Rugby 2013

[Stuttgart88]

Craig Chalmers' son tests positive for steroids. Hardly a lone wolf?

And I see Jonny Sexton is having his "nearly crashed my Range Rover" moment.

[BonnieShels]

And I think we can see the cracks appearingt in the PRL-Top14 plan...


1126:
RUGBY UNION
European champions Toulon will not take part in the proposed Anglo-French tournament.

Toulon will instead remain in the Heineken Cup as a protest against the French league's plan to limit the number of foreign players.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/24577584

[swinfordfc]

That Irish team performance today was pure muck ..... scrum was crap against a so call weak scrum - irish media again talking through it's ar** - and next week will be a disaster altogether!!!!

[Charlie Darwin]

Bad as I've seen Ireland in over a decade.

[Stuttgart88]

and the Aussies had been drinking beforehand too!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24983640

[NeverFeltBetter]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1118/487432-rugby-world-cup/

Aviva, Thomond and RDS obviously, an expanded Ravenhill and maybe even Musgrave. But what other places are going to make up the 12 or 13 neccesary to host this event? Smallest capacity in NZ was 15K, and all other Rugby grounds in country would have to more than double in size to get that much. Must be banking on GAA playing ball.

[Mr A]

I believe the GAA have already said in principle that they'd let their grounds be used as part of a bid.

[BonnieShels]

They have. Was mentioned last year when Off the Ball pushed for this to happen.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Didn't even know they'd made that declaration. What kind of stadium pre-requisites will RWC require regards seating/terraces/covered stands/general condition if any?

Edit: GAA Congress gave its central committee authority to let GAA grounds be used, but I assume the actual arrangements for such a deal are yet to be hammered out. GAA could hold out for a lot.

[Real ale Madrid]

Didn't even know they'd made that declaration. What kind of stadium pre-requisites will RWC require regards seating/terraces/covered stands/general condition if any?


None really apart from having 4 major stadia to host the big games which will probably be Croker, Aviva, a redeveloped Casement Park - (which looks fairly inpressive http://www.u.tv/Sport/New-design-for-Casement-Park-launched/3c050d11-ac81-402e-8026-ec8cf247bef2) and 1 other GAA ground from Cork / Killarney / Thurles etc - throw in the regional rugby stadia and you will more than match what New Zealand had to offer in 2011.

Terracing etc is no problem as regards rugby games and some grounds in NZ had the temporary type stands you would see at the olympics / golf tournaments so id imagine that sort of thing could be utilized here as well.

Biggest problem I see is that I'm fairly sure South Africa are going to bid for this tournament as well, probably Italy as well. We would be behind both in terms of stadium infrastructure even with the GAA.

Its a great idea I think though - and if we provide a robust enough bid I'm sure we will get to host a tournament somewhere down the line - if not in 2023 then 2027 or 2031.

[OwlsFan]

I thought as Sexton lined up for that penalty I might be seeing an iconic moment in Irish sport but once the ball went wide, I feared the worse. One score ahead of the All Blacks would not be enough with 5 minutes to go.

Another heroic failure. How many of them have we seen in Irish sport over the years? I am not a rugby fan but I really felt that defeat but if you don't score in a half against World Champions, it's inevitable plus compounded by the stupidity of the early charge of the kicker for the conversion. A draw would have been something at least. I think Ireland got very close in New Zealand during the time of the Euros and then had a peno awarded against them late on by the same ref I think and lost. They were then trounced in the next game.

Very little consolation as a non-rugby fan in the performance when the result was so close. It reminded me of my friend Laughing Bill O'Herlihy saying at the end of the Henry French game that it was a "night for celebration" because of our performance. Devastation I'd say not celebration. My signature is my motto.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I'm not a rugby fan, so I just couldn't appreciate the apparent magnitude of what happened yesterday. Appearances would make it look like a glorified friendly, but people acted like it was the equivalent of Ireland/Spain 2002.

