2013 First Division

[nigel-harps1954]

I'll take that.

[wonder88]

When will the first divison start does anybody know ?

[nigel-harps1954]

You'd have to imagine on the same weekend as the Premier. If not, the weekend after.

[Longfordian]

The First Division has moved back to winter football so it'll kick off in August.

[Town Legend]

First Division??? Whats that? Is there even such a thing???

[NeverFeltBetter]

Better question would be when are license's are given out?

[adamd164]

The FAI are still trying to figure out whether they can fudge Waterford's application or will need to have Henderson knocked off instead. Then they'll move onto deciding how much subsidy Cobh will need to survive the season.

Give them time.

[blue til i die]

The FAI are still trying to figure out whether they can fudge Waterford's application or will need to have Henderson knocked off instead. Then they'll move onto deciding how much subsidy Cobh will need to survive the season.

Give them time.

The issue with Henderson has nothing to do with the licence. But yes, all the fudge is on the way to Waterford. :cool:

[Trainee]

The issue with Henderson has nothing to do with the licence. But yes, all the fudge is on the way to Waterford. :cool:

As Henderson is classed as a football creditor it should be a licence issue? I think the rule is you have to have paid any outstanding footballing debts or have a signed agreement with the person to pay it off over time.

If Waterford don't have an agreement with their former manager who they owe money why should they get a licence when Cobh could fail to get a licence because they owe former players money?

[nigel-harps1954]

Because there isn't enough teams to be turning anyone away ;P

[nigel-harps1954]

http://www.finnharps.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1002:pre-season-continues-in-letterkenny-as-five-more-agree-terms&catid=39:news-from-finn-park&Itemid=101

Harps in training at the indoor 3g complex in Letterkenny. Strength and conditioning. Players will be like machines come the start of the season.

[blue til i die]

As Henderson is classed as a football creditor it should be a licence issue? I think the rule is you have to have paid any outstanding footballing debts or have a signed agreement with the person to pay it off over time.

If Waterford don't have an agreement with their former manager who they owe money why should they get a licence when Cobh could fail to get a licence because they owe former players money?

It is part of licensing. But the case is gone to an appeal before the High Court, it wont be heard by the time the season starts, so no agreement can physically be made since it may end up end not owing anything.

[Quayman]

http://www.finnharps.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1002:pre-season-continues-in-letterkenny-as-five-more-agree-terms&catid=39:news-from-finn-park&Itemid=101

Harps in training at the indoor 3g complex in Letterkenny. Strength and conditioning. Players will be like machines come the start of the season.

Thats very similar to what we have at Oriel.

[adamd164]

This is slightly off topic but just to save me trawling another thread, what's the latest with Harps' new ground? Is it still being constructed?

[nigel-harps1954]

This is slightly off topic but just to save me trawling another thread, what's the latest with Harps' new ground? Is it still being constructed?

I often ask myself the same question Adam.

Last I heard was the EGM just before Christmas, where they said that foundations for the second stand are to be done in the new year with steel structures to follow soon after, as soon as the new draw-down of grant money comes through.

After that, your guess is as good as mine.

[nigel-harps1954]

Thats very similar to what we have at Oriel.

Delighted for you.

[BonnieShels]

Delighted for you.

How oddly snipey.

[nigel-harps1954]

How oddly snipey.

It almost felt apt.

[Trainee]

Taken from Mervue utd website

Mervue Utd have announced a couple of pre-season warm up games ahead of the new Airtricity First Division campaign which will begin on the 1st March.
http://www.mervueunited.com/news/210751/o_dl_ou_d

It more than likely a mistake and it will start on the 8th but its LOI so god only know if its a mistake or not

[daithi]

When are we gonna find out what is happening with the coming season? Whats the holdup?

[Mr A]

I guess they're waiting for licensing to be completed.

