Ireland V Germany(A) 11th October & Kazakhstan(H) 15th October 2013 - World Cup '14 Q

[Stuttgart88]

What's the significance of Turkey on Tuesday?

[Stuttgart88]

I wonder how Trap would have done in Moscow with Delaney and Clark at centre back?

[ArdeeBhoy]

What's the significance of Turkey on Tuesday?
See the Euro 2016 thread, to do with seedings.

I wonder how Trap would have done in Moscow with Delaney and Clark at centre back?
Badly. You might get away with one, but not both...

[mark12345]

I'm trying to think of the last time we've been behind in a match (for such a long time) and not made a single sub in the 90 mins. It was crazy. Against these teams which enjoy so much more possession our players will always be chasing shadows, not freshening it up with subs is catastrophic.

Agree. I couldn't believe Hoolahan wasn't played from the start, let alone brought on as a sub. Whelan played in his stead. Crazy selection, and I like Noel. He is a former coach of mine at Home Farm. Great coach to be honest and gave us a new perception on the game when we played under him. Ireland never would have won the game against Germany, let's be honest, but my biggest aggravation is and has always been, not playing our best players - something Trap graduated with honours in. Having seen what Whelan has done, or should I say hasn't done, over the last few years in an Ireland shirt, it is hard to see how anyone would pick him. Anyway....

But as far as the game plan, I give full credit to King for getting his players to play a short passing game. Coleman most impressive in this regard I thought. At the end of the day it just shows you how far we have to go to get to the 'start' line. We're not even at that stage yet to be honest. But we have to start somewhere and although it's going to take time, it's a journey that has to be made.

[Crosby87]

Is King related to Martin Luther King?

[ArdeeBhoy]

That's a bit like asking, is Martin Luther King related to Martin Luther...

[elroy]

Given that most of us watch EPL, I couldnt help thinking the other night as Germany completely dominated possession that how come the likes of a Crystal Palace against a team like Man U dont appear to be so dominated. Like United wouldnt be able to boss the possession and pin Palace in their half like Germany did to us. I think the gulf between United and Palace and Germany and Ireland is a similar comparison.

I suppose what Im getting at is, would the end result have been any worse if we actually tried to play against them (rather than just damage limitation)? Playing higher up the pitch, play a little more offensively? I dont think it would have been.

As I type this, I can think of La Liga games where I have watched Barca in particular completely boss and dominate possession in a similar manner. Maybe this point in itself is illustrating the need for change in the UK/Irish game.

[Stuttgart88]

Yes, I think that's it. I watched the game on Friday with 2 ardent United fans. They were saying that under Moyes and even Ferguson United play a relatively unsophisticated brand of football. They were saying they watched St Galen in the Europa League, a relatively unheralded Swiss team, and they played a far more accomplished brand of football.

I have always admired the central and Eastern European style of football and prefer it to the Latin style. The movement off the ball and the angles they create is a joy to watch.

Would Celtic against Barcelona be a mismatch of Germany v Ireland proportions? Celtic certainly put it up to them, and also Milan. I also thought Celtic were superb at home to Karagandy and said here at the time that I wish Ireland could play like that at home. The thing is, we probably have better players in most positions. I don't watch Celtic enough to be sure though.

But look at how Bayern took Man City apart last week. Yes, City came back strongly but that's like saying we could have drawn 3-3 in Cologne. 6 of the German team are from Bayern. City's squad cost a fortune.

[Yard of Pace]

But look at how Bayern took Man City apart last week. Yes, City came back strongly but that's like saying we could have drawn 3-3 in Cologne. 6 of the German team are from Bayern. City's squad cost a fortune.

Well that's the crux really isn't it? Man United aren't particularly good at the minute and are in a period of transition. Also a game against Palace is unlikely to get their players revved up to the nines.
We've been humiliated by Germany and Spain, both in games that meant a huge amount to those teams. Putting it up to them wasn't really an option, unless we could've flooded the defence, kicked them round the place and hoped for a lenient ref so we'd end up with enough players to finish the game. Our best players wouldn't get near their squads.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Would Celtic against Barcelona be a mismatch of Germany v Ireland proportions? Celtic certainly put it up to them, and also Milan. I also thought Celtic were superb at home to Karagandy and said here at the time that I wish Ireland could play like that at home. The thing is, we probably have better players in most positions. I don't watch Celtic enough to be sure though.