Some nonsense talked after the game though. Ireland "didn't deserve to lose" despite not scoring for 46 minutes, missing a game-killing penalty in the last ten and giving possession away with 30 seconds left on the clock.

[Stuttgart88]

I don't think a draw would have mattered. The context was that Ireland had never beaten the All Blacks in 108 years. Those players would have had a lifetime of after-dinner speaking opportunities had they won. Only in on one sense is it "just a glorified friendly" - the win was of as much real consequence as was the loss to Australia - but Test rugby has way more context than any football friendly, especially against the best and considering our record against NZ. Those players would have played that game like a big RWC match. I don't think many football friendlies would ever have that degree of commitment.

Sexton took too long with that penalty. I reckon he had half an eye on running the clock down, but I reckon he also psyched himself out in the process. Would the ref have been within his rights to pull him up? The kick was taken nearly 90 seconds after the award. I thought the rule was 60 seconds. Sexton also limped away after the kick suggesting he was injured going into it, so should he have even been on?

All told, too many daft mistakes. Giving away the penalty on 79:30 (McGrath?), Toner giving away a stupid penalty, Sexton's missed kick and so on. It makes you think just how lucky we were that Stephen Jones missed a very kickable last-kick-of-the-game penalty in Cardiff in 2009 that would have cost us the Grand Slam.

I think it was a gripping contest though, rugby union at its very best. The end will teach me to laugh at England in the rugby league when NZ did virtually the same thing in Saturday's WC semi final.

I suppose the difference between the rugby and the footy is that had that happened in the footy (as it has on umpteen occasions in my lifetime) I'd have been sick. Austria this year hurt like hell but I had got over the rugby soon enough. The Ashes first test had already made my sporting day.

[swinfordfc]

Toner mistake but just dumb - if i was coach - he be off straight away and would never play again! - if he was playing for the all blacks - that what would happen .....

[NeverFeltBetter]

The crowd had just started to shout at Sexton as he began his run-up too, out of impatience/worry I would assume, which might have thrown him off just a bit as well. Plenty of a bandwagoners in the Aviva, who were booing the NZ conversion kicker a few minutes later.

[OwlsFan]

I don't think a draw would have mattered. The context was that Ireland had never beaten the All Blacks in 108 years. I think it was a gripping contest though, rugby union at its very best. The end will teach me to laugh at England in the rugby league when NZ did virtually the same thing in Saturday's WC semi final.

I suppose the difference between the rugby and the footy is that had that happened in the footy (as it has on umpteen occasions in my lifetime) I'd have been sick. Austria this year hurt like hell but I had got over the rugby soon enough. The Ashes first test had already made my sporting day.

A draw would have prevented NZ winning all their games in a season and after the hurt of the last minute try, Ireland would at least have come away with something.

I saw the rugby league as well. Almost identical scenario although in League you have to surrender possession after 5 tackles so NZ always had a chance there. We couldn't hold on to the ball for another 20 seconds in the rugby without giving away the penalty. Yes I also recalled the Grand Slam penalty in Cardiff when it happened. That was almost another self-inflicted wound.

Cricket is the one sport where I follow England (Ireland didn't have a team playing test cricket) and I stayed up to 3.00 am to watch some of it on Saturday evening. When I heard Botham the flag waver predicting a 5-0 series win for England, I knew they'd be in trouble. The Australians are terribly arrogant and graceless once they win something (I know this from personal experience) and I hope England fight back. Trott has gone home with depression I heard as well. These tours are a long time to be away from families.

[geysir]

All told, too many daft mistakes. Giving away the penalty on 79:30 (McGrath?), Toner giving away a stupid penalty, Sexton's missed kick and so on. It makes you think just how lucky we were that Stephen Jones missed a very kickable last-kick-of-the-game penalty in Cardiff in 2009 that would have cost us the Grand Slam.

