Ireland V Germany(A) 11th October & Kazakhstan(H) 15th October 2013 - World Cup '14 Q

[tricky_colour]

Sorry Lads, were there no subs?

Yes there were 3, the Germans made 3 subs as many of their lads were shattered chasing the Irish trying to get the ball,
we didn't make any as our lads were so good they hardly broke sweat the whole match!!

[texidub]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HiGZZD5huo

[bennocelt]

Well its a common term for describing these isles.

I have no problem rephrasing it as Ireland and Britain, to please the PC brigade.

PC brigade?:rolleyes: tut tut. Common from British people more like. British islands? Nah.
No wonder most people on the continent think Irish people are British!

Anyway no subs, thats crazy!:confused:

[Stuttgart88]

I agree with dr peepee in the team selection being over thought. I found it bizarre to be frank, even if there's some logic to putting bodies in the way of their full backs. Before I'm too critical of King though I suspect he was just trying to limit damage and stay compact from the off, with Tuesday night being the occasion to let the creative players on the pitch.

I found it very odd that with 20 / 25 mins to go not one of Reid, Hoolahan, Long, McGeady or Pilkington was considered.

Otherwise I agree with Fixer above. The positives for me were that our set pieces were good, the players are allowed to take risks with the ball, we did create some decent chances, we countered reasonably well at times and Forde did well. Stokes' radar was broken, but I think he showed some potential. I thought Doyle had a thankless task but still looked a cut above anything Sammon could do.

We were up against sheer quality so there was never going to be that much learnt. We'll have a much better idea after Tuesday and hopefully we'll start with a more positive selection and use the bench well.

[kingoffifa]

rarely post, often read.

with dr peepee and stutts on this.
it was germany in fairness, anything other than a defeat would have been a gift from the gods.

i thought that king explained himself well enough in the interview on rte, admitted it was an attempt to contain them and try and nick a goal.
He didn't make a sub, which i found strange from an energy levels perspective, rather than "go out there andy and change the game"

There was a change in how we played, the ball was not hoofed every single time, and sometimes we got a few passes together.

baby steps people, baby steps.

[SwanVsDalton]

Think Stokes is getting off a little lightly here for a rank-bad first half. Schoolboy panic ball led to the German first, hesitant when put in by Gibson and laughably caught off-side while looking down the defensive line during one of our more positive moves.

He improved a bit in the second - looked more composed - and did well to force Neuer into a couple of decent saves. Deserves more auditions and hopefully he'll be more clinical if he plays on Tuesday.

[legendz]

I agree with dr peepee in the team selection being over thought. I found it bizarre to be frank, even if there's some logic to putting bodies in the way of their full backs. Before I'm too critical of King though I suspect he was just trying to limit damage and stay compact from the off, with Tuesday night being the occasion to let the creative players on the pitch.

I found it very odd that with 20 / 25 mins to go not one of Reid, Hoolahan, Long, McGeady or Pilkington was considered.
That's why I'm reluctant to be too critical as well. He's an underage manager given the job for two games. He's seen Germany win in the Aviva last year and is obviously aware of their undoubted talent. Though I don't agree with it, I suppose his rationale was damage limitation and staying compact. For his method, he must have seen some benefit in having Whelan on the right to cut out a threat as much as possible. He should have made some changes in fairness, Reid on the left, McGeady on the right and Long in attack. The fact he didn't suggests he'd have been happy with 2-0.

There'll be no logic to fielding the same team on Tuesday night. With players having played the entire game and some experienced players to come back in, I'd imagine there will be changes. At this stage I'd imagine: Forde in goals. Coleman and Wilson full-backs. Dunne and O'Shea in central defence. Possibly Gibson and McCarthy being the midfield two in front of the back 4. I'd like to see Reid given a game on the left, I'm not sure who might get the attacking nod on the right. Hoolahan then playing off Keane. There's is no place for a cautious approach. As long as the team in set-up sound defensively, not like a disaster in Cyprus, attacking players need to be encouraged and given the opportunity from there.

[geysir]

I'd be more positive after the game than before.The team selection was over complicated and the performance suffered.
Considering that handicap, we did alright and we have plenty of room to improve on that performance.
Stokes made his mark and should be in the squad for future games.

