Airtricity League report

[bluewhitearmy]

To me it says a lot about attitudes that they would talk about cutting down the premier rather than trying to grow the first division.

[outspoken]

I've finally lost all faith in the LOI ever going anywhere. A ten team top flight simply doesn't work as proven before and a split will only help to kill off more clubs that don't compete for trophies every year. I fear for the future of many mant clubs with these new proposals

[White Horse]

To me it says a lot about attitudes that they would talk about cutting down the premier rather than trying to grow the first division.

Says a lot about their ambition.

[nigel-harps1954]

The well known LoI aficionado , Eamon Dunphy, gets his oar in

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/other-soccer/bullsh-and-spin-eamon-dunphy-fumes-at-imminent-fai-report-into-irish-football-31565931.html

Had a great laugh heading down the M1 tonight listening to Game On. Dunphy kept going on about how the main footballing people in Ireland weren't asked about the report (i.e Brady, Giles and Dunphy), while Niall Quinn was consulted.

As for the report itself. I'm terribly disappointed.

[Real ale Madrid]

I've finally lost all faith in the LOI ever going anywhere. A ten team top flight simply doesn't work as proven before and a split will only help to kill off more clubs that don't compete for trophies every year. I fear for the future of many mant clubs with these new proposals

What didn't work with a 10 team premier as opposed to a 12 team premier. I haven't noticed any real difference.

I would have thought that with only 20 senior teams it makes more sense to split them 10 / 10. An 8 team division is a disaster.

[D24Saint]

It's a bit unbalanced alright but clubs will always prefer to be near the bottom of the premier fighting for survival than mid table in an expanded first division, more media exposure, better crowds , higher entrance fees etc.

[White Horse]

What didn't work with a 10 team premier as opposed to a 12 team premier. I haven't noticed any real difference.

I would have thought that with only 20 senior teams it makes more sense to split them 10 / 10. An 8 team division is a disaster.

The solution to the problem of the first division is not to screw up the premier division.

Do you really want to play Dundalk and Shamrock Rovers 5 times each season? Playing the same teams over and over again does nothing to create interest.

The FAI should reduce the costs of competing in the first division in order to encourage more clubs to participate.

[longfordjames]

how independent was this report

am i just paranoid or is there alot of FAI spin in it

[Real ale Madrid]

Do you really want to play Dundalk and Shamrock Rovers 5 times each season? Playing the same teams over and over again does nothing to create interest.
.

It will be 4 times instead of the now 3. Yes, that's going to be the straw that breaks the camels back alright.

[Mr A]

The thing is the FAI probably spoke with one voice, while even within clubs there are wildly disparate opinions of different matters affecting the league. So perhaps it became a bit weighted by the clubs drowning themselves out. But perhaps I am being very kind to a guy who has history working with the FAI previously.

One thing I would love to see is the clubs being brought together to discuss things on a more regular basis. Quarterly meetings, with themes, would make sense I think. This might help to build more consensus around some issues at least.

Unimpressed with the report overall, although Dunphy's outrage was extremely funny.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I don't have a problem with a lot of what this report suggests, but the defensiveness when it comes to criticism of the FAI is very strange - I don't even disagree on some of those points, but it doesn't exactly make it sound like an independent report - and the 10/10 idea read really poorly. I'm surprised that the possibility of getting more clubs in the league isn't addressed at all, not even in a "Here's why getting more clubs into the league is impossible right now and what could be done to change that" section. I mean, a 12/12 league is a reasonable aim in that regard, if enough changes are made to incentivise joining up. That's something that should be a priority, not quick fix restructuring for the sake of having the same number of teams in each division.

[Mr A]

Not sure why they bother inviting the PFAI on. Surely they could just programme a laptop to say "Give players way more money and longer contracts" and save money.

It was also quite funny that they interviewed Denis O'Connor who made no attempt to look beyond the implications for his own club fighting relegation.

