Respect for Mr Trapattoni please

[the doc]

I think we should all show a bit more respect for Mr Trapattoni and be thankful for the job he has done for us during his time as National coach

Yes recent actions, comments and squad selection have to say the least been questionable.

But lets not forget he got us within "Touching" distance of qualifying for the World Cup and gained qualification to the Euros too.

He has his system, his ideals and that have been both a success and failure at times.

Thank you Mr Trapattoni.

Respect!

[paul_oshea]

If trap gets us 6 points against sweden and austria next month then I don't think anyone can disagree with any of his methods.

If trap gets us 2 points or less then i think he has to go.

[DannyInvincible]

I think we should all show a bit more respect for Mr Trapattoni and be thankful for the job he has done for us during his time as National coach

Yes recent actions, comments and squad selection have to say the least been questionable.

But lets not forget he got us within "Touching" distance of qualifying for the World Cup and gained qualification to the Euros too.

He has his system, his ideals and that have been both a success and failure at times.

Thank you Mr Trapattoni.

Respect!

Yes, you know footie and we got the point in another thread... Why the need to try and reinforce it with a new thread on Trapattoni's management?

[Crosby87]

Exactly what POSH says. Most people on here know where others stand.... we will all know after Sweden.

[wonder88]

We may know where people stand here on this forum, but I think the way the Irish soccer media and most of the fans have been acting towards him since the summer has shown a lack of understanding of the game. He has a fair number of faults, but he has also improved our national team with players who are mostly average ability in International football terms. Do people seriously think, Andy Reid for example or Stephen Kelly in the team can radicially improve the results of Ireland in our group.

[geysir]

I would have preferred he went after the Euros.
Seeing as he's here for another campaign, then I don't see any point to moaning and bitchin'. That decision has been made.
I want the best results possible out of what he can manage to do with the team.
If and when this campaign is over early, then really he should step down.
I'd appeal to his patrician sense of honour:)

[tommy_c12000]

I think we should all show a bit more respect for Mr Trapattoni and be thankful for the job he has done for us during his time as National coach

Yes recent actions, comments and squad selection have to say the least been questionable.

But lets not forget he got us within "Touching" distance of qualifying for the World Cup and gained qualification to the Euros too.

He has his system, his ideals and that have been both a success and failure at times.

Thank you Mr Trapattoni.

Respect!

Odd thread to start. This arse-licking is likely to be in vain, Ciaran Clark is likely to start ahead of you anyways

[NeverFeltBetter]

Trap lost a lot of my respect over the last six months and I sincerely doubt he can earn it back. Also, do we really need another Trap debate thread?

[Charlie Darwin]

This guy knows his foot.ie

[BonnieShels]

This guy knows his foot.ie

His what?

http://www.irishfa.com/fs/img/library/video-36-0-00-01-43.jpg

[Charlie Darwin]

His what?

http://www.irishfa.com/fs/img/library/video-36-0-00-01-43.jpg
#gawa

[SolitudeRed]

His what?

http://www.irishfa.com/fs/img/library/video-36-0-00-01-43.jpg

I take it that is Jamie Bwyson at a recent 'fleg' protest at the city hall then? :rolleyes:

[Kingdom]

Judging by that pic, the grass is greener on the other side!

As for il Duce, if we lose one of the up-coming double-headers I reckon we're done for. And in that scenario, I'd look for a change in management, regardless of the cost. Give a new manager half a campaign to bed in for the Euro 16 campaign.
If we lose both games, I'd be calling for Delaney's resignation if Trap doesn't get the can.

[BonnieShels]

Judging by that pic, the grass is greener on the other side!

The grass is always greener to the left. I've learned that over time. In fact I'm due a night out in the Second City soon. The Eg and the Bot better watch out.


As for il Duce, if we lose one of the up-coming double-headers I reckon we're done for. And in that scenario, I'd look for a change in management, regardless of the cost. Give a new manager half a campaign to bed in for the Euro 16 campaign.
If we lose both games, I'd be calling for Delaney's resignation if Trap doesn't get the can.

I'd be calling for Delaney's resignation no matter what. Though, I wouldn't mind seeing him make it to UEFA.