Was that penalty kickable? it was from the half way line, it was a triple crown kick, but all the pressure was created by O'Gara's drop goal. Imo, there was no luck involved. Whilst it was kickable, it was an outside chance. Had Jones ever converted such a pressure kick from the half way line before?
Sexton had a relatively straightforward kick from the 25, bread and butter at this level, Ireland were already ahead, some pressure but not the pressure of a kick to win the game at that stage.
A conversion would surely have put the game beyond the AB's.
As for the other crucial mistakes, they will happen, players on both sides made stupid mistakes especially when tired, but the out half should be almost perfect.

[Macy]

Obviously the missed penalty proved crucial, but there were other poor decisions in the last 10 - the box kicks from Murray and Sextons cross field kick (too much time hanging with O'Gara ;) ). The last penalty was probably a bit harsh, given what both teams were getting away with up to then. Gutted when they went over, even if it felt a inevitable after the penalty miss. Sexton was clearly carrying an injury, but there has to be a certain amount of personal responsibility to call yourself as unfit at that level, imo. I would add the caveat that because of various injuries we weren't able to make the changes when we wanted too. Who knows what impact some of the subs might've made introduced later.

The Kidney era, after his first season, was littered with one off great performances in the midst of rubbish. Schmidt's real task is to make it the standard for every game.

[Stuttgart88]

Was that penalty kickable? it was from the half way line, it was a triple crown kick, but all the pressure was created by O'Gara's drop goal. Imo, there was no luck involved. Whilst it was kickable, it was an outside chance. Had Jones ever converted such a pressure kick from the half way line before?
Was it a triple crown kick for wales?

Regardless, he made a kick from the exact same distance earlier in the game, so I think it was very kickable. It was ten-metre line rather than half-way, no? Most Test kickers have it in their range to kick from 40-45 metres, and Jones is a proper Test kicker who shouldn't have been that phased by the pressure.

Edit: just checked, yes it was a triple crown game for wales and it was about 3 or 4 metres into Ireland's half, so further than I remembered.

[geysir]

I'd say there's a world of difference between a kicker converting a 50m kick during a game and a high pressure 50m kick to win the game at the death.
Isn't Jones the Welsh player who appeared to bottle out of a last ditch pressure drop kick against France at WC 2011? One could say he was susceptible to doing the odd bottle.

Whereas you could say Ireland were fortunate in another game against Wales. The ref gave Wales very little chance to take advantage of a (deliberate?) knock on inside the Irish 25, followed by O'Connell (barely trotting) winning the ball from the 25 drop out and O'Gara having a pop, a mishít drop kick from distance with the ball summersaulting/spinning out of control, its way over the bar. I think all that happened in the same game in the last few minutes, but I could be mixing memories.

[shakermaker1982]

All I can add is that it was a fantastic game of rugby and fair ***** to New Zealand. No other team would have been able to come back after that first half pasting. McCaw and co were blown away and some of the hits were sickening. Savage intensity and it was a fantastic spectacle HT they dusted themself down and responded like the winners that they are.

[Mr A]

Saw this yesterday:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79hv2zxddSg

Fair play to Best, serious, borderline insane commitment.

[tetsujin1979]

Sexton also limped away after the kick suggesting he was injured going into it, so should he have even been on?He's been carrying a hamstring strain for a few weeks and was replaced after the kick by Madigan


Saw this yesterday:

Fair play to Best, serious, borderline insane commitment.It's absolutely insane, one missed tackle or bad catch and he'd make what's already a serious injury far far worse.

[tetsujin1979]

Ticket prices for the 2015 Rugby world Cup were released yesterday
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BaEu5QuIcAAxUvY.jpg
I'll have to start saving now to afford tickets to just the group games!

[OwlsFan]

Where do RTE get them from? Tom McGurk with the affected post accent (don't think he picked it up in Antrim where he is from), at the end of the Italian game, says the Championship decider is now in Paris, totally ignorant apparently of the fact that the England v Wales game had still to take place and that the winner was also going to be in with a shout.

Looking forward to that game in Paris. Is it written in the stars that the O'Driscoll will sign off with a Championship?