[Dodge]

Last year the fixtures were announced on January 26th, and licenses were announced on 15th February

Its a bit trickier this year as there's currently only 7 confirmed teams. I guess it'd be obvious enough that who's ever idle would play Cobh but still awkward

[Partizan]

Last year the fixtures were announced on January 26th, and licenses were announced on 15th February

Its a bit trickier this year as there's currently only 7 confirmed teams. I guess it'd be obvious enough that who's ever idle would play Cobh but still awkward

and yet we still have FAI, the usual Dublin based clubs and posters on here who still insist on this farcical set up purely for their own self interest.

For the good of Irish football my arse.

[bluewhitearmy]

and yet we still have FAI, the usual Dublin based clubs and posters on here who still insist on this farcical set up purely for their own self interest.

For the good of Irish football my arse.


And im sure you would be just as upset about it if ye had beaten Dundalk in the play-off yes?

[Dodge]

and yet we still have FAI, the usual Dublin based clubs and posters on here who still insist on this farcical set up purely for their own self interest.


Don't remember a single post on here (from a Dublin or country based poster) saying a 7 or 8 team league is fine. Any links?

[nigel-harps1954]

Don't remember a single post on here (from a Dublin or country based poster) saying a 7 or 8 team league is fine. Any links?

Not so much saying an 8 team division was fine, more so that they had to persist with the 12 team Premier. A backhanded way of saying it really.

[nigel-harps1954]

Taken from Mervue utd website

Mervue Utd have announced a couple of pre-season warm up games ahead of the new Airtricity First Division campaign which will begin on the 1st March.
http://www.mervueunited.com/news/210751/o_dl_ou_d

It more than likely a mistake and it will start on the 8th but its LOI so god only know if its a mistake or not


It was amended to say the 8th March.

[wonder88]

Is there any chance that 3 new teams be allowed into the 1st Div this year ? If not, it looks like it will be a one divison league next year with 18 teams, a spilt after one round of matches between a top and bottom half. It will mean 31 league games for all teams, easier to fit in than the current 33 game season.

[L.T.F.C.]

That won't happen.

[NeverFeltBetter]

As far as I know only Cobh's application has been treated seriously. I'm not even sure that, aside from the mess with GUST, anyone else even applied.

[nigel-harps1954]

They should be right and damned kicked round the offices in Abbotstown for not begging a few clubs to join the league and at this stage, for not welcoming the GUST application with open arms.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Maybe they did. It just isn't a smart investment for a club.

I mean, there's Cobh, still have serious debt problems, but look like the most likely candidates. GUST have been told to not bother. Tralee was supposed to have an AGM on this topic I think but I don't remember ever reading anything else about that. Has there been any indications at all from anyone else? Fanad, Carlow, Castlebar? Are there any clubs out there big enough to see the First Division as something to actually aim for as opposed to a black hole of financial difficulties and stagnation?

[Jofspring]

I know if I was running a club that has been going well and had built up decent facilities I wouldn't risk the club for the sake of a few years in the first division unless I was 100% guaranteed it was financially viable.

[adamd164]

Is there any chance that 3 new teams be allowed into the 1st Div this year ? If not, it looks like it will be a one divison league next year with 18 teams, a spilt after one round of matches between a top and bottom half. It will mean 31 league games for all teams, easier to fit in than the current 33 game season.
The Premier Division fixtures have been out since before Christmas!

[NeverFeltBetter]

I think he meant a one tier system in 2014?

FAI seems very committed to a two-tier system anyway, and is more likely to look to reserve or "A" sides to fill the gaps then change that.

[adamd164]

33 games isn't too many - the problem is the stupid mid-season break, which means that the games that would be on during that period are moved to midweek. The league season is very short in comparison to other countries.

[nigel-harps1954]

We should just go back to winter football.

[citybone]

We should just go back to winter football.

I dont see how having a load of postponements and getting worse results in Europe will help the league, Since the move to summer football results have been better in Europe, pitch's are in much better shape, helping club's and young players improve their skills rather than playing in a over physical hoofball league. The only reason i can think of why a winter football would help is the promotion of clubs from intermediate to senior football and not clashing with GAA.

