesting to see what happens when he leaves. Strong rumour that he is looking for a way out right now.

Strong rumour, really? This is the first I've heard of it. No talk amongst Dundalk fans, doesn't sound very strong

[Ezeikial]

Did you actually just make a comment to bring up a certain manager so that you could then reply to said comment to have a dig at that manager?

No, I just don't trust the mobile edit feature - safer to add an additional comment.

But feel free to comment, if you disagree with what I said in either post


What a sad sad life you must have.

Live is full of joy at the moment, and looking forward to Friday night's trophy presentation

[sbgawa]

Yeah I remember the night we won our 13th title, it was joyful alright , enjoy.

[oriel]

Just curious on that 13th title for Rovers, doing a mental tie back here, if you are on 17 now, was that one the last of the 4-in-a-row? back in 1987?

[sbgawa]

No the year before. Galway were second , u boys 3rd.
One of the great things about the 1899 suite/bar in Tallaght is the club get the likes of pat Byrne, Noel Larkin etc to come in and present jerseys player awards or just to talk regular enough. Every club should do that (I'm sure most do) the opportunity to meet your hero's from years ago is great. Without exception they have been fantastic speakers

[placid casual]

Think Stephen Kenny would be mad to leave dundalk. He has a job for life there and has proven successful. I feel if he went anywhere else he would die on his ar$e, to be honest.
I heard talk of him for the Ireland job- I think the championship/lower division dog$hit players we currently have wearing the green shirt would laugh his methods out the door- it would say as much about them as him, in my view.

I can assure one and all that Rovers fans do not pine for the one that got away in Kenny, but the last proper manager we had (MON) and how he's continued his success with norn iron.