[NeverFeltBetter]

Yes but that game will be a decider, in so far as no champion will be crowned until it is completed (unlike England/Italy).

[Charlie Darwin]

Where do RTE get them from? Tom McGurk with the affected post accent (don't think he picked it up in Antrim where he is from), at the end of the Italian game, says the Championship decider is now in Paris, totally ignorant apparently of the fact that the England v Wales game had still to take place and that the winner was also going to be in with a shout.

Looking forward to that game in Paris. Is it written in the stars that the O'Driscoll will sign off with a Championship?
Well he was right. Regardless of the England result, France-Ireland is the final game and will be the decider.

[swinfordfc]

I feared this game on saturday night ..... will we choked again?

[Charlie Darwin]

Is that a riddle?

[Charlie Darwin]

We won.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I guess we didn't "choked again".

[Charlie Darwin]

I guess we didn't "choked again".
We "choked again" pretty good in the final phase to win the turnover :)

[OwlsFan]

So lucky not to be awarded a penalty for that last scrum. Why did the coach change the dominant front row to one that was obviously inferior and got hammered in the last three scrums.

Was sure they would lose in those last couple of minutes when France were awarded a penalty in their half after a prolonged period of Irish possession - memories of the New Zealand game. We were suddenly deep in our own half.

Won by a whisker but a win nonetheless. Great viewing and delighted despite not being a big rugby fan.

[Stuttgart88]

Super contest. I think we did our best to lose it though. Healy could have been binned for that infringement and the forward pass was a basic error with the line at their mercy. We got the big scores at the big times though and on were the better team but the score didn't fuly reflect that.

[SkStu]

When Rob Kearney launched that garryowen inside his own 22 I feared that we were determined to lose it in the last minute. Bizarre decision not to take it into contact with two-ish mins on the clock.

I was watching on French TV by the way, I thought that French try at the post shouldn't have been allowed for a host of reasons - what did I miss?

[swinfordfc]

Great match - but we nearly did throw it away in the end - Sexton kicking, Healy head butt, Kearney with a minute to go decides to do a up and under (what was that about) instead of holding onto the ball or kicking it right back into their 22!!!! and the forward pass by france - first time actually the french panic and threw it forward, if they had took they time, they be in the corner.

However it was great to give BOD this send off - by god we are going to miss him!

[Stuttgart88]

When Rob Kearney launched that garryowen inside his own 22 I feared that we were determined to lose it in the last minute. Bizarre decision not to take it into contact with two-ish mins on the clock.

I was watching on French TV by the way, I thought that French try at the post shouldn't have been allowed for a host of reasons - what did I miss?
The ref was convinced it was a good score in real time and awarded the try. If he had referred to TMO it'd surely have been disallowed.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I missed any controversy over that score, no way to hear the TV where I was, what was the issue?

[SkStu]

Well I noticed that the grounding alone was well dodgy and I don't think it was properly grounded but I also was unsure on the rules around playing near the post. Once that first contact was made I thought play would stop and restart with a 5m scrum.

My knowledge of the newer rules in rugby is not what it used to be when I was back home.

[BonnieShels]

Before the ball touched the post it was knocked on.

It would have been a killer if we'd lost on that basis.

Just about recovered from the insanity of watching all that yesterday.

[Charlie Darwin]

So lucky not to be awarded a penalty for that last scrum. Why did the coach change the dominant front row to one that was obviously inferior and got hammered in the last three scrums.
I think the front row were out on their feet at that stage. The French had changed both of their props by half time, and the replacements are better scrummagers than their starters. He had to bring on reinforcements but unfortunately they were playing against guys who had plenty of gas and were fully in the rhythm of the game. If it had been a 'normal' game and both sides had changed their front rows in the last 20, I think we would have held up better.


When Rob Kearney launched that garryowen inside his own 22 I feared that we were determined to lose it in the last minute. Bizarre decision not to take it into contact with two-ish mins on the clock.

