Gibraltar (H) - Sat, 11th Oct. / Germany (A) - Tues, 14th Oct.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Stokes?

He's been pretty awful for Celtic in recent times, he might score v. the other lot, but Germany? Only if Beckenbauer is playing...

[Stuttgart88]

Kingdom, well made points.

I'm just not sure Stokes is on good enough form right now. I think we must put pressure on high up the pitch, but equally we probably need two deeper lying midfielders. Whelan is nailed on and Meyler is likely to start RB, meaning it's between Gibson and Hendrick for CM.

Hoolahan did some great pressing in advanced positions against Italy, one time dispossessing a CB setting up Long for a one on one.

I think Stokes is better suited to coming in from the right rather than playing centrally. I think Long is probably the guy to play in the central role.

McGeady should be nailed on too, so it's between McClean and Pilkington for the other wide berth. Quinn is an option too if O'Neill wants to keep things tight and have an ankle biter out there. Quinn could play centrally as well as left side.

It'll be really interesting to see how O'Neill approaches this. After a year of watching him we really know nothing about his approach other than that it was definitely very Trap like in Tbilisi.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'd have Stokes out wide before I have him up top on his own. Physically, I don't think he has what it takes to hold the ball up while he waits for players to come and support him, but his crossing and link play are generally quite good which would lend itself to the wide attacker role.

[ArdeeBhoy]

We really would have to be desperate to have Stokes on the park v. Germany...anyone else, but he's just not good enough. Even McGeady, Walters, Brady are miles ahead of him just now.

And it's still really all about Scotland.
That pressing game might work for a while, but you forget how lethal the Germans are on the break. Assuming we put them under pressure in the first place...

[Stuttgart88]

I can't see O'Neill starting Brady. I really really hope Walters isn't seen as a wide option. He should only be considered as a front man and as part of a pairing, not a lone striker.

aB, we're damned if we do, damned if we don't, aren't we? I think we should give Germany a right go, while keeping disciple. At the very least it'll be a dry run for the November game where we will also need to play an assertive game.

[geysir]

We really would have to be desperate to have Stokes on the park v. Germany...anyone else, but he's just not good enough. Even McGeady, Walters, Brady are miles ahead of him just now.

And it's still really all about Scotland.
That pressing game might work for a while, but you forget how lethal the Germans are on the break. Assuming we put them under pressure in the first place...
We wouldn't necessarily have to be putting the Germans under pressure, we would just be losing possession higher up the pitch than usual.

[tetsujin1979]

Doyle, Long, Meyler and now Lenihan in the squad. Some feather in the cap for Cork City.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'd say our two games against them last time showed that Germany are at their most dangerous when you let them have the ball and try to defend deep. The teams that have had any sort of luck against them in recent times - Sweden, Ghana, Algeria - all played at a high tempo and tried to disrupt them in their own half.


Doyle, Long, Meyler and now Lenihan in the squad. Some feather in the cap for Cork City.
Delaney too.

[tetsujin1979]

Delaney too.not in the final squad, although part of the wider "panel" if you like

could have been a chance for Mark Connolly too. Or Shane O'Neill, if they wanted to put a cat amongst pigeons.

If you want a quick conspiracy theory - Lenihan was called up to distract from the inevitable questions about Keane's book.

[Kingdom]

We really would have to be desperate to have Stokes on the park v. Germany...anyone else, but he's just not good enough. Even McGeady, Walters, Brady are miles ahead of him just now.
Listen I'm not claiming Stokes is the oracle, and to be fair the definition of an in-from Stokes isn't quite the same as an in-form Thomas Mueller, or Robbie Keane. My point being that an in-form Stokes, should never really be a huge threat compared to other international forwards, but he obviously did something right against Germany 12 onths ago.Technically he has the type of game whereby we would benefit if we manage to win possession high up the pitch or if we break ourselves.

