Rugby 2013

[gastric]

Meant to post this earlier - but it seems we will be sending an "A" squad to Tbilisi this summer. How bad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_IRB_Nations_Cup

Aren't the Wolfhounds playing in the US too? Surprised they will be playing in two tournaments over the summer.
On Schimdt, it will be interesting to see how he goes with the IRFU suits. Some have talked about the end of the golden era, but hopefully he follows Wales and looks to the future which is exciting. McGrath, the Farrells, Byrnes, Brewer plus the likes of Madigan. Gilroy, Zebo and Marshall should excite us ove the coming years!

[Real ale Madrid]

Aren't the Wolfhounds playing in the US too? Surprised they will be playing in two tournaments over the summer.

No, the summer games in Nth America are full internationals. Although in reality it will essentially be an "A" team there and academy / u-23 players that will head to Tbilisi I'd imagine.

[Schumi]

On the Six Nations performance, there won't be many unavailable for the USA tour.

[NeverFeltBetter]

That Nations Cup thing, is that just two different tournaments under one banner, or do the winners of each play each other or something?

[Schumi]

Two separate tournaments afaik.

[gastric]

Kirchner signs for Leinster. Rated downunder, but has received mixed reviews from Leinster supporters. Will be interesting to see how he performs.

[Mr A]

Lions squad for the tour to Australia:


Backs: Leigh Halfpenny (Wales), Stuart Hogg (Scotland), Rob Kearney (Ireland), Tommy Bowe (Ireland), Alex Cuthbert (Wales), Sean Maitland (Scotland), George North (Wales), Jonathan Davies (Wales), Brian O'Driscoll (Ireland), Jamie Roberts (Wales), Manu Tuilagi (England), Owen Farrell (England), Jonathan Sexton (Ireland), Conor Murray (Ireland), Mike Phillips (Wales), Ben Youngs (England).

Forwards: Dan Cole (England), Cian Healy (Ireland), Gethin Jenkins (Wales), Adam Jones (Wales), Matt Stevens (England), Mako Vunipola (England), Dylan Hartley (England), Richard Hibbard (Wales), Tom Youngs (England), Ian Evans (Wales), Richie Gray (Scotland), Alun-Wyn Jones (Wales), Paul O'Connell (Ireland), Geoff Parling (England), Tom Croft (England), Toby Faletau (Wales), Jamie Heaslip (Ireland), Dan Lydiate (Wales), Sean O'Brien (Ireland), Justin Tipuric (Wales), Sam Warburton (Wales, captain)

I'd have though Rory Best was ahead of the likes of Hartley, who can be a total liability.

[Charlie Darwin]

Hartley shouldn't be anywhere near the squad. Matt Stevens is such a bizarre selection all you can do is laugh. He's gone back on his plan to bring a utility player who can cover 10, meaning no Laidlaw. No bolters in the squad. Underwhelming.

Still, you'd think injuries will take their toll on this squad.

[gastric]

Hartley shouldn't be anywhere near the squad. Matt Stevens is such a bizarre selection all you can do is laugh. He's gone back on his plan to bring a utility player who can cover 10, meaning no Laidlaw. No bolters in the squad. Underwhelming.

Still, you'd think injuries will take their toll on this squad.

Fair point Charlie, disappointed for Best, he deserved to go ahead of Hartley. Great to see O'Driscoll going, he should finally be a winner on a Lions Tour! Surprised Robshaw isn't going, at one point he was favourite to be captain.

[Mr A]

Hartley must be due a suspension so Best may well still have a shot at going.

[Macy]

Underwhelming squad. Hard to support any team with Hartley in it. tbh, Best played himself out - I'd have him ahead of Hartley, but he's given enough ammunition that his non selection can be justified imo. Gray is a bit left field too.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'd rather support kittens being dipped in acid than support Dylan Hartley.

[BonnieShels]

I'd rather support kittens being dipped in acid than support Dylan Hartley.

I'd rather support kittens being dipped in acid than watch a Lions tour.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'd rather support kittens being dipped in acid than watch a Lions tour.
Now that's just bloodthirsty.

