21st round LOI. July 25-27

[Nesta99]

I know your post crossed with mine, but I think it's really important to emphasise that, in the circumstances of a person landing on their head from a height of ten foot or so, putting them in the recovery position is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

It worked last night, but you can't play odds with potential spinal and neck injuries.

You are arguably correct in what you say. But a jaw thrust is very rarely performed correctly by those who have basic first aid training and protecting c-spine is admirable but pointless if the injured does not have a secure airway. On the balance of all possibilities the correct thing was to act within the scope of knowledge and if that was the recovery position so be it, the best course of action was taken. If on the other hand you had a qualified Paramedic or ED doctor (not a bog standard GP) with appropriate equipment in the vicinity then let them worry about neurological damage or shock while securing the airway. 'Swallowing his tongue' is misleading as it does cause people to think the thing to do is stick fingers etc in to a gob to draw the tongue back, if the injured spews as a resut then we are really in the sh*t, correct terminology should be used and encouraged. I am properly surprised that some people are looking for a scapegoat for what was an accident, CityRebel's foul analysis was amusing this is not now that a blame game was attempted (not by CityRebel mind).

[pineapple stu]

There's no "arguably" about it. If Lenihan had damaged one of his c-vertebrae on the way down - entirely possible - then rolling him into the recovery position could have killed him instantly. "Three, four and five keep you alive" is a saying - if you break C3, C4 or C5 in your cervical spine (three of the seven vertebrae at the top of the spine, basically in your neck), your diaphragm stops working and you basically have instant cardiac arrest. I think that's not fully appreciated.

If you roll a patient with a spinal injury, you can do much more harm than good. Yes, protecting c-spine is admirable but pointless if there is no patent airway. But rolling the patient is admirable but pointless if they suffer cardiac arrest. And you risk paralysing the person too. The airway must be opened properly - in the case of a spinal injury, you use a jaw thrust. If you don't know how, you wait for someone who does (and there's an ambulance at all LoI games and supposedly a doctor with each team for a reason). As I said, you shouldn't play odds with spinal injuries. Rolling the person was absolutely not the best course of action. And there is no scope of knowledge which says you roll someone who has just landed on their head from ten foot. You can't make up your own scope of knowledge.

Lenihan didn't necessarily need a paramedic or emergency department doctor; an EMT (from the ambulance crew) would have been enough to maintain the airway, put him on a stretcher and take him to hospital.

I don't want to sound too harsh on O'Shea. I can entirely understand why he acted as he did; it's a completely natural reaction. The real thing to come out of this is that more people should go on a basic first aid course. Just as a general rule, it can't be a bad thing.

[CityRebel]

The most important thing is Brian Lenihan is ok now.

[Dodge]

Well yeah that is true but we should of had a penalty in the first half. But our finishing did cost us.

The Hoare/Gorman thing? That was a free out as Gorman clearly started the wrestling. He was first to go down but not a penalty IMO

[pineapple stu]

CityRebel - I don't agree. That's very important of course, but i think it'd be more important if people - from watching the incident or even reading this thread - went out and did a first aid course so they could know how to help at something like this in future.

Spoke to someone on this today, and their first comment was that they couldn't believe it when they see Lenihan being rolled "like a sack of spuds" after what happened him.

[Nesta99]

I can assure you that far more people are saved daily by being rolled 'like a sack of spuds' than intervention being conservative in fear of worsening or causing spinal injury! That is not to say it should totally be disregarded either but to err too much on the side of caution is folly unless there is obvious deformity or trauma. Can anyone recall a serious spinal injury to LoI player??? The chap is fine, and that is due to the actions of people with a basic knowledge of first aid not over complicating things. Well done to them!!

[CityRebel]

CityRebel - I don't agree. That's very important of course, but i think it'd be more important if people - from watching the incident or even reading this thread - went out and did a first aid course so they could know how to help at something like this in future.

Spoke to someone on this today, and their first comment was that they couldn't believe it when they see Lenihan being rolled "like a sack of spuds" after what happened him.
Dr. Stu, that's complete rubbish, there may be lessons to be learned, but the fact he's ok is the most important thing.

