2018–19 UEFA Nations League

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yeah but what algorithm do you use? Do you notice by the fifth game of a season the quality drops, or are they just half as good?

I don't use any, but even you must be familiar with the adage 'quantity over quality'?
:rolleyes:

[ArdeeBhoy]

Well UEFA certainly isn't going to reduce the amount of games nations play overall, not if they can help it.
They will if the clubs ask...the CL is their ultimate baby.

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't use any, but even you must be familiar with the adage 'quantity over quality'?
:rolleyes:
So you reckon scratch teams play better when they have less playing time together?

[NeverFeltBetter]

They will if the clubs ask...the CL is their ultimate baby.

So, why haven't they already?

[Stuttgart88]

Maybe many of those internationals were crap because they lacked context? Or because we have been crap? That's the whole idea though, to have better and more meaningful games.

But I do have an open mind on the number of games we play. In general if we're winning I like them more! The August friendly was ridiculous, in particular. And most friendlies under Trap were snooze fests, but under Jack, Mick and Kerr I couldn't get enough of them.

[pineapple stu]

I didn't say that
Actually, you did. "Four friendlies/NL games per calendar year is more than enough", you said, and when asked to back this up, you said "By the fact have been to more sh*t internationals than I care to remember."

Back on topic, presumably the time around now - the first half of even-numbered years, when there aren't any qualifiers left - would see more games than other times. Again, not a bad idea. Probably the plan is to scrap the playoffs (when most countries play friendlies) and free up another international date there as well.

[Stuttgart88]

They will if the clubs ask...the CL is their ultimate baby.the CL is run by UEFA. The clubs have a strong voice at UEFA via the European Club Association. UEFA made concessions to ECA on international dates and windows and injury compensation etc. I believe further change to the qualification calendar is being discussed.

There will be a compromise but there is a limit as to how much influence the clubs can wield and both "sides" have just extended their cooperation agreement.

I think we may see something like the rugby calendar with distinct blocks of dates bunched together for internationals (rugby has November, spring and end-season. Is there a pre-season date too?) and uninterrupted runs for club competition. I'm not sure we'll necessarily see a reduction in international games though.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think we may see something like the rugby calendar with distinct blocks of dates bunched together for internationals (rugby has November, spring and end-season. Is there a pre-season date too?) and uninterrupted runs for club competition. I'm not sure we'll necessarily see a reduction in international games though.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. The rugby clubs don't like the blocks because it's a long stretch without a home gate, hence why there are off-weeks in the Six Nations. Having said that, soccer players can play twice as many games as rugby players so the windows wouldn't have to be so long, plus the big clubs are a lot less reliant on matchday income.

(There's no pre-season date, except when the World Cup is played.)

[Stuttgart88]

Martin Samuel in today's Mail would beg to differ:)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2589313/Platinis-secret-plan-alienate-England-faithful-plot-change-way-YOU-watch-football-doesnt-care.html

Funny how he missed the bit about the new nations League though.

I think Samuel is a good writer but he is an unashamed apologist for all the EPL's extravagant excess and hence sees UEFA as an interfering foreigner. He's almost like the Nigel Farage of English football. Not to mention that his antipathy towards Platini seems personal.

[Charlie Darwin]

I was a bit sketchy before Stutts, but now that I know Samuel doesn't agree I'm sure!

I don't think his article contradicts what I said though. You can see why Platini would like a block of time where all the focus is on international football, but the clubs needed coaxing to get on side.

[Stuttgart88]

My spirit has been broken on this forum in recent weeks. I haven't the strength to argue.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Actually, you did. "Four friendlies/NL games per calendar year is more than enough", you said, and when asked to back this up, you said "By the fact have been to more sh*t internationals than I care to remember."

Nice misinterpretation.
;)

[ArdeeBhoy]

So you reckon scratch teams play better when they have less playing time together?
'Scratch teams', like who?
All sportspeople are more inclined to perform less well if tired...

[Charlie Darwin]

'Scratch teams', like who?
All sportspeople are more inclined to perform if less tired...
International teams are scratch teams. They play together for like 5% of the season. Who said they were tired?

[ArdeeBhoy]

You implied they play less well...