[Mr A]

Hartley a doubt for the Tour as he was red carded today. Exactly why Gatland was a fool to select him in the first place, the guy is a total moron.

[BonnieShels]

How did Rory play today? Do his chances of heading to Oz any good?

[Mr A]

Best called into Lions squad officially.

[gastric]

Best called into Lions squad officially.


Mr A predicted this earlier in this thread, what a waste of space Hartley is.

[Mr A]

For some reason, the words "Roid Rage" keep popping into my head when Hartley is mentioned.

[Mad Moose]

I`vve never known if I`m on my own here in thinking this but what is the point of the Lions? I mean it`s never particularly fair or balanced a contest to have the pick of the best of a number of nations and pit them against another country. I similarly think the same of the game at club level. I know there would be no place for a Garryowen or Corinthians playing club head to head with say Toulon or Harlequins or Leicester Tiger but we pit an entire province against a club side from the other countries so it never seems fairly weighted.

I find it amazing how much appeal the Lions has. I`m not a particularly keen rugby fan but I just find the whole concept of the Lions to be a little bit pointless really.

My opinion only.

[Charlie Darwin]

The Lions originally came about because it due to the expense and amount of time involved, it wasn't feasible for individual unions to send their representative sides to the southern hemisphere, the way it was financially lucrative for the All Blacks to come up north, so they'd band together their resources. In more recent times, the Lions evolved as underdogs due to the Southern Hemisphere's near-domination of the upper echelons of the sport, so it became the challenge for British and Irish sides to try and put together a side capable of overcoming Southern Hemisphere opposition on their own patch. With professionalism, the idea has changed again, to see whether a scratch side of Britain and Ireland's best are capable of gelling quickly enough to beat the much better-preared Southern Hemisphere sides in a test series.

As for provinces v clubs... England has 3-4 times as many top teams as us and 8 times as many players. The provinces have smaller catchment areas than most English clubs.

[osarusan]

I`vve never known if I`m on my own here in thinking this but what is the point of the Lions? I mean it`s never particularly fair or balanced a contest to have the pick of the best of a number of nations and pit them against another country. I similarly think the same of the game at club level. I know there would be no place for a Garryowen or Corinthians playing club head to head with say Toulon or Harlequins or Leicester Tiger but we pit an entire province against a club side from the other countries so it never seems fairly weighted.

I find it amazing how much appeal the Lions has. I`m not a particularly keen rugby fan but I just find the whole concept of the Lions to be a little bit pointless really.

My opinion only.

Coincidentally, I just came in here to post this.

I've never really got the point/attraction of the Lions either. A combination of the best players from 4 countries. It's not really the issue of having a fair or balanced competition against the opponents, as they don't tend to fare much better than some of the individual test nations do on tours down there.

For me it's a question of what exactly the lions represents, and why I should support it.

One of my daughter's classmates is a Kiwi who works as the strength and consitioning coach for Suntory rugby team here in Tokyo, and he was asking me about this a few days ago. He said that in New Zealand, the explosion on the amount of rugby being played (especially Northern Hemisphere teams touring) has meant a Lions tour isn't what it used to be.


I feel kind of the same about the Ryder cup too. A strong national identity against a more vague continental/political identity (in my case at least).

[Macy]

Charlie laid out why the Lions developed, but in the professional era national sides do tour the southern hemisphere. However, for me it is important that Rugby maintains it's traditions, and that includes the lions. Of course it is commercial, but for the eligible players it is clearly an important thing to get recognition of a squad call up, let alone a cap.

For me, the lions was always a tradition that was talked about. So far, professional rugby has maintained a good few of them (tunnel at the end of the game, no back chat to refs etc). It's probably un-PC in underage rugby today, but we were taught about the importance of sticking up for team mates with reference to the 99 call from that South African tour.

I really can't say I care about it as much as Ireland, but whilst it retains its relevance to players it should be maintained. It appears to be hugely important for the game in Austrailia too, which is really suffering by accounts I've read. Perhaps there should be some development though, into a Southern Hemisphere tour (Argentina, South Africa, Austrailia and New Zealand) rather than the current single country format, with rotating warm up games against Super Rugby teams. The mid week games seem a bit pointless really - they don't really work in the modern game where 2 games a week isn't really doable.