[pineapple stu]

Genuinely Nesta - in the cold light of day, there is no point suggesting rolling Lenihan was the right thing to do. PHECC, who govern first aid (and higher levels of pre-hospital care up to Advanced Paramedic level) will disagree with you quite clearly all the way through their Guidelines, which are available online.

It would objectively have been better had O'Shea realised he was beyond his knowledge and let higher skill levels act.

It has happened in England that people who moved a spinal, paralysing him, got sued for not acting within the scope of their training. If you want to risk paralysing someone and being sued, rolling a spinal is the best way to go.

CItyRebel - one person ok is very important. The skills to make many more ok in the future is, in opinion, more important.

[Nesta99]

Dr. Stu, that's complete rubbish, there may be lessons to be learned, but the fact he's ok is the most important thing.

Stu's point i presume is that it may not be just so ok the next time so people should make it their business to know what to do in the event of being present at a similar incident, though to be the most qualified to intervene at a LoI match is unlikely this may not be the case at say a junior match or Summer league. The incident was managed well but I thought the Doctors were a little slow in reacting and getting across to the player. This brings up all sorts of issues in relation to the duty of care that players have to eachother by not feigning injury as in the event of something like this happening people may not react promptly as they should as there is a momentary pause to see if the players is seeking a free or sanction against opposition players!

[pineapple stu]

Stu's point i presume is that it may not be just so ok the next time so people should make it their business to know what to do in the event of being present at a similar incident, though to be the most qualified to intervene at a LoI match is unlikely this may not be the case at say a junior match or Summer league
That's exactly it.

In other news, Derry being fairly clinical in the bowl; 4-1 up within an hour. They even scored our goal for us.

[pineapple stu]

Shades of Dalymount as there's a 7 minute hold up for an injury to Mark langtry. Looked like he caught his studs in the turf. But he's been brought by ambulance to the bench apparently. Not seen that before

[PartySaint]

Dundalk 1 up after 2 minutes. A win next week in Cork could see them have the title wrapped up very early this season.

[Nesta99]

I know exactly who PHECC are as I have done work with them! I also cannot agree that clinical guidlines govern all circumstances without pragmatism considered - and an experience practioner would know this. Higher skilled people were some distance away and O Shea acted quickly and competently for the circumstances he was faced with. I have pm'd you Stu earlier outlining the rationale of not over thinking First Aid ie aid given before professional help arrives mainly not to pull the thread further off topic. First Aiders should not be bogged down by PHECC Pre-Hospital care guidelines as that is not their job. When somone dies from easily resolved hypoxia from not being rolled due to somone afraid to act in case of exacerbating an unlikely spinal injury we shall see what the courts have to say. In the meantime Good Samaratin Law will do just fine as a defence to litigation. Doing nothing is a lot worse than doing something in good faith hence litigation is a red herring and scare mongering! Exactly the sort of stuff that discourages people from becoming first aiders! If a paramedic log rolled without caution to further injury then they are open to litigation as they have the skill sets to interevene in a manner appropriate to their level of training. Anyway enough now. The outcome was spot on, phecc all was done wrong, nobody died and a basic first aider should stick to the basics (dr)ABC's not riduclous immobilisations or jaw thrusts!!

[Aaron]

UCD 1-6 Derry City

Patterson x2
Duffy x3
Molloy

Doherty OG for UCD

Also Shaun Kelly signed for us from Limerick

[patrickccfc]

2-0 dundalk ugh

[patrickccfc]

That goal difference dundalk have is definitely an extra point.. we will have to be at it from the start on Friday and not let them play cos they have players to do a lot of damage to any team that don't get it right at the back

[adamd164]

Maybe Trevor Croly can loan us a few players for next week; Kilduff can come back to his preferred hunting ground for a start. ;)

[Nesta99]

UCD 1-6 Derry City


Also Shaun Kelly signed for us from Limerick

Decent signing!

[CityRebel]

Stu's point i presume is that it may not be just so ok the next time so people should make it their business to know what to do in the event of being present at a similar incident, though to be the most qualified to intervene at a LoI match is unlikely this may not be the case at say a junior match or Summer league. The incident was managed well but I thought the Doctors were a little slow in reacting and getting across to the player. This brings up all sorts of issues in relation to the duty of care that players have to eachother by not feigning injury as in the event of something like this happening people may not react promptly as they should as there is a momentary pause to see if the players is seeking a free or sanction against opposition players!
I believe that Lenihan being ok is the most important thing, I agree that "people should make it their business to know what to do in the event of being present at a similar incident". I said as much earlier in the thread.

