Jack Charlton

[barney]

Townsend was nominated for the pfa player of the year award in 1989, which was won by Mark Hughes. He went on to be in 3 pfa team of the years. Townsend was a top player and would have been an England captain in my opinion.

So do you believe that Townsend wanted to play for us over England?

[Bungle]

Around the time he declared for us, he was playing very well. However, I would say that he may well have made the choice of playing for us and being a regular, rather than taking his chance with England. He would have noted that Ireland were a team going places - very good Euro 88 and would have felt that he could have played with us at the 1990 world cup, which he did. I'm sure he saw that we had a lot of excellent players at the time which would have influenced him.

I'm sure Andy grew up wanting to play for England, but feeling very Irish.

I do think that Andy would have won 50-60 caps for England without doubt. He was a top player and when he was at his best for us, England were pretty poor by their standards. Put it like this, he was a far better player than Palmer.

[barney]

Around the time he declared for us, he was playing very well. However, I would say that he may well have made the choice of playing for us and being a regular, rather than taking his chance with England. He would have noted that Ireland were a team going places - very good Euro 88 and would have felt that he could have played with us at the 1990 world cup, which he did. I'm sure he saw that we had a lot of excellent players at the time which would have influenced him.

I'm sure Andy grew up wanting to play for England, but feeling very Irish.

I do think that Andy would have won 50-60 caps for England without doubt. He was a top player and when he was at his best for us, England were pretty poor by their standards. Put it like this, he was a far better player than Palmer.

We'll agree to disagree so. Always thought Townsend was a good player but not a top player.

Even taking your opinion as being correct, the fact we had Bonner, Morris, McCarthy, Cascarino/Quinn in our starting eleven under Jack means we were carrything some fairly ordinary albeit committed players. Even Kevin Sheedy or John Aldridge never really stood out for me.

It wasn't like we had a glittering array of players that were the envy of the world. For my money, Jack got a tremendous amount out of them and deserves massive respect for what he achieved.

[Bungle]

We'll agree to disagree so. Always thought Townsend was a good player but not a top player.

Even taking your opinion as being correct, the fact we had Bonner, Morris, McCarthy, Cascarino/Quinn in our starting eleven under Jack means we were carrything some fairly ordinary albeit committed players. Even Kevin Sheedy or John Aldridge never really stood out for me.

It wasn't like we had a glittering array of players that were the envy of the world. For my money, Jack got a tremendous amount out of them and deserves massive respect for what he achieved.

Agree with you that Jack deserves a huge amount of respect for what he achieved.

You are right that we had a few very ordinary players in our team back then, but we also had a number of really top players. I wouldn't say Andy was in the same level of players that McGrath or Whelan was, but I do think he would have walked into the England team.

[tetsujin1979]

You're actually right for once.

From an interview with the Mirror in 1997:



http://www.thefreelibrary.com/My+World+Cup+dreams+were+blown+away+by+Frannie+Lee !%3B+Now+I'm+aiming...-a061121357


Interesting he's maintaining that line today. This article suggests he was eased back into action with substitute appearances by City a good three months later. I wonder why they'd do that if he was actually fully fit.

http://www.scmp.com/article/87282/quinn-fit-comeback


He was fit according to the player himself and was working out with the World Cup as his goal. His chances were shot down a month before the tournament by Brian Horton who said he would not be released to go to USA. Quinn was gutted. Horton showed him no support at all in his bid to make the finals. And then Horton was gone from the club in a matter of months.

well, shut my mouth! I always believed that Quinn was still unfit after the cruciate injury.

[Fixer82]

I'm sure Andy grew up wanting to play for England, but feeling very Irish.


Not true. Andy wasn't even aware of his Irish connections until after Ireland beat England in Euro 88.
He was feeling down after the match and his mother told him, 'You should be happy, your Grandmother is Irish'

Or something to that effect

[pineapple stu]

Was it Townsend on his Ireland debut who, after the Irish anthem, turned to a team-mate and said "Well that wasn't too bright; what's ours like?"

[geysir]

Wasn't that Mancini on his debut at Dalymount?

Maybe it's a common plastic paddy experience.