Despite their first leg win, Karagandy were awful in the 2nd game. Probably proportionately even worse than Ireland. And yes, Celtic could easily get humped by Barca in another CL game. They're very limited in that context, but if they can get 7 points in their remaining games, should be enough to keep them in Europa.
Not sure how much a mismatch Barca away will be, but if Messi plays we can fear the worst.

More interestingly would be who is better, Celtic or Ireland? Not much in it, but give it to the 'Tic by a cigarette paper !!
As for Barca, v.Germany;Barca have the better defence.

[brine3]

I didn't realise that Barca have a defence.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Maybe you should pay more attention...
:rolleyes:

[tricky_colour]

Is King related to Martin Luther King?

Descended from Good King Wenceslas I believe.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Credit to Stutts as Roi.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/selecting-republic-of-ireland-team-is-proving-a-nightmare-for-interim-boss-noel-king-1.1559480

Even the biggest fantasist isn't expecting Hoolahan and Reid in the same team though...

[DeLorean]

Well, let's see how he does in a home game. I think we can at least agree that home performances against decent teams have been poor, although I think we'll agree to differ on the first half against Austria. I expect well agree that home performances against the likes of Armenia and Macedonia were workmanlike and efficient rather than being particularly good. I know you don't get style marks for a win, but at the same time the standard of performance contains some additional information benefit.

I won't argue for a second about defending a 2 nil defeat. Even at 2 down I thought that a goal was there to be nicked and then it'd have been interesting.

You seem to think he deserves a free ride for the Germany game and I might have agreed if he had got the basics even half right. This isn't a 'Bring back Trap' campaign or anything like it, but if Gio was in charge the other night, picked that ultra negative team and tried to hang on for dear life to a 2-0 defeat he would have been ridiculed. Not bringing on a creative player or two, with our campaign dead and buried and absolutely nothing to lose, bar face, was inexcusable. I know you're not arguing this point a such, but obviously you're not as put out by it as me. I don't see why we need to wait until the game tomorrow to rate his performance. We can rate tomorrow night on tomorrow night, just as we can rate Friday on Friday.

I'm sure we would have lost in Russia if we didn't have Dunne, and I'm sure we would have lost plenty more aside without him. We could have easily lost by an embarrassing scoreline the other night without Forde on top of his game too. I completely disagree with the doc, usually such an optimist but I guess this is Sledge related, about Ciaran Clark. I think he has all the attributes you need in a centre back, aggressive, assertive, good in the air and vocal. He's 24 now which is young in centre back terms. He's improving all the time and those brain farts we gradually become less frequent I'd imagine. To be honest I'm relieved to have somebody of his potential taking up the reins post Dunne.


We can't compare a stand-in manager's stint to Trap's away games in the first 2 campaigns. That's a patently ridiculous comparison. But it was as good if not better than anything we have done in this campaign and he managed that by making mistakes left right and centre. Just imagine the improvement if he or another manager was capable of rectifying/improving a few obvious situations.

I'm not sure if that was aimed at my 'Trap away' comment but I've explained a few times what I meant by that. On your point though, our performance in Stockholm was incomparably better than our performance on Friday in my view, even allowing for the level of opposition.

[Stuttgart88]

Thanks DeLorean, I concur with all of paragraphs 1 and 2.

[paul_oshea]

I wonder how Trap would have done in Moscow with Delaney and Clark at centre back?

Thats a very good question stutts, I'm pretty sure we would have conceded at least 1.

I thought we actually played ok on Friday, for a back four that had never played before, and a team that included kelly which it shouldnt have really.

I thought the selection was bizzare but that the team performed pretty well overall, but some were poor. I would have started with Wilson left back and thrown Whelan in beside Gibson, the other calls were marginal as we werent going to creating much anyway.

