2018–19 UEFA Nations League

[NeverFeltBetter]

Just to give this its own thread: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/10722834/England-ready-to-play-in-new-Nations-League-as-revolutionary-Uefa-plan-earns-unanimous-backing.html

Looks like this idea is going ahead, but changed from the nine division format that was originally mooted. Instead, larger divisions of 16 teams each, further split into groups of four, with a knock-out stage to decide actual winners. Likely to begin sometime in/after 2018. Going by FIFA/UEFA rankings at the moment, Ireland would be somewhere in a third division I suppose.

[BonnieShels]

I preferred the idea of the 9 division format. It was much more straightforward.

Either way this has to be welcomed.

[Stuttgart88]

I agree, fantastic news. Only a nerd (like me and several others here) really got anything out of the friendlies. They lack intensity, context (other than getting a look at players) and excitement. Bring it on.

Is division based on UEFA coefficients or what?

Any idea how the TV money is being divvied up?

[DeLorean]

Sounds great overall. I suppose it would mean the end for friendlies against any teams outside of Europe though, more or less, but not a big deal I suppose. We don't have too many anyway.

This bit seems crazy though:

"As well as the carrot of promotion, winners of the lower divisions could be rewarded with wild-card places at future European Championships."

[osarusan]

Sounds pretty interesting.

So there is a 16-team top flight divided into 4 groups of 4, but what's under that? More mini-groups, or more levels? I'm wondering how promotion would work, if there are mini-groups underneath also. Perhaps a playoff similar to the top flight, but with promotion as a reward?

I also wonder how the rankings would work, regarding qualification for world cups or european championships. Would there be two separate ranking systems, or would results in one affect seeding for the others? Could be problematic if it is the latter.

[geysir]

I have used up my Telegraph quota, so I can't read that article.
Does this new nations league replace the existing play-off system to decide the final 4 qualifiers?
If so, I suspect that would make it even harder for us to get to a WC ever again.

[pineapple stu]

This has nothing to do with the World Cup. So no, doesn't replace the play-offs. Just replaces friendlies.

Sounds fun.

[osarusan]

I have used up my Telegraph quota, so I can't read that article.
Does this new nations league replace the existing play-off system to decide the final 4 qualifiers?
If so, I suspect that would make it even harder for us to get to a WC ever again.

A competition every 2 years. Seems like the group stages would run parallel to WC or EC qualifying. The finals (2 semis + final) would take place in years with no WC or EC final.

[osarusan]

From the article:


The precise format of the competition has yet to be confirmed but it is understood that there is almost unanimous support for a biennial event which would replace friendly games and run in parallel with the World Cup and European Championship from 2018.

As it stands, Uefa wants to divide the event into three or four divisions, with promotion and relegation between them.

England would qualify for a 16-team top flight, which would be split into four groups of four, with home and away fixtures taking place alongside qualifying matches for the World Cup and European Championship. Germany, Spain, Italy, France, Holland and Portugal are all likely to join England in the top division.

The winners of each of the four groups would then advance to a ‘Final Four’ tournament at a neutral venue, with two semi-finals and a final taking place over several days during the summer of odd-numbered years.

As well as the carrot of promotion, winners of the lower divisions could be rewarded with wild-card places at future European Championships.

[geysir]

This has nothing to do with the World Cup. So no, doesn't replace the play-offs. Just replaces friendlies.

Sounds fun.
Have you read a statement from Uefa about that?
The story that's being widely repeated is that in reference to the Euro and WC,
'the new tournament would not replace the current qualifying competitions for those major events, but it would award the four qualification spots that are currently decided by the play-offs'

[osarusan]

Have you read a statement from Uefa about that?
The story that's being widely repeated is that in reference to the Euro and WC,
the new tournament would not replace the current qualifying competitions for those major events, but it would award the four qualification spots that are currently decided by the play-offs.'
Perhaps the 'wildcards' mentioned in the article refers to what are now playoff places?

[pineapple stu]

The article linked refers to wildcards for the Euros only. Geysir was asking about the World Cup. Specifically, it says "winners of the lower divisions could be rewarded with wild-card places at future European Championships", so it's pure speculation for the moment anyway.