[Yossarian]

Comfortable win for us this evening. We didn't have to work too hard to get it. We'll have to up our game for the trip to Turners Cross but I think we can. A win there for us would be huge going into the last series of games.

[pineapple stu]

Just one last post on this before I take it to PM if necessary.


I know exactly who PHECC are as I have done work with them!
I've done work with them too; I'm PHECC qualified for example.


First Aiders should not be bogged down by PHECC Pre-Hospital care guidelines as that is not their job.
If he's a qualified first aider, PHECC is absolutely relevant (Occupational First Aid is the basic PHECC level).


When somone dies from easily resolved hypoxia from not being rolled due to somone afraid to act in case of exacerbating an unlikely spinal injury we shall see what the courts have to say. In the meantime Good Samaratin Law will do just fine as a defence to litigation. Doing nothing is a lot worse than doing something in good faith hence litigation is a red herring and scare mongering!
This is true, and O'Shea has obviously nothing to worry about here (if he were acting in the capacity of one of the voluntaries, it would be different), but his actions were still wrong, and it's worth pointing out how potentially very dangerous they were.


nobody died and a basic first aider should stick to the basics (dr)ABC's not riduclous immobilisations or jaw thrusts!!
Nothing ridiculous in the slightest about immobilisation or jaw thrusts (which latter, for the record, are outside the levels of first aiders).

Anyways, dunno why we can't play Derry in the Brandywell every time; great record up there, and an awful one against them in the Bowl. At least we only lost one goal on Bray. Bad weekend for us though, with Drogheda and Bohs winning, and Limerick maybe looking better than in recent weeks. Couple more injuries too, which we really can't cope with. Rather worrying that Derry beat us that easily without McEleaney and McNamee too.

[oriel]

Very comfortable win really. Played some good stuff in patches, and surprisingly didn't show one bit of fatigue after the trip to Croatia. We were very flat v Athlone last Sunday, this was a ruthless second half display.

Definitely big game in Cork next week, looking forward to that, I can't see us losing but Cork will be well up for this as they can't really can't afford to lose it, as 6 points behind will be a huge gap. I think the difference will remain at 3 next week.

[jinxy lilywhite]

What a weekend of trials and tribulations.

Biggest losers this week are:
Shams losing probably one too many games now to challenge.
Corks huge slip up in dalymount. Injury to a very key player.

Biggest winners
Dundalk comprehensive victory over Bray. This means that throughout our European campaign we never dropped a single point (draw with Derry happened before campaign started).
Pats - they have cork in their sights and 9 points of the pace. This is dispite their inconsistent form as opposed to last season. I do expect them to go on a run from now till the end of the season. The gap isn't too far for them to claw back with 12 games to go.
Athlone- despite losing to pats, heavy defeats to bray and ucd gives them a great glimmer of hope that they can get 10th and avoid even a playoff. They are 6 off but they have a far better GD.

Gonna be an exciting last dozen games

[PartySaint]

Our defending this season means we won't go on any decent run, realistically to catch Dundalk we'd have to win our next 10 games, we won't do that.

A Cork win next week coupled with a Pats win would be nice tho,

[jinxy lilywhite]

Was or is Conor kenna such a big loss?

[White Horse]

Bray played some nice football in middle of the park but lack creativity and penetration up front. Akinade played very wide though he did get a goal (even though it looked a mile offside). Dundalk were very controlled and looked capable of shifting up a couple of gears if required.

[Sligo Hoops.]

What a weekend of trials and tribulations.

Biggest losers this week are:
Shams losing probably one too many games now to challenge.


Rovers were never in a position to challenge this year. They have been going backwards since 2011. It's time for the programme editors to dust down the Hearts programme from 1996 when Nutsy came home. Hopefully he'll stay a bit longer this time.

[DRDoc]

Was or is Conor kenna such a big loss?