I'm not a Celtic fan so if people who watch him week-in week-out say he cannot be consdidered then fair enough.


And it's still really all about Scotland.
That pressing game might work for a while, but you forget how lethal the Germans are on the break. Assuming we put them under pressure in the first place...[/QUOTE]

Scotland is a month away. We've an opportunity, however slim that might be - and it's very slim-, but an opportunity nonetheless, to go a point up on Scotland in comparable fixtures if we can come away from Gelsenkirchen with a point. So the Scotland game can be parked for a while.
I don't forget at all how good the Germans are on the break, I've watched more German football than any other football the last few years, and they have the ability to cause us absolute horrors - regardless of how we approach the game.
The tactics I suggest would be useful in all of our away matches to be fair, and I'd be very confident that a similar approach in Celtic Park would most definitely reap more dividends than in North West Germany, so use it as a training match if that's the case, and accept the possibility of zero points against Germany, by trying to hone the tactics ahead of the first of four crunch ties.

I worry about your last point though, I worry that we're not going to put pressure on Germany high up at all, and invite them to break us down. Personally speaking, it is hard not to expect Jogi to pinpoint our fullbacks as the weak link. Perversely his own full-backs are where Germany are incredibly weak, and I think if we were to target them, and actually use the brain and alternate the sides from which we pressurise, by going on the front-foot from early on, that we could really turn the game into a scrap, and that is where Germany aren't so hot. it's what USA and Ghana both did, and both had success. Argentina too, but in a far more limited manner. If we allow Draxler, Gotze and in particular Schuerlle to attack Meyler and Ward, then the floodgates will open very quickly.

Say you swop out Stokes for Walters, or Stokes for McClean, and use the players that I picked, really it is a team that can be moulded into a couple of different formations, from the traditional 442, to the 451/433 either defensively or offensively.

[Stuttgart88]

Doyle, Long, Meyler and now Lenihan in the squad. Some feather in the cap for Cork City.
Agreed, which shows to me there really is at least something going right in some parts of Irish football.

[Dodge]

Strange one. Lenihan not deemed good enough for the last ROI under 21 squad (even with Matt Doherty injured)

http://www.fai.ie/ireland/match/13/2015/2011488?tab=report

[Stuttgart88]

I'm not sure which is stranger though. Lenihan being called up, or successive underage squad selections. The latter have been very erratic down the years.

[razor]

Strange one. Lenihan not deemed good enough for the last ROI under 21 squad (even with Matt Doherty injured)

http://www.fai.ie/ireland/match/13/2015/2011488?tab=report

That match report has Lenihan as part of the starting team.
different Lenihan?

[Kingdom]

We wouldn't necessarily have to be putting the Germans under pressure, we would just be losing possession higher up the pitch than usual.

You could look at it that way. We tend not to hold onto possession too long as it is. If you break the pitch into six segments (three either side of the halfway line) you'll find we tend to lose the ball in the first segment of the opponents half the most and generally that is where our furthest forward player is. That generally concentrates play into the segments closest to our goal, which invariably concentrates pressure more onto our back 6. Now if we're going to continue to concede possession, then it makes sense to do this further away from our goal, and even just by shifting that play up one further segment, and consciously push our front 1/2 up onto the shoulders of Hummels and Boateng, and the two wide players into the face of the full-backs, it means that momentum generally will have to start further into the German half. That will only work however if our back 4 push up from the split of the closest two segments to our goal of our half into the split of the two segments furthest from our goal.

That sounds like poppy-****, but there is method to the madness, believe me. The problem is that it requires high-intensity, huge concentration levels, and complete faith in your players doing exactly what they should be doing. All facets that players and management have failed in the recent past. Problem too when a few of our players aren't either fit (Gibson/Hendrick/Ward) or used to their position (Meyler).