[trevy]

There had to be something in the proposals for first division clubs as they've put up with the 8 team league for a number of seasons now and having 1 division of 12 clubs and another with 8 was ridiculous. We can see here fans complaining about a 10 team league some of them from clubs not long out of the first division so looks like self interest is to the fore again rather than something for everyone. Of course in an ideal world more clubs would want to join the league but that is not going to happen especially with the current first division format. The increases is prize money is to be welcomed too.

[Real ale Madrid]

Not sure why they bother inviting the PFAI on. Surely they could just programme a laptop to say "Give players way more money and longer contracts" and save money.
.

I think the Laptop only has a 9 month anti-virus software included in its contract. It has to be shut down for 3 months at the end of November.

[Duffman]

I just sighed at the Stephen McGuinness repeating that players are the biggest assets of clubs. Everyone aboard the mé féin bandwagon.

[Dalymountrower]

Reads like an opinion piece rather than a reasoned set of credible evidence based recommendations
Quite obvious vindication of his paymasters role in continuing to "run" the league.
Apart from Conroy`s own take on the "evidence" he has gathered ( quoting the Sunday Independent as a reliable source for example) he seems to rely on a statistically skewed survey in the appendices which appears to have been very popular with Shamrock Rovers fans and conversely unpopular with current Bohs fans ( apparently statistically insignificant), but amazingly popular with former Bohs fans ( a whopping 12% of respondees who used to follow the league).!!!!
In his recommendations for the ten club mid way split, he doesn`t seem to have had any regard to the attempts made in the 1990`s to run with that model and the fact that he is regurgitating/ pulling out of his posterior, the same unsuccessful model.
All we are missing is the recommendation to recruit "marquee" players to make the circus complete

The following example of Conroy declaring as fact whatever nonsense is being fed to him, without evidence,is neatly summed up in the extract below.

IEvery fine is completely under the control of the club whether on or off the pitch. While
accepting that every fan can’t be searched for banned matters and that the away fans will, on
occasion, deliberately attempt to get the home club fined, participation in the SSE Airtricity
League, like any other League, requires a level of fines and sanctions to be set.]"

[gufc2000]

It will be 4 times instead of the now 3. Yes, that's going to be the straw that breaks the camels back alright.
The teams vying for the Europa League place will play each other six times, and that's outside of cup matches and potential replays. Same will apply to the teams facing off in the Relegation Round Robin.

Well and good creating more 'occasions', but these occasions reduce the significance of matches between the teams during the regular season.

[Real ale Madrid]

The teams vying for the Europa League place will play each other six times, and that's outside of cup matches and potential replays. Same will apply to the teams facing off in the Relegation Round Robin.

Well and good creating more 'occasions', but these occasions reduce the significance of matches between the teams during the regular season.

I'm not sure the bit in bold is necessarily correct but playing a team 6 times in a season is not ideal alright.

[bluewhitearmy]

I don't like the idea of the prem going back to 10 but could live with it but the idea of a split is absolutely horrendous.

Would we actually end up with a 10 team First Division even or would one or two of the three clubs that were to go down just go bang?

[White Horse]

Would we actually end up with a 10 team First Division even or would one or two of the three clubs that were to go down just go bang?

Nail on the head.

[Acornvilla]

Very much doubt we'd be in any immediate trouble and disappear, but I'd imagine Munnely would be a bit sick and tired of pumping a few pound our way if we were to go back down. Lots of patience was shown to get Longford up in the 1st place. With even smaller prospects of ever getting back up again, a few clubs might find it very hard.

[Seagull]

It was also quite funny that they interviewed Denis O'Connor who made no attempt to look beyond the implications for his own club fighting relegation.

Where is the Denis O'Connor contribution, can't see it in there?

[Mr A]

That was on Soccer Republic last night, just a brief few words.

[dong]

Nail on the head.

That's certainly how it looks to me as well. Very dangerous territory.
Some reasonable ideas in there but nothing revolutionary.

[davidatrb]

Just on the prize money thing. League of Ireland prize money is very unfairly split out, especially when you consider the real prize is what you get for Champions League and Europa League qualification.