[Stuttgart88]

International Heritage XI did OK in my recollection. Lack of talent rather than tiredness was the limiting factor though.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hah, that was only when we had 'scratch' teams...
;)

[Crosby87]

My spirit has been broken on this forum in recent weeks. I haven't the strength to argue.

I just got back from a long weekend betting college basketball 12 hours a day in Vegas. Maybe you should ask Tets or POSH to fly you out there so you can recharge your batteries with a nice massage. When was the last time you frolicked in the spring mist? Not since you went to Sweden last year I would bet.

[Stuttgart88]

Anyway, away from the surrealism, UEFA has approved the new tourney but details are still to be finalised.

I'd like to see similar thought given to European club competition, making it more inclusive of lesser nations.

[Real ale Madrid]

I think at times Platini has done a good job as president of UEFA.
He has introduced the champions route to qualifying for the champions league which has seen a Cypriot team into the quarter finals and teams competing from countries like Belarus, Denmark and Scotland that otherwise may not have been able to qualify in the previous structure.
This week long festival of football is really going to be great for football fans when it comes to qualifiers. Personally I can't wait to be able to attend an Ireland match and maybe see Germany/Spain/Italy etc on the night we are not playing.
And now this league of nations tournament to replace some of the God awful friendlies we have to put up with currently, id scrap the idea of offering places at tournaments for the lower tiers - let the tournament stand on its own too feet, I think the carrott of playing at the highest level possible will be motivation enough for teams.

[Dodge]

I'd like to see similar thought given to European club competition, making it more inclusive of lesser nations.

This new tournmament isn't more inclusive of lesser nations. It's a way for big teams to play more games against big teams. Nothing more

[paul_oshea]

Does anyone remember when the camera fixed in on hodgson when managing liverpool when he scratched his arse and then sniffed his hand?

[paul_oshea]

This new tournmament isn't more inclusive of lesser nations. It's a way for big teams to play more games against big teams. Nothing more

And also less opportunity for glamour ties for smaller nations or for smaller nations to play bigger teams.

[DeLorean]

This new tournmament isn't more inclusive of lesser nations. It's a way for big teams to play more games against big teams. Nothing more

But big teams play big teams in friendlies as it is.


And also less opportunity for glamour ties for smaller nations or for smaller nations to play bigger teams.

Do the smaller nations actually get glamour friendlies anyway though? They're few and far between from what I've noticed.

[Dodge]

Do the smaller nations actually get glamour friendlies anyway though? They're few and far between from what I've noticed.

Within space of about 15 months Ireland will have played Italy, Spain and England in friendlies. If those countries are limited to the amount of frinedlies, they play those opportunities will dry up

[DeLorean]

Are we not a bit of an extreme case? We get these 'glamour' games because of our diaspora more than anything else. It's a long time since we've brought a top team to Lansdowne for a friendly but I reckon we'll always have the opportunity to play these types of games in the States or wherever.

[Charlie Darwin]

Are we not a bit of an extreme case? We get these 'glamour' games because of our diaspora more than anything else. It's a long time since we've brought a top team to Lansdowne for a friendly but I reckon we'll always have the opportunity to play these types of games in the States or wherever.
We'll have England next year. The games outside of Ireland has more to do with the companies selling the rights than the diaspora - we could sell any of these games out in Dublin. We'd play Spain in Papua New Guinea if the maths worked out.

[Stuttgart88]

This new tournmament isn't more inclusive of lesser nations. It's a way for big teams to play more games against big teams. Nothing moreIt's easy to summarise it in a cynical soundbite but it has real relevance for countries like us: it replaces meaningless friendlies with meaningful competitive matches.

[DeLorean]

We'll have England next year. The games outside of Ireland has more to do with the companies selling the rights than the diaspora - we could sell any of these games out in Dublin. We'd play Spain in Papua New Guinea if the maths worked out.

Yeah, fair enough. I just don't think there's much we're losing by the new format. I think there's a bit of nit-picking going on. An England friendly will always be a possibility due to geography and so on. If the occasional (and forgettable) friendly against Spain at 1am is all we have to sacrifice then I'm in!

[Dodge]

It's easy to summarise it in a cynical soundbite but it has real relevance for countries like us: it replaces meaningless friendlies with meaningful competitive matches.