John O'Shea and Glenn Whelan are going to be crucial. Germany are likely to employ the false or roving forward in Mueller meaning long stretches whereby our centre halves have nobody to mark as they would expect in the EPL. It will mean that they'll have to be alert to the doubling up on the Irish full-backs, meaning one will most likely get dragged out of the centre, probably Wilson, meaning Glenn Whelan will have to be prepared to drop an extra 5 yds to civer this gap.

[Stuttgart88]

Most teams I have seen in the last 3-4 years that have had success against more sophisticated and better passing teams have always had at least one man pressing the player on the ball, with the rest set up in lines across the pitch. Trap just had lines across the pitch. Pressure on the ball is essential. Of course it's easier said than done against good teams.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Fair play kingdom, your rationale makes great sense, but the only flaw is you/we overestimate the relative abilities of the players to carry out such an ambitious game plan...

If Whelan & Ward both play, we're majorly screwed anyway. Wouldn't ever pick either of them again after Saturday, at this stage would rather have 10 Mark Nobles than those two.

[Kingdom]

Most teams I have seen in the last 3-4 years that have had success against more sophisticated and better passing teams have always had at least one man pressing the player on the ball, with the rest set up in lines across the pitch. Trap just had lines across the pitch. Pressure on the ball is essential. Of course it's easier said than done against good teams.

Exactly. And you don't need to have good players to do it, you need to have willing players.
The other factor is the defence. They need to be expecting that a pass somewhere amongst the Germans will go astray because of the pressure our players up top would be placing on them, and then when it goes astray, the back 4 push up that extra 5yds to cramp the pitch, likewise midfield pushing up the extra 5 yds with Whelan doing half that with an eye to a counter.
It is pretty effective when done, but really needs buy in from everyone. If that system was being deployed I'd probably push for McClean wide left, purely for stamina and pace on the break, having thought about it some more.

[tetsujin1979]

That match report has Lenihan as part of the starting team.
different Lenihan?
yeah, it's Blackburn's Darragh Lenihan. I made the same mistake

[Kingdom]

Personally I think Glenn Whelan gets too tough a time of it. He carries out the orders of his manager. He is, and has been for some considerable time, Stoke's MVP. He has been consistently excellent for them.
I'll put that into context; I'm an extremely optimistic guy, generally speaking, and I absolutely abhorr bad football, irrespective of the level/standard of the game I'm watching. However, one of my favourite players in the last decade, has been Lucas Leiva. The level of abuse that guy took, and still takes, from Liverpool fans is nothing short of disgusting. A guy who totally changed everything he was good at in his position, who sacrificed you could say, to become central - despite what goons on the Kop would have you believe - to how the Torres Liverpool era team functioned so well. Closes space, tackles, tactically fouls, intercepts, distributes effectively, and sits to allow the perceived skilled leaders do their undisciplined best. Every team needs an absolute workhorse, and Whelan is our Lucas Leiva.

Has he had some stinkers for us- yes there are times he hasn't played effectively, but I would say a few of those performances can be attributed to absolutely prehistoric tactics.
I would definitely say that Glenn Whelan in theory should be phased out of our first eleven, if Mac is allowed to play in his withdrawn pivot as he does for Everton, alongside Gibson. McCarthy offers all that Whelan does, but with better quality when he receives the ball or breaks with it.

[DeLorean]

Can't agree with that to be honest but more important people than me certainly do, luckily for Glenn. I don't really rate Lucas either, although I'm aware of the massive u-turn amongst Liverpool supporters towards him a couple of years back, before he got injured. He's pretty one paced and many, if not most, of those tactical fouls come when he's caught for pace or out of position. I find that generally speaking Benitez lovers tend to have a lot more time for Lucas than the anti-Rafa brigade, which makes a bit of sense I suppose. Even most Trap apologists don't really rate Whelan though I would think.

