Ireland V Isreal Protest

[patsh]

Does anybody know this?
If certain Israelis use the bible as "proof", or whatever appropriate word should be used, that they "own" the Palestine area, do they also believe in "creationism" and ignore evolution?

[green goblin]

Does anybody know this?
If certain Israelis use the bible as "proof", or whatever appropriate word should be used, that they "own" the Palestine area, do they also believe in "creationism" and ignore evolution?
Hmmm. I actually don't know the answer to this one. It's never crossed my mind before.
I'm guessing that your hardcore orthodox Jew is as literal as your average hardcore Christian fundamentalist on this issue. By the same token, my assumption is that your average liberal Jew will be as open minded as your average liberal Christian. And your average secular Jew doesn't give a flying one, much as your average secular gentile doesn't.
You're right to say "certain Israelis" here, though patsh.
Why do you ask?

[patsh]

You're right to say "certain Israelis" here, though patsh.
Why do you ask?Just talking about the bible got me thinking about it. I just wondered if certain Jews think everything in the bible is absolutely true, like some Christian churches do.

[1 9 2 8]

I remember when we played Serbia (Yugoslavia) a few years back around the time of the war in Kosovo the Ireland fans booed there anthem so I see no reason why not to boo Israel’s because they have carried out just as much atrocities as the Serb’s if more

[Éanna]

But your reference to Israeli nazis was particularly insensitive and breathtakingly ignorant of their history and plight.
If they behave like Nazis, call them Nazis. Warmongers, war criminals, murderers, genocidal maniacs. What about their lebensraum policy against the palestinians, pushing further to the east, to provide more land for "gods" people? They are every bit Nazis, and its sickeningly ironic to think that Israel was set up because the world felt guilty about WW2, now they've gone and done the same thing to another group of people.

[anto eile]

[QUOTE=anto eile]...as for every country in the middle east trying to exterminate israel..ever wondered why?because israel is an agressor,which has stolen land from all its neighbouring countries,not just from the palestinians.it continually seizes every chance to expand its borders.its not a democracy,because a democratic state protects the rights of the minority,and in the zionist regimes case it doesnt do that.

QUOTE]


That's right, because no Arab nation can ever be accused of being an aggressor, stealing land from its neighbouring countries, siezing chances extend its borders, of being undemocratic, existing to protect the rights of the minority in power, can they? :rolleyes: Especially not the Saudis, Kuwaitis, Iranians, Iraqi's...
The reasons you state are perfectly valid for accusing the state of Israel of behaving in a manner that should garner deep condemnation from the international community, but do not even come close to explaining the deep ingrained racism, fear and hatred going back thousands of years on both sides. It's far more complicated than that, sadly.
Oh yes, and your stuff about the bible is just bobbins. Also, the church wasn't Catholic when the council decided on which books were canon and which were heretical, it was just the church. That didn't come until 700 years later. Stop watching the Discovery channel. It'll rot your brain. ;)

arab nations being aggressive doesnt excuse israeli aggression.
the bible stuff is not "bobbins" ,whetever the fluck that is.the bible is full of sh!t,so to use it as evidence that one has a right to rob land from a people who had been there for thousands of years is stupid. so an american christian born and bred lets say in new jersey, converts to judaism to marry his fiance suddenly has the right to go to palestine and rob land from as many arabs as he like because it says so in the bible????
your point about the church/bible etc is invalid. the church originally,and now esp the catholic church still select which gospels they want to consider sacred,simply because it fits their agenda.
and i dont know what the discovery channel has to do with any of this you condascending prikc

[anto eile]

"Quick! Withdraw from the occupied territories at once! We must win the respect of Irish football fans at all costs!" :rolleyes: Riiiiight. :confused:
The holding up of the Palestinian flag makes your point, quite adequately. Don't for a second, however, think that any shot on Israeli TV will show any of you doing it.
By jeering and booing another nations anthem you only bring all Irish people down- all of us. You, me, your parents, all of us. It's one thing to make a political point, another to show a complete lack of respect for an entire nation. Sharon's a madman leading a government of madmen on an insane course of action that defies reason and morality. No argument there. It doesn't mean it's therefore OK to insult every Israeli on the planet.

if we played south africa during apartheid it would have been right to boo the anthem.it also would have been right to boo nazi germanys anthem.so its right to boo apartheid nazi israels anthem.

as for bringing us down,get real.what id consider an insult is irish people respecting the flag and anthem of a nation that actively promotes genocide

[anto eile]

I take it you hate the Bible, you hate the Jews, you hate Israel blah blah blah. I think Green Goblin has done an excellent response - noone is condoning what has happened to Palestinians, but the problems are much deeper than the usual 'Arabs are great, Jews and Christians and Americans are terrible' stuff that's so trendy these days.