I don't see how the wildcards could entirely replace the playoffs though. You've got four wildcards presumably - four divisional winners. The Division 1 winner will have qualified anyway. Division 2 would possibly - I'd say half the time or more - have qualified. Would UEFA want the Division 4 winner at the Euros? I don't see that that could really be a concern for us either way.

You'd also have divisional winners decided by the summer of 2019, which would be at the key stages of the Euro 2020 qualification schedule. Would they award qualification spots to teams three games from the end of qualification, running the risk that countries treat the remainder of games like proper friendlies? Seems to be going down the same line as understrength teams in the Premiership.

[geysir]

Is this Telegraph article being awarded special status, above all others?
The story that is being repeated in most other media outlets is that WC and Euro playoff places will be awarded in this nations league set up.

Uefa haven't released a statement yet, have they?


Edit.

In the absence of a Uefa statement confirming the format of the tournament.
This is the status quo format according to 'reliable' Uefa sources. (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/league-of-nations-new-uefa-tournament-will-see-countries-win-qualifying-places-for-world-cup-9216138.html)

UEFA's new 'League of Nations' tournament will see some countries win qualifying places for the World Cup and European Championships, it has emerged.

The new tournament, which would be played biennially in odd-numbered years on the dates currently reserved for friendlies, is expected to be given the go-ahead by UEFA's Congress in Kazakhstan on Thursday after receiving backing from the body's ruling executive committee on Wednesday.The exact format has still to be confirmed, but UEFA sources said European countries would be split into four divisions, with England set to be in a top division of 14 teams along with Spain, Germany, Italy and Holland.The Nations League would begin after the 2018 World Cup and have a climax of semi-finals and final at a neutral venue, while in the lower divisions there would be a final to decide on promotion and qualification places for the World Cup and European Championships.The new tournament would not replace the current qualifying competitions for those major events, but it would award the four qualification spots that are currently decided by the play-offs.

[pineapple stu]

Well link away and add to the debate so. The Telegraph article is the only one on the thread.

Either way, I don't think such a system would mean the end of WC qualification as you put it.

Edit - I'll do it for you to save you another moan. Here's Sky Sports (http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11095/9233005/uefa-reveals-plans-for-a-new-nations-league-tournament), for example, saying that 2022 play off spots would require FIFA approval, so nothing more can really be said about it till FIFA comment.

But either way, if there's the same number of countries qualifying from Europe for the Euros or the World Cup, I don't see that it can significantly affect our chances of qualifying. Certainly the notion that it'll be harder to "get to a World Cup ever again" seems to be unfounded. Occasionally, we'll win division 3 like the rest.

[geysir]

Well link away and add to the debate so. The Telegraph article is the only one on the thread.

Maybe you missed it, but earlier I quoted the statement that was being repeated in many media outlets.


Either way, I don't think such a system would mean the end of WC qualification as you put it.

I put it differently, I said "I suspect that would make it even harder for us to get to a WC ever again"

[osarusan]

That Sky article implies that there are various proposals at this stage. I've seen the top flight consisting of 12, 14, or 16 teams in different newspaper sites.

It seems to have been agreed only in principle at this stage.

[geysir]

That Sky article implies that there are various proposals at this stage. I've seen the top flight consisting of 12, 14, or 16 teams in different newspaper sites.

It seems to have been agreed only in principle at this stage.
Then the format is to be decided later, they are only voting in the principle idea of the tournament.
Nothing can be ruled in or ruled out at this stage

[pineapple stu]

Maybe you missed it, but earlier I quoted the statement that was being repeated in many media outlets.


I put it differently, I said "I suspect that would make it even harder for us to get to a WC ever again"
You're a bit behind on the thread. My more recent posts have covered those now. Edit - also, you edited your post after I replied. I see the Indo article now; thanks.

But I still don't see how it can be "even harder for us to get to a WC ever again". Same number of teams qualifying should lead to a similar chance for us. Even if qualification is given to the top two in Divisions 2 and 3 (to cover the Division 1 winner already qualifying anyway and the Division 4 winner not being good enough, or even there not being a Division 4), sometimes we'll qualify that way.

[pineapple stu]

In fact, let's hypothesise. Cos this sounds like a fun concept anyway.