By some distance he is the most complete centre back in the country - a huge loss for Pats - the amount of times he cleaned up after Browne and others last season was incredible.

Pats are way more open also when Bolger is not playing and on his game, he drops between the two centre backs and reads the game very well

[PartySaint]

Was or is Conor kenna such a big loss?

Kenna is a loss but as a team we're not defending as well as we did last season. As pointed out, Bolger has been in and out of the team and not in great form when he does come in and players like Anto Flood and John Russell are a loss because they made it very difficult for teams to pass the ball out of defence.

[Ezeikial]

Rovers were never in a position to challenge this year.

The bookies clearly thought differently

[Candystripe]

What does everyone think of the turnaround in Derry City since Roddy left? Scoring goals for fun now while only scored 12 in total while he was here!

[Louth4sam]

What does everyone think of the turnaround in Derry City since Roddy left? Scoring goals for fun now while only scored 12 in total while he was here!

Good for Dundalk as look like you have a chance of taking points off everyone. Drogs look stronger too so could be a few upsets in last series of games. Hopefully none involve Dundalk

[Nesta99]

Was a fairly sure bet that Derry results would improve. Roddy had it set up to spoil and be defensive. Hutton knows what is expected of a Derry side and that is at least try to be in the game and not start off as if being beaten is a cert so damage limitation tactics.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

Turns out Roddy was right all along. There is a great squad there.

[pineapple stu]

A last point on first aid before I leave the thread back for football!

Sod's law is that it turns out Nesta99 is more qualified than I am, so while it appears my comments are right purely from the confines of my organisation's training, Nesta's right in terms of Joe Public's intervention. So he may have a spinal, but he does have a tongue blocking the airway, so if it's all you know, take the chance and roll.

As you were!

Still slightly surprised that Derry can lose 6-1 to Soligorsk (on aggregate) and then beat us 6-1. Probably best we don't qualify for Europe for a little while...

[El-Pietro]

So Josh is indeed a hero after all!

[Mr A]

I think what we have all learned here is that if someone suffers a nasty fall the thing to do is to engage in protracted debate as to what the correct course of action is.

http://1001films.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/lob1.jpg

[pineapple stu]

Only after the event though, of course.

Wouldn't want to look silly, like.

[Candystripe]

A last point on first aid before I leave the thread back for football!

Sod's law is that it turns out Nesta99 is more qualified than I am, so while it appears my comments are right purely from the confines of my organisation's training, Nesta's right in terms of Joe Public's intervention. So he may have a spinal, but he does have a tongue blocking the airway, so if it's all you know, take the chance and roll.

As you were!

Still slightly surprised that Derry can lose 6-1 to Soligorsk (on aggregate) and then beat us 6-1. Probably best we don't qualify for Europe for a little while...



But we did beat Aber 9-0 on aggregate so ye never know lol

[pineapple stu]

Somehow, I doubt it!

[nigel-harps1954]

For anyone who hasn't seen Sean McCarrons goal against Shelbourne on Friday night. It was a little bit good.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=294224854092332

[DRDoc]

What does everyone think of the turnaround in Derry City since Roddy left? Scoring goals for fun now while only scored 12 in total while he was here!

Derry in recent seasons have always been capable of going on a run of 5 or 6 games with results and goals a plenty - its when things were not going their way that problems started and they were unable to get out of slumps, confidence disappeared, etc. Consistency was a major issue

The question is whether they are no longer as soft centred/as open as they were over the last few seasons when they come up against well organised better teams.

[Nesta99]

So Josh is indeed a hero after all!

The boy done good! :p

not sure if a sticky out tongue smiley is best choice...

[Charlie Darwin]

The boy done good! :p

not sure if a sticky out tongue smiley is best choice...
Dundalk Fan Mocks Injured Lenihan

[Mr A]

Only after the event though, of course.

Wouldn't want to look silly, like.

I was thinking that if you argue at the time meaning eventually someone else will step in and then you can join forces and explain to them why they're wrong and also terrible human beings.

[Nesta99]

Dundalk Fan Mocks Injured Lenihan

Get a new job with The Sun? :)

[Mr A]

Dundalk Fan Disgracefully Attacks Injured Player, Then Condemns Media Who Brought You The Story