[jbyrne]

Stokes made his mark and should be in the squad for future games.

he gave away the first goal and fluffed two chances that robbie would have stuck away. he also should have played in McCarthy earlier after about 10 mins when another chance went wasted. i cant understand where this view that he played well is coming from at all

[legendz]

Think Stokes is getting off a little lightly here for a rank-bad first half. Schoolboy panic ball led to the German first, hesitant when put in by Gibson and laughably caught off-side while looking down the defensive line during one of our more positive moves.

He improved a bit in the second - looked more composed - and did well to force Neuer into a couple of decent saves. Deserves more auditions and hopefully he'll be more clinical if he plays on Tuesday.
Agreed to an extent. His mistake for the first goal should have been more determination to atone for the error with some of his chances. Stokes's is quoted after the match as saying "I had a couple of split second decisions to make and they just didn't work for me." Ah, that's the difference between being a top striker and not. When he was playing in the Premier League he used to make similar bad decisions. On the offside in the first however, he was not offside. It was a bad call by the linesman.

[geysir]

he gave away the first goal and fluffed two chances that robbie would have stuck away. he also should have played in McCarthy earlier after about 10 mins when another chance went wasted. i cant understand where this view that he played well is coming from at all
Stokes lost control of the ball, tried to recover the situation and ended up giving it away, Germany scored from a deflection otherwise the shot would have been saved, so yes Stokes made a mistake.

I said he made a mark, some positives, virtually his first competivive game for us and it's against Germany.
Considering that, he did well and deserves more future call ups. It's curmudgeonly to focus on what he did wrong

[liamoo11]

For the home game Id like to see wison play centre half with clark to see if we could start to develop a game where the centre halves are confident to pass the ball to allow us avoid constant hoofing from the back. Without that the midfield constantly will get the ball facing their own goal under massive pressure. Dunne and o shea have tons of experience dont see the point of them been involved and delaney did well but he does not have that technical ability and age is against him

Id like coleman to play but to sharpen up on the basics then we have a super player. Id have McClean left full. Couple of reasons kelly is just a stop gap, and O brien is a right footer converted from midfield but doing a good defensive job at the Hammers. McClean is not good enough for a wide attacking role. Could his undoubted abilities be harnessed in to a left full?If not then O brien to be rewarded for battling back from such injuries

Id have Gibson and MCcarthy as our 2 sitting midfielders. Easy because they are head and shoulders above everyone else especially gibson who was excellent last night.

Wide I would have mcgeady and stokes. I think stokes has the technical ability and bit of pace to do a good job and be creative as well as been a goal threat and offering decent defensive cover unlike doyle last nite. Mcgeady for me is made for that role great technically can keep the ball decent pace and has done well defensively.

Id have reid behind the front man just because he is getting more game time than wes but really i would be delighted with either.In the next campaign id like to think brady might grow into the role

Id have long up front. can hold it up, pace to get in behind. needs to be more disciplined. Hopefully he can be a goal threat with good delivery from likes of coleman, mcclean, stokes and mcgeady

[Stuttgart88]

I've felt that McClean could be a left back too.

Agree with Geysir on Stokes. I saw enough in his performance to think there's something there. The dropping volley was a poor effort, but there's no way could anyone say Keane would have buried it. The chance when he rounded Neuer was very difficult, although he scored beautifully from a not dissimilar position against Motherwell last week. He was indeed onside that time. I joked with Paul O'Shea at the time that it was preceded by the best passage of play we had put together in 2 years.

I thought McCarthy was anonymous but maybe that was the drink, and Paul O 'Shea's company.

If you compare that to the Spanish mauling in Gdansk I'd say it was a notable improvement. Then we barely got into their half and had only one timid shot on goal all night. Yes, we were way inferior to Germany but we created far more than we did in Gdansk and also than in Stockholm and Austria, both nowhere near Germany's quality.

Let's hope for more a attack-minded selection on Tuesday and then we'll debate the ins and outs after that game.

[wonder88]

I am not sure about McClean at full-back, he gives the team something different as an attacking player wide-midfield. He also always works hard helping out the defence. Gibson I think was the player who showed most passing ability last night. Sad to say that McCarthy had a poor match, can anyone justify selecting him ahead of G Whelan in midfield? It is good that people are getting a chance; so no complaints about Stokes last night, but we need to be honest as well and if he expects to start as a regular striker he should have scored last night. Planing to go to the game tuesday so hope King gives a few other players a start. Also Clark has to be one of the C/Bs from now on.

[Stuttgart88]

Yep, Clark is looking far more mature than last year and I think still has some improving in him.