There are 54 countries in UEFA. Let's say there's going to be 16 in the top Division split into four groups, with semis and what have you. Let's say it's done on FIFA World Rankings, and let's say the groups are seeded. So you've a top flight of, let's say -

Spain
Switzerland
England
France

Germany
Holland
Croatia
Russia

Portugal
Belgium
Ukraine
Denmark

Italy
Greece
Bosnia
Sweden

All sounds fun.

That leaves 38 more teams. Right now, we're 34th in Europe. So a 16-team Division 2 means we're one of the top teams in Division 3. If there's a qualifying spot for promotion, then happy days.

Or maybe there's two divisions of 12, and a final division of 14. A division of 12 could be done on a single-round basis over two years, with two promoted. So you'd have -

Albania
Norway
Slovakia
Israel
Finland
Ireland
Bulgaria
Poland
Belarus
Macedonia
Northern Ireland
Estonia

Downside - no major pay days in there (no England or Brazil friendlies, for example). Maybe that could be countered by bigger TV deals. Upside - a top two spot would be entirely possible in that division. And we'd still have the regular qualification group as well.

Not really seeing anything that particularly affects our qualification hopes as yet to be honest.

I still don't see what would happen if a team qualifies through both mechanisms. Presumably it'll go to the next team down, but in which section? The qualification or the league? But that'd be similar to the problem where a club wins the Cup and comes second in the league - does the UEFA Cup spot go to the Cup runner-up or the next team in the league? It'd seem to make sense that the qualification is the main event, so the dupe spot goes to the next team in the league.

Another thought would be what would happen if you had a bad start to the league - say lost the first three games in Division 2. A logical approach would be to focus on the qualifiers, treat the league as a developmental thing, get relegated and hope to cruise Division 3 for the next campaign and get qualified there.

[geysir]

You're a bit behind on the thread. My more recent posts have covered those now. Edit - also, you edited your post after I replied. I see the Indo article now; thanks.

Now I'm behind the thread :) I introduced what was being reported in other media outlets here (http://foot.ie/threads/188522-Nations-League?p=1743651&viewfull=1#post1743651).
And now we have got to a better understanding of what is on the table at the Uefa congress and that the World Cup play off places, an idea previously dismissed, is still a live possibility.


But I still don't see how it can be "even harder for us to get to a WC ever again". Same number of teams qualifying should lead to a similar chance for us. Even if qualification is given to the top two in Divisions 2 and 3 (to cover the Division 1 winner already qualifying anyway and the Division 4 winner not being good enough, or even there not being a Division 4), sometimes we'll qualify that way.
Qualifying is not just a numbers game, a number game that 14 qualifying spots under the present system is equal to 14 qualifying spots under another system and that we would have an equal chance under both systems.

I suspect that the nations league system will give a better chance, to better teams than us, who don't win their WC qual group outright.
I suspect, means I'm suspicious that it will be more difficult, I don't yet have a case that I can bring to the court of public opinion because we don't know anything yet.

[geysir]

You're a bit behind on the thread. My more recent posts have covered those now. Edit - also, you edited your post after I replied. I see the Indo article now; thanks. Now I'm behind the thread :) I introduced what was being reported in other media outlets here (http://foot.ie/threads/188522-Nations-League?p=1743651&viewfull=1#post1743651).And now we have got to a better understanding of what is on the table at the Uefa congress and that the World Cup play off places, an idea previously dismissed, is still a live possibility.



But I still don't see how it can be "even harder for us to get to a WC ever again". Same number of teams qualifying should lead to a similar chance for us. Even if qualification is given to the top two in Divisions 2 and 3 (to cover the Division 1 winner already qualifying anyway and the Division 4 winner not being good enough, or even there not being a Division 4), sometimes we'll qualify that way
Qualifying is not just a numbers game, a number game that 14 qualifying spots under the present system is equal to 14 qualifying spots under another system and that we would have an equal chance under both systems.
I suspect that the nations league system will give a better chance to better teams than us, who don't win their WC qual group outright, to snatch a WC Finals spot
I suspect, means I'm suspicious that it will be more difficult, I don't yet have a case that I can bring to the court of public opinion, because we don't know anything yet. Nothing has been confirmed re the format.