Mark12345, did you actually see the game? Whelan was one of our best players on the night. I have often said how poor he is but i remarked(tongue in cheek perhaps) to stutts on the night, that Trap had been holding him back all these years, that ball he played over the top in the second half was class. Long probably would have had the pace there to get ahead of Neuer and take it around him, whether or not he would have scored is another matter.

[paul_oshea]

Is King related to Martin Luther King?

No, he is related to Martin King.

[SwanVsDalton]

Mark12345, did you actually see the game? Whelan was one of our best players on the night. I have often said how poor he is but i remarked(tongue in cheek perhaps) to stutts on the night, that Trap had been holding him back all these years, that ball he played over the top in the second half was class. Long probably would have had the pace there to get ahead of Neuer and take it around him, whether or not he would have scored is another matter.

Only just back from Cologne yesterday so catching out of the forum proper now but I'm a little surprised more hasn't been said about Glenn, as I agree with you. His best game in an Ireland shirt for an age, albeit in a role that utterly didn't suit him. He was disciplined and worked hard to double up on Schurrle - he and Coleman's work was far superior to Kelly and Doyle on the other side. In the second half he and Coleman also switched seamlessly at times to let Seamus go forward.

On the ball he was decent too - held the ball well, didn't panic, looked to get the team going forward. That pass to put Stokes away was a beauty. For me more composed and involved than McCarthy, and far more quality than Wilson who was quite poor on the ball.


Agreed to an extent. His mistake for the first goal should have been more determination to atone for the error with some of his chances...On the offside in the first however, he was not offside. It was a bad call by the linesman.

Fair enough I haven't seen it back. Didn't seem there was much complaints from the player's at the time, but I'll exonerate Anthony in that case. Still if his performance confirmed anything, it's simply that when Robbie goes we are in big trouble.

[Stuttgart88]

Yep, Paul and I were in agreement with the Whelan assessment. He actually looked a decent player. I know you cant judge a player's performance from a set piece but he was given a dreadful ball by Gibson(?) which he did well to control and put in a good ball onto Clark's head, leading to him hitting the bar. Whelan's general play was decent, his best in a long time. Credit where it's due, but I still wouldn't pick him!

Paul, I thanked mark1234's post because he is right about Friday being the first step in a long journey we have to take. We are starting from behind the start line, if that makes sense!

SvD, Stokes was onside that time. A tight call but the wrong one.

[paul_oshea]

So SVD, given that you were one of the many to praise Trap all the way through and defend him, and although its only one performance, with whelan i'm sure feeling he had something to prove to the public after dunphys remarks, but perhaps we werent getting the best out of Glenn all this time, and if thats the case perhaps we weren't getting the best out of more of our players, and perhaps we werent getting the best out of all our player, and perhaps we werent getting the best out of our players because of a system enforced upon them, and perphaps we werent getting the best out of our players because they weren't playing in the positions and formations they were used to? And perhaps with that we werent getting our best players either.

It is only one game, but Whelan passed forward more in that game and controlled it better than he has in his last 10 games for Ireland!

He was certainly by far, better than McCarthy, who hasnt really performed for Ireland bar the Sweden away game.

Don't worry stutts you don't have to justify your actions to me, even if you are a closet England fan and are more concerned with them than us at times.

[geysir]

I'm not sure if that was aimed at my 'Trap away' comment but I've explained a few times what I meant by that. On your point though, our performance in Stockholm was incomparably better than our performance on Friday in my view, even allowing for the level of opposition.
A comfortable enough draw in Sweden looked better but no way was it incomparably better. That's totally delusional. Also that result only looked good on condition that we got the home result. When you lose at home, it does put a hefty spanner in the away result. We didn't have a shot on target in Sweden as against 5 real chances in Germany. And in all our performances in this campaign, Sweden away would be the only one that you could argue the toss with.
Also you are comparing a default system that Trap reverted to, a fine tuned, tried and tested system against a middling team with one real spark, to a coach who just walked in the door with no experience at this senior level against a rampant first class team.
A Trap team would in all probability have lost by at least 3 goals (probably >5) with no chances created in Germany. We would have been hoofing from beginning to end.That's beyond dispute.

