Traps comments on LOI

[Guitd]

Now that the FAI have a new managment team coming in this week Lets hope the FAI use them to reverse the negative comments by Trapatoni about the League and use them to be seen to promote the League in the future in a posative way ....

[RiffRaff]

Its certainly in the FAI's interest to have a stronger league and when you look at say the Scandanavian leagues, it would be good to know there were players in the domestic league who could fill in at international level if we had injuries, suspensions etc. Personally I would like the FAI to insist on 2 league players in every national squad right up to full international. We have players always in international trips who never play anyway, at least if there were a couple from the league it would boost interest and the managers would have to research the league and know what player they could use. Wouldn't be a popular idea I know

[TonyD]

Its certainly in the FAI's interest to have a stronger league and when you look at say the Scandanavian leagues, it would be good to know there were players in the domestic league who could fill in at international level if we had injuries, suspensions etc. Personally I would like the FAI to insist on 2 league players in every national squad right up to full international. We have players always in international trips who never play anyway, at least if there were a couple from the league it would boost interest and the managers would have to research the league and know what player they could use. Wouldn't be a popular idea I know

It would be tokenism in fairness, Far better to reach a situation where players are in the squad on merit.

[Sheridan]

It would be tokenism in fairness, Far better to reach a situation where players are in the squad on merit.
You think that's going to happen organically? There should of course be a quota of domestic-based players (at least five) in every squad. And if they do weaken the squad, well, it might focus the minds of people who wouldn't give a toss otherwise.

[Charlie Darwin]

Why is tokenism so bad?

[DannyInvincible]

Why is tokenism so bad?

I would have thought because it's disingenuous; to manufacture the appearance of something not otherwise sincere. Who wants to be a token? Isn't it preferable to make it on merit?

[Charlie Darwin]

I would have thought because it's disingenuous; to manufacture the appearance of something not otherwise sincere. Who wants to be a token? Isn't it preferable to make it on merit?
It's preferable but the world isn't a perfect place. It would be preferable if women and minorities had an equal chance of being elected to the Dáil, but they don't. There is some utility to affirmative action, no matter how unfair it seems to middle class white males. No to compare footballing ability to electability - I'm sure there is more of a merit basis to the selection of international panels - but we can still aspire to better systems.

Certainly it does seem strange that a player's stock with the international team rises with the simple act of being picked up by an English club. It seems logical that if Kevin Doyle or Paddy Madden is good enough for the international team within a few months of moving to England, there is at least as much merit in including him in a panel while he's a hot property in the LOI as there is in including Conor Clifford while he's toiling in Chelsea reserves on his way to League Two.

[DannyInvincible]

Affirmative action makes sense in a setting where greater access to opportunity permits, encourages and enhances further social progression, but what goal would it achieve exactly in the context of a senior international football team? I'm not categorically saying it is completely futile and will ultimately achieve nothing of substance, but I am struggling to think of how token gestures would truly benefit the league and those players from it selected to the senior team simply in order to meet a quota. I'd be more than happy to have these goals pointed out to me.

[Sheridan]

Affirmative action makes sense in a setting where greater access to opportunity permits, encourages and enhances further social progression, but what goal would it achieve exactly in the context of a senior international football team? I'm not categorically saying it is completely futile and will ultimately achieve nothing of substance, but I am struggling to think of how token gestures would truly benefit the league and those players from it selected to the senior team simply in order to meet a quota. I'd be more than happy to have these goals pointed out to me.
1: Forced normalisation of relationship between domestic and representative football, to levels taken for granted in rest of world.
2: Place urgent pressure on representative arm to foster and improve domestic game.
3: Puncture myths of vast disparity between standards of domestic and lower-league British football.
4: Enhance level of visibility of top players in league.

[DannyInvincible]

1: Forced normalisation of relationship between domestic and representative football, to levels taken for granted in rest of world.

But a forced relationship for the sake of it isn't a genuine one, nor do I see how it could have the effect of generating something sincere. It's purely superficial, cosmetic and is anything but "normal".


2: Place urgent pressure on representative arm to foster and improve domestic game.