[pineapple stu]

I introduced what was being reported in other media outlets here (http://foot.ie/threads/188522-Nations-League?p=1743651&viewfull=1#post1743651).
And I addressed it later on (the Sky Sports link), but after that, you went back to the start. :)

Anyways, moving back on topic.


I suspect that the nations league system will give a better chance to better teams than us, who don't win their WC qual group outright, to snatch a WC Finals spot
I suspect, means I'm suspicious that it will be more difficult, I don't yet have a case that I can bring to the court of public opinion, because we don't know anything yet. Nothing has been confirmed re the format.
If there's four qualification spots going to teams outside the top 16, then it's better for us at present. Simply no question.

Which is why I don't at the moment see how that can work.

But I still can't share your pessimism or suspicion. Platini's other reform - the Champions' League qualifying - has benefitted mid-ranking teams.

[Stuttgart88]

In one sense it sounds a bit like UEFA's version of the League Cup in England (whatever it's called now). The Euros is still the big one but this is a great consolation prize and probably has its own charms and merits. I'd like to see more than one promotion / relegation spot though. It'd be more meritocratic, and also it'd keep interest in the competition running for longer.

[pineapple stu]

I'd like to see more than one promotion / relegation spot though.
Definitely. But I think if there's four wildcards, then that hints at two for Division 2 and two for Division three, so two promotion spots seems logical.

It'd kind of give you the feel of being a fan of a third-tier English fan actually; kind of cool! We'd start out in Division 3, but we know we could rise to Division 1 (and not stay there all that long), and one bad season and we could even hover with disaster and a drop to Division 4. I think it's a great idea.

[DeLorean]

I just don't get the wildcard bit. Why would it be logical to give a qualification spot to the winners of a lower group? Would this not be unfair on the the teams competing in the higher groups that don't qualify?

[NeverFeltBetter]

I think it's a great idea myself, but it seems clear from other linked stories that exact format decisions are still a while away. I like what the original article suggested I suppose and by the time this actually comes around Ireland could have jumped up a few places to the "second" tier nations of Europe again. But I'd certainly see the whole thing as secondary to actual qualifying. If there was a team that grabbed a spot from Qualifying and "won" Division Two, I'd give the available spot to the next team in qualifying.

[osarusan]

I just don't get the wildcard bit. Why would it be logical to give a qualification spot to the winners of a lower group? Would this not be unfair on the the teams competing in the higher groups that don't qualify?

And whats to stop a team keeping their second seeding for the original qualifying, but not being too bothered about relegation to a lower tier of the new tournament, thus giving them another shot at qualification as a wildcard for future tournaments?

There would have to be a system in place to stop teams benefitting from high seeding in one qualifying, and from low seeding in another.

[paul_oshea]

The new tournament would not replace the current qualifying competitions for those major events, but it would award the four qualification spots that are currently decided by the play-offs.

Are they saying that the 4 European qualifying places for the World Cup would now be given to this new League? That would only benefit the big teams.

We would find it even harder to qualify for a world cup now.

Its a nice idea, but thats all it is. I can't see how it could be fairly executed.

The only way i would see it working to ensure everyone is competitive is those who have already qualified, start from the next one up, so lets say the top 12 places are in division 1 and 2, and division 1 and 2 are made up of 6 teams each, then the top 4 in division 3 would get the places. Thats about the only fair way to do this. Its a league, forget abotu semi-finals and finals, thats just a beta prize, the real thing is qualifying for a world cup.

Even if the 12 teams are qualified through the group stage for example, then it would be sprinkled amongst the highest placed teams in the divisions, either way it would ensure that generally the top teams would be winning the groups and/or in the highest positions in the league, so it would keep interest in both formats.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Nothing has been confirmed yet, and such a decision is for FIFA, not UEFA, to make.

[paul_oshea]

Is it not up to uefa how they allocate world cup positions based on the total number allowed to them by FIFA?

[NeverFeltBetter]

From an article Stu linked earlier: "It is believed part of the proposal includes European nations winning qualifying places for the 2022 World Cup in Qatar but UEFA sources say that would require separate approval from world football's governing body." If UEFA want to alter how nations qualify for the Euros, that's their business, but FIFA gets more power when it comes to the World Cup.

[pineapple stu]

Are they saying that the 4 European qualifying places for the World Cup would now be given to this new League? That would only benefit the big teams.