[DeLorean]

Whelan did play relatively well to be fair. That said, I would expect him to play a bit better in what was a less demanding roll that required less composure or craft.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I have absolutely no doubt that a Trap managed Ireland with a Trap managed system would have done no better than the King model last Friday, and could very easily have done far worse (as it actually did, at home). People expect too much of a man who knows he's out of a job in less than 48 hours, playing what are competitively meaningless fixtures.

[Kingdom]

Maybe it was just me (it usually is these days) but I thought that we looked to be lacking in the fitness and speed stakes. McCarthy in particular looked Whelan-esque compared to some of the Germans. Obviously Coleman's charge at the end was a good example, but in general I thought we just weren't at the races either in terms of mental or body speed.

[SwanVsDalton]

So SVD, given that you were one of the many to praise Trap all the way through and defend him, and although its only one performance, with whelan i'm sure feeling he had something to prove to the public after dunphys remarks, but perhaps we werent getting the best out of Glenn all this time, and if thats the case perhaps we weren't getting the best out of more of our players, and perhaps we werent getting the best out of all our player, and perhaps we werent getting the best out of our players because of a system enforced upon them, and perphaps we werent getting the best out of our players because they weren't playing in the positions and formations they were used to? And perhaps with that we werent getting our best players either..

Cracking sentence that. I'd say we haven't been getting the best out of our players since before the Euros, and certainly not out of Whelan although I do feel he's looked a little bit shellshocked - form wise - since pre-Poland. Poor Glenn probably felt more than a little despairing with Trap towards the end, what with him having to carry the midfield can despite publicly torching Trap's two-in-midfield after the Gdansk gutting.

He was definitely better on the ball than he has been in sometime - not sure if that was because he was out of the midfield firing line but, regardless, he played a lot better than his central replacement Wilson.

No matter how a manager is considered, once things go stale there's no going back - I expect the majority of the squad, if not them all, will play a little bit lighter now Gio has left the building.

[SwanVsDalton]

Maybe it was just me (it usually is these days) but I thought that we looked to be lacking in the fitness and speed stakes. McCarthy in particular looked Whelan-esque compared to some of the Germans. Obviously Coleman's charge at the end was a good example, but in general I thought we just weren't at the races either in terms of mental or body speed.

Playing the likes of Germany or Spain must be the mental equivalent of running a marathon. Checking runners, chasing shadows, making last-gasp desperate attempts to win the ball...add in the past 12 months and confidence being low, then I can understand why they looked a little laboured. Everyone will be happier once this campaign is over and it's all to play for once again. I don't think it's a fitness issue necessarily.

In terms of general pace though, I thought that side was probably one of the slowest Irish teams in recent memory. Usually we have some pacey outlet but there was none on Friday, outside of Coleman. Gibson, Wilson and Whelan are not particularly quick. Doyle, McCarthy and Stokes can gallop a bit but don't have genuine speed. Without Long, McClean, McGeady or Pilkington, we were definitely lacking in pace.

[DeLorean]

A comfortable enough draw in Sweden looked better but no way was it incomparably better. That's totally delusional.

I think the disillusionment falls with those who believe we performed anything near okay on Friday night. We were composed, competitive and solid in Sweden... we were no better than I'd expect from a team ranked far lower on Friday. The few chances (which were in total disproportion to the general balance of play) we created papered over a fairly depressing night for me. I accept expectations are at a new and hopefully temporary low. This is probably a simple case of you rating our performance the other night higher than I do, so we can agree to differ on that one.


Also that result only looked good on condition that we got the home result. When you lose at home, it does put a hefty spanner in the away result.

Well we're taking about the performance really, not the result. Those two results may have been seen as a package, to some degree, but the two performances can be separated out individually. Any shortcomings in the Austria game can be attributed to that game on it's own. It doesn't take away from the professional performance produced in Stockholm, even if it did make the result less encouraging.


We didn't have a shot on target in Sweden as against 5 real chances in Germany.

