Jack Charlton

[Royal rover]

i always found we never saw the best of Sheridan under Charlton - i remember he came against Spain in Dublin in 1993 , when we were 3 goals down , he looked like a lad who could play, i thought he was a great midfielder when he played for Wednesday in the early 90's , and he was instrumental in beating united in the league cup in 92, Wednesday were a decent premiership team in the early 90's , he also gave a mom performance against Bolivia prior to the World cup in 1994

[Fixer82]

i always found we never saw the best of Sheridan under Charlton - i remember he came against Spain in Dublin in 1993 , when we were 3 goals down , he looked like a lad who could play, i thought he was a great midfielder when he played for Wednesday in the early 90's , and he was instrumental in beating united in the league cup in 92, Wednesday were a decent premiership team in the early 90's , he also gave a mom performance against Bolivia prior to the World cup in 1994

Sheridan was a class footballer! A real playmaker.

[OwlsFan]

i always found we never saw the best of Sheridan under Charlton - i remember he came against Spain in Dublin in 1993 , when we were 3 goals down , he looked like a lad who could play, i thought he was a great midfielder when he played for Wednesday in the early 90's , and he was instrumental in beating united in the league cup in 92, Wednesday were a decent premiership team in the early 90's , he also gave a mom performance against Bolivia prior to the World cup in 1994

1991 was the Final where they beat Man U. Class passer of a ball ok but lacked speed and of course his style of play and lack of physicality didn't suit Big J's up and at 'em approach. Not a box to box midfielder.

[OwlsFan]

Happy birthday to Jack. 78 today.

[geysir]

From somewhere out in the world, there comes a reply, "thanks Eagle".

[Eminence Grise]

More likely 'shuddup. Yull scare tha bluddy fish!'

[Paddy Garcia]

i always found we never saw the best of Sheridan under Charlton - i remember he came against Spain in Dublin in 1993 , when we were 3 goals down , he looked like a lad who could play, i thought he was a great midfielder when he played for Wednesday in the early 90's , and he was instrumental in beating united in the league cup in 92, Wednesday were a decent premiership team in the early 90's , he also gave a mom performance against Bolivia prior to the World cup in 1994

In fact he scored a goal that day - and it was the goal that put us through on goal difference.

[pineapple stu]

On goals scored!

[OwlsFan]

From somewhere out in the world, there comes a reply, "thanks Eagle".

:) I didn't say "Happy birthday Jack". I said "Happy birthday to Jack".

I remember a time, not sure if it applied on the international scene, when placings were decided on so-called goal average as opposed to goal difference (i.e. the number of goals scored was divided by the number of goals conceded so 50/25 would have finished ahead of 80/41. The comments on Sheridan's goal against Spain reminded of that.

How's that for a conversation stopper?

[BonnieShels]

:) I didn't say "Happy birthday Jack". I said "Happy birthday to Jack".

I remember a time, not sure if it applied on the international scene, when placings were decided on so-called goal average as opposed to goal difference (i.e. the number of goals scored was divided by the number of goals conceded so 50/25 would have finished ahead of 80/41. The comments on Sheridan's goal against Spain reminded of that.

How's that for a conversation stopper?

Pretty wonderful though I think as soon as Tets and Dodge see it it will pick right up again.

[DeLorean]

A little interview (http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/jack-charlton-i-didnt-retire-i-got-sacked-really-34424666.html) with Charlton published a couple of day ago.


I had heard about the Bob Paisley thing at some stage but probably didn't fully appreciate the significance of it. It got me digging a small bit deeper and I came across this interesting piece:

BOB PAISLEY: THE GREATEST MANAGER IRELAND NEVER HAD (http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2015/03/bob-paisley-the-greatest-manager-ireland-never-had/)

[OwlsFan]

A little interview (http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/jack-charlton-i-didnt-retire-i-got-sacked-really-34424666.html) with Charlton published a couple of day ago.


I had heard about the Bob Paisley thing at some stage but probably didn't fully appreciate the significance of it. It got me digging a small bit deeper and I came across this interesting piece:

BOB PAISLEY: THE GREATEST MANAGER IRELAND NEVER HAD (http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2015/03/bob-paisley-the-greatest-manager-ireland-never-had/)

We got the greatest instead.