Your post was

I'd like to see similar thought given to European club competition, making it more inclusive of lesser nations

I don't see how separating nations based on coefficients is doing anything to make international football more "inclusive"

At least in the club game there is a possibility of smaller clubs playing big clubs

[osarusan]

Your post was


I don't see how separating nations based on coefficients is doing anything to make international football more "inclusive"

At least in the club game there is a possibility of smaller clubs playing big clubs

I don't think small nations are any less likely to play big nations than they were before. They still have the original qualifying for world cups and European championships to play the big teams.

Maybe not more inclusive, but no real change from before, except a chance for smaller teams to test themselves against teams of a similar level more often, and maybe win a few games.

[DeLorean]

At least in the club game there is a possibility of smaller clubs playing big clubs

There will still be actual qualifying campaigns where small teams play big teams. Friendlies are generally organised between countries of relatively similar pedigree anyway. Take the latest round of Internationals involving UEFA sides:


Russia 2-0 Armenia, Georgia 2-0 Liechtenstein, Kosovo 0-0 Haiti, Azerbaijan 1-0 Philippines, Lithuania 1-1 Kazakhstan, Bulgaria 2-1 Belarus, Algeria 2-0 Slovenia, Albania 2-0 Malta, Greece 0-2 South Korea, Hungary 1-2 Finland, Montenegro 1-0 Ghana, Bosnia-Herzegovina 0-2 Egypt, Czech Republic 2-2 Norway, Israel 1-3 Slovakia, Andorra 0-3 Moldova, Cyprus 0-0 N.Ireland, FYR Macedonia 2-1 Latvia, Luxembourg 0-0 Cape Verde, Turkey 2-1 Sweden, Romania 0-0 Argentina, Ukraine 2-0 USA, Gibraltar 0-2 Estonia, Austria 1-1 Uruguay, Switzerland 2-2 Croatia, Belgium 2-2 Ivory Coast, Germany 1-0 Chile, Ireland 1-2 Serbia, Poland 0-1 Scotland, Wales 3-1 Iceland, England 1-0 Denmark, France 2-0 Netherlands, Portugal 5-1 Cameroon, Spain 1-0 Italy

Obviously there would be less intercontinental games but fixtures similar to these would be likely to take place in the new tiered format, bar maybe Russia v Armenia.

[Stuttgart88]

Your post was


I don't see how separating nations based on coefficients is doing anything to make international football more "inclusive"

At least in the club game there is a possibility of smaller clubs playing big clubsI think it's inclusive because it gives lesser nations a chance to win something or to compete meaningfully for something. Previously that was the (almost) exclusive privilege of the bigger / better countries.

The traditional qualifiers will still exist to pitch big against small.

[Closed Account 2]

This new tournmament isn't more inclusive of lesser nations. It's a way for big teams to play more games against big teams. Nothing more

You have hit the nail clean on the head there. It's pretty much a "pot" lock-in, big teams will only play big teams, middle teams will only play middle teams and lesser nations will only play against lesser nations. Spain, Italy, Holland, Germany will be playing each other time after time. Some teams (perhaps Portugal, Croatia, Russia) will fritter around pots 1 and 2, we will probably be a pot 3 team with a chance of going up to pot 2 occasionally. We will play the same pot three teams time after time. I don't see how playing say Norway, Poland and Israel year after year is either going to help the team develop or generate additional interest in the national team.

By doing away with a significant number of friendlies they are taking away the chance for managers to expose their teams to different styles of football. If we got to another Euros or a World Cup, we mightnt have a chance to play say a pressing short-passing team until we were at the tournament, we could end up even more exposed than we were in Euro 2012. I would imagine there might be a lot of lot of heads of associations worried about filling their new national stadiums if this does happen. Yeah the games are, in theory, more meaningfull than friendlies, but I'm not sure it would be easier to convince thousands to fill the Aviva for a "top of pot three" clash between Ireland and Serbia than it would be to convince them to attend a friendly with Argentina, and what happens to national teams in the lower pots who blow it at the start and end up mid table (or mid pot might be a better term). If a team like Scotland are indifferent in the first 3/4 games are fans going to turn up for the dead rubbers against Azerbaijan, Finland and Belarus? Not likely in my opinion, whereas they could arrange a friendly against say Australia, Japan or even us and at least have more chance of filling the stadium.