[Fixer82]

What about the story of Haughey coming in to the dressing room after we were beaten by Italy in 1990 and giving a rousing speech.
Cascarino turned to Quinn and said 'Who the fack is tha''? Quinn embarrassingly said 'Shhhh it's the Taoiseach'
Townsend said to Cas, 'Who the fack is tha'"?
To which Cascarino replied 'I dunno. Quinny says he owns a Tea Shop'.

[geysir]

Yes it was Mancini
“I went over to Dublin for my first international game to face Poland, they’d just drawn with England in the previous match and knocked them out of the World Cup as a result,” says Mancini. “It was a great honour to be selected and I lined up at the side of the pitch desperate to get playing.
“All the pre-match ceremony seemed to go on forever then the music started playing and it went on and on and I turned to Don Givens and said ‘for f*** sake their national anthem don’t half go on’ and he said, ‘that’s ours Terry’. I didn’t have a clue.”

[Lionel Ritchie]

He's always claimed that he was fully fit and that Manchester City refused to release him. He also claims that Jack Charlton should have done more to pressue City to release him and was afraid to do so because he was English and hoped to get a job back in English club footballl.

I can understand Quinns disappointment but that's probably a bit harsh on Jack. City would have been keen to protect an asset from early exposure to competitive football and wouldn't have given a monkeys about Irelands needs for the WC or Quinn desire to be there. Seemingly Roma were in for Quinn the previous autumn before he did the knee in. Citeh may have selfishly but understandably wanted to keep him in merchantable condition in case they or anyone else renewed their interest.

[geysir]

I read another story where Jack said he was waiting for definite news about Quinn at the end of May.

Jack Charlton
Irish Voice
05-31-1994
THE Jack Charlton PAGE: Barring Injury, My U.S. Panel Is Set; Quinn's a. Maybe, But Packie's Still No. 1

I HAVE named a panel of 22 players for the three games we have lined up against Bolivia, Germany, and the Czech Republic. (See Countdown to [B]USA `[B]94 on Page 44 for the names.) I don't have to name may final choice until June 3, but it is very likely that the 22 I've picked for the three friendlies will be the panel who will go to America.

I'll leave it until June 3, just in case we get an injury or two. And if Niall Quinn came good, for example, we would like to bring him with us. I haven't ruled him out so far - with an...

Thats all from http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-2249279.html

[tetsujin1979]

What about the story of Haughey coming in to the dressing room after we were beaten by Italy in 1990 and giving a rousing speech.
Cascarino turned to Quinn and said 'Who the fack is tha''? Quinn embarrassingly said 'Shhhh it's the Taoiseach'
Townsend said to Cas, 'Who the fack is tha'"?
To which Cascarino replied 'I dunno. Quinny says he owns a Tea Shop'.
think this one is a bit of a myth, surely they would have met him before that game?
Believe it or not, the same joke is in the closing credits of an episode of Drop The Dead Donkey!

[Fixer82]

I remember Niall Quinn telling the story on some free DVD I got with a paper. The Jack Charlton Years or one of those

[bennocelt]

It works both ways. Perceived neglect breeds contempt and the FAI have never made the league or its adherents their priority. In fact, the league is nowhere near their priority...



They are English and Irish, after all, so why wouldn't they use "we" when referring to both their clans, if you will?



He was born in London, but that one's a bit more puzzling considering both his parents were Irish and he grew up in Ireland from the age of three.


Exactly, never understood why people have a big issue with this!

As regards Big Jack - people seem to forget that international football was generally muck back then - He did a fantastic job with us. I dont think too many teams were playing free flowing passing football, or at least any teams that I can remember. The game is so much different nowadays (which Trap is only just realising!)

[Paddy Garcia]

I'm very grateful to Jack and for the great ride we has though his years- teamwork and team commitment underpinned the success.

My one gripe is that he did not quite have the vision to see what that team could achieve. His comment that the quarter final against Italy was "our final" and that we were pleased to get there set the expectation amongst the players and I think this was a mistake.

Still he has much more on the credit balance than the debit. And if he was in the hot seat today I don't think we would have so many man management issues.

[OwlsFan]

While we were lucky to qualify for Euro 88, this was the beginning of people actually believing in Irish football and having expectations..