[DeLorean]

No doubt. It must have been tough to take (for everybody?) at the time though surely?

[geysir]

It was one of the biggest brain farts in football history at the time, to choose Charlton over Bob Paisley. I was dumbfounded by the decision. Charlton was a plodder compared to the football genius of Paisley.
But as it turned out, Bob was already showing early sign of a serious chronic nerve disease, his brain function was affected and he degenerated rapidly, within a year or two.
Charlton just deteriorated at a much slower rate.

[OwlsFan]

No doubt. It must have been tough to take (for everybody?) at the time though surely?

Not for me. I knew Charlton would be a success (he had been that almost unique thing: a successful Sheffield Wednesday manager). I kept the articles by Con Houlihan castigating the appointment of Charlton and sent it back to him two years later :) All Paisley had known was Liverpool (and action in WW2 incidentally). He had worked under Shankly and then stepped in to his shoes. I am not sure he would have succeeded with us in a totally different environment. A better coach no doubt but the big Geordie was much more suited to the Irish position ---- but we'll never know.

[thischarmingman]

I kept the articles by Con Houlihan castigating the appointment of Charlton and sent it back to him two years later :).

http://i.imgur.com/pISpjsb.png

[geysir]

Not for me. I knew Charlton would be a success (he had been that almost unique thing: a successful Sheffield Wednesday manager). I kept the articles by Con Houlihan castigating the appointment of Charlton and sent it back to him two years later :) All Paisley had known was Liverpool (and action in WW2 incidentally). He had worked under Shankly and then stepped in to his shoes. I am not sure he would have succeeded with us in a totally different environment. A better coach no doubt but the big Geordie was much more suited to the Irish position ---- but we'll never know.
It doesn't demean Charton's subsequent brilliant achievements with Ireland one little bit by stating the bleedin' obvious glaring fact that as decent as Charlton was as a club manager he was not in the same league as Bob Paisley and nowhere near it.
Bob succeeded God and did a better job. It is one of the most astonishing aspects of football history that this manager is so underrated when in any discussion of the all time greats, his name should be mentioned seriously.

[seanfhear]

Paisley certainly was a great Liverpool manager. It was a great honour for Ireland that such a man would put himself up for the Irish job.

[DeLorean]

Bob succeeded God and did a better job.

He won more alright but I think the scale of their particular jobs were almost incomparable. Liverpool were slumming it out in Division 2 for a few years when Shankly took over. If somebody built my house from the ground up I wouldn't turn around and give more credit to the guy that painted it. :)


It is one of the most astonishing aspects of football history that this manager is so underrated when in any discussion of the all time greats, his name should be mentioned seriously.

I think this might be one of those situations where it's noted so often that somebody is underrated that he's not actually underrated at all, a bit like Denis Irwin (or Donnchadh Walsh for GAA fans). Paisley is mentioned in most conversations I hear to be honest - himself, Clough, Busby, Shankly and Ferguson (in no particular order) are probably the five really outstanding British managers? Is anybody else deserving of a serious mention? Only Ancelotti has won as many European Cups as Paisley so he's always going to be in the conversation I think.

[geysir]

He didn't better Shankly of course but Paisley also helped build Liverpool from the ashes and without him much would have been missing from Liverpool's game. At least he improved on the situation he took over after Shankly, where most would struggle, taking over from an icon of the game.
Paisley is not just one of the greatest coaches/ managers in British history, but would fit into many a top 10 of world coaches/managers list. Not just for his record at the helm but also the 20 years before that. I don't know where Jack would be ranked then.
My point relates to the question, that at the particular time in football history when Ireland were looking for a manager, Bob Paisley was God at that time, Jack was decent but not in the same league.

[DeLorean]

Paisley is not just one of the greatest coaches/ managers in British history, but would fit into many a top 10 of world coaches/managers list.

I wouldn't disagree with that, I just kept it simple by naming the other British contenders* as he's very much amongst them. Three European Cups is enough to cement his name on any list really, domestically and internationally. I don't think that's overlooked though, I suppose that was my point.

*Edit- I forgot Jock Stein.