[Stuttgart88]

There's no guarantee we'd play the same teams over and over. The talk is that each division will have 16 teams, but broken into 4 groups of 4, I think with H & A fixtures. So even if we're in the same division as the previous campaign it'd be unlikely (I'm assuming) we'd draw the same group of teams.

We'll still have two friendlies p.a. plus two "usual" qualification campaigns.

At the margins there might be a loss of the occasional glamour friendly but I think the most likely scenario is that the same standard of teams we play in friendlies will be played in a league format.

Why would there be dead rubbers if there is a threat of relegation?

I think it's a good idea in principle but obviously it depends on the detail.

[SwanVsDalton]

I'd still want to see the full details before rushing to judgement. On the face of it, the plan sounds exciting - new. I would worry about how it would be once the novelty wore off, however. Sounds a bit like a lot of the same teams would be playing each other in 2028 as they are in 2018. By that stage, there would be five final stages completed - will be interesting to see how they work and build the competitive aspect in mitigation of similar fixtures.

Only other worry would be like Edmundo above. With every game more meaningful, would emerging players still get a chance? Granted there would still be the odd actual friendly, but I'd hope managers don't feel pressured into playing safe.

[DeLorean]

Yeah, it would be terrible to play Poland over and over and over.

[Dodge]

I think it's inclusive because it gives lesser nations a chance to win something or to compete meaningfully for something. Previously that was the (almost) exclusive privilege of the bigger / better countries.


I still don't see how this can be "inclusive".

Winning the League of nations Division 3 may be fine for the countries involved but no one else will care about it

[Closed Account 2]

There's no guarantee we'd play the same teams over and over. The talk is that each division will have 16 teams, but broken into 4 groups of 4, I think with H & A fixtures. So even if we're in the same division as the previous campaign it'd be unlikely (I'm assuming) we'd draw the same group of teams.

You're a man of maths, so I am quite interested in seeing how 54* UEFA Nations go into divisions of 16. Maybe they do some sort of pre-qualification knockout eliminating 6 teams, but then what happens to these six while the "League of nations" continues ? I've heard that they might invite teams from other confederations to join - in theory if you got 10 guests you would have 64 which fits 4 16 teams divisions better. But which teams do you pick, what pot do they go in and would that not mess up other associations competitions (eg Copa America or CONMEBOL WC Qualification, or the ACN)? I'm not sure Platini will want to go down this route given he has been so vocally against things like Mexico being in the Copa America and an NZ team playing in the A-League (not that either are any of his business), but then again another volte-face by Platini wouldnt be surprising.

*assuming this thing gets off the group before Kosovo etc


We'll still have two friendlies p.a. plus two "usual" qualification campaigns.

Yes but, assuming we arent in pot 1, those will almost certainly have to be revenue generating matches for the FAI as I just cannot see the "league of nation" games selling well. Those 2 games will not be chances for the manager to test fringe players, try new formations or expose the team to different styles.


At the margins there might be a loss of the occasional glamour friendly but I think the most likely scenario is that the same standard of teams we play in friendlies will be played in a league format

I'm not sure we will see friendlies against Chile, Uruguay, Argentina, Paraguay and Brazil again - we've played all those teams in the last 7-8 years. I'm not sure we'll play teams either of that standard or of those styles again.


Why would there be dead rubbers if there is a threat of relegation?


It depends on how big the groups are, but if the groups are of of 5/6 (which is the current UEFA group format) then surely there will be some mid-table teams who, after a few games, will be certain of not being able to finish first or last. It seems unlikely that such leagues will go down to the wire and everyone will have everything to play for on the 8th (or 10th) matchday.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The divisions are too big!

For once I partially agree with GR, aka. D.Gardner on here...
http://www.wsc.co.uk/forum-index/27-football/896051-nations-league


Another view.
http://thescore.thejournal.ie/uefa-nations-league-explainer-1384574-Mar2014/?utm_source=facebook_short

[ArdeeBhoy]

Re-read proposed format for about the 4th time. Apparently there are smaller sub-groups of c.4 teams. Hurrah!

Well, for some potential common sense.
Not sure winners of the lowest league should get a Finals invite. Especially when they're liable to do badly when they get there?

And most Eng.views I've read are broadly cynical and even more against UEFA than me!

[Closed Account 2]

Yeah, it would be terrible to play Poland over and over and over.