There's lots of articles, but all seem to have in common that wildcards would go hand in hand with promotion. If the top division is 16 teams, that means the wildcards are only available to the teams below that. That'd benefit us (for now), not the big teams.

[Stuttgart88]

Let's see. Intuitively I find it hard to believe that those teams in the bottom half of the top division (i.e., those countries most likely to contest the traditional playoffs) would accept lower league wildcards at their expense. My instinctive view is that this sounds like a super competition that will really spice up boring friendly dates but at the same time I just can't see it being anything but harder for a country like us to qualify if the traditional playopffs are dropped.

It could even open up the perverse incentive of deliberately losing to gain access to an automatic wild card from a lower division.

[NeverFeltBetter]

BBC article: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/26747394

It seems fairly clear that this is definitely going ahead, but it will be a while before firm details are known.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ultimately, seems a bit pointless...

http://balls.ie/football/great-news-for-ireland-nations-league-looks-increasingly-likely/ (http://balls.ie/football/great-news-for-ireland-nations-league-looks-increasingly-likely/)

[pineapple stu]

More pointless than friendlies?

[ArdeeBhoy]

More pointless than the Euros maybe?

As have said repeatedly, there's far far too much football generally and mediocre internationals are no exception.
More quality, less quantity!

Nice idea in theory, but WTF will it be fitted in...

[NeverFeltBetter]

...There doesn't seem to be any surplus of games. It's replacing friendly dates. In a group of four as some articles have suggested, that's 6 games, which is about the amount of friendlies Ireland plays a year anyway. In a larger group over two years, there's plenty of space for up to 12 games.

[pineapple stu]

For the record, here's the friendlies we've played in the last two years -

Serbia (H)
Poland (A)
Latvia (H)
Wales (A)
Spain (N)
Georgia (H)
England (A)
Poland (H)
Greece (H)
Oman (N)
Serbia (A)
Hungary (A)
Bosnia (H)

13 friendlies in two years. Spain and England the only two big ones there really. So if there's room for one glamour friendly a year, then we're losing nothing really. Even then, the Spain game was in America so probably wasn't a big game for the FAI (compared to having it in Lansdowne), and England's a bit of a special case.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Am instinctivley in favour of this. Sod the 'glamour friendlies'. They generally decend into some of the most unremarkable kickabouts we get involved in -often failing to serve the purpose friendlies are there for and failing to raise as much readies as had been expected. Qualifying for things -now that raises money.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Am generally in favour of the principle, just much smaller groups...with less games/football.
13 extra games in two years is about 5 too many IMO.

[NeverFeltBetter]

There are no extra games being proposed.

[Charlie Darwin]

If you strip out all the needless friendlies and scratch out all the teams that Ardee doesn't consider to be real countries, we'd only have about one game a year.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hardly. Since when did 4=1?

And not about extra games. We play far too many already.
Four friendlies/NL games per calendar year is more than enough.

[Charlie Darwin]

How did you arrive at this magic figure?

[ArdeeBhoy]

By the fact have been to more sh*t internationals than I care to remember. How about you?

Clearly you think everything UEFA/FIFA propose is wonderful?

It isn't and they're not.

[pineapple stu]

So the number of games a team should play has a direct relation to the number of games you're willing to watch?

Nothing to do with - ooh, let's say - what the manager wants? Or what the FAI (and their coffers) want?

Right you are so.

[Charlie Darwin]

By the fact have been to more sh*t internationals than I care to remember. How about you?

Clearly you think everything UEFA/FIFA propose is wonderful?

It isn't and they're not.
Yeah but what algorithm do you use? Do you notice by the fifth game of a season the quality drops, or are they just half as good?

[ArdeeBhoy]

I didn't say that(nothing to do with me or most fans for that matter), but most clubs/players want there to be less international football...so where do you fit say more than ten games into an increasingly congested calendar?

Right you are so, indeed.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Hardly. Since when did 4=1?

And not about extra games. We play far too many already.
Four friendlies/NL games per calendar year is more than enough.

Well UEFA certainly isn't going to reduce the amount of games nations play overall, not if they can help it.

Has somebody suggested playing 10 of these games a year? Or do you mean over two years, when we play around 12 friendlies anyway?