Also consider the English relegated clubs getting a parachute payment of about 20,000,000 per year means they are getting paid almost as much as the champions. No?

I think this could go a little way to explain the likes of Monaghan, Dublin City and Sporting Fingal all going bust shortly after winning promotion - its just not a level playing field for the promoted clubs.

2325

I also think that participating in the league of ireland is too expensive - the first division should be amateur - the like of Kilkenny City and Kildare County going bust because just not able to pay players.

I think there are too many league teams in Ireland for the size. England has something like 100 league teams and we have something like 20. England is more than 10 times the size of Ireland. I never would have said it before, and I cannot imagine anyone associated with the league backing this. But there seems to be a need for a cull. One elite division of no more than 10 teams. First division totally amateur - I don't know how this would work out for promotion and relegation though.... there may need to be some sort of disconnect like making the Premier division some sort of franchise with no promotion/relegation just invitational. Or else just live with having a few yo-yo teams like the Premier League has but introduce parachute payments to stop these yoyo teams from going bust.

Most important is INVESTMENT. I was reading about Bate who were 3-0 up on Roma today. The history of their league reads like ours reverting from winter football to summer football, to 16 teams to 17, back to 16, to 14 to 11 teams, to a split season etc etc. But no matter the structure BATE excelled domestically and in europe, and have made the group stages of the Champions League 7 times since 2008. It's not bad for a small country and don't see why that is not possible for Ireland whether its a 10 team premier split season or summer/winter football. Build some top stadiums and top elite training centres with top facilities to attract some decent talent from Africa and Brazil here while nurturing home talent in top of the art youth academies. All it takes is money.

I think investment will be rewarded, there is a huge market for soccer in Ireland, we are soccer crazy. Investment in the domestic game would surely also produce more talent that would help us on the international scene which is a big earner for the FAI. Also if investment meant regular Champions League group stages then the pay back from that would be huge.

Lessons could probably be learnt from other organisations as well. For example GAA and Rugby. GAA because there are less games but a bigger buzz about fewer games. For alot of teams (and im remembering my days following Kildare County) the season drags on with match days being heavy on expenses (paying players refs, garda, ambulance) and gate receipts dwindling the longer the season went on. Rugby because there are less professional teams (4 provinces) meaning the top teams can have a monopoly on the top players and actually be successful in Europe, centrally managed contracts means clubs cant nearly go bust (Shelbourne, Shamrock Rovers 2003) competing over bigger and bigger wages. Football fans in Ireland seem to look at Rugby and GAA in particular as pests, as competition/rivals and are loathe to accept whenever the other associations do something good!

But I think it is mostly about money. That's all I have to say - just some random opinions.

[ger121]

I did like the idea of super game days in the Aviva. God knows how it would work if it was 4 sets of fans who would need to be segregated but I'm sure it can be done.
Said it on Twitter, the report is full of ideas but no numbers in terms of what increased prize funds, marketing budgets or investment needed to grow the league to the levels they say are possible.

[Charlie Darwin]

It will be 4 times instead of the now 3. Yes, that's going to be the straw that breaks the camels back alright.
And you'd play some teams three times at home and others once.

[outspoken]

I did like the idea of super game days in the Aviva. God knows how it would work if it was 4 sets of fans who would need to be segregated but I'm sure it can be done.
Said it on Twitter, the report is full of ideas but no numbers in terms of what increased prize funds, marketing budgets or investment needed to grow the league to the levels they say are possible.

Yep I've been saying for years and years a super LOI weekend at the Aviva is exactly what is needed to showcase the league on a grand stage outside of cup finals once a year. Charge everyone a fiver in, promote the heck out of it and there's no reason you wouldn't have a massive gate but will the FAI be willing to cover the expenses of running such an event, there ya go

[brendy_éire]

Yep I've been saying for years and years a super LOI weekend at the Aviva is exactly what is needed to showcase the league on a grand stage outside of cup finals once a year.