Why were we lucky? We finished top of the group with most points. We were a better side than Bulgaria. If Scotland beat Bulgaria earlier in the group, there would have been no talk of luck. Teams qualify for tournaments not based solely on their own performances but also that of their rivals. Bulgaria were not good enough to beat Scotland at home. Bulgaria took 1 point from Scotland, we took 4. We were very unlucky to lose in Bulgaria. We beat Bulgaria 2-0 in our final match. We deserved our place and we finished with the most points.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Townsend supported England in the game in Euro'88, that's well documented. But who cares now?
He's been long since forgiven...

[footballplease]

I'm not sure if it's that people are too young to have been around back then or they have short memories but the side under Jack was a serious outfit. Most of the players were at top clubs of the time.

All this utter nonsense about benchmarking players against 'would they play for england' is mind-boggling! Ireland, from about 1990 onwards, were way ahead of England in terms of quality of player. If we only had some more self-belief and maybe one more striker! The 1-1 draw in Wembley was one of the most dominant Ireland displays i've ever seen and how we didnt win that game is a total mystery. Our midfield, including the aforementioned Townsend, was in a different league to England's. I still maintain that if we had qualified for the 92 Euro's we would have won it. A total brainfart at 3-1 ahead away to Poland cost us that group, along with that Wembley game.

[footballplease]

Why were we lucky? We finished top of the group with most points. We were a better side than Bulgaria. If Scotland beat Bulgaria earlier in the group, there would have been no talk of luck. Teams qualify for tournaments not based solely on their own performances but also that of their rivals. Bulgaria were not good enough to beat Scotland at home. Bulgaria took 1 point from Scotland, we took 4. We were very unlucky to lose in Bulgaria. We beat Bulgaria 2-0 in our final match. We deserved our place and we finished with the most points.

Totally agree - i was at all of the home games in that group and not once did we look inferior, unlike most of the games nowadays. We battered Bulgaria at home and were blatently robbed in the away game. Actually the away game was a typical eastern european away game of it's time - dodgy ref included!!

[Bungle]

I'm not sure if it's that people are too young to have been around back then or they have short memories but the side under Jack was a serious outfit. Most of the players were at top clubs of the time.

All this utter nonsense about benchmarking players against 'would they play for england' is mind-boggling! Ireland, from about 1990 onwards, were way ahead of England in terms of quality of player. If we only had some more self-belief and maybe one more striker! The 1-1 draw in Wembley was one of the most dominant Ireland displays i've ever seen and how we didnt win that game is a total mystery. Our midfield, including the aforementioned Townsend, was in a different league to England's. I still maintain that if we had qualified for the 92 Euro's we would have won it. A total brainfart at 3-1 ahead away to Poland cost us that group, along with that Wembley game.

Have to agree with all of that. Euro 92 was a tragedy. I believe that we could have gone there and won it. We certainly had it in our locker to anyway. Only Germany, Holland and Yugoslavia who didn't play in the end because of their war were better teams than us on paper.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'm not sure if it's that people are too young to have been around back then or they have short memories but the side under Jack was a serious outfit. Most of the players were at top clubs of the time.
Uh, they were at the top English clubs of the time. When English clubs were banned from, and then relatively uncompetitive in, European competition. We're probably a few top players short of where we were under Jack, but below the top-tier players our current lot are as good or better as they've ever been.

[SkStu]

The players Jack had at his disposal particularly from 88-92 were a class above any squads we have produced since. Easily. I can name 10 top class players, at least, during that time that could have walked into most european national teams/squads at that time. We could probably debate or argue the merits of another 10 as being top class.

[Charlie Darwin]

I suppose the question then is why were they playing in England?

[gastric]

The players Jack had at his disposal particularly from 88-92 were a class above any squads we have produced since. Easily. I can name 10 top class players, at least, during that time that could have walked into most european national teams/squads at that time. We could probably debate or argue the merits of another 10 as being top class.


Agreed. Any team that could play Paul McGrath at rigth back to accommodate him had to have some quality. This percieved lack of ambition that has been mentioned is ridiculous! We were so happy to be playing with the big boys, beating them and enjoying the journey. Rather than lacking ambition I believe we remained grounded and were aware of our limitations. Unfortunately, since then expectations have developed and are often out of kilter with the reality of our ability.

[gastric]

I suppose the question then is why were they play in England?

What?

[Charlie Darwin]

What?
If they were top European players, they'd have been playing for European clubs. But instead they were playing in England.