But your reference to Israeli nazis was particularly insensitive and breathtakingly ignorant of their history and plight.

no its not ignorant.youre ignorant to even attempt to rationalize israle by reffering to the holocaust.in 50 years time we could easily look back on the middle east and be talking of the holocaust of the palestinians.
i dont love or hate anyone for simply being arab,israeli or jewish or christian.remember that the palestinian christians are being oppressed/murdered as much as arab palestinians.but i WILL hate someone if they excuse/support genocide murder and oppression,and that is the state of israel
i dont hate the bible, i just think its a load of crap,just like everything else the church says (ie as its in the enws a lot: gay marriage is a sin youl go to hell if your gay.but if god created gays then he made a mistake,but god is infallible!and the pope is infallible but he said the world was round before!nonsense all of it).its a carefully selected selection of fairy tales half truths blatant lies and downright propaganda.
as for fobbing off "i hate america" as being trendy,thats bull. wonder why so many people hate america?take a look at a history book,their human rights record is appalling.supporting right wing fascist dictators/regimes all over the world , overthrowing legitimate democratically elected governments.and not just during the colld war either.they did it last year in venezuela (in fact american inteference in venezuela is a reason for the exorbitant price of oil at the moment,iraq has nothing to do with it).america is NOT a good guy,and hasnt been since 1945.its an immperialist fascist power

[1 9 2 8]

If they behave like Nazis, call them Nazis. Warmongers, war criminals, murderers, genocidal maniacs. What about their lebensraum policy against the palestinians, pushing further to the east, to provide more land for "gods" people? They are every bit Nazis, and its sickeningly ironic to think that Israel was set up because the world felt guilty about WW2, now they've gone and done the same thing to another group of people. I couldn't put it better myself

[dancinpants]

If yer going with a pile of mates of the same opinion, take yer flag, turn your back when the anthems on and don't boo. Coz if yer on your own with yer back turned you'll look a right tw@t if the camera catches you!!!

[green goblin]

arab nations being aggressive doesnt excuse israeli aggression.
the bible stuff is not "bobbins" ,whetever the fluck that is.the bible is full of sh!t,so to use it as evidence that one has a right to rob land from a people who had been there for thousands of years is stupid. so an american christian born and bred lets say in new jersey, converts to judaism to marry his fiance suddenly has the right to go to palestine and rob land from as many arabs as he like because it says so in the bible????
your point about the church/bible etc is invalid. the church originally,and now esp the catholic church still select which gospels they want to consider sacred,simply because it fits their agenda.
and i dont know what the discovery channel has to do with any of this you condascending prikc

Arab nations being aggressive doesn't excuse israeli aggression. Correct. Never said it did, and can't think why you assume I did :confused: .

The example of the Jewish guy from New jersey is also correct. It's an abhorance that such a person could oust someone from their homeland througha spurious interpretation of the Old Testament. Again, no argument there.

The point about the church... Not quite sure where you're coming from. The original church councils debated which books could be considered authentic and which were heretical, and rightly so. Bible scholars still do this to this date, and there is still debate over which books should and should not be included. Protestant bibles are shorter than their Catholic counterparts, for example. Not sure what agenda you're talking about- But then, I'm not a Catholic.

As for the Discovery Channel reference... the use of the wink wink icon is meant to denote a certain good natured cheekiness, that the sentence preceding it was not meant to be taken as entirely serious, and thus had a humourous subtext...Or was that a patronising thing to point out? ;) ;).

As for condescending prikcishness, accurate though it may be, please read Adam's announcement on personal attacks. He has threatened to shut the whole show down. :(

[Aberdonian Stu]

Again on the booing it gives off the wrong message, lowers us to the level of thugs, and weakens the overall protest that people are trying to make.

Personally I back the two-state solution and most polls show that a majority of both Palestinian and Israeli civilians back some form of two-state solution (obviously with different views on border size but not in the same league as Hamas and the more extreme Likudniks who want one state ruled by one side, Likudniks is, I think, actually the correct term not an insult).

To say either side is without blood on its hands is foolish, and while one might be worse than the other we are still measuring them by the size and brutality of body counts. Not exactly the best way to paint an angel (sorry but given all the religious references in this thread I had to get one in). It is the people on both sides who have suffered and thus any decisions any of us make should bear that in mind. If we feel a need to protest let us do it with some dignity and not like we are simply out for blood for in the end such an act almost implies a desire to perpetuate the problems these people have.