[snowball]

He won more alright but I think the scale of their particular jobs were almost incomparable. Liverpool were slumming it out in Division 2 for a few years when Shankly took over. If somebody built my house from the ground up I wouldn't turn around and give more credit to the guy that painted it. :)



I think this might be one of those situations where it's noted so often that somebody is underrated that he's not actually underrated at all, a bit like Denis Irwin (or Donnchadh Walsh for GAA fans). Paisley is mentioned in most conversations I hear to be honest - himself, Clough, Busby, Shankly and Ferguson (in no particular order) are probably the five really outstanding British managers? Is anybody else deserving of a serious mention? Only Ancelotti has won as many European Cups as Paisley so he's always going to be in the conversation I think.

Depends on how you measure it really. Think you have to at least consider Joe Fagan (Treble winner), Kenny Dalglish (League titles with two different clubs), Bill Nicholson (longevity and vast array of trophies) and Don Revie (a legacy tarnish by managing England badly).

That is just 50's onwards as well.

[DeLorean]

I think the gap between the six I named and those would be significant enough from what I know. I don't think any of those could make a genuine case for being the outright greatest, whereas the six I mentioned probably could. Ferguson's achievements at Manchester United would probably outweigh Fagan and Nicholson's put together, seeing as you mentioned trebles and longevity, and that's without even considering his borderline miracles at Aberdeen. All a matter of opinion of course and I wouldn't be particularly well versed on some of their achievements anyway.


Depends on how you measure it really.

Interesting you say that as I came across this. (http://footballpantheon.com/2011/07/the-50-greatest-managers-of-all-time/7/)

This is the list they came up with, Robbie Brady even gets a mention in the introduction.

The 50 greatest managers of all time. (http://footballpantheon.com/2011/07/the-50-greatest-managers-of-all-time/)

[snowball]

I think the gap between the six I named and those would be significant enough from what I know. I don't think any of those could make a genuine case for being the outright greatest, whereas the six I mentioned probably could. Ferguson's achievements at Manchester United would probably outweigh Fagan and Nicholson's put together, seeing as you mentioned trebles and longevity, and that's without even considering his borderline miracles at Aberdeen. All a matter of opinion of course and I wouldn't be particularly well versed on some of their achievements anyway.



Interesting you say that as I came across this. (http://footballpantheon.com/2011/07/the-50-greatest-managers-of-all-time/7/)

This is the list they came up with, Robbie Brady even gets a mention in the introduction.

The 50 greatest managers of all time. (http://footballpantheon.com/2011/07/the-50-greatest-managers-of-all-time/)

In my own opinion it is between Paisley and Ferguson for top spot. I threw the rest out there as they would make up the rest of a top ten.

Interesting list. I don't agree with how it is weighted but it comes pretty close to matching my own opinions on the British managers at least.

[OwlsFan]

I think the gap between the six I named and those would be significant enough from what I know. I don't think any of those could make a genuine case for being the outright greatest, whereas the six I mentioned probably could. Ferguson's achievements at Manchester United would probably outweigh Fagan and Nicholson's put together, seeing as you mentioned trebles and longevity, and that's without even considering his borderline miracles at Aberdeen. All a matter of opinion of course and I wouldn't be particularly well versed on some of their achievements anyway.



Interesting you say that as I came across this. (http://footballpantheon.com/2011/07/the-50-greatest-managers-of-all-time/7/)

This is the list they came up with, Robbie Brady even gets a mention in the introduction.

The 50 greatest managers of all time. (http://footballpantheon.com/2011/07/the-50-greatest-managers-of-all-time/)

Ferguson No. 1 ?? It's all relative really. He was after all the manager of the biggest club side in the world. Personally I would go for Jim McLaughlin followed by Jack Charlton but perhaps there is a hint of bias there.

If you gave me a choice of manager between Revie, Shankly, Clough, Ferguson or Paisley, I'd go Shankly, Clough, Revie, Ferguson and Paisley in that order.

[DeLorean]

So because Ferguson managed the biggest club in the world (debatable), it more or less rules him out of the running regardless of how well he did there? They had gone over twenty years without a League title when he took over, a period that also included a relegation. Their biggest club in the world status obviously wasn't much use to them during those decades.