Selective statistics. Shane Long's chance in Sweden was arguably a better one than any of those the other night. Clark with a set piece header, Stokes from the far touchline on his weaker foot and a couple in the first five minutes of both halves while the German's hadn't settled into any rhythm. Fair play for making the chances and all that but that's the way games go sometimes. You don't always have to play very well for chances to fall your way. Plus, we gave up little or nothing at the other end in Sweden, compared to countless chances in Germany. I think comparing the games to this degree is futile but if you're going to compare chances created then chances conceded is also relevant.


And in all our performances in this campaign, Sweden away would be the only one that you could argue the toss with.

Well we've only had four other away games, and Kazaks/Faroes are hardly comparable... although we were were efficient in the latter, terrible in the former.


Also you are comparing a default system that Trap reverted to, a fine tuned, tried and tested system against a middling team with one real spark, to a coach who just walked in the door with no experience at this senior level against a rampant first class team.

Well no I wasn't. I'm was merely saying I think we performed far better in Stockholm than Cologne, in response to you saying otherwise.


A Trap team would in all probability have lost by at least 3 goals (probably >5) with no chances created in Germany. We would have been hoofing from beginning to end.That's beyond dispute.

Trap's time had come and gone, you have no arguments there. I do think we should have lost by far more than three the other night though in any case. I have no idea how many chances we would have created under Trap, or if we would have conceded more or less... but I wouldn't be convince that King improved things. He was more negative than Trap and was even more useless on the touchline.

Apologies for all the quotes. I hate those kind of posts myself but I felt I had a lot to respond to!

[Stuttgart88]

I think it's worth point out as well that had McCarthy had any finesse in his passing we'd have had two great one-on-ones in Stockholm. But I think Germany at home and Spain away are better comparisons myself. Although, the more I think of it, comparisons area bit pointless.

I'm not as negative as DeLorean about Friday, though I'm not going all happy-clappy about things either. Let's see if we can resemble a modern cohesive football team tomorrow. I hope we can.

[ifk101]

Kazakhstan looked (very) poor against the Faroes on Friday from what I saw. We should be comfortable tomorrow with the same formation and greater attacking outlets - ie two wingers + Hoolahan/ Reid behind Stokes. Don't see any real need to start Josh, Dunne, Keane.

[DeLorean]

For the record I wasn't expecting King to produce miracles... I was just utterly depressed at his lack of courage, lack of substitutions and post match interview. I really saw it as an opportunity to try some of our more creative players and go for broke in a non-reckless way, but he was too concerned about not being the guy that oversaw another 6-1 mauling or something along those lines.

He has fallen into a very difficult situation in one way, but a kind of pressure free situation in another. I agree tomorrow is another day and hopefully we can get the performance/result we're looking for.

[paul_oshea]

Playing the likes of Germany or Spain must be the mental equivalent of running a marathon. Checking runners, chasing shadows, making last-gasp desperate attempts to win the ball...add in the past 12 months and confidence being low, then I can understand why they looked a little laboured. Everyone will be happier once this campaign is over and it's all to play for once again. I don't think it's a fitness issue necessarily.

In terms of general pace though, I thought that side was probably one of the slowest Irish teams in recent memory. Usually we have some pacey outlet but there was none on Friday, outside of Coleman. Gibson, Wilson and Whelan are not particularly quick. Doyle, McCarthy and Stokes can gallop a bit but don't have genuine speed. Without Long, McClean, McGeady or Pilkington, we were definitely lacking in pace.

Thats the thing with this german team, I think in the whole game that coleman run was the only time we outpaced them. German teams were always big strong, physical and fast. Now they are all big men, very fast and also possess a natural skill level that they were lacking in the past. They really are the complete package.

[ifk101]

Some very slow players in that German back line.

[brine3]

I hear Mertesacker is still on the pitch and still hasn't made it to the changing rooms.

[Stuttgart88]

The thing about how the Germans played, in my opinion, is not so much that when a given player had the ball he was so gifted that his opposite number in green was under pressure. It was more that at all times the player with the ball had an option - and the Irish opponent was faced with a range of options.