[Kingdom]

Can't agree with that to be honest but more important people than me certainly do, luckily for Glenn. I don't really rate Lucas either, although I'm aware of the massive u-turn amongst Liverpool supporters towards him a couple of years back, before he got injured. He's pretty one paced and many, if not most, of those tactical fouls come when he's caught for pace or out of position. I find that generally speaking Benitez lovers tend to have a lot more time for Lucas than the anti-Rafa brigade, which makes a bit of sense I suppose. Even most Trap apologists don't really rate Whelan though I would think.

Hey, I know little about football, that's just my observation. I wouldn't be slow to admit either that as an EPL player, Lucas is finished; the second cruciate has totalled his mobility. I feel really sorry for him.

And I'd agree with you too, how an LFC fan stands on Lucas generally tends to point to whether they are pro or anti Benitez. Great observation.
Whelan is by his own admission only carrying out what managers request from him. Hopefully the current managers request more, or install someone who can do more.

[nigel-harps1954]

The holding midfielder role, that of the simple passer, the reader of the game, and the person to calm things down and slow it up a bit when needed to, is woefully overlooked in modern football. Glenn Whelan is that type of player, able to pop up and attack when he needs to, but is that perfect type of player to just sit in midfield, read the game, make the tackles when he needs to, and just calm things down, simple 10 yard passes.

There's a whole raft of those type of players in England who are often chastised. The aforementioned Lucas is one of them, Michael Carrick is another. They're among my favourite type of footballer and some of the abuse these kind of players get bewilders me.

Whelan is a very valuable player to have in the squad and would be perfect playing in a 3 man midfield in behind the likes of Gibson and McCarthy, or Hoolahan and McCarthy.

[paul_oshea]

Most teams I have seen in the last 3-4 years that have had success against more sophisticated and better passing teams have always had at least one man pressing the player on the ball, with the rest set up in lines across the pitch. Trap just had lines across the pitch. Pressure on the ball is essential. Of course it's easier said than done against good teams.

It sounds very simple and obvious but its a key thing especially when spain played it, a trajectoy and distance from the player closest to the ball relative to being in the best position and not drawing the system "out of shape".

[Kingdom]

The holding midfielder role, that of the simple passer, the reader of the game, and the person to calm things down and slow it up a bit when needed to, is woefully overlooked in modern football. Glenn Whelan is that type of player, able to pop up and attack when he needs to, but is that perfect type of player to just sit in midfield, read the game, make the tackles when he needs to, and just calm things down, simple 10 yard passes.

There's a whole raft of those type of players in England who are often chastised. The aforementioned Lucas is one of them, Michael Carrick is another. They're among my favourite type of footballer and some of the abuse these kind of players get bewilders me.

Whelan is a very valuable player to have in the squad and would be perfect playing in a 3 man midfield in behind the likes of Gibson and McCarthy, or Hoolahan and McCarthy.

What upsets me, and I mean it upsets me, and I've written to the FAI about it, is that we tend to produce a type of player designed to go to the Premier League in England, but the vast majority either end up having what was good about them in the first place beaten out of them, or they aren't suited to what the gambling club hopes they'll be good at.

Continental Europe, and in particular Germany, Holland and Belgium, and the likes of Denmark and Sweden, are places where Irish players could thrive. Not just plod through their careers, but thrive. Whelan struck it lucky for a variety of reasons, but Owen Garvan has not been so lucky. That guy will have wasted what could, nay should, have been a stellar career, because he is a mite too slow or not athletic enough for the ENglish game.
The FAI in coordination with the ASTI and the Dept of Education, and unfortunately the DDSL, should be moulding the academic studies of these kids to be learning languages to a functional level, along with basic business subjects so that they aren't all pidgeon hole-ing when they reach teh critical 14-21 age group.

I should add, that is one the reasons I admire the likes of Cillian Sheridan, Dominic Foley, Darren O'Dea and so on. They thought outside the box. They had enough faith in themselves in the basics of the game, and refused to go plumbing the depths of the English or heaven's forbid, the English league pyramid.