[Partizan]

:D :D

Now there is one angry young man. Smash the evil Yankee Empire. Everyone hates America. The Bible is bunk.

As for ignorance, it's 'Israel' not 'israle'. You'd have found out that much on the Discovery Channel anyway...

Good to see that Zionist fascism is alive and well down in ****. :D

What next, ****ies will attack Waterford on the spurious interpretation of he Bible that Waterford is their homeland.

[green goblin]

What next, ****ies will attack Waterford on the spurious interpretation of he Bible that Waterford is their homeland.

But that's OK, because the place would be empty, as you'll all have left the county to go back to Norway and reclaim the land that's your Viking birthright. :D

[green goblin]

If they behave like Nazis, call them Nazis. Warmongers, war criminals, murderers, genocidal maniacs. What about their lebensraum policy against the palestinians, pushing further to the east, to provide more land for "gods" people? They are every bit Nazis, and its sickeningly ironic to think that Israel was set up because the world felt guilty about WW2, now they've gone and done the same thing to another group of people.

"The great lesson of history is that we learn nothing from history". The popular assumption is always that because of their apalling treatment in the 20th century, the Israelis of all people would be sympathic to the plight of others and would understand the folly of war-whereas it certainly seems that instead their hearts have become hardened by the experience.

[Partizan]

But that's OK, because the place would be empty, as you'll all have left the county to go back to Norway and reclaim the land that's your Viking birthright. :D

UGA, UGA, OO OO. ;)

[Poor Student]

I remember when we played Serbia (Yugoslavia) a few years back around the time of the war in Kosovo the Ireland fans booed there anthem so I see no reason why not to boo Israel’s because they have carried out just as much atrocities as the Serb’s if more

And did we boo Albania for the treatment of Serbs at the hands of Albanians in Kosovo since the NATO bombings there? The same thing we ignored prior to Yugoslavia's invervention (albeit sickeningly brutal). I'd just keep quiet about things we don't understand and leave it to some other medium and not hijack a football match.

[Aberdonian Stu]

On a similar tone I have no doubt that there sadly will be booing at the game and that there is a high likelihood that we will get fined and rightly so. It is not an honourable way to protest an anthem.

[Poor Student]

I have a feeling,no matter what is said on here.....rightly or wrongly,some sort of protest will happen......just remains to see how many are involved & what form it takes.

Regardless of what we all feel re.Israel,surely the point they have to play in Europe,instead of their geographical location of Asia(Same applies to Turkey & Kazakstan!) is er,testament :o ,to their position in the world & 'popularity' with their neighbours!

Well 3% of Turkey is in European and historically they have been a political actor in Europe only in the 1800's and late I think they were driven back so far towards Asia. I don't get the Kazakhstan thing at all. I have read an improving economy lead UEFA to decide to take them in. They also have a big ethnic group of Russians and Germans but I never heard anything about it being due to their popularity with their neighbours.

[sadloserkid]

I think it's important to seperate anti-Israeli sentiment from anti-Jewish sentiment. I personally feel that Israel is the biggest excuse for a nation on our planet, that there was no practical reason for it's creation. As somebody alluded to above it would be like a shower of Irish people laying claim to some fjord in Norway. Or while we're at it the good citizens of Rome might like to annex the lands held by the Roman Empire?

Israel operates as an extremely right-wing country. It's not an exaggeration to apply the word fascist to their existence. The anti-Jewish card is played regularly by Israeli supporters (not here to be fair) to make the middle class squirm a bit and shy away from the whole issue for fear of not looking PC. If somebody says 'I can't stand Israel,' it does not make them anti-Jewish. This perception probably has nothing at all to do with religion in fact but with the clearly unjust supression of the Palestinian people.

And to prove I'm not anti-Jewish and in a vague attempt to both lighten and lower the tone of this discussion I'm going to start a list of excellent jews! :D

1. Albert Einstein
2. Gene Simmons
3. Jerry Seinfeld
4. Natalie Portman
5. Krusty the Clown

Anybody wanna continue? ;)

[green goblin]

And to prove I'm not anti-Jewish and in a vague attempt to both lighten and lower the tone of this discussion I'm going to start a list of excellent jews! :D

1. Albert Einstein
2. Gene Simmons
3. Jerry Seinfeld
4. Natalie Portman
5. Krusty the Clown

Anybody wanna continue? ;)

1. Bob Dylan.
2. Ali G.
3. Marc Bolan
4. Marcel Proust
5. Harrison Ford

Next? :)