I was watching on French TV by the way, I thought that French try at the post shouldn't have been allowed for a host of reasons - what did I miss?
Haha, we really don't make it easy for ourselves, do we? We did the same against New Zealand, kicking the ball wildly to the opposition with a couple of minutes to go. I think the team aren't as used to winning as they should be, otherwise they'd have finished the game with much more authority.

As far as the try goes, Szarzewski dropped the ball so it should have been disallowed, but France had a penalty already and we would definitely have had a man in the bin so we probably got lucky that he was awarded the try.

[BonnieShels]

That assessment of us not having authority is on the button. Salmon or White line fever would be equally apt.

Thankfully we didn't get punished for it in the end.

Hopefully come next year we'll have copped.

Am I the only one who thinks that Trimble was our MOTM?

[gastric]

That assessment of us not having authority is on the button. Salmon or White line fever would be equally apt.

Thankfully we didn't get punished for it in the end.

Hopefully come next year we'll have copped.

Am I the only one who thinks that Trimble was our MOTM?

He certainly was. The French are romantics, hence BOD got it!

[Real ale Madrid]

Beating the French gives us a huge psychological edge coming up to the world cup. The next 2 times we play them are in Dublin next year and in Cardiff at the World cup the following October. If we can follow up and beat them in Dublin next year we will be unbeaten against them in 4 games in the run up to the world cup game. A massive result in a variety of contexts.

[Stuttgart88]

France are a law unto themselves in World Cups though. They're a bit like Italy used to be in the football. Awful in the group stages, a bit lucky in a Q/F and then something catalyses a burst of form.

That said, I understand that fewer of the French players are at the very best clubs as big money overseas signings are starting to fill the big positions. Maybe Premier League syndrome (as it is perceived to exist) is taking hold in French rugby?

[Real ale Madrid]

France are a law unto themselves in World Cups though. They're a bit like Italy used to be in the football. Awful in the group stages, a bit lucky in a Q/F and then something catalyses a burst of form.



We play them when!?

[Stuttgart88]

Fair point!

[SkStu]

Am I the only one who thinks that Trimble was our MOTM?

I thought the same.

[Stuttgart88]

What do folk here think of the reported new Heineken Cup / European Cup agreement? From a competition perspective it looks like the English got their main demands. The Scots, Italians are likely to lose a place unless they buck up, and the Welsh are under pressure to improve performance. Ireland will still be at the cutting edge and I think the Pro 12 league will become more competitive with every place now being more important to fight for.

I'm relatively neutral on the revenue sharing adjustments as I haven't the time nor inclination to scrutinise "before and after" scenarios.

Replacing ERC with a Swiss equivalent is neither here nor there really, unless you work for ERC.

However, I have a feeling that the fault lines that caused this dispute have yet to be repaired. The RFU, despite helping to broker the deal, are still in poor shape and the PRL will be able to agitate for more concessions at some point in the future, most notably if more TV money came into the club game.

Nigel Wray of Saracens was quoted by Gerry Thornley as saying rugby will become more like football and will bend towards the demands of its TV paymasters and the clubs will seek to end the "feudal" relationship they have with the RFU. Wray was dismissive of lesser nations, including us, on basis that we don't bring big TV money to the table. He's right in one respect, though I think savvy English and French viewers - and broadcasters - know what value the Irish bring to European competition.

The WRU is loss making and seems to have lost control of its Regions.

Italy and Scotland's franchises are struggling (although Glasgow and Edinburgh both had good seasons in different ways last year).

There is a new breed of financially astute and very rich club owners ready to pounce on rugby's commercial potential in a way that the traditional club owners weren't.

As revenues are rising losses at clubs everywhere are mounting as salaries rise. French clubs are mimicking EPL clubs from 15 years ago.

Salary caps are in place but they differ from country to country and don't seem to be particularly successful. UEFA belatedly introduced uniform financial rules applying to clubs entering cross border competition, but there remains scope for rugby's major leagues to compete with each other for cross border success by being lax on financial regulation, and arguably club ownership criteria too. I'm just waiting for Ken Bates or even a Russian to buy a PRL club!