Bringing this up over and over again is stupid. The FAI is screwing up the league system yes, after 2002 there was a review of the league, the Genesis Report said the best system in a small country like ours was two 10 team leagues. Having a 12 team premier division is great for the premier division but makes the first division a total balls. Getting three more clubs into senior football would be better than this but is unrealistic.

Getting one more team for now would be good and reverting to two ten team leagues until such time as two more clubs want to join Senior Football which could be a few years down the line.

[wonder88]

Why are people so against a one tier league, with a spilt at the halfway stage ? It seems that the distaste of the Dublin clubs (and some of the stars of the league) for travel is the main reason for the current setup. No wonder league of Ireland teams perform so poorly in europe, with such a lenster senior league mentality.

[Charlie Darwin]

LOI teams perform above their level in Europe.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

LOI teams perform above their level in Europe.

Speak for yereselves!

[nigel-harps1954]

I dont see how having a load of postponements and getting worse results in Europe will help the league, Since the move to summer football results have been better in Europe, pitch's are in much better shape, helping club's and young players improve their skills rather than playing in a over physical hoofball league. The only reason i can think of why a winter football would help is the promotion of clubs from intermediate to senior football and not clashing with GAA.

Bringing this up over and over again is stupid. The FAI is screwing up the league system yes, after 2002 there was a review of the league, the Genesis Report said the best system in a small country like ours was two 10 team leagues. Having a 12 team premier division is great for the premier division but makes the first division a total balls. Getting three more clubs into senior football would be better than this but is unrealistic.

Getting one more team for now would be good and reverting to two ten team leagues until such time as two more clubs want to join Senior Football which could be a few years down the line.


Jesus christ man, relax, I was messing.

On another note, the winter season has done no wrong with the under 19 league. So, your point regarding helping young players improve their skills is invalid.

Plus, this is Ireland we're talking about. Weather isn't a factor all year round, as it's as bad now as it was in August.

[Dodge]

Why are people so against a one tier league, with a spilt at the halfway stage ? It seems that the distaste of the Dublin clubs (and some of the stars of the league) for travel is the main reason for the current setup. No wonder league of Ireland teams perform so poorly in europe, with such a lenster senior league mentality.

Well we tried the split before, and it was horrendous. Quickly scrapped after its 2 year trial period

One divison without promotion/relegation is awful too.

Flutering about with league formats will solve nothing IMO

[gormacha]

Re Dodge's comments: the split thing was awful, I agree. A single division witout promotion/relegation is awful too. But the PD/FD as it currently stands is also awful. If it was described as the "two division experiment", it would be deemed to have failed, as a financial, sporting and cultural endeavour.

As currently structured, the FD is little more than a safety net that allows the occasional PD club to fold whilst having minimal impact on the PD itself. Monaghan fold? No problem, we'll reconstitute the PD as a 12 club league, and the divil take the FD.

I have some sympathy with the argument that FD clubs have to earn the right to play in the PD. In fact, I have a lot of sympathy with that argument. However, given the advantages that PD clubs enjoy, there is, most seasons, in reality, really only one promotion spot available. Even in a poor FD, its hard to win that spot, especially when some clubs flood their resources in order to do it. Some won't (e.g. Waterford, Athlone, Longford) and some can't (and probably won't, as well) (e.g. Mervue, Salthill). Good club governance is actually a barrier to promotion.

I don't see things changing, and I've lost my anger around it. I'm more bemused now, both by the FAI and the intransigence of most PD clubs, on whom I think the change would have very little impact. It would be a lifeline to some FD clubs, and at very little cost to some PD clubs.

And I will still make the same arguments if Waterford United ever finally get out.

[Dermotron]

Would it would be more practical to allow and admit Premier Division clubs to have a II or B team in the First Division rather than leaving only 7 teams in it? The majority of the smaller nations in Europe (and quiet a few of the larger nations) have a second team in a competitive league.