[DeLorean]

Hey, I know little about football

Absolutely. I'm not sure what gave you the impression I thought otherwise.

To be fair, Lucas was playing his best football before one of those injuries. I remember him being immense in a game at home to Manchester City shortly before one of them. Overall though, I just never really thought he was good enough for a club with aspirations as big as Liverpool's. I'm all for carrying out the manager's instructions but I think they may have suited his limitations, as opposed to his real skill set being sacrificed. Obviously I never saw this alleged skill set which may have been a part of his previous life at Gremio, so I can't say for sure. One would have to presume he wasn't Brazil's captain at underage for nothing. Even already, and obviously the jury is still out, I would see the likes of Daley Blind as having more to offer in that role, as he looks like a playmaker as well as a ball winner. Same with Owen Hargreaves at his best, he wasn't just content to win possession, he had great vision and a passing range to match. I think if you're going to be in the team for ball winning alone, you really have to be exceptional at it, like Mascherano or obviously Makélélé, who seemingly invented the role.

I don't think Whelan is a particular good tackler and he's a pretty average passer when there's any sort of pressure applied. Therefore the best he can offer is to hold his position and he generally does that as best he can, but without pace and a genuine presence. I just don't think that's anywhere near enough.

[Kingdom]

It sounds very simple and obvious but its a key thing especially when spain played it, a trajectoy and distance from the player closest to the ball relative to being in the best position and not drawing the system "out of shape".

When it's said by me or you it sounds simple. But if you were to draw down what I'm trying to get across, it's tough. It's even tougher to get right.

If you were to use the 10 outfield players as pods of three, with the central striker the only isolated player. But then you have to also consider the back 4 as a single line for the purposes of holding a high line, or low line for offside and counter-attacking. So if you have one pod (for this example defending) which includes the left winger/attacker, the left sided player of a middle-three, and a left-full, they must move in a particular style symmetrically, depending on who the ball is closest to, in order to cordon off specific segments of the pitch. But if the left full is moving diagonally forward towards the touch line, the remaining three of the back 4 must also move, in order for the single backline not to be totally out of alignment and therefore leaving a huge space to exploit on the left-side of defence. So therefore the team has 2/3 choices.

A) the back three shuffle sidewards to the left, and slightly forward to drag the back 4 line into alignment, meaning the right hand side pod of three must shuffle slightly right and down, and the middle pod of three moves slightly further apart and but a touch forward.

Options B & C are different variations of that, but it's goddamn boring to listen to. Bloody effective it is. Some of the so-called middling European teams are excellent at it. In ENgland, a terrible example of it are Chelsea. I say terrible because they have an incredible array of talent, and they seldom use it, but examples of it can be seen when they play other members of the big 4.

[Charlie Darwin]

not in the final squad, although part of the wider "panel" if you like

could have been a chance for Mark Connolly too. Or Shane O'Neill, if they wanted to put a cat amongst pigeons.

If you want a quick conspiracy theory - Lenihan was called up to distract from the inevitable questions about Keane's book.
Ah sorry, I thought you meant the wider squad. Still, some little cabal of Corkonians.

[DeLorean]

I just noticed you typed "Hey, I know little about football". I thought you had typed "Hey, I know a little about football"... as in I shouldn't have disregarded your observation, which I didn't. So basically I wasn't agreeing with you when I said "Absolutely"!! Confusing, I know.

[Charlie Darwin]

He is, and has been for some considerable time, Stoke's MVP. He has been consistently excellent for them.
He has been playing some real good soccer for them this semester.

[Kingdom]

I just noticed you wrote "Hey, I know little about football". I thought you had wrote "Hey, I know a little about football"... as in I shouldn't have disregarded your observation, which I didn't. So basically I wasn't agreeing with you when I said "Absolutely"!! Confusing, I know.