[anto eile]

kazakhxtan resigned from asian football confederation to join uefa simply because the standard was better in europe afaik. though i dont see what the logic is in having a country which borders mongolia playing in the uefa zone.imagine a world cup qualifier with kazakhstan playing iceland..theyd quite literally have to travel half the circumference of the planet theyre that far away.
at least turkey is partly in europe,but everything about them being a political actor in europe for hundreds of years is true, its always been to a detrimental effect,theyre as much to blame for world war one as anyone else
israel was shunned by its arab neighbours years ago,so couldnt compete in asia.they had to compete in oceania for a while before uefa took them in because asia was a no-go,and oceania was a ridiculous inconvenience.though in fairness they should be boycotted by uefa countries just like south africa sporting teams were shunned

[anto eile]

:D :D

Now there is one angry young man. Smash the evil Yankee Empire. Everyone hates America. The Bible is bunk.

As for ignorance, it's 'Israel' not 'israle'. You'd have found out that much on the Discovery Channel anyway...

dear oh dear oh dear.. you clinched the argument alright by pointing out a spelling error,good man :rolleyes:

im not angry
anger has nothing to with the facts;
history tells us the USA is a modern imperialist force,generally for bad:fact
many people hate america for just reasons:fact
the bible is as relevant as harry potter

[anto eile]

Again, I think the references to 'nazis' and 'lebensraum' suggest you have no wish to understand the plight of the Jews. The comparisons are not valid either, unless you have evidence of some 'Final Solution' type proposal by the Jews to systematically kill all Palestinians.

the fact they day-by-day expand their borders into palestine.
the wall theyr building to cut palestinians off from their farmland,neighbours,homes,family etc

[Poor Student]

1. Bob Dylan.
2. Ali G.
3. Marc Bolan
4. Marcel Proust
5. Harrison Ford

Next? :)

1. Kirk Douglas (not his real name)
2. William Shatner

[anto eile]

land grabbing is planned and systematic and results in the murder/salughter of palestinians. its a direct consequence whether the consequences themselves are planned or not.so thats good enough for me to consider it a "final solution" type of policy

[Pat O' Banton]

land grabbing is planned and systematic and results in the murder/salughter of palestinians. its a direct consequence whether the consequences themselves are planned or not.so thats good enough for me to consider it a "final solution" type of policy

Now if were asking if Israel amounts to a genocidely regime - which appears to be implied in the some of the posts above, it should be remembered that genocide does not soley mean the intention to wipe out an entire race or religious grouping. It simply means to attempt to wipe part of a group or religion from part of the world with the intention that they are unable to exist there ever again. This can involve mass murder, it is after all the the most final way of doing this, but it can also involve forced deportation and other ways of ensuring this.

[Metrostars]

1. Kirk Douglas (not his real name)
2. William Shatner

Steven Spielberg
Daniel Day-Lewis
Dustin Hoffman
Peter Sellers
Mark Knopfler
Harvey Keitel
Michael Landon
Joel & Ethan Coen
Neil Simon
Michael Dell
Billy Joel
Paul Newman
Kevin Kline
George Burns
Paul Simon

[green goblin]

Stan Lee (Co creator Spiderman, X-Men, Fantastic 4, Hulk)
Jack Kirby (Co-creator Fantastic 4, Captain America, Hulk)
Jerry Siegel (Co-creator Superman)
Jo Schuster (Co-creator Superman)
Jerry Robinson (co-creator The Joker)
Will Eisner (Creator The Spirit)
Joe Simon (Co-creator Captain America).
Joe Kubert (Co-creator Sgt Rock)
Too many more to mention here. All cool as :cool:

[Pat O' Banton]

Marx
Trotsky
Lenin had Jewish blood and wife, indeed most of the central committee od=f the Bolshevik party expect Stalin

[Poor Student]

Now if were asking if Israel amounts to a genocidely regime - which appears to be implied in the some of the posts above, it should be remembered that genocide does not soley mean the intention to wipe out an entire race or religious grouping. It simply means to attempt to wipe part of a group or religion from part of the world with the intention that they are unable to exist there ever again. This can involve mass murder, it is after all the the most final way of doing this, but it can also involve forced deportation and other ways of ensuring this.

That's something our opponents this week indulged in both recently and in the second world war and their flag and jersey bear symbolism to this. They are currently employing an aggressive campaign against our EU counterparts of Slovenia in a border dispute blocking them into their small bay yet I don't see anyone bothering to protest against them.

[Closed Account 2]

kazakhxtan resigned from asian football confederation to join uefa simply because the standard was better in europe afaik. though i dont see what the logic is in having a country which borders mongolia playing in the uefa zone.