One would like to hope so, but there's no guarantee. Wouldn't the representative arm be the one setting the quota anyway? They'll do what suits them, or what makes them appear concerned.


3: Puncture myths of vast disparity between standards of domestic and lower-league British football.

I'm not a believer in this supposed disparity myself, but lower-league British football isn't the standard of our international football team.


4: Enhance level of visibility of top players in league.

Maybe so, but for what aim? So they can be sold on to pastures perceived as greener, I assume you mean? Nigel Worthington was always keen to select Irish League players in his NI squads, supposedly for this very reason, but I'm not sure if this increased visibility of the "shop window" really did spur the opening of bulging wallets. In the case of some of those he selected, the spotlight might even have been to their professional detriment! :p

[Charlie Darwin]

Affirmative action makes sense in a setting where greater access to opportunity permits, encourages and enhances further social progression, but what goal would it achieve exactly in the context of a senior international football team?
I did actually address this in my last post, Daniel. There is universal acknowledgement in world football - even among elite sides like Germany - that the senior national team needs to serve a role in integrating future internationals, not just those players who are currently the best placed to achieve an immediate result. We had Conor Clifford promoted to the senior side under Trap in a non-playing role as he was earmarked as a talent who could benefit from the talent. Any idiot could have told you that Seamus Coleman had the same potential when he was at Sligo, so why wasn't he given the same opportunity?

The only difference between the two players was that Clifford was a promising player at a big club with next to no experience of senior football, whereas Coleman was a promising player with a couple of years of experience of senior football at a lower level. In light of the fact that a good chunk of the current senior team did their apprenticeship at senior level in the League of Ireland, can you explain why one is more deserving of the place than the other? The current international team features more players who came through the League of Ireland as those who came through the big clubs in England.


I'm not categorically saying it is completely futile and will ultimately achieve nothing of substance, but I am struggling to think of how token gestures would truly benefit the league and those players from it selected to the senior team simply in order to meet a quota. I'd be more than happy to have these goals pointed out to me.
Perhaps you need to use your imagination a little more then. I'm not suggesting LOI players are as good as current internationals at Championship or Premier League clubs. I'm suggesting that in terms of their future development, there is little difference and that certain players are earmarked for international development over others when there is little evidence to suggest it is beneficial. We have a good league here that produces a substantial proportion of our playing squad and there is a serious incongruity that said league is never considered as a direct avenue for our players.

[DannyInvincible]

Fair points. To be honest, I'm not as fundamentally opposed to the concept as the position I may appear to have taken, especially in response to Sheridan, might suggest. I'd love to see League of Ireland players fit seamlessly into the senior international set-up, but I think it would devalue their presence if it were merely to satisfy some token recognition. I suppose what I have difficulty with is an urge to try quantify the potential substantive (rather than obvious cosmetic) benefits, but that's always going to be nigh impossible anyway. It all seems a bit vague, uncertain or non-concrete - all very hopeful and "potential" - but I suppose that's part of the risk, or the sacrifice, if you will. Is the feared risk or detriment to the senior international team worth the alleged benefit to the league? If there was a simultaneous and serious drive undertaken by the FAI to help raise the standard of the league, I think my arms would be more open to the prospect of placing League of Ireland players in the senior international squad for reasons other than pure merit. It would have to be part of a broader project of improvement.

[SeanDrog]

I think people are so annoyed with Trappatoni at this stage that no matter what he says he'll get crucified. The point that Sweden and especially Austria have a big advantage in having much stronger leagues than we do in terms of producing players for the national team would strike me as spot on. We rely massively on England to develop our players. We'll never get to a point where we can retain all our players at home, but a stronger league could develop more players to a higher level before they go overseas and the national side would inevitably benefit.

Sack Trap for saying this? I'd rather the FAI actually produced a strategy for the development of the league and coaching in general for the country.

Hey hey hey ... Who do you think you are ! Spoiling a good indignation thread with rational arguments and considered points?

Shame on you MrA ... Shame .

On traps comments I was disgusted tbh, I see your point MrA but the fact was he was the international manager and shouldn't be saying this (no matter how much he might believe it). The fact is we have a league that has to fight tooth and nail to exist. His comments only gave the bar stoolers more ammo to dismiss us.