[texidub]

Less of the doom and gloom lads.

Last night was a huge improvement on Trapp's team which played Germany not long ago and got destroyed, conceding twice as many goals.. at home.

Long way to go obviously, but all in all a positive result.

Well done Noel King!

[Stuttgart88]

Less of the doom and gloom

I'm so glad Ardee Bhoy introduced me to this website

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2013/10/11/fans-who-love-to-moan-missing-trapattoni-already/

Anyway, despite King's GUBU selection I'm upbeat. I gave Trap the benefit of the doubt for four years. I'll at least do the same for Kinger for four days.

[dr_peepee]

How about a Roy Evans style 3-5-2 with McGeady in the McManaman role and Coleman/McClean as Wingbacks...

[carloz]

Long way to go obviously, but all in all a positive result.


Im all for an end to the negativity around the side, but to try and paint a 3-0 defeat against anyone as a 'positive result' is just ridiculous.

[Stuttgart88]

How about a Roy Evans style 3-5-2 with McGeady in the McManaman role and Coleman/McClean as Wingbacks...
I love 352 myself, but I don't see it happening.

[Fixer82]

Im all for an end to the negativity around the side, but to try and paint a 3-0 defeat against anyone as a 'positive result' is just ridiculous.

Nobody is saying it is a positive result.
What we are saying is there are positives to be taken.

We got destroyed last night but at least we played more football than we have in the past 5 years and tried to play the game.
We created more chances last night than we had against Sweden and Austria combined.

Stokes looked bright, Clark did well, Forde had a stormer. So there are positives. A bad result but a better performance than we have been used to

[Fixer82]

Actually i have to say I thought Delaney did well too in his first competitive international

[carloz]

Nobody is saying it is a positive result.

:confused:
The comment I originally quoted said that it was a positive result

[Fixer82]

:confused:
The comment I originally quoted said that it was a positive result

ha ha completely missed that. apologies.
yeah it is no way a positive result.

3-0 might be a positive result for the Faroes against Germany but never for us

[brine3]

Volleying air is a Robbie Keane trademark, not sure he would have put away that ball that came off the bar any better than Stokes did.

As for the Stokes chance one-on-one against Neuer, if Robbie Keane was so good at putting those away at ease then he'd have done so against Lloris in Paris, we'd have gone to South Africa, and the Thierry handball would never have happened.

He's a great finisher, Robbie Keane, but let's not assign him mythical qualities.

[brine3]

Yep, Clark isn't great. He passes a ball straight to an onrushing midfielder at least once in every match. Did it in Sweden, did it in Dublin against Austria and did it last night.

We desperately need a brilliant young centre-back. For now I'd play Marc Wilson there.

[geysir]

Yep, Clark isn't great. He passes a ball straight to an onrushing midfielder at least once in every match. Did it in Sweden, did it in Dublin against Austria and did it last night.

We desperately need a brilliant young centre-back. For now I'd play Marc Wilson there.
How many mistakes a game does Wilson make?
Maybe he'll miraculously get healed at CH where in theory he will be better than Clark.
Replace Clark with a theory? that sounds smart,
and meanwhile we can all join hands and wish upon the creation of the perfect centre half :)

[brine3]

At least Wilson's mistakes are made under pressure. Clark's can happen when he's not under pressure at all and are mostly due to brain farts.

[liamoo11]

Yep, Clark isn't great. He passes a ball straight to an onrushing midfielder at least once in every match. Did it in Sweden, did it in Dublin against Austria and did it last night.

We desperately need a brilliant young centre-back. For now I'd play Marc Wilson there.

That sounds exactly how a young Dunne used to be talked about. You could always expect one awful mistake

[tricky_colour]

Agreed to an extent. His mistake for the first goal should have been more determination to atone for the error with some of his chances. Stokes's is quoted after the match as saying "I had a couple of split second decisions to make and they just didn't work for me." Ah, that's the difference between being a top striker and not. When he was playing in the Premier League he used to make similar bad decisions. On the offside in the first however, he was not offside. It was a bad call by the linesman.

He was in a difficult spot for the first goal he was being closed down and didn't really have a safe outlet you have to give credit to Germany there. Also perhaps we could have realised this and remained more defensive but we were trying to break.
And it was a bad decision by the linesman, which was all we needed when we were already out classed.
Maybe we should have hoofed earlier, there is a time to hoof.

[tricky_colour]

ha ha completely missed that. apologies.
yeah it is no way a positive result.