I like the idea, but some teams would be losing out on home advantage. It would have to be restricted to matches where the home team is from Dublin. Would Dublin teams agree to that?
If we were to keep the 12 team Premier, the spare home/away match could be held at Lansdowne, which would seem fairer. Six games over two days, €10 for a weekend pass, would be great craic.

[colonelwest]

Yep I've been saying for years and years a super LOI weekend at the Aviva is exactly what is needed to showcase the league on a grand stage outside of cup finals once a year. Charge everyone a fiver in, promote the heck out of it and there's no reason you wouldn't have a massive gate but will the FAI be willing to cover the expenses of running such an event, there ya go


2 games on a Saturday, 2 games on a Sunday either just before or after the summer break in June or on a weekend there's no GAA (or major GAA) on, broadcast all 4 games on RTE, 13:30 and 16:00 kick off times, no English football to compete with.

Outside broadcast costs for RTE will be feck all as Landsdowne is superbly setup up and it's only down the road. Whether the pitch would hold up to 2 days and 4 games is another question but it would still be grand compared to the woes of most pitches in the league at different stages of the season. Basically a good old fashioned summer junior football blitz. €20 a ticket per day that includes both games, family of 4 for €40 (basically kids go free) or a two day ticket for €35 or something along those lines.

Other option imo would be to hold the play offs for the last Euro spot the week before the cup final in Landsdowne. The cup final should always be the last game of the season!

[White Horse]

I like the idea, but some teams would be losing out on home advantage. It would have to be restricted to matches where the home team is from Dublin. Would Dublin teams agree to that?
If we were to keep the 12 team Premier, the spare home/away match could be held at Lansdowne, which would seem fairer. Six games over two days, €10 for a weekend pass, would be great craic.

Why does anyone think that provincial cubs would bring a big crowd to the Aviva for an away league match?

You could hold a big Dublin derby match there, but who would want to yield home advantage?

The showpiece at the Aviva is the FAI cup final.

[outspoken]

2 games on a Saturday, 2 games on a Sunday either just before or after the summer break in June or on a weekend there's no GAA (or major GAA) on, broadcast all 4 games on RTE, 13:30 and 16:00 kick off times, no English football to compete with.

Outside broadcast costs for RTE will be feck all as Landsdowne is superbly setup up and it's only down the road. Whether the pitch would hold up to 2 days and 4 games is another question but it would still be grand compared to the woes of most pitches in the league at different stages of the season. Basically a good old fashioned summer junior football blitz. €20 a ticket per day that includes both games, family of 4 for €40 (basically kids go free) or a two day ticket for €35 or something along those lines.

Other option imo would be to hold the play offs for the last Euro spot the week before the cup final in Landsdowne. The cup final should always be the last game of the season!

Pitch would hold up no problem didn't they play that many games the time of the dublin super cup and wasn't a mark left on it.

[Dodge]

The only way this would work is if it's a tenner in and drink is allowed (at the seats). It's the only way fans will stay. Otherwise most will go home after their own game (or miss the opening 2 for their game). Why would they stay? "to promote the league"? Ha

[SeanDMRooney]

The only way this would work is if it's a tenner in and drink is allowed (at the seats). It's the only way fans will stay. Otherwise most will go home after their own game (or miss the opening 2 for their game). Why would they stay? "to promote the league"? Ha

yeah because the attendance at the Magic Weekend for the Super League in the UK hasnt been anything to write home about

[Dodge]

They're allowed drink at rugby league. So if that's allowed, we're good to go

[dundalkfc10]

No mention of increasing prize money or decreasing affiliation fees I'm assuming? Or any suggestions that will cost the FAI any more money?

Our scumbag element, Rovers, Bohs and Shels scumbag fans on the one day on the Aviva.

Jesus, they would need some gardai on duty unfortunately

[nigel-harps1954]

http://www.the42.ie/league-of-ireland-conroy-report-2359945-Sep2015/

John O'Sullivans response to the Conroy Report and what he'd change in the league.

[White Horse]

http://www.the42.ie/league-of-ireland-conroy-report-2359945-Sep2015/

John O'Sullivans response to the Conroy Report and what he'd change in the league.