I am more confused now than your original post. I assumed you were either being funny, or being insulting. Either way, I'm saying that I have an opinion on this stuff from repeatedly looking at the same matches again and again to study tactics, and drawing my opinion based on that, rather than just saying something for the sake of it. It's why I'll generally laud McGeady to the hilt, when most others repeatedly criticise him. It's the same reason I'll take a manager/coach to task for employing baffling tactics or selections when I feel there are better options available. From analysis, not just for the craic.

**** off Charie. :-)

[DeLorean]

I wasn't being funny or insulting, as I was responding to something you didn't say. I was basically agreeing that you know a little about football, but that's not what you said :)

[the doc]

Only JoSh has coped with better forwards at International level, the other two were Dickie and the Saint.

Keogh, Wilson, Clark and Pearce have all struggled to cope with international forwards.

I'm concerned about our management set up too as well.

The next two games won't tell us much as we are expected to beat the Gibs and lose to the Gerrys.

Wee Gordy has got the Scots going so that will be our big test.

[paul_oshea]

When it's said by me or you it sounds simple. But if you were to draw down what I'm trying to get across, it's tough. It's even tougher to get right.

If you were to use the 10 outfield players as pods of three, with the central striker the only isolated player. But then you have to also consider the back 4 as a single line for the purposes of holding a high line, or low line for offside and counter-attacking. So if you have one pod (for this example defending) which includes the left winger/attacker, the left sided player of a middle-three, and a left-full, they must move in a particular style symmetrically, depending on who the ball is closest to, in order to cordon off specific segments of the pitch. But if the left full is moving diagonally forward towards the touch line, the remaining three of the back 4 must also move, in order for the single backline not to be totally out of alignment and therefore leaving a huge space to exploit on the left-side of defence. So therefore the team has 2/3 choices.

A) the back three shuffle sidewards to the left, and slightly forward to drag the back 4 line into alignment, meaning the right hand side pod of three must shuffle slightly right and down, and the middle pod of three moves slightly further apart and but a touch forward.

Options B & C are different variations of that, but it's goddamn boring to listen to. Bloody effective it is. Some of the so-called middling European teams are excellent at it. In ENgland, a terrible example of it are Chelsea. I say terrible because they have an incredible array of talent, and they seldom use it, but examples of it can be seen when they play other members of the big 4.

Ya you have explained it quite well literally in a theoretical sense. I think its about players having that spatial awareness that we wouldn't have. I really think its about that and as simple as that, once you know the system. I think for you because youre a more logical thinker than in this instance "doer" that to understand it is more difficult, because I'm pretty sure when you're playing it and understand it its pretty much all about being aware of who is closest and in the best position, you hold. I think all that is instinctive to professional footballers.

By the way don't take that as insult, its not meant like that.

[Charlie Darwin]

I am more confused now than your original post. I assumed you were either being funny, or being insulting. Either way, I'm saying that I have an opinion on this stuff from repeatedly looking at the same matches again and again to study tactics, and drawing my opinion based on that, rather than just saying something for the sake of it. It's why I'll generally laud McGeady to the hilt, when most others repeatedly criticise him. It's the same reason I'll take a manager/coach to task for employing baffling tactics or selections when I feel there are better options available. From analysis, not just for the craic.

**** off Charie. :-)
Lads, when you two have a conversation on here you look like Paul O'Shea when he starts talking to himself.

[DeLorean]

Blame the avatar guy.

[Charlie Darwin]

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-TrsdB7dfTw/0.jpg

[Kingdom]

Only JoSh has coped with better forwards at International level, the other two were Dickie and the Saint.
I would contend that OShea's biggest nightmare is to play against teams with the philosophy that Germany have. Not just JOSh, but most English based centre-halves, because it means for most of the time, they have to mark a zone, rather than a player. Funnily enough SSL is a player I'd love to have next week, as I think he's perfect for facing this type of formation. It's the type of game OLeary would have excelled in, but maybe McCarthy or Moran would have struggled. The false forward is the genius position that has come out of this generation. And I don't mean the Spain variety, I specifically mean Mueller and his role for Germany. Schurrle, Mueller, Reus, Goetze all mean Germany can do this.
Richard Keogh might actually be suited to this type of game, but from the bits I've seen of him, I'm just not convinced he's up to playing at this level.