French clubs, like in the EPL, have fewer French players in key positions at the major clubs.

There is (probably understandably) a very noticeable two speed governance structure in Europe. FIRA is the European wide body that coordinates its member unions but at the same time, as far as I can tell, it delegates autonomy to the 6 Nations' Unions to do as they see fit wrt their clubs and national teams, and to organise and approve competitions between their clubs and national teams. FIRA is left to coordinate the lesser nations.

I have read UEFAs statutes and compared to IRB and FIRA. I can't find any internal "rules and regs" relating to 6 Nations Committee. UEFA runs all European club and national competitions, exploits the rights centrally and distributes money down the pyramid to all corners of Europe. It has successfully engaged with key stakeholders to keep the powerful clubs in line, albeit by making key concessions. The traditional structure of European football has largely survived the surge in TV revenues, but the rich/poor gap is wider than ever.

UEFA's statutes commit UEFA to the principle of solidarity and redistribution and also to prioritise sporting fabric over commercial interests. Ok, we can laugh a bit at how things really pan out, but I think a fair degree of balance is maintained. UEFA is also a very proactive formulator of policy. I see very little of this in IRB and FIRA, although words in a rule book are one thing, actions are another. But it does look like rugby has been reactive rather than proactive in the recent disputes.

What next? Does rugby need a real UEFA like body to take ownership of major competitions and act as a more inclusive umbrella body? I personally think so. Leaving the European Cup to be arranged by the clubs and leagues themselves is a recipe for future disharmony and blocks the pathway of smaller countries (however likely or unlikely their progress may be).

Opinion appreciated. I'm working on a paper examining this topic, hence my interest.

[Charlie Darwin]

What do folk here think of the reported new Heineken Cup / European Cup agreement? From a competition perspective it looks like the English got their main demands. The Scots, Italians are likely to lose a place unless they buck up, and the Welsh are under pressure to improve performance. Ireland will still be at the cutting edge and I think the Pro 12 league will become more competitive with every place now being more important to fight for.
Well Scotland and Italy have lost a spot. Wales are the biggest losers, as they'll go from three guaranteed spots to probably only having two participants in future.


Replacing ERC with a Swiss equivalent is neither here nor there really, unless you work for ERC.
Not sure about that. Moving to Switzerland will free the competition organisers from any kind of datasharing or corporate transparency, which could be good or bad depending on whose interests you're looking out for.


However, I have a feeling that the fault lines that caused this dispute have yet to be repaired. The RFU, despite helping to broker the deal, are still in poor shape and the PRL will be able to agitate for more concessions at some point in the future, most notably if more TV money came into the club game.
This is obviously just round one. There will be more demands when it next comes up for renewal.


The WRU is loss making and seems to have lost control of its Regions.
They were never really in control. They tried to do regionalism on the cheap and allowed private clubs to take the reins and they'll find it difficult to go back now.


There is (probably understandably) a very noticeable two speed governance structure in Europe. FIRA is the European wide body that coordinates its member unions but at the same time, as far as I can tell, it delegates autonomy to the 6 Nations' Unions to do as they see fit wrt their clubs and national teams, and to organise and approve competitions between their clubs and national teams. FIRA is left to coordinate the lesser nations.

I have read UEFAs statutes and compared to IRB and FIRA. I can't find any internal "rules and regs" relating to 6 Nations Committee. UEFA runs all European club and national competitions, exploits the rights centrally and distributes money down the pyramid to all corners of Europe. It has successfully engaged with key stakeholders to keep the powerful clubs in line, albeit by making key concessions. The traditional structure of European football has largely survived the surge in TV revenues, but the rich/poor gap is wider than ever.
There is no clear explanation for what exactly FIRA does - it doesn't organise any competitions or have any real authority over its own members. The Six Nations committee is still a law unto itself, effectively, and much of what FIRA set out to do has been taken over by the IRB.