[Bungle]

We may know where people stand here on this forum, but I think the way the Irish soccer media and most of the fans have been acting towards him since the summer has shown a lack of understanding of the game. He has a fair number of faults, but he has also improved our national team with players who are mostly average ability in International football terms. Do people seriously think, Andy Reid for example or Stephen Kelly in the team can radicially improve the results of Ireland in our group.

I agree with most of what you say, but I think the major gripe is that there are a number of good/very good young players that are only starting to get into the side, but should have been there 18-24 months ago. Guys like Coleman, Wilson and McCarthy should be fairly seasoned internationals at this point. Long should have been getting more game time, as should Walters.

Then you have a guy like Wes Hoolahan who is a very good player. He never got any look in over the last few years and probably will continue not to under Trap. Indeed, despite a very impressive cameo against the Poles, Trap is lukewarm in his praise of Wes, while being glowing in his praise of the very average but very committed and likeable Conor Sammon. I don't buy this notion that our system can't accommodate someone like Wes. If Norwich can in a tough league week in week out, then we certainly can playing a team like Austria or even Sweden. At least Trap is starting to get to games, which is a big positive.

Anyhow, I do think on paper there is the makings of a very decent Irish team in the making. No world class player in the squad, bar maybe in a few years McCarthy or at a push Coleman, but very decent nevertheless.

[Bungle]

Judging by that pic, the grass is greener on the other side!

As for il Duce, if we lose one of the up-coming double-headers I reckon we're done for. And in that scenario, I'd look for a change in management, regardless of the cost. Give a new manager half a campaign to bed in for the Euro 16 campaign.
If we lose both games, I'd be calling for Delaney's resignation if Trap doesn't get the can.

Hopefully, we get through the spring and make a major push for the playoffs, but I think if we lose to the Swedes, then it makes little sense to keep Trap. Far better to accept we won't be going to Brazil and get on with the process of getting in a new manager to prepare for the next campaign.

[redobit]

Were paying this guy 2 million a year to tell the players to stay back and knock it long. I could coach the players that FFS.

[ifk101]

Just to continue on points above, Trapattoni was appointed to take a reasonably talented group of players in their prime to a major championship. His job brief was specific, and short term in its nature.

We're now going to a generation change and what's expected of the Irish manager has changed. Results remain important but there's a need for a longer perspective. Trapattoni is still working to a results-based, short-term perspective brief. He's picking players he believes fits into roles in a system he believes will get results. He's not looking towards player development and building a competitive team for the future. There's no room for that in the job brief he was given when appointed.

If we lose to Sweden and Austria, he should go as effectively we're out of the reckoning for the WC and we need a new approach.

[paul_oshea]

Ifk101 building for the future and qualifying for tournaments need not be mutually exclusive, in fact they are probably dependent on eachother.

But on the scale of things, over a longer period I would always take the results and performance over the rest.

[nigel-harps1954]

His what?

http://www.irishfa.com/fs/img/library/video-36-0-00-01-43.jpg


Can we convince that tidy wee blonde to switch allegiances?

[Eminence Grise]

Respect with reasoned, impersonal criticism - yes.
Blind servility - no.

For me, Trap's Irish history is just that. It's where he's bringing us that's more important.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Which doesn't seem anywhere very promising...

[DeLorean]

Which doesn't seem anywhere very promising...

Same could have been said after the Russia game at the start of the last campaign. Of course, some would say that he still didn't bring us anywhere promising as we had a poor tournament. Being realistic though, with our current squad, tournament qualification is a fantastic result. I'm sure Roy Keane would have steam coming out of his ears at the notion but unfortunately we don't have any Roy Keane's anymore. I pretty much agree with POS too, let the next two games (possibly one game) decide his future. Even if we lose them both I'll look back at his time in charge with positivity.

[brine3]

He was very good between 2008 and 2010. Resurrected the Ireland team out of the ashes of the Staunton mess, brought in some new players, got everyone playing in a system. Got draws against Italy and was robbed by France in the playoffs. Very well done.