With the exception of Dundee United in 1983, his Aberdeen side are still the only team to have won the Championship in Scotland outside of the Old Firm in the last fifty years, and they proved it wasn't a fluke by doing it three times, adding four Scottish Cups, a League Cup and even European success (beating the actual biggest club in the world in the final). Altogether, ten trophies in eight years with Aberdeen! And that was after he dragged St. Mirren through two divisions of Scottish football. Even if he retired after Aberdeen he'd deserve to be mentioned amongst the greats, never mind throwing 28 major trophies at United into the mix.

I'd love to know what measure you're using to arrive at the conclusion that Don Revie deserves greater recognition, other than personal preference (bias/prejudice)? I know he brought Leeds from the second tier to eventual champions. I suppose your top three have all done that, Clough even managed it with two clubs, so maybe that weighs very heavily for you. I'm surprised you didn't throw Big Ron into the mix. :)

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/12/03/article-1091545-0025683300000258-185_468x404.jpg

[DeLorean]

Johnny Giles talks Charlton on Off The Ball last night. (http://offtheball.newstalk.com/player/podcasts/-/Football_with_John_Giles/125069/1/giles_on_jack_beating_him_to_the_ireland_gig_leice ster)

[OwlsFan]

Johnny Giles talks Charlton on Off The Ball last night. (http://offtheball.newstalk.com/player/podcasts/-/Football_with_John_Giles/125069/1/giles_on_jack_beating_him_to_the_ireland_gig_leice ster)

Certainly won't be listening to the jealously which will be on offer there.

I suppose I rate Don Revie because he was the top manager during my adolescent days and he brought Leeds from obscurity to be one of the top teams in Europe as did Brian Clough (albeit not at Leeds). Ferguson eventually arrived on the scene (after 6 years ?) with a couple of last minute goals at Old Trafford against Sheffield Wednesday to set up the title win with Eric Cantona and the appearance of Scoles, Giggs, Beckham etc from the youth side. I think he was lucky with their arrival and then with the massive wealth generated by the Champions League, Man U maintained its dominance. That said, his performance at Aberdeen was phenomenal and to continue to win the Premiership (with two CL's) is deserving of great praise. Still his side lost a league cup final in 1991 to Sheffield Wednesday (first trophy in almost 60 years) so he must be brutal!

[DeLorean]

And Big Ron repeated the trick with Villa three years later, depriving Fergie of a (unique?) domestic treble.

Giles comes across pretty well I think.

[geysir]

Johnny Giles talks Charlton on Off The Ball last night. (http://offtheball.newstalk.com/player/podcasts/-/Football_with_John_Giles/125069/1/giles_on_jack_beating_him_to_the_ireland_gig_leice ster)
I listened to it last night and the FAI hit squad went about their business in a bizarre manner, interviewing suspects, making promises willy nilly and ended up nominating a hatful of names to be voted upon by the FAI committee and the whole circus was to be held almost in the full glare of the media.
When you think about it, only the FAI could set up a set of incredible circumstances so that they missed hitting the barn door with a banjo and failed to get a world class Paisley nominated.
Giles made the point that if they had just come back and nominated Charlton, there would hardly have been any rumpus made. It would have regarded as a good appointment.

[pineapple stu]

Ferguson No. 1 ?? It's all relative really. He was after all the manager of the biggest club side in the world.
That's harsh. He made them one of the biggest club sides in the world (though even in their doldrum periods, they obviously had huge domestic support)

And the Aberdeen achievements were exceptional.

[OwlsFan]

I listened to it last night and the FAI hit squad went about their business in a bizarre manner, interviewing suspects, making promises willy nilly and ended up nominating a hatful of names to be voted upon by the FAI committee and the whole circus was to be held almost in the full glare of the media.
When you think about it, only the FAI could set up a set of incredible circumstances so that they missed hitting the barn door with a banjo and failed to get a world class Paisley nominated.
Giles made the point that if they had just come back and nominated Charlton, there would hardly have been any rumpus made. It would have regarded as a good appointment.