[gastric]

The reason they played in England is simple. Players didn't really make the move to the continent to play. In fact such was the hysteria following Gascoigne's move to Italy that people asked if he could follow John Charles and Liam Brady in being a success in Italy. Channel 4 even bought the rights to Italian soccer so people in England could watch Gazza. Many a Sunday afternoon with a bad hangover I would stare at the television being bored by Italian football.

[Charlie Darwin]

Well, they didn't move to the continent because they weren't good enough. The best players in England in the '80s did move to Italy. The rest stayed because nobody wanted them, or they weren't ambitious enough to better themselves.

[osarusan]

Pretty simplistic stance on the situation, Charlie.

[gastric]

Well, they didn't move to the continent because they weren't good enough. The best players in England in the '80s did move to Italy. The rest stayed because nobody wanted them, or they weren't ambitious enough to better themselves.

You are right! McGrath was no good, Robson was no good among others. What planet are you on? Name these great players who moved to Italy in the 80s?

[Charlie Darwin]

You are right! McGrath was no good, Robson was no good among others. What planet are you on? Name these great players who moved to Italy in the 80s?
Liam Brady, Graeme Souness, Ian Rush, Trevor Francis, Joe Jordan, Ray Wilkins? The best players in the world played in Italy in the 1980s and early 1990s, as shown by Italy's relative dominance of the competition during that decade. There weren't that many British and Irish players among that number during that time because there weren't that many great British and Irish players around.

[gastric]

How are you determining they are among the best players in the world at that time? Rush was a legend for Liverpool, but a disaster in Italy. Among the others mentioned, only Brady was considered a success. For many, it was a retirement scheme as they had achieved all they could in the English game. I agree Italy was dominant in Europe as money speaks, but I can't agree that they were all among the best players in England when they went to Italy.

[osarusan]

Liam Brady, Graeme Souness, Ian Rush, Trevor Francis, Joe Jordan, Ray Wilkins? The best players in the world played in Italy in the 1980s and early 1990s, as shown by Italy's relative dominance of the competition during that decade. There weren't that many British and Irish players among that number during that time because there weren't that many great British and Irish players around.
In the period of time those players played in Italy (1981-87), the England v Italy score was 3-1, 2-0, and 1-1 for victories in the European Cup, Uefa cup, and Cup-winners cup respectively.

If your argument is that Italian success in europe in the early 90's demonstrates the superiority of their league at that time, then in the 1980's the English league was demonstrably superior. These players moved away from the English league during its most dominant period in Europe.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'd say the reason they didn't succeed in Italy was because they played a relatively one-dimensional style of football that didn't lend itself to the more intricate continental game, which to be fair hasn't really changed much. English (and Irish) players generally haven't succeeded abroad regardless of the era. My point remains that Irish players were at the top echelons of the English game because the English game was particularly weak at that point. I'm not saying Glenn Whelan would have prospered at Liverpool in the '80s, just that our standard of player hasn't dramatically decreased since Houghton and Staunton were flitting between Liverpool and Aston Villa.

[Charlie Darwin]

In the period of time those players played in Italy (1981-87), the England v Italy score was 3-1, 2-0, and 1-1 for victories in the European Cup, Uefa cup, and Cup-winners cup respectively.

If your argument is that Italian success in europe in the early 90's demonstrates the superiority of their league at that time, then in the 1980's the English league was deomnstrably superior. These players moved away from the English league during its most dominant period in Europe.
No, my point is that Irish players came to prominence at the top English teams after those players had left and English teams weren't allowed in European competition and the English national team was at a low ebb.

[osarusan]

I'm disagreeing with your point that the best players in the English league moved to Italy in the 80's because it was a better league. By your own barometer for success, it clearly wasn't.

[Charlie Darwin]

I disagree with that obviously but I made my point inelegantly. There weren't a whole lot of great British and Irish players around at the time, and I think the more talented ones were courted by superior leagues, particularly when the English clubs were kicked out of Europe. The Irish players in question, with the exception of your Whelans and your Lawrensons, came to prominence when the English clubs were excluded from Europe and thus significantly weaker than they were when English clubs were winning European cups a few years earlier. So I think it's lazy to compare today's Irish players, when the Premier League has the money to attract many of the world's best players, with that era when English football was at a historical weak point.