I know the A Championship was dissolved and was meant as a breeding ground for young players, a chance for teams to get into the league and football for those not getting games at the bigger clubs. From my understanding the U19 league has replaced this. Not saying to disband the U19 league and create II teams at all, but surely having B teams in the First Division would be workable solution rather than a 7 team league. The last A Championship had 14 B teams and 4 clubs trying to earn a spot in the League. Of those 14 B Teams there are probably 5-6 clubs that would be able to accommodate and maintain a decent standard B team. And Cobh may or may not be back to enlarge the league further.

Of course there's a bit more regulation to enforce that certain players can only play X amount of games for the A team or after a certain period can't drop back but surely it be a progression on the current set-up.






On a side note I was reading an article on the set-up of Estonia clubs - ALL only have permission to enter the league on the grounds that they meet the following criteria - have a mens 1st and reserve team, a youth team structure (u12-18) and a womens team. A certain amount of youth players must be within a radius of the club and there are exemptions when 2 (or more) clubs are in the same catchment area. Done right that's a hell of lot of the local community in one club from a playing persceptive alone. Far more sustainable long term

[Dodge]

Here's how the PD/FD split has gone

1985/86 - 1991/92 (7 seasons) - 12 PD/10 FD - 2 relegated/2 promoted
1992/93 - 2000/01 (9 seasons) - 12 PD/10 FD - 2 relegated/2 promoted - PO between 1 PD/1 FD
2001/02 (1 season) - 12 PD/9 FD - 3 relegated/1 promoted - PO between 1 PD/1 FD
2002/03 - 2003 (2 seasons) - 10 PD/12 FD - 1 relegated/1 promoted - PO between 1 PD/3 FD
2004 (1 season) - 10 PD/12 FD - 1 relegated/3 promoted
2005 (1 season) - 12 PD/10 FD - 1 relegated/1 promoted - PO between 1 PD/1 FD
2006-2007 (2 seasons) - 12 PD/10 FD - 1 relegated/1 promoted - PO between 1 PD/2 FD
2008 (1 season) 12 PD/10 FD - 3 relegated/1 promoted
2009 (1 season) 10 PD/12 FD - 1 relegated/1 promoted - PO between 1 PD/2 FD
2010 (1 season) 10 PD/12 FD - 1 relegated/1 promoted - PO between 2 PD/2 FD
2011 (1 season) 10 PD/11 FD - 0 relegated/2 promoted - PO between 1 PD/1 FD
2012 (1 season) 12 PD/8 FD - 1 relegated/1 promotoed - PO between 1 PD/1 FD


So only once in the last 10 years has it been the same format.

(You can see how the play offs went here; http://statsthatarepointless.wordpress.com/2012/11/13/play-off-woes-for-waterford-and-joy-for-others/ )

[Sam_Heggy]

Were we the last club to be relegated??

It's such a pity we didn't spend over a million euro in a crazy bid to turn professional and establish ourselves in the PD.............

[gormacha]

Personally, I'd be appalled at reserve teams playing in the FD. This is based more on a gut reaction of feeling slighted than on a reasoned argument.

If reserve teams did play in the FD, it would be the surest sign of a league failure, and that power rests in the hands of a very small amount of clubs.

I've been banging the drum of the Estonian model for years. I didn't know the model existed there, so I didn't have a name for it, but I've long held that opinion. I would love to see it developed and enforced. The interaction with the junior and intermediate leagues would be something to behold though. Light the touchpaper and stand well back.

[Dodge]

Were we the last club to be relegated??


technically Galway were relegated after losing the 2011 play offs. They didn't get a license for 2012

Harps/Cobh/UCD relegated together (Harps 3rd bottom - as you know)

[nigel-harps1954]

That Estonian model is absolutely fantastic indeed. But would it work here? Doubtful.