3-0 might be a positive result for the Faroes against Germany but never for us

Add of course they did lose 3-0 in Germany as did Austria, Kazakhstan lost by 3 goals too (4-1)
Sweden of course drew from being 4-0 down, so there is nothing positive in the scoreline.

[Stuttgart88]

Yep, Clark isn't great. He passes a ball straight to an onrushing midfielder at least once in every match. Did it in Sweden, did it in Dublin against Austria and did it last night.

We desperately need a brilliant young centre-back. For now I'd play Marc Wilson there.
The same applied to Richard Dunne until he was about 27!

Edit: just saw liamo's post saying the same. Sorry liamo.

[legendz]

That sounds exactly how a young Dunne used to be talked about. You could always expect one awful mistake


The same applied to Richard Dunne until he was about 27!

Edit: just saw liamo's post saying the same. Sorry liamo.

I'd have liked to have seen Clark get more games alongside Dunne. Didn't happen at Villa last year. Should it be considered for Tuesday? I suppose O'Shea and Dunne will start but if we are looking to the future, it'd be a great experience for Clark.

[elroy]

For me last night left me feeling that we really shouldve had the new manager in there for these two games. Look Noel King is in for a week, thats it. God love him, its not easy and one of those games is against Germany away. I like that he tried something different against Germany but it didnt work. He developed trap like delusional tendencies in the after match interview.

I liked how we tried to play the ball and not just hoof it all the time. Problem is when we did win the ball, it was usually very deep in our half. The options were a very short pass to another midfielder who were closely marked anyways or else a ball to the lone man which was usually Stokes. In summary, the outlets werent there. In theory what King was trying to do was sensible but it was all fine until we won the ball back, there was no option and Germany won it back.

This Irish team arent great, ya we all know that but we are better than that. We can play football we can put it up to Germany but 99% of the time they will beat us. Fine. But I would prefer us to try and play some football against them rather than camped in our half for most of the game. The few mins either side of HT were very encouraging.

I would have like us to play a 4-4-1-1 last night, with someone like Hoolahan or Reid playing behind the striker. It wouldve given us two outlet balls and one of those outlets at least wouldve been very comfortable on the ball.

[tricky_colour]

Just a comment on the second goal, too many players in the box leaving too many Germans free outside the edge
of the box, when we realise the problem the defense runs out en mass towards the player with the ball
and the Germans say thank you very much and chip the ball over them.
Like taking candy from a baby.

Back to a constant problem of not marking players, it seems the philosophy is we are incapable of marking them
and so just crowd the box with players, but it's not a clever enough tactic against Germany.

Again I assume the reason we do not make players is because we believe we a physically incapable
of doing so, but if that is the we could at least make an effort of mark some of the spaces were
their players are rather than where they are not. Love to see us try that in a game and see it it helps.
They could practice it in training, have one side mark players and another side just crowd the box and see which worked best.
Problem is there would be no big difference in class between the two teams, however we could form an A team
of the best players and B team of the lesser players.

[tricky_colour]

For me last night left me feeling that we really shouldve had the new manager in there for these two games. Look Noel King is in for a week, thats it. God love him, its not easy and one of those games is against Germany away. I like that he tried something different against Germany but it didnt work. He developed trap like delusional tendencies in the after match interview.

I liked how we tried to play the ball and not just hoof it all the time. Problem is when we did win the ball, it was usually very deep in our half. The options were a very short pass to another midfielder who were closely marked anyways or else a ball to the lone man which was usually Stokes. In summary, the outlets werent there. In theory what King was trying to do was sensible but it was all fine until we won the ball back, there was no option and Germany won it back.

This Irish team arent great, ya we all know that but we are better than that. We can play football we can put it up to Germany but 99% of the time they will beat us. Fine. But I would prefer us to try and play some football against them rather than camped in our half for most of the game. The few mins either side of HT were very encouraging.

I would have like us to play a 4-4-1-1 last night, with someone like Hoolahan or Reid playing behind the striker. It wouldve given us two outlet balls and one of those outlets at least wouldve been very comfortable on the ball.

" Problem is when we did win the ball, it was usually very deep in our half." yes and often it's picking it out of the
back of the net, but this goes back to what I have been saying, the way we mark, or rather do not mark.