He can feck off if he thinks that the FAI can get their hands on Dundalk's European money.

We don't have a council to build us a stadium. We have no sugar daddy.

Our European prize money is ring-fenced for the redevelopment of Oriel Park.

[eelmonster]

He can feck off if he thinks that the FAI can get their hands on Dundalk's European money.

We don't have a council to build us a stadium. We have no sugar daddy.

Our European prize money is ring-fenced for the redevelopment of Oriel Park.


Totally agree WH (until we fail to qualify for Europe, then I want some of someone else's hard-earned money).

[sullanefc]

My own thoughts:

1. Independent Consultation me ar$e

How can a former FAI consultant be called independent? The FAI have gotten off fairly lightly in this and from listening to him, he justs sounds like an FAI mouthpiece.

2. No to a 10 team league

Chopping and changing the structure of the league on its own will not solve the ills of the league but switching back to a 10 team league will only make things worse IMO. People say you will play the big teams more often but there was a major problem with over familiarity last time and the big games just aren't as big anymore. Especially when you draw the same teams in cups and when games are postponed. You will get the absurd situation of meeting the same team 3 times in a short space of time.

What we should be trying to do is encouraging more teams into the 1st div. Encourage the likes of Mons, Kildare and Kilkenny back in. Encourage the Kerry league and similar in. They should follow the Wexford model of keeping things affordable. And to also make it affordable it should be regionalised and the extortionate affiliation fees should be reduced for 1st div clubs.

3. Yes to increased sponsorship and prize money.

While it seems to be very aspirational, this should be pushed. The report says that it costs the FAI more money to run the league than it takes in but there needs to be more transparency in TV and sponsorship incomes and these should be used to subsidise affiliation fees for 1st div clubs rather than the current poker game scenario.

4. Yes to focussing on infrastructure.

Deals like the new CCFC training centre are welcome. There should be more of this but we need to focus on stadium improvements also.

5. Yes to player marketing.

I've always felt that this should be done. Richie Towell is the poster boy at the moment. Even non LOI fans know who he is. But there should be more of this to make LOI more marketable. I remember in our glory years that non LOI fans knew who Georgie, Flynnie and Kearney were. It was great.



Anyway, my 2 cents. Sorry for long post.

[wonder88]

Players are still paid too much in the league of Ireland for the crowds they bring in. Totally disagree with the idea that professional players are the most important part of the league. It is club members/fans for me. Start at this point, like the GAA was before Dónal Óg.
Good piece in the Irish Times where Malone outlines some of the targets there was in the last report, average crowds at matches for example. A 3k average attendance for Premier and 1k for 1st could be achievable if clubs could connect more with their communities and facilities/matchday experience improved. By the way the league didn't reach, or move any closer to the targets set out in genesis in relation to crowds.

[Dodge]

5. Yes to player marketing.
I've always felt that this should be done. Richie Towell is the poster boy at the moment. Even non LOI fans know who he is. But there should be more of this to make LOI more marketable. I remember in our glory years that non LOI fans knew who Georgie, Flynnie and Kearney were. It was great.


Players won't do it for free*, and clubs already think they're paying them too much to play. They don't want to pay them to star in ad campaigns

*You'll get some players who are very generous with their time and will turn up for every school, hospital visit etc.

[oriel]

Just on the league winning prize money and also CL for previous period.

Considering its now 100k for winning the league but up to 575k min from CL (total of 675K min), how does this compare to say when Bohs won the league in 2008, did they get 280k from the league, if so what was their CL min? I'd like to see the total figure in comparison to today.

Overall though, the prize money needs to be increased significantly for all clubs, and a new and fairer TV deal needs to be negotiated, I would say something like 5k for the home side and 1k for an away side would seem reasonable?

The urgent improvement in facilities should have been better emphasized in the report, and maybe a scheme whereby if clubs raise 50k, the FAI or Govt Sports Body matches it, or more, then the money is kept under a protected account, to be only used on ground improvements.

10 team Leagues is not the way forward either.