Out of the games the last few weeks, it's the Barbarians that I can't really see a point of anymore. Which is a disappointment.

[Mad Moose]

Thanks to Charlie and Macy`s latter explanation of the Lions. For me I`m glad I`m not on my own when it comes to what I see when I think of the Lions. At this point of my life I`m really not sure of anything I think or say so maybe I`m not entirely off my trolley yet. The amount of Lions shirts that sell too. It`s incredible. The minute you pool the best of a number of countries together the obvious effect is you increase the chance of success. Are each of the nations so strong they couldn`t run a makeshift club side into the ground as part of a tour or run like for like international side close? I think we can, I think England and Wales can too.

Players talk about it been the pinnacle of their career to be selected for the Lions. Jaysus immortality eh? Bit of an anticlimax I think. Been a football follower I can`t help but equate rugby with football. So by the same principle as per the provinces in Rugby, where the same inequality exists, i.e population size, should we lump Waterford and Limerick together to create Munster and run a league that gets them into European competition and ultimately competing. Imagine St Pat`s, Shams, Bohs and Dundalk lumped together as Leinster then. Certainly a stronger side. With identity? Fair to other club sides? Not really but it works in Rugby but thats Rugby and thats it`s following really. Just a bit odd, a bit accepting and not really questioning.

I suppose my argument is competition should have some balance. Finn Harps v Everton, Paris St Germain v Derry City, Shelbourne v Deportivo La Coruna or Athlone Town v AC Milan. They were club for club and like for like. Fair, balanced, magical and memorable. The Lions v Western Union. Who gives a toss?. Who`ll remember?.

[swinfordfc]

Cian Healy is abit of a t**t as well for getting himself in trouble as well in the first game of the tour - he can go home and weep in greece with his woman the big child!!!! - he is nearly as bad as Hartley

[swinfordfc]

Well done to the Ireland Under 20's on their win over Australia..... Fiji next on sat/sun

[Charlie Darwin]

Cian Healy is abit of a t**t as well for getting himself in trouble as well in the first game of the tour - he can go home and weep in greece with his woman the big child!!!! - he is nearly as bad as Hartley
He hasn't been found guilty of anything.


Well done to the Ireland Under 20's on their win over Australia..... Fiji next on sat/sun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BajRUt8XgI

They should beat Fiji but will find it very tough to overcome the physically and technically superior Baby Blacks. Still, there's an outside chance they could make the top 4 as the best runner-up.

[Mr A]

Yeah, he's not quite in Hartley's league, but he certainly has his moments.

[Macy]

Players talk about it been the pinnacle of their career to be selected for the Lions. Jaysus immortality eh? Bit of an anticlimax I think. Been a football follower I can`t help but equate rugby with football. So by the same principle as per the provinces in Rugby, where the same inequality exists, i.e population size, should we lump Waterford and Limerick together to create Munster and run a league that gets them into European competition and ultimately competing. Imagine St Pat`s, Shams, Bohs and Dundalk lumped together as Leinster then. Certainly a stronger side. With identity? Fair to other club sides? Not really but it works in Rugby but thats Rugby and thats it`s following really. Just a bit odd, a bit accepting and not really questioning.
The Provincial teams/ Inter provincial competition in rugby goes back to the 1920's (predates the railway cup afaik), and was always the level above the clubs (even in the heyday of the club game in the pre-celtic league days). It's not the same as parachuting that structure on top of football at this stage.

I'm not sure I get your point about competition - the celtic league is made up of other regional sides/ franchises/ provinces? It suits Scotland, Wales and Italy to have the celtic league - it isn't just for the IRFU. You could add that many of the English and French teams are essentially franchises now as well (Sale Sharks has sod all to do really with Sale FC for example).