His system was cruelly exposed by Russia in Dublin though, in October 2010. And since then everything has been fairly rubbish. All the opposition managers have sussed us out now, and yet we do nothing to change. Sure, we qualified for Euro 2012 thanks to large slices of luck against Armenia and through playing a very poor Estonia side that self-destructed. But I actually thought we were much better in the WC2010 campaign. That side deserved to qualify much more than the Euro2012 side did.

I don't know what happened post-2010. He's not the same manager we hired in 2008.

[paul_oshea]

he is 4 years older - I'm not being smart there. But there is probably a change in attitude.

[geysir]

He was very good between 2008 and 2010. Resurrected the Ireland team out of the ashes of the Staunton mess, brought in some new players, got everyone playing in a system. Got draws against Italy and was robbed by France in the playoffs. Very well done.

His system was cruelly exposed by Russia in Dublin though, in October 2010. And since then everything has been fairly rubbish. All the opposition managers have sussed us out now, and yet we do nothing to change. Sure, we qualified for Euro 2012 thanks to large slices of luck against Armenia and through playing a very poor Estonia side that self-destructed. But I actually thought we were much better in the WC2010 campaign. That side deserved to qualify much more than the Euro2012 side did.

I don't know what happened post-2010. He's not the same manager we hired in 2008.
I don't go with this luck thing.
Trap's tactics had crumbled to varying degrees in almost every home game in his first 2 campaigns, but away performances made up the difference. We qualified because we were easily the best second team in the Group. We had much more experience than Armenia and Estonia when it came to those pressure games.
Those teams can play a bit, but playing when there's something serious at stake is another matter, players make mistakes they wouldn't normally make.
We were seeded in the play off because of our results over a 4 year period. It was a hard earned qualification in an average group. There's no luck involved with that.
Far better teams than what we have now, would not have beaten Macedonia so handy on their own turf, and if Macedonia didn't miss a last minute penalty against Russia, we could have finished level with Russia.
What happened after we qualified is another story and now in the 3rd campaign it will take nothing short of a miracle by Trap with his tactics, to finish second.

[DeLorean]

His system was cruelly exposed by Russia in Dublin though, in October 2010. And since then everything has been fairly rubbish.

Yeah, fairly rubbish going unbeaten for the rest of the campaign and qualifying. We also had an eight game run without conceding a goal during that period.

[brine3]

Any time we play a team that can string two passes together we get torn open. It's plain to see for everyone. If we measure success by keeping clean sheets against Estonia and Armenia then we have reached a new low. We've never put up with losing 6-1 at home.


Those teams can play a bit, but playing when there's something serious at stake is another matter, players make mistakes they wouldn't normally make.

Estonia can play a bit? They've never qualified for anything.

[tetsujin1979]

you get lucky (good or bad) in individual incidents, player misses an open goal, fluffs a penalty, scores an OG, keeper drops a ball on your strikers boot, etc
over a qualifying campaign, or campaigns, these things become less and less relevant, and it's the plans/tactics/strategies that you have for these campaigns that make the difference

[DannyInvincible]

We were seeded in the play off because of our results over a 4 year period. It was a hard earned qualification in an average group. There's no luck involved with that.

As Seneca once said, "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity."

[DeLorean]

Any time we play a team that can string two passes together we get torn open. It's plain to see for everyone. If we measure success by keeping clean sheets against Estonia and Armenia then we have reached a new low. We've never put up with losing 6-1 at home.

And is it a new low to measure success by qualifying for tournaments? We've never been in a situation where we lost 6-1 at home having qualified for a tournament just months earlier. I suppose Alex Ferguson should have got the road after losing 6-1 at home to City last season.


Estonia can play a bit? They've never qualified for anything.

Their short history means nothing. They reached the playoffs on merit, second place in a group that contained Serbia and Slovenia (two countries who have previously qualified), beating them both away. Three of the four teams we could have played in the playoff hadn't previously qualified for anything anyway, due to the fact that we had earned our place as a seeded team.

[Stuttgart88]

Estonia can play a bit? They've never qualified for anything.Nor have Armenia, Bosnia or Montenegro. All can play a bit. Armenia racked up 4 in Slovakia FFS.