Keogh, Wilson, Clark and Pearce have all struggled to cope with international forwards.
Of course they will, It's obvious that two aren't international standard centre-halves, and one looks uncomfortable, and the other has a problem concentrating for 90 mins.


The next two games won't tell us much as we are expected to beat the Gibs and lose to the Gerrys.
I disagree totally here though....Gibraltar is the opportunity to try something different out, without the result really being in doubt. Germany is the same: this is the game where MON's credentials are put on show. It's where he should have been trying to gain an upper hand on Poland and Scotland by coming up with a formula or strategy that gives us wiggle room for our games against our rivals. MON's attitude to the Germany game, and if there was any dividend, has a direct implication on our matches with the other two. A point from Germany forces Scotland to be either more gung-ho against us, or more gung-ho against Poland. If they have to go more gung-ho against Poland, they'll lose, meaning they'll have to come to Dublin in 2015 having to win. These are the small details that generally get glossed over in the press, nevermind on forums, and they have a huge impact on groups such as ours.

[Kingdom]

I think its about players having that spatial awareness .

In a nutshell. And a lot of pro footballers - British in particular - do not have it.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

The only way Walters should be getting on the pitch is to use his energy for the last 15-20 minutes. Too many times, he starts, he looks very capable for a 20 minute spell and ends up having no lasting impact during the course of a game. The last several times he played for Ireland, he doesn't look fit enough too start let alone last 90 minutes. I would really like to see Stokes and/or Murphy get some decent game time against Gibraltar though I would start with Long & Doyle up front together with Doyle, in particular, creating space for Long to run into; or alternatively start Long up front on his own with Hoolahan in the hole and Pilkington /McClean and McGeady coming inside and linking up on the flanks.

A lot of teams don't play with any orthodox wingers anymore so it would be interesting to play say Gibson, Hendrick, Meyler and Hoolahan with Gibson furthest back and Hoolahan furthest forward and one or even two full backs having licence to drive forward.

There are many different options. Of course it's all for naught if you keep selecting players like Whelan and Walters any way; two players who sum up the malaise of the national team.

[Kingdom]

I've just realised I haven't even considered the possibility of Robbie Keane starting against Germany. Does anyone think he will be picked, and should he be picked?

[Stuttgart88]

If Keane struggled to be in the game away to Georgia I think it's hard to see how he'll have any impact in Germany. He is on great form in MLS but his team are usually at least as good as the teams they play, usually better. There's going to be a lot of donkey work required in Germany and younger legs will be required I reckon, plus someone strong in the air. It's going to suit Long and/or Doyle more, with Murphy a wild card to play some role based on club form.

I probably sound like a broken record, but the Italy friendly set the scene for this game. Long, Hoolahan advance, McGeady and AN Other wide. Pilkington started in London but I'd go with McClean.

I have a feeling MON might pick McGeady in the free role rather than a wide role.

[zero]

i don't think hoolahan has any real role to play in the bigger games. he gives the ball away too easily and is not able to win it back. for every 1 good ball there's a ball lost.

i'd start him against gibraltar and georgia home and come off the bench for scotland/poland for the last 30 mins if it's a tight game. he just is not good enough in my opinion - we can justify semi carrying robbie because of his goals. wes doesn't offer enough.

i get particularly riled by people who claim we should drop whelan in favour of hoolahan. don't even know where to start with that one.

[Charlie Darwin]

Of all the criticisms I've heard of Hoolahan, I'd say giving the ball away too much would be at the very bottom. Then again, we live in a country where people criticise Robbie Keane for not scoring enough goals, so anything's possible.