[Macy]

Cian Healy is abit of a t**t as well for getting himself in trouble as well in the first game of the tour - he can go home and weep in greece with his woman the big child!!!! - he is nearly as bad as Hartley
He was cleared. http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/cian-healy-cleared-of-biting-opponent-during-lions-match-1.1420448

[Real ale Madrid]

They should beat Fiji but will find it very tough to overcome the physically and technically superior Baby Blacks. Still, there's an outside chance they could make the top 4 as the best runner-up.

Saw the Baby Blacks struggle for 30mins against Fiji last Wednesday evening. It was 18-06 NZ when Fiji had a man red carded for a dump tackle. They had another man red carded in the second half as well as 3 more yellow card - they played a good share of the second half with just 12 men. On the evidence of the first 30 mins NZ are not that special - the Aussie's will give them a right test.

[BonnieShels]

And now Healy is out of the tour with an ankle injury.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22814956

[Charlie Darwin]

Saw the Baby Blacks struggle for 30mins against Fiji last Wednesday evening. It was 18-06 NZ when Fiji had a man red carded for a dump tackle. They had another man red carded in the second half as well as 3 more yellow card - they played a good share of the second half with just 12 men. On the evidence of the first 30 mins NZ are not that special - the Aussie's will give them a right test.
Four tries in the first half doesn't really seem like struggling to me.

[swinfordfc]

He was cleared. http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/cian-healy-cleared-of-biting-opponent-during-lions-match-1.1420448

i'm sorry - good that he was cleared for all the irish players and shame injury now has finish his tour .......

[Real ale Madrid]

Four tries in the first half doesn't really seem like struggling to me.

2 Tries in the first 32 mins and then it was easy against 14 , 13 and 12 men. Did you see it ? Maybe its just me but between minutes 5 and 35 they didn't look anything like the superpower they normally are at this level.

[Charlie Darwin]

I only saw the highlights, but I think your definition of struggling and mine are different. Struggling would indicate the result was ever in doubt, whereas it seems they were just a bit laboured.

[SkStu]

Yeah, he's not quite in Hartley's league, but he certainly has his moments.

Ah, we breed them in fairness. Clohessy, Popplewell etc... :) Hayes was an exception...

[passinginterest]

The under 20 world cup game with New Zeland was a good watch yesterday evening. They looked in for a hammering after 10 minutes of the second half but staged a great recovery and maybe should have won in the closing stages with the All Blacks down to 14 men but they were a bit over anxious and made costly errors in good positions. The attacking play from both teams was pretty spectacular at times and it was a very open and fast moving game. Plenty of horrible errors from both teams too but it made for an entertaining spectacle.

[Charlie Darwin]

Christian Wade and - seriously - Brad Barritt called up with doubts persisting over North and Roberts. It truly is silly season. Ian Madigan must be wondering what he's done to offend Gatland.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Has anyone else witnessed friends hurling themselves straight off the Lions bandwagon today? Several people on my FB feed claiming they won't even watch the last test now, having been big "fans" all along.

My problem with the Lions was that I couldn't get over a lack of identity with the idea, so I was never that into the tour. It appears to be now that a lot of others have that issue, and were only watching to see how the handful of Irish players got on.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think it's more loyalty to BOD than anything. I find Gatland's selections bizarre. They will lose heavily I think.

[geysir]

I have no identity with the Lions or the Ryder cup team for that matter, but I don't mind watching both these sport's events, top quality competition.

[Stuttgart88]

I've heard the Anglo Irish tapes have caused less uproar at home.

I can take or leave the Lions. If they win I'll be happy for a bit and if they lose I'll get over it after about 5 minutes. That said, I think both tests have been utterly gripping and compelling, although the quality of the second test was poor.

Gatland seems to have packed the team with players from the one country in UK and IRL that can't beat Australia!

I'm looking forward to Saturday. Shame about BOD but we have 4 others starting and no player is bigger than the team. I'd like to have seen him and Roberts play together again, but all good things come to an end.