We are so afraid of them we basically just sit back and ignore their players, I suppose the problem
is if we do try and mark their players we will get torn to shreds. But if you sit back too much you are
on a hiding to nothing. I look at the Germany Sweden match when the Germans were 4-0? up, did they
then sit back thinking job done and then get torn to shreds by the Swedes?
I think we would do better man marking player for player, certainly far better than having 3 making one
man leaving other two free to roam, that seems suicidal.

[DeLorean]

We generally played pretty well away from home under Trap, a simple point that seems to have been forgotten. We could have nicked a goal last night, we may have even deserved one... but Germany could have scored any amount.

King's interview afterwards was surreal. I was just saying to the folks with me that the third goal probably upset King more than the defeat itself, after all, 2-0 on paper isn't atrocious. Little did I suspect that he'd confirm my thoughts so literally and in actual words.

Not making any substitutions, because he felt that there was a degree of respectability in losing 2-0, was cowardly and more than a little pathetic. If that had been Trap many on here would be up in arms as to how little he rates or trusts our other options in the mold of Hoolahan, Reid, etc. My God like, at least Trap had the balls to play actual wingers.

The 1-6 at Lansdowne was horrendous, no doubt, but I don't think we should kid ourselves into believing last night was any better. That night I think the German's had eight shots on goal and scored six, including a number of long range efforts which usually won't fly in. Forde kept out a few of those last night and we were marginally more threatening in attack, no major difference really in terms of positives.

[CraftyToePoke]

King's interview afterwards was surreal.

Is it true he didn't mention Forde's performance at all in the post match interview ?

[DeLorean]

Is it true he didn't mention Forde's performance at all in the post match interview ?

Here it is...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fLYyZgRwb8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[liamoo11]

The same applied to Richard Dunne until he was about 27!

Edit: just saw liamo's post saying the same. Sorry liamo.

I fear Stuggart we are both of a vintage that we remember a Teenage honeymonster bombing down the wing playing right wingback for Everton! For those of you lucky enough to only know Dunne the glory years have a glance at this http://www.toffeeweb.com/players/profiles/Dunne.asp .

[tricky_colour]

We generally played pretty well away from home under Trap, a simple point that seems to have been forgotten. We could have nicked a goal last night, we may have even deserved one... but Germany could have scored any amount.

King's interview afterwards was surreal. I was just saying to the folks with me that the third goal probably upset King more than the defeat itself, after all, 2-0 on paper isn't atrocious. Little did I suspect that he'd confirm my thoughts so literally and in actual words.

Not making any substitutions, because he felt that there was a degree of respectability in losing 2-0, was cowardly and more than a little pathetic. If that had been Trap many on here would be up in arms as to how little he rates or trusts our other options in the mold of Hoolahan, Reid, etc. My God like, at least Trap had the balls to play actual wingers.

The 1-6 at Lansdowne was horrendous, no doubt, but I don't think we should kid ourselves into believing last night was any better. That night I think the German's had eight shots on goal and scored six, including a number of long range efforts which usually won't fly in. Forde kept out a few of those last night and we were marginally more threatening in attack, no major difference really in terms of positives.

That is a good point about Traps away record, his away record was excellent indeed I think it was the best of any Irish manager, it was his home record which was the real problem. I think Traps worst was the 4-0 defeat to Spain in Poland and technically Spain were not at home.

The only positive to be taken from the match is that Noel will not now be made permanent manager.

[Stuttgart88]

Hold on though, there isn't a single poster here who denies Traps away record. DeLorean is being disingenuous there. Trap has the best away record of any Irish manager ever. He also has the worst home record. And I don't think Trap played anyone as good as Germany in an away qualifier. Bari was very good, but years ago and that Italian team wasn't a patch on this German team. Nor were the French.

And it's only a crumb, I know, but we were monumentally better on Friday than the performance in Gdansk where we did nothing. One timid late shot by Keane is all I can remember. Did we even win a corner in that game?

Let's see what King does on Tuesday before the knives come out. I thought it was a bizarre selection but we had years of that under Trap.

[DeLorean]

I wasn't being disingenuous. My point about our away performances was in response to the perceived level of improved performance on Friday night. There's every chance we would have fared better in that game under Trap anyway, as we often did away from home. I really don't think it was anything to do with a new found freedom of expression.

I also think comparisons to Gdansk are a bit unreasonable. We were playing arguably the best team ever on top of their game, in a game they had to win at a major tournament. Their style of play is also such that we were never likely to muster enough possession to create anything substantial. Spain have done that to far better sides than us, including the Germans in the WC, although obviously the Germans made better use of their limited possession and defended better.