[osarusan]

So I think it's lazy to compare today's Irish players, when the Premier League has the money to attract many of the world's best players, with that era when English football was at a historical weak point.
I'd argue that it's equally lazy to say that because they didn't move to Italy, they musn't have been all that good.

[Charlie Darwin]

That was lazy, to be fair. But I do think the Italian teams courted and got who they wanted.

[SkStu]

Many great players didn't move to Italy in the 80's and 90's Charlie. It doesn't make them any less good. And given that the Serie A was the top league in Europe at the time, it is widely accepted that the English league was a very close second, in spite of the ban.

Plus...with regards to not moving abroad.....

John Byrne - Le Havre
Kevin Moran - Sporting Goujons
Tony Cascarino - Marseilles/Nancy/Red Star
John Aldridge - Real Sociedad
Mick McCarthy - facking Lyon!
Stapleton - Ajax/Anderlecht + Le Havre

:p

[ArdeeBhoy]

If they were top European players, they'd have been playing for European clubs. But instead they were playing in England.

Football was much more parochial back then. And most of these players wouldn't have suited the Italian 'style'. Which a bit like the EPL now, was vastly over-rated.

[tetsujin1979]

I suppose the question then is why were they playing in England?
don't forget, the player quota was still in force at the time, you had to be an exceptional player, better than what was available from the club's own country, to force your way into a side

[Bungle]

Players like Ronnie Whelan, John Barnes, Bryan Robson and McGrath would not have been out of place in any club side of that era. You could add pretty much any of the Liverpool team from then actually.

[bennocelt]

Well, they didn't move to the continent because they weren't good enough. The best players in England in the '80s did move to Italy. The rest stayed because nobody wanted them, or they weren't ambitious enough to better themselves.

I remember reading that AC Milan wanted to buy Mcgrath for a big sum but Ferguson refused to sell
After Baresi, Mcgrath was the best defender I have ever seen - re one Euro game against Genoa where he was magnificent

[Bungle]

I remember reading that AC Milan wanted to buy Mcgrath for a big sum but Ferguson refused to sell
After Baresi, Mcgrath was the best defender I have ever seen - re one Euro game against Genoa where he was magnificent

I seem to recall Baresi and Baggio including him in their dream world elevens at that time. High praise from arguably the two greatest players of their generation.

[BonnieShels]

It's been often said around these parts but imagine just how good he could have been if he had knees!

[Fixer82]

Many great players didn't move to Italy in the 80's and 90's Charlie. It doesn't make them any less good. And given that the Serie A was the top league in Europe at the time, it is widely accepted that the English league was a very close second, in spite of the ban.

Plus...with regards to not moving abroad.....

John Byrne - Le Havre
Kevin Moran - Sporting Goujons
Tony Cascarino - Marseilles/Nancy/Red Star
John Aldridge - Real Sociedad
Mick McCarthy - facking Lyon!
Stapleton - Ajax/Anderlecht + Le Havre

:p

Yeah but I heard he got roasted over there! :)

[paul_oshea]

gijons goujons dijon....

[OwlsFan]

Apropos nothing:

Ireland Team 1988

Packie Bonner, Chris Morris, Mick McCarthy, Kevin Moran, Chris Hughton, Ray Houghton, Paul McGrath, Ronnie Whelan, Tony Galvin, Frank Stapleton, John Aldridge. Subs - Niall Quinn for Stapleton (63), Kevin Sheedy for Galvin (76) Subs Not Used: Gerry Peyton; John Byrne; John Anderson Coach: Jack Charlton

England Team

Shilton; Stevens; Sansom; Webb; Wright; Adams; Robson; Waddle; Beardsley; Lineker; Barnes. Subs: Hoddle for Webb (60); Hateley for Beardsley (82)

Joint team:

1 Shilton, 2 Stevens, 3 Sanson, 4 McGrath, 5 Moran, 6 Robson 7 Houghton 8 Whelan 9 Lineker 10 Beardsley, 11 Barnes

4 Irish 7 English with moving McGrath back to centre half. Stapleton was nearing the end of his career, hence I chose Beardsley over him. In his prime I would have chosen Frank.

We did really well to come out with that victory over a very good English side. To keep a forward line of Waddle; Beardsley; Lineker and Barnes scoreless was a great achievement. Thank you Jack. Thank you Ray. Thank you Ireland.