[Stuttgart88]

Malachy Clerkin drawing some ire in the comments section for this article in the Irish Times.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gatland-s-dricectomy-matters-the-lions-winning-doesn-t-1.1453007?page=1

I have to say I largely agree, which is not to say I'm not gripped by this Lions series. I think Sky have covered it well though, and in general their rugby commentary and analysis is better than their football, bar Gary Neville.

"The Lions don't have supporters, they have an audience". It's a good observation although I'm not sure it matters whether they're fans as such, or event tourists with rugby at the centre of it. The folklore does give it context and it really does matter to the players and other insiders.

But for me, the result only matters for a very short time, not enough to make or ruin my lunch, let alone my day. Drawing with Austria still hurts, let alone Heysel, the 92 euros campaign, Macedonia....aaahh, they STILL hurt!

Btw, deliberate error above, of course we only have 3 starting.

Is Gatland going all Trapattoni on this one? To me, the evidence from Brisbane was that actually playing ball was the way forward, but immediately he reverted to the rugby equivalent of playing without the ball and trying the stifle a game and it looks like he has gone further in that direction now.

[Stuttgart88]

Gatland vindicated.

I proved my agreement with Malachy Clerkin. I was happy they won but after about ten minutes I couldn't give a fig. Probably closer to 5 actually. In fact I was glad Australia made a game of it because I wanted it to stay exciting. That'd never happen to me watching Ireland playing in any sport.

A bit of me is turned off the whole Lions thing in that it's the ultimate lads' rugby tour - great for the players for a lifelong bond, but it's a giant-sized version of the insider / outsider divisions that rugby created in my school and I'm pretty sure exists in most schools and colleges.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Great result for Cymru yesterday...

[NeverFeltBetter]

I couldn't help but log on to Twitter just as the game was drawing to a close yesterday. The sheer amount of people who spent that time, as their team won their first test series in yonks, bemoaning Gatland, insisting that BOD's inclusion would have made no difference to proceedings and a hair breath away from saying the better team lost was really eye-raising. I know there is an event junkie element to this, but its clear to me a big part of the Lions fanbase is super casual, and turned on the team the second "one of our own" was, in their eyes, wronged.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The ultimate 'event junkies'​ ??

[Schumi]

I know there is an event junkie element to this, but its clear to me a big part of the Lions fanbase is super casual, and turned on the team the second "one of our own" was, in their eyes, wronged.

Well obviously. The team exists for two months every four years, people's big rugby interest is hardly going to be in the Lions. It's ultimately a bit of fun at the end of the season for most people, no more. It's no surprise to me that most people are more invested in Brian O'Driscoll than the Lions.

[Charlie Darwin]

Joe Schmidt's first extended squad ahead of the Autumn Internationals:

Ireland Squad

Backs (18): Rob Kearney (Leinster), Robbie Henshaw (Connacht), Tommy Bowe (Ulster), Simon Zebo (Munster), Niall Morris (Leicester), Dave Kearney (Leinster), Fergus McFadden (Leinster), Luke Fitzgerald (Leinster), Brian O’Driscoll (Leinster), Keith Earls (Munster), Luke Marshall (Ulster), Gordon D’Arcy (Leinster), Jonathan Sexton (Racing Metro 92), Paddy Jackson (Ulster), Ian Madigan (Leinster), Conor Murray (Munster), Eoin Reddan (Leinster), Isaac Boss (Leinster).

Forwards (24): Cian Healy (Leinster), David Kilcoyne (Munster), Jack McGrath (Leinster), Stephen Archer (Munster), Declan Fitzpatrick (Ulster), Mike Ross (Leinster), Rory Best (Ulster), Seán Cronin (Leinster), Richardt Strauss (Leinster), Mike Sherry (Munster), Donncha O’Callaghan (Munster), Paul O’Connell (Munster), Donnacha Ryan (Munster), Mike McCarthy (Leinster), Devin Toner (Leinster), Dan Tuohy (Ulster), Iain Henderson (Ulster), Peter O’Mahony (Munster), Kevin McLaughlin (Leinster), James Coughlan (Munster), Shane Jennings (Leinster), Seán O’Brien (Leinster), Jamie Heaslip (Leinster), Chris Henry (Ulster).