It would but there is a chance something similar will happen in our 2 friendlies a year. A major reason why we played Poland is we had reciprocal friendlies with them (in Dublin in Feb 2013, in Pozan a few months ago), just like we did in the mid 2000s (away in Bygodzczc then home in Dublin) like we did with Serbia (in Belgrade after the Euros, in Dublin a few weeks ago) and like we will probably have with England. The other reason is, with the number of Poles in the region, there was always going to be a high demand for the away tickets at the Aviva. The two friendlies will have to be cash cows for the FAI and will probably end up being in home/away pairs. The number of teams that will generate away demand at the Aviva are limited (England, Poland, Scotland) so expect to see those teams often instead of a broader range of teams with different technical styles (maybe Ukraine, Russia, Montenegro) as these will be harder to shift tickets for and the FAI will need the money.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Good point about not choosing the opposition.

No disrespect to Polska, but bar WC & Euro's a friendly/NL game every 5 years is more than enough.

To that extent, the FAI should stay away from arranging fixtures wherever possible...

[Closed Account 2]

Are we not a bit of an extreme case? We get these 'glamour' games because of our diaspora more than anything else. It's a long time since we've brought a top team to Lansdowne for a friendly but I reckon we'll always have the opportunity to play these types of games in the States or wherever.

I'm not sure that is true. Look at it the other way, who have some of the big teams played in the last 2 years in friendlies?

Spain:
Chile, South Africa, Eq. Guinea, Uruguay, Ireland, Haiti, Costa Rica, China, Korea and Ireland

Germany:
Italy*, England*, Paraguay, USA, Ecuador, France*, Holland*, Argentina, Israel*,

Italy:
USA, England*, France*, Holland*, Brazil, San Marino, Haiti, Argentina, Germany*, Nigeria

France:
Iceland, Serbia, Estonia, Uruguay, Japan, Italy*, Germany*, Brazil, Belgium*, Australia

Holland:
Bulgaria, Slovakia, Northern Ireland, Belgium*, Germany*, Italy*, Indonesia, China, Portugal*, Japan, Colombia

Only those with a '*' are likely to happen under the "League of Nations" mandate, so even amongst the big teams there will be a significant narrowing in terms of likely opposition.

[BonnieShels]

But we will also play one of these big teams twice each in qualifying for WCQ and ECQ. Have we forgotten about that?

[Stuttgart88]

I still don't see how this can be "inclusive".

Winning the League of nations Division 3 may be fine for the countries involved but no one else will care about it

We'll have to agree to differ, so. Nobody outside Ireland gives a hoot about the LOI but it's still great if your team wins it. It doesn't mean there shouldn't be a LOI. But as things stand very few teams in European international football have anything meaningful to play for. That's why I think it's inclusive. The status quo is exclusive.

And Edmundo, no need to be sarky. I'm not really a man of maths and it's not beyond the wit of man to devise a way of making 3 divisions of 54 or even 55 teams if needs be.

I'm not fussed if we don't get to play a game against Brazil or Argentina or whoever, every now and again. They usually lack intensity anyway. But I'm not saying I'm right, you're wrong. It's a value judgment and in my opinion the idea of replacing friendlies with a league of sorts appeals.

The flip side of the "trying new players and formations" argument, I'd venture, is that a good manager should be able to get the right ideas across even in the context of competitive games. Strachan seems to have done this at Scotland. And it's not as if playing Mexico once every 4 years is going to fully prepare us for World Cup last 32 game, or tilt us towards tippy tappy. Ok, I'm being sarky now but how many glamour friendlies have really taught us anything in the last couple of years?

Neither of us has a crystal ball, but I'd expect a League of Nations game to be at worst no less attractive than your run of the mill friendly. Of course if we sink to lower status then yes, but we'd be getting what we deserve.

[BonnieShels]

Great post Stutts.

[WexCar]

Maybe I'm missing something here but why does everyone seem to think we will be in pot 3 and only occasionally pot 2. If pot 1 has 16 teams then (if it were to begin this year) we will be in pot 2 as we are currently ranked #19 in UEFA rankings. Are people expecting us to drop to the #30's over the next 4 years?

[Stuttgart88]

Yep, we'd probably be second division if UEFA rankings are the criteria. Hopefully we'll be pot 1 by 2018 :)

[BonnieShels]

But the rankings are only going to be the initial criteria surely.