[osarusan]

Am I the only one who wonders whether the FAI actually get the 19k affiliation fee from all clubs each season?

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

My own thoughts:

1. Independent Consultation me ar$e

How can a former FAI consultant be called independent? The FAI have gotten off fairly lightly in this and from listening to him, he justs sounds like an FAI mouthpiece.

2. No to a 10 team league

Chopping and changing the structure of the league on its own will not solve the ills of the league but switching back to a 10 team league will only make things worse IMO. People say you will play the big teams more often but there was a major problem with over familiarity last time and the big games just aren't as big anymore. Especially when you draw the same teams in cups and when games are postponed. You will get the absurd situation of meeting the same team 3 times in a short space of time.

What we should be trying to do is encouraging more teams into the 1st div. Encourage the likes of Mons, Kildare and Kilkenny back in. Encourage the Kerry league and similar in. They should follow the Wexford model of keeping things affordable. And to also make it affordable it should be regionalised and the extortionate affiliation fees should be reduced for 1st div clubs.

3. Yes to increased sponsorship and prize money.

While it seems to be very aspirational, this should be pushed. The report says that it costs the FAI more money to run the league than it takes in but there needs to be more transparency in TV and sponsorship incomes and these should be used to subsidise affiliation fees for 1st div clubs rather than the current poker game scenario.

4. Yes to focussing on infrastructure.

Deals like the new CCFC training centre are welcome. There should be more of this but we need to focus on stadium improvements also.

5. Yes to player marketing.

I've always felt that this should be done. Richie Towell is the poster boy at the moment. Even non LOI fans know who he is. But there should be more of this to make LOI more marketable. I remember in our glory years that non LOI fans knew who Georgie, Flynnie and Kearney were. It was great.



Anyway, my 2 cents. Sorry for long post.

While I agree with this until we manage to get teams into Division 1 I just don't see how an 8 team league at that level is doing anyone any good down there (hopefully we won't be finding out next season). If there are only 20 teams then I think it has to be a 10/10 split. It's just the teams at the top that need to be looked after.

[Trainee]

Would love to see players paid a small basic wage & % of seaon ticket & gate money. The better they play & the more promotion activitives they do the bigger the crowd so the more they earn. Unfortunately this will never work for a various reasons.

One thing the report doesnt even mention things like increase media coverage in papers, radio etc & fails to deal with the issuse of live EPL games on Friday nights which will have a huge effect on attendances.

[Mr A]

Am I the only one who wonders whether the FAI actually get the 19k affiliation fee from all clubs each season?

Well prize money just gets deducted from it anyway. So if you finish high enough and don't incur too many fines you might end up ahead. As for clubs that are behind.. hard to know. Does it count as a football debt at licensing time?

[bluewhitearmy]

While I agree with this until we manage to get teams into Division 1 I just don't see how an 8 team league at that level is doing anyone any good down there (hopefully we won't be finding out next season). If there are only 20 teams then I think it has to be a 10/10 split. It's just the teams at the top that need to be looked after.

The premier shouldn't be hurt to help the first division imo. And there is no guarantee at all it would even end up 10/10 whos to say teams that wen't down won't just go bust without the money from prem and we end up with a 10/8 split or something like that.

[Mr A]

If one of your divisions is likely to kill clubs that end up in it then that's the central problem for your league in my opinion. Although clubs have historically probably been probably more likely to die at the top level.

So I guess the answer is obvious- we shouldn't have a 16/18 premier, we should have a 16/18 first instead.

[nigel-harps1954]

Regarding league structure, my greatest annoyance of the entire report is that there was no recommendation to genuinely attempt to put a pyramid structure of sorts into place. I had really hoped Conroy would suggest the the FAI take football in this country by the balls and put shape on it from top to bottom.

We'd not be having the discussion of 'not enough teams' again, and there'd be a constant supply of teams going through promotion and relegation right throughout the country.

We'd easily be able to transfer to a 16 team Premier and 10 team First Division North/South in the next ten years if the right structures were put in place from top to bottom.