[zero]

i'd say i'm not alone but you'd probably want to ask norwich fans. googled it - sky sports classify his major weakness as not holding on to the ball:

http://www1.skysports.com/football/player/1799/wes-hoolahan

that's probably based on statistics not some punter's view. in case of confusion i classify 'giving the ball away' to be equivalent to 'not holding on to the ball'.

edit: yes, those characteristics are based on stats. or anyone who isn't blinkered.

[Charlie Darwin]

I can only base it on my own observations and in any game I've seen him in he's the tidiest player in possession on the pitch. When he gives it away, it's usually because he's attempting a risky pass around the opposition penalty area, which is his main function on the pitch.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Personally I think Glenn Whelan gets too tough a time of it. He carries out the orders of his manager. He is, and has been for some considerable time, Stoke's MVP. He has been consistently excellent for them.

Has he had some stinkers for us- yes there are times he hasn't played effectively, but I would say a few of those performances can be attributed to absolutely prehistoric tactics.

I would definitely say that Glenn Whelan in theory should be phased out of our first eleven, if Mac is allowed to play in his withdrawn pivot as he does for Everton, alongside Gibson. McCarthy offers all that Whelan does, but with better quality when he receives the ball or breaks with it.

The only flaws in otherwise the best analysis of our playing system on here, are that personally feel Whelan hasn't really done much in any Ireland game (exc.maybe Sweden in Stockholm*) in any game since we qualified for the Euros so unless we are really desperate, feel he no longer justifies a place.
Realise his role in the side, but he's just too slow and one-dimensional in the main, these last 3 years. And a total liabity in possession.

*He didn't play, doh. But backs-up my point. We do better without.

Ideally central midfield would be Gibson & McCarthy, with Meyler/Noble back-up IMO.
Assuming Hendrick would be considered more a left-sided player along with Quinn.


I disagree totally here though....Gibraltar is the opportunity to try something different out, without the result really being in doubt. Germany is the same: this is the game where MON's credentials are put on show. It's where he should have been trying to gain an upper hand on Poland and Scotland by coming up with a formula or strategy that gives us wiggle room for our games against our rivals. MON's attitude to the Germany game, and if there was any dividend, has a direct implication on our matches with the other two. A point from Germany forces Scotland to be either more gung-ho against us, or more gung-ho against Poland. If they have to go more gung-ho against Poland, they'll lose, meaning they'll have to come to Dublin in 2015 having to win. These are the small details that generally get glossed over in the press, nevermind on forums, and they have a huge impact on groups such as ours.

Realise you are rather more optimistic, but knowing and admired MO'N since his Celtic days, really don't see what he's going to produce with these players in terms of any dividend next Tuesday or wriggle-room, sadly. Those 6 games involving us, Alba & Polska are going to decide the also-rans...
If Germany drop one point v.us 3, it'll more because they've relaxed for some strange, unquantifiable reason which is probably inexplicable.
And next Tues, all other factors considered, is just too soon I reckon.

[DeLorean]

Whelan was injured for Stockholm. Why would Hendrick be considered a more left sided player?

[Charlie Darwin]

Henrick is a right-sided player.

[harry crumb]

i don't think hoolahan has any real role to play in the bigger games. he gives the ball away too easily and is not able to win it back. for every 1 good ball there's a ball lost.

i'd start him against gibraltar and georgia home and come off the bench for scotland/poland for the last 30 mins if it's a tight game. he just is not good enough in my opinion - we can justify semi carrying robbie because of his goals. wes doesn't offer enough.

i get particularly riled by people who claim we should drop whelan in favour of hoolahan. don't even know where to start with that one.

I think he has added an extra dimension to our play when he has got some game time. He wants to get on the ball and dictate play.

He can be guilty of giving up possession but he is usually doing so in a forward area.

As for not winning it back I think that is a fallacy as he has shown he is well able to do that side of the game as well.