Well, they didn't miss hitting the barn door. They came away with in Jack. As I said earlier, I think Jack personality wise was totally suited to the Irish job and he had also had a few other coaching jobs prior to that. Paisley was born and bred Liverpool and while he may technically have been a better coach, I am sure not sure he would have been suited to the totally different environment that was Ireland at the time. I just don't see his character fitting in to the job but it's all speculation.


That's harsh. He made them one of the biggest club sides in the world (though even in their doldrum periods, they obviously had huge domestic support)

And the Aberdeen achievements were exceptional.

Agree about Aberdeen.

Man U were huge even with all those seasons in the "wilderness" (including a relegation to the old Division One - can't remember who the unfortunate manager was at the time). You'll find as many Man U supporters my age brought up on Law, Best, Charlton etc as you will the new generation brought up on Giggs, Cantona, Keane etc. I was just reading in the paper today that they're ready to splash out again this summer.

[pineapple stu]

Man U were huge even with all those seasons in the "wilderness"
Well ok - I probably phrased that badly.

But Ferguson took over a mundane team; Wiki says they "recovered" to finish 11th in his first season*. It took a little bit of time, but he built it up to be the dominant club of the 90s/00s. At the time, if you'd known what was to come in football in general (money washing around; success breeding success), you'd have expected Liverpool to be the dominant club. So even the job at United was a great achievement - and of course, you can see how quickly it's dropped away since he left.


* - as an aside, I see Utd lost 2-0 to Shamrock Rovers in an away friendly at the start of the season - anyone got any more details?

[Fixer82]

Certainly won't be listening to the jealously which will be on offer there.


Didn't hear any jealousy from Gilesy in the interview.

[geysir]

Well, they didn't miss hitting the barn door. They came away with in Jack. As I said earlier, I think Jack personality wise was totally suited to the Irish job and he had also had a few other coaching jobs prior to that. Paisley was born and bred Liverpool and while he may technically have been a better coach, I am sure not sure he would have been suited to the totally different environment that was Ireland at the time. I just don't see his character fitting in to the job but it's all speculation.

You might remember that it was thee most frustrating of times in Irish intl football, as we had quality players available, probably the best quality selection of all time and a totally inept manager at the helm (sorry Eoin). The question isn't about what happened after the appointment of Jack, it's about the reaction at the time of the appointment and the reaction to how the FAI conspired to appoint Charlton ahead of a world class coach/manager.
Maybe it might have turned out that an acclaimed world class manager /coach Bob Paisley a man who had more football nous and experience in his little finger than a team of Jack Charltons, would not have worked out how to manage a team with Beglin, Brady, Stapleton, Lawrenson, Whelan, McGrath, O'Leary, Sheedy and Moran, but the question was not about that, it was about the reaction at that time to the appointment of Charlton over Bob Paisley.

[DannyInvincible]

Colin Young (journalist and author) chats to The42.ie about Jack Charlton's place in Irish footballing (and political) history: http://www.the42.ie/jack-charlton-started-the-peace-process-3435936-Jun2017/


Niall Quinn — not only a legendary player on these shores but also one of football’s great storytellers — best summarises Charlton’s profound impact on Irish life at a deeper level than a mere sporting milieu. “Jack Charlton started the Peace Process and he was responsible for the start of the Celtic Tiger era in Ireland,” the former Arsenal, Man City and Sunderland striker says. “And he did it just by being himself.”

Quinn continues: “If you go back to when he took the job, it was unthinkable for an English manager to come into our game in Ireland and do what he did. Why? Because English people weren’t comfortable coming to Ireland, so it was a big step for him. And Irish people were not as comfortable with English people as they are today and there was an underlying suspicion of them. We were brought up to believe that as kids. I was 14, 15 when the hunger strikes were going on and there were black flags outside houses in the street and everybody in Ireland said Margaret Thatcher was the devil. That was only five years before Jack came, and it had not cleared up by any stretch of the imagination. It was a risky move for him but one that he took absolutely full on and embraced from day one. He dealt with any political suspicions really well, and in his way. He was blunt and won the people over, not by launching a PR campaign, but by just being himself. Look at the way he asked for a light after he’d been given some shocking abuse by the crowd in Belfast [during a Northern Ireland-Republic of Ireland World Cup qualifier]. It calmed them down because he was laughing it off and dealing with it as only he could.”