[brine3]

And is it a new low to measure success by qualifying for tournaments? We've never been in a situation where we lost 6-1 at home having qualified for a tournament just months earlier. I suppose Alex Ferguson should have got the road after losing 6-1 at home to City last season.

I'd rather we hadn't qualified for Euro 2012 to be honest. We were total rubbish, the worst team at the tournament and statistically the worst team in the history of the European Championships.

If that was the best we could possibly do, you'd say one thing, but we had the likes of Marc Wilson and Wes Hoolahan watching at home, not even in the squad - two players who possibly should have been in the first eleven. Especially galling when you think that our main weaknesses were ball retention in the centre of midfield, that Ward had a nightmare against Croatia and that Dunne was not fully fit. Given was also clearly not fit but was picked anyway.

Sometimes Roy Keane is right. We shouldn't be happy to just go along for the sing-song.

[DannyInvincible]

I'd rather we hadn't qualified for Euro 2012 to be honest. We were total rubbish, the worst team at the tournament and statistically the worst team in the history of the European Championships.

That's easy to say in hindsight though. Can you say that qualification was something you didn't celebrate after the Estonia games?


If that was the best we could possibly do, you'd say one thing, but we had the likes of Marc Wilson and Wes Hoolahan watching at home, not even in the squad - two players who possibly should have been in the first eleven.

Wilson was invited to take Kevin Foley's place on the standby list, but was unable to do so as his American girlfriend had just gone into hospital in the US.


Sometimes Roy Keane is right. We shouldn't be happy to just go along for the sing-song.

Of course not. I don't think anyone here is blindly celebrating the Euros because there was a sing-song or whatever.

[Crosby87]

DiCanio has no respect for Mr Trapattoni.
http://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/soccer-news/paolo-di-canio-giovanni-trapattoni-1951437

[Sullivinho]

DiCanio has no respect for Mr Trapattoni.
http://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/soccer-news/paolo-di-canio-giovanni-trapattoni-1951437

Di Canio pushing an authority figure to the ground and Trap not being able to "fathom the idea of having an extra talented player in the midfield."

Unsavory as the described '93 incident was, at least both men learned a lesson and never repeated their mistakes.

[ArdeeBhoy]

If trap gets us 6 points against sweden and austria next month then I don't think anyone can disagree with any of his methods.

If trap gets us 2 points or less then i think he has to go.
Wonder how P.O'S feels now?
Much the same as me, maybe?

[Crosby87]

The only thing you two agree on is that Nigella Lawson has one of the best racks in England. (Overly Pasty as she is.)

[paul_oshea]

Lamb racks...ya and unfortunately Saatchi found out....

[paul_oshea]

Wonder how P.O'S feels now?
Much the same as me, maybe?

He has won a reprieve or extended his stay more like, if he gets 6 in september then I think we can agree with his methods. He has shown possible signs that it could be done. I think 4 would be a decent return, in one way I'd rather it was away against Austria, but in another way I want it to be at home against Sweden where he gets the 3 points.

[jbyrne]

He has won a reprieve or extended his stay more like, if he gets 6 in september then I think we can agree with his methods. He has shown possible signs that it could be done. I think 4 would be a decent return, in one way I'd rather it was away against Austria, but in another way I want it to be at home against Sweden where he gets the 3 points.

and where do the players fit into all of this?

[paul_oshea]

Exactly that's up to trap to select the right ones.

[jbyrne]

Exactly that's up to trap to select the right ones.

and its only the right players if we get the 4 / 6 points?
so if we concede a goal as ciaran clark again loses the ball crazily on the edge of our box that will be traps fault?

[Crosby87]

I think what POSH means to say is that we are still alive and thus Trap deserves to finish what he started. But don't quote me on that.

[paul_oshea]

and its only the right players if we get the 4 / 6 points?
so if we concede a goal as ciaran clark again loses the ball crazily on the edge of our box that will be traps fault?

Did we lose that game 0-1?

[jbyrne]

Did we lose that game 0-1?

no but we scored two goals and would have won 2-1 without that goal. even their 2nd was preventable if Alaba was properly closed down on the edge of the box by the players.