Well there goes Russia, you must mean Russia right ? As Mongolia only borders China (who are in the Asian Qualifiers) and Russia... at least unless there have been some very recent border changes in the region, too recent to make it onto the CIA's online fact book (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mg.html):-

Land boundaries:
total: 8,220 km
border countries: China 4,677 km, Russia 3,543 km

Or thelonely planet (http://www.lonelyplanet.com/mapshells/north_east_asia/mongolia/mongolia.htm) guide which shows the same.


And did we boo Albania for the treatment of Serbs at the hands of Albanians in Kosovo since the NATO bombings there? The same thing we ignored prior to Yugoslavia's invervention (albeit sickeningly brutal). I'd just keep quiet about things we don't understand and leave it to some other medium and not hijack a football match.

Exactly, but sadly many people seem to think the Serbs deserve(d) it.. Even if these people are happy to write off the Serbs being attacked, its hard to justify what the Albanians are doing to the Roma/Gypsies. They’re being hounded out and hunted down by Albanian mobs, and they took no part in the Yugoslav Army intervention in Kosovo from the mid 90s to 99. Very touching of the Albanians, NATO bombs Serbia into becoming the poorest country in Europe, to "liberate" the Kosovar Albanians and now they want NATO troops out so basically they can butcher the Serbs and Roma left in Kosovo. :mad: :mad: Some long and hard questions need to be asked there!


Now if were asking if Israel amounts to a genocidely regime - which appears to be implied in the some of the posts above, it should be remembered that genocide does not soley mean the intention to wipe out an entire race or religious grouping. It simply means to attempt to wipe part of a group or religion from part of the world with the intention that they are unable to exist there ever again. This can involve mass murder, it is after all the the most final way of doing this...

And that is exactly what the Turks did to Armenians after WWI. Their mentality was, if you kill all the people who inhabit the land you want, then its impossible for them to get it back and their killing of 1 - 1.5 million Armenians has largely been ignored by the international community, who are all too happy to by the line put out by past and current Turkish Government(s) that it was "all an accident", and "the Armenians themselves are really to blame". Hiter himself made the comparason with the Armenian Genocide and the holocaust, saying on the eve of his invasion of Poland and the unleashing of his sinister extermination plans, "'Who today, remembers the extermination of the Armenians?''. Amazing then, that this issue has been so ignored and neglected, and on the eve of joining the EU the current Turkish Government is allowed to fob everyone off with its denials.

I dare say there was hardly a whimper of protest when the Turkish team played at LR in last year or in the playoff a few years back? I guess if youre like the Armenians (or East Timorese for that matter) and dont have Saudi etc money, or own various TV networks in North America to publicise your plight then all is forgotton!

If people want to protest about the illegal occupation of Gaza etc, good, go for it by all means... but next time Turkey play at LR spare a thought for the Armenians and consider this map showing the boundaries of Armenia set out and signed (http://www.cilicia.com/pics/post/wilsonian.jpg) by Woodrow Wilson at Versailles and formalised at Severes... the land occupied is approx three times the size of Israel + Palestine, only most of its true inhabitants have been killed.

[Neish]

I see peoples point about polictics and footie shouldn't mix. Was jus gaiging what the response would be.

[anto eile]

ok my mongolian geography is a bit rusty.so i take that comment back

[sadloserkid]

I see peoples point about polictics and footie shouldn't mix. Was jus gaiging what the response would be.

I disagree, I mean what are we going to say next, racism is a political/cultural/social isue so that shouldn't be discussed either?

As melodramatic as it will sound, evil only thrives when people ignore it and the oppression of the Palestinian people by Israel is evil. Ask the parents of any of the kids shot while walking to school.

And like I said, there have been anti-Israeli protests at football matches before in Denmark.

Similarly the Swiss or Norwegian players unveiled a banner protesting at Chirac's nuclear testing in some Island in the Pacific (New Caledonia?) not long ago as well.

As the most popular sport in the world football will always be in a position to make a stand on relevant issues. Why shouldn't it? If Bono can blather on about third world debt to further his own career then I see nothing wrong with an organised, respectful, peaceful protest at a football match.

[green goblin]

I see nothing wrong with an organised, respectful, peaceful protest at a football match.

Absolutely agree.
Everyone holding up a Palestinian flag when they play their anthem will do a far better job in than the kind of booing and jeering that some people here seem to be proposing.
That kind of thing draws attention away from the villains (Israel) and transfers it onto us. The story in the papers then becomes not one about Israel and what it's doing to the Palestinias (Which was the point of the protest, D'oh!) but becomes about Ireland and how they're against the Jews (Untrue anyway).