[Closed Account 2]

I'm trying to think of the last time we've been behind in a match (for such a long time) and not made a single sub in the 90 mins. It was crazy. Against these teams which enjoy so much more possession our players will always be chasing shadows, not freshening it up with subs is catastrophic.

[Stuttgart88]

You were saying people had forgotten about Trap's away performances, yet it's widely acknowledged how good his away record was! Trap wasn't fired for his away record though.

I think Friday's game is utterly meaningless from a comparative or analytical perspective. Germany were a class apart, less tika takka than Spain but equally adept at probing and probably better at using the full width of the pitch. That said, purely objectively, I think we did some things better than we have done in recent years. The real outcome of the debate will only become clear after we've played other teams of a more "normal" standard than Germany, probably a year from now.

Also, I think Traps greatest asset was our organisation without the ball. I think there have been signs that this has been diminishing of late. And in any event everyone everywhere is better without the ball these days. Traps departure doesn't mean we are suddenly going to start leaking like a sieve again, as per Stan. On Friday we played without the ball much the same way as we would have done under Trap, albeit putting more pressure on the man with the ball, as is the accepted style these days. We created more chances in Germany than we did in Sweden and Austria combined.

This isn't a defence of a Kings selection or the lack of substitutions. I personally think he got too hung up about stopping them and their full backs in particular. I always like to think the best way of containing attacking full backs is to give them something to think about defensively. If we had any two of Pilkington, McClean, Reid, Hoolahan, McGeady and Stokes (playing his Celtic-vs-Barcelona role, with Long central) in the positions Doyle and Whelan occupied on Friday I think we'd have countered more effectively without giving up anything on the defensive side. That in itself would have made their full backs more conservative. In theory anyway :)

[DeLorean]

I know it sounds harsh but in my opinion he really showed how out of his depth he was, which I didn't think that would have been possible so early on. He was basically counting down the minutes hoping to secure a 'credible' 2-0 defeat, by winging it in the form of doing nothing. Trap got hammered, and rightly so, for his decisions and lack thereof against Austria, but at least he was trying to see out a 2-1 win. By the same logic where does that rank King in trying to hold on to a 2-0 defeat just so he wouldn't look too bad in his brief cameo? It really was beyond belief and his interview compounded the mystification.

[DeLorean]

You were saying people had forgotten about Trap's away performances, yet it's widely acknowledged how good his away record was! Trap wasn't fired for his away record though.

I was saying that we had recent history for performing better away from home anyway, which would explain any perceived level of improved performance more than any freedom of expression King may have instilled, in my opinion.

[geysir]

I'm trying to think of the last time we've been behind in a match (for such a long time) and not made a single sub in the 90 mins. It was crazy. Against these teams which enjoy so much more possession our players will always be chasing shadows, not freshening it up with subs is catastrophic.
Hyperbole.
Yes it was strange/unusual, unprecedented etc, but it wasn't crazy and definitely not catastrophic. Where exactly do you think it went catastrophic after the hour mark?
Look upon the lack of substitutions as damage limitation by a stand-in manager who did alright on the night with a team who had been getting progressively worse for nearly 2 years.

On other matters
We can't compare a stand-in manager's stint to Trap's away games in the first 2 campaigns. That's a patently ridiculous comparison. But it was as good if not better than anything we have done in this campaign and he managed that by making mistakes left right and centre. Just imagine the improvement if he or another manager was capable of rectifying/improving a few obvious situations.

[Stuttgart88]

I was saying that we had recent history for performing better away from home anyway, which would explain any perceived level of improved performance more than any freedom of expression King may have instilled, in my opinion.
Well, let's see how he does in a home game. I think we can at least agree that home performances against decent teams have been poor, although I think we'll agree to differ on the first half against Austria. I expect well agree that home performances against the likes of Armenia and Macedonia were workmanlike and efficient rather than being particularly good. I know you don't get style marks for a win, but at the same time the standard of performance contains some additional information benefit.

I won't argue for a second about defending a 2 nil defeat. Even at 2 down I thought that a goal was there to be nicked and then it'd have been interesting.

[ArdeeBhoy]

At this stage, will take any sort of win and with a view to Euro 2016 qualifying, hope Turkey don't win on Tuesday.

Unless we get a very good manager, more by accident that design I reckon, the mantra of 'we haven't got the players', will be oft repeated in the next few years...