...

[Colin Young:] “The best thing he could do was just manage the football team to the best of his ability, not get involved or embroiled in any of the [political] stuff that is going on in the background. But by being the way he was, by being successful and by being the first Protestant manager, by being very Geordie, which is actually quite close to Irish people and Irish culture, people embraced him and it was never really an issue.”

[pineapple stu]

It seems the sad day has come -

https://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/2020-07-11/world-cup-winner-and-former-newcastle-united-and-middlesbrough-manager-jack-charlton-dies

Yes, we had a decent squad and should have qualified for something sooner. But it needed that extra bit of belief, and it ultimately was Jack that pushed us over the line.

A true legend of Irish football

[Eirambler]

Has sadly passed away at 85. RIP.

[youngirish]

RIP Jack. You did more to make the world sit up and take notice of Irish football than anyone before or since.

[D24Saint]

Rest in Peace Jack. That man gave a generation amazing times that will live with them until the end of their days. Thanks for the memories.

[seanfhear]

He has Gone to Meet the Long Ball In Football Heaven.

RIP.

[osarusan]

RIP Jack. He gave us Euro 88 and Italia 90 times, it was a time of excitement never seen before or since really.

Qualifying for 3 out of 4 tournaments (88, 90, 94) is something we haven't been able to achieve since either, and it's easier to qualify now.

Put football on the map really, and sent out a generation of supporters to put the supporters on the map also.

[NeverFeltBetter]

A giant. We'd be nowhere without what he gave to the team.

[the 12 th man]

Whatever about his tactics he was a fantastic man motivator.His name will always be associated with happy days.RIP.

[pineapple stu]

And you look at who was in those groups too - Belgium in Euro 88; they'd reached the semi-finals of the previous World Cup, while Bulgaria and Scotland had been at the 1986 competition as well. Spain, Hungary and Northern Ireland in Italia 90 - all had played in the 1986 World Cup. Denmark in 1994 - the reigning European Champions. And the Albania-Latvia-Lithuania triple header away day was a tough one given the circumstances of collapsing communism too.

[Olé Olé]

I'm too young to remember any of Charlton's tenure (born in 91) but as an Irish football fan, I have watched and read a lot about his time and the successes of 90 and 94. He seemed to create competitive sides with fantastic spirit which captured the nation's imagination.

Rest in peace, Big Jack.

[geysir]

He was a big man in all ways, a formidable presence in any company, he could inspire and make you laugh.

[passinginterest]

It’s almost like losing our national grandad. A generation who grew up with a genuine, heartfelt, belief that Ireland could win the World Cup. A belief that arguably inspired the economic development and growth that was unimaginable in the 80’s. I’ve shed a few tears today, a part of our childhood has died, some of the happiest days we’ll ever know.

[gastric]

As an old fan compared to many on here, he was the man who gave belief to Irish people in general. The first time I went to a pub to watch a game where others showed interest. He didnt care about his lack of knowledge about Ireland, but his passion abouT football was always evident. Football in Ireland was consolidated by him and except for Mick no one has matched his passion or success. A legend and national hero. Vale Jack.

[Closed Account 2]

The greatest manager we've ever had, and in many ways a grandad to the nation. I grew up in the late 80s and 90s, it was an incredible time as an Irish football fan. It felt like getting to the knockout stages of major tournaments was par for the course, we know (quite painfully) that isn't the case, but Jack's ability to get the most out of the players made it happen time and again. Under him we always felt we had a decent chance no matter how good the opposition was on paper.

He's responsible for so many happy memories, Stuttgart 88, Quinn sweeping the ball past van Breukelen, the brilliant chip by Houghton over Pagliuca in Giants Stadium, Jack doing a cheeky commentary on live TV for the Norway game and circumventing the ban (which followed the Mexican game in Orlando).

In my opinion someone who contributed so much to Irish sport should get a state funeral a major statue (I know there is one in Cork airport) or a stadium named after him, but it will be difficult to do some of those things with the virus situation. You'd hope the FAI could arrange some kind of tribute to him when we next play, the Austrian FA did a very touching tribute to Ernst Happel in their next game after he died in 1992.