[Stuttgart88]

I think Trap has done alright since the Austria game and I'm actually feeling reasonably optimistic about September. I think he has got the team's spirits back up again and I think he deserves credit.

Gone are the days when we'd beat minnows by 6 goals. I remember when that was the type of score we'd expect to beat Greece and Turkey by. Look at them now! Criticism of the recent showings is unfair and are not what either sceptics or supporters of Trap should be making their argument on.

Even under Mick and Brian Kerr we'd labour to beat minnows handsomely. These teams are happy to defend even a 3 goal deficit such is their lack of ambition and I find that they tend to bring teams down to their level. I think we did just fine in the last few games. It's encouraging that fresh blood is being integrated and that Trap has admitted overlooking Hoolahan for as long as he did was an error.

That said, I still don't trust Trap's selections so I worry about who he'll pick in September. Right midfield (Keogh, Cox..) is a constant worry. Whelan's inability to perform his role effectively is a worry, as is Trap's likely persistence with him - which has to be at the expense of Hoolahan or McCarthy, both of whom should be a shoo-in.

I also think AB, despite some inane nonsense posted recently, is right to say that even if Trap had every player in Europe to choose from, he'd still play conservatively. That's the way he is. I don't think conservatism will get 4 or 6 points in September, we need to be bold - but not foolhardy.

I also can't agree at all with Owls Fan (Armenia thread) that Trap's only error against Austria was not making a sub in injury time. I think he made several errors: picking Sammon and playing hoofball from the start; the one substitution of moving Walters upfront, bringing Green - a central midfielder who had played well 4 days earlier - to play RHM and taking Long off instead of Sammon has to go down as being as calamitous as Kerr's stupid substitution at home to Israel. Yes of course last minute goals happen (very regularly in our case) and we could easily have got away with it, but we all saw this one coming. We all saw that Alaba was taking charge of midfield and needed man-marking. How come Trap didn't?

[Stuttgart88]

no but we scored two goals and would have won 2-1 without that goal. even their 2nd was preventable if Alaba was properly closed down on the edge of the box by the players.We benefitted from one of the dumbest tackles ever seen at the Aviva and a free header from a corner with no marker on the post.

I'm not being churlish. Long neraly scored a wonder goal and should have buried a second half header. I'm just saying that our goals weren't exactly evidence of a great performance, just as it's not right to say their equaliser was just the result of not closing down. It was the result of not recognising where the threat had been consistently coming from in the 20 preceding minutes and doing nothing about it.

I'm actually giving Trap credit for the games since but can we please not try and revise what happened at home to Austria as being some kind of barnstorming performance that was tragically cut short.

The German language commentary on youtube describing the penalty incident said it all to me: "Ireland, mit kick and rush..."

[tetsujin1979]

That said, I still don't trust Trap's selections so I worry about who he'll pick in September. Right midfield (Keogh, Cox..) is a constant worry.
It is a little, but Brady and Pilkington were unavailable for the recent games, and all the indications were that they would play some part. You'd have to imagine in the new season, with a full preseason behind both of them, they'll be vying for the starting berth on the right

[jbyrne]

We benefitted from one of the dumbest tackles ever seen at the Aviva and a free header from a corner with no marker on the post.

I'm not being churlish. Long neraly scored a wonder goal and should have buried a second half header. I'm just saying that our goals weren't exactly evidence of a great performance, just as it's not right to say their equaliser was just the result of not closing down. It was the result of not recognising where the threat had been consistently coming from in the 20 preceding minutes and doing nothing about it.

I'm actually giving Trap credit for the games since but can we please not try and revise what happened at home to Austria as being some kind of barnstorming performance that was tragically cut short.


where have I said it was a barnstorming performance? for about 20mins of the game I thought we could push on and win by a couple and for 20mins, particularly early on, i thought we might get a good beating. the rest of the game was the usual fine line of success / failure fare that we have served up for years now.

my post was in response to the all too common assertion that our woes are always down to the manager. its all "if trap gets the points" and "if trap picks the right players". i was merely pointing out that no manager can plan for what Clark did on the edge of his own box or the fact that Alaba was given too much room to get his shot off. the players count too