It's as if every player on their team was asking himself "how can I make myself available for the next pass?" and also "and how do I make myself available for the pass after that?". The key was the movement without the ball. That didn't require pace or athleticism, though it always helps. Of course it also helps that the ball sticks to the guy given it, and that the guy given it can see where others have made themselves available. If it doesn't stick, or the guy doesn't see the options all the intelligent positioning can lead to gaps when the ball is unexpectedly lost. Even when they lose it they are "on" the opponent immediately.

They key is for everyone to have an appreciation of space, and for the guy on the ball to see space. Everyone must be able to appreciate the whole picture. Germany were a complete unit. It was the same in Dublin.

I'd love to know how that's coached.

The best we ever provide is the occasional good sub-unit, a little triangle here and there and occasionally we'll join up two triangles and look like we know what we're doing.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Having played fussball with Germans for a good few years, it's all part of a 'national psyche' thing. They're not infallible but expect and take achievement in their stride.
They expect success, though not necessarily next year, as they'd be the first to tell you the flaws of their current back 4 and half of them are not keen on Neuer in nets.
Though they don't seem to agree on an alternative. A lot of that is to with an anti-BM feeling, unless they are the last German team in the CL.

[Closed Account 2]

Maybe it was just me (it usually is these days) but I thought that we looked to be lacking in the fitness and speed stakes. McCarthy in particular looked Whelan-esque compared to some of the Germans. Obviously Coleman's charge at the end was a good example, but in general I thought we just weren't at the races either in terms of mental or body speed.

I agree which makes the lack of subs even more appalling. We had reasonable spells either side of half time, but by around the hour mark the team (midfield especially) looked spent. If he wanted to go for it he could have brought on Hoolahan and/or Reid, if he (as some suggest) wanted to keep it tight and defend the 2-0 deficit he could have at least brought on Green as a fresh pair of legs to close the German midfield down better. If he wanted to freshen up the wide areas he had attacking players like McGeady, McClean and Pilkington or O'Brien as a defensive option. He did none of this, it was a bit like a driver who knows he is lost yet still refuses to pull over and look at a map.

[EAFC_rdfl]

Pilkington was injured, and still is AFAIK, gone back to the club is he not?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Pretty sure he's completely out, as is Brady.

[Fixer82]

Pilkington was injured, and still is AFAIK, gone back to the club is he not?

That's what Tony O'Donoghue said during Germany match. And he was on the sideline so good oul Tony should know!

[IsMiseSean]

Anyone know the rules regarding yellow cards?
If memory serves me correctly Coleman & Whelan are on YC, will another see them suspended for the opening game of the ECQ?

[ArdeeBhoy]

With any luck Whelan won't still be in the frame for the next Euros...

[shakermaker1982]

I just want a proper side put out tomorrow night with players looking to play some football.

Forde

Coleman Clark Dunne Wilson

McGeady McCarthy Gibson Reid

Keane Long

We don't need 5 in midfield against these guys so stick with the basic 4-4-2.

[the bear]

Just play this team Noel, we might even learn something

___________________Forde
Coleman____Doc________Clark_____Wilson
_____________Gibbo_____McCarthy
_________________Hoolahoop
McGeady________________________Pilkington
__________________Long

[Stuttgart88]

Yes, we might learn how futile it is picking a player who has already returned to his club due to injury.

[Grafter]

How low could the crowd be tomorrow night? 15 - 20000? Carling Nations Cup attendance?????

[Crosby87]

And what about the friendly Vs Hungary? I guess if there is a new manager it would be a little exciting but there will be some empty seats for that massive clash. Rumors abound Stutts is going to tear his raincoat off and go streaking at halftime too which would make matters worse.

[DannyInvincible]

And what about the friendly Vs Hungary?

Serbia, you mean?

[Crosby87]

oopsie. that would be the indos error actually, is where i read it.

[DannyInvincible]

Just noticing Kazakhstan have a defender by the name of Mark Gorman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Gorman) in their squad.

Call him up, Noel!