End of year assessment of trap's ireland

[mark12345]

Ok it's a couple of weeks before Christmas and there's not an international in sight. Time perhaps to take a look towards 2013 and beyond to search for a way forward for this Irish team, if indeed there is one.

2012 was a year when the record books will show that we were 'found out' and who among us could argue with that assessment. Euro 2012 was a disaster and showed Trap's team up as one with a distinct lack of talent. The home game against Germany was even bigger proof of the same point and the overriding ailment in Irish teams over time -a lack of technical ability bordering on criminality - emerged once again as the biggest stick to beat ourselves with.

There appears to be a changing of the guard at present - Given, Duff and possibly Dunne are gone while Robbie is in the waning days of his international career. What Robbie has to offer any longer is negligible, and as always occurrs when a group of senior players retire, we have to wait until the next star man comes along. When that will be, who knows? And who that will be, who knows also?

Robbie Brady just may be the heir apparent to his namesake, but it is clear that we are lacking severely in many areas of the team.

Where is the hope for the future, and indeed for the remainder of the World Cup campaign? I would like to see the most talented players we have put on the pitch at the same time by Trap. That would be a team including Shane Long, Wes Hoolahan, Stephen Ireland, James McCarthy, Darron Gibson and James McClean or Aiden McGeady. I also see hope in the fruits of a battle between Seamus Coleman and Joey O'Brien for the right back spot.

But then there's the down side - like a defence which can do nothing else but hoof the ball long and a culture which lends itself to safety first football. We simply don't place an emphasis on ball retention and because of this are destined to spend most of the time, against the better international teams, chasing shadows.

There are good prospects out there to be sure, like Joe Mason, Anthony Pilkington if he comes on board, David Meyler, Owen Garvan, the Villa youngsters and of course Andy Reid, but in reality we just have too small a pool of players to pick from.

I believe the answer lies in looking away from English football to the little clubs of Europe who have managed to find a home in the Europa League. The likes of Viktoria Plzen, Young Boys, Rosenborg, Copenhagen, and the Israelis clubs are models the League of Ireland clubs should aspire to emulate. We nearly had it a couple of seasons ago when Shamrock Rovers had that great run in Europe, but this year they were bounced out before the competition proper got going.

How good would it be though if we could depend on an Irish domestic club or two to have a decent run in Europe each year? League of Ireland, I never thought I would say it, is the future for the internatioal team. The better the game at home - the larger the pool of players we are going to have to call on.

And proof of this I suppose is the performances of Long, Doyle and Hoolahan since they went to England. There is good talent at home and we need to give it a platform to develop into something worthwhile.

[Supreme feet]

It's been a bit of an 'annus horribilis'. Few positives to take away, though the standard of opponent was, in Germany, Spain, Croatia and Italy, of a greater calibre than any that we've faced in one year, as far back as I can remember. In the past, we've been able to take points off bigger sides when - like Holland in 2001 and France/Italy in 2009 - the opposition has proven over-rated or badly coached. This didn't happen with our more illustrious opponents this year.

I'm not a utopianist when it comes to the Irish side - we have never consistently won games or strolled to qualification by playing free-flowing football; even in that outstanding campaign for 2002 under McCarthy, we had to rely on graft, grunt, good defence and good fortune at various times. So, with that in mind, I was a Trap supporter between 2008 and 2011. I felt that the style of play, based on solid defence and a hard-working, stifling midfield, was appropriate for the player pool in terms of grinding out results against weaker sides and picking up points against the higher seeds. The 2012 qualifying campaign was a success - too many times, we've thrown away qualification for want of results against lower-seeded teams - think Liechtenstein and NI in 1995, Macedonia in '97 and 99, Lithuania and Iceland in the '98 qualifiers, Israel home and away in 2005; Trap eliminated those silly results, which have enabled us to be competitive at the 'business end' of the table. Even now, we have 6 points from 9. Trap deserves some credit for that, given that our player pool has been quite weak over the last few years.

However, the damning fact about Trap's tenure - all the way along - has been his bizarre selections on the fringes of the squad, and his refusal to make unforced changes to the starting XI. The team that started against Croatia was identical bar Kilbane/Ward from the first-choice in 2009. Players have not been able to play their way into the side on club form, which is simply wrong. This policy has come home to roost this year with the various injures and retirements, particularly against Germany, when we started with five Championship players - while regular EPL players like Long, Hoolahan, O'Brien, Gibson, McClean, Clark and Wilson languished either on the bench or at home. These players should have been blooded 18 months ago. Now we're faced with the prospect of a Sweden/Austria double header in March, where we know that our best team will not be picked. Even if by some miracle, Trap picks the right team, our most talented players will be going into the game without much international experience, having been waiting in line behind journeymen for the last two years. It doesn't fill me with hope.

Add to this the fact that our defence - so reliable in 2011 - seems to have fallen apart, and we look like conceding in every game. Also, Trap has developed this irritating new habit of playing strikers on the wing, which is almost Staunton-esque in its absurdity. I think we'll be playing for nothing more than future seedings after March, unfortunately. Trap is not getting the best out of the current pool of players, and the trends of the last year are worrying, since Sweden and Austria present a much tougher proposition than Bulgaria/Cyprus or Slovakia/Armenia.

Still, on the plus side, there seems to be a decent conveyor belt of talent - no world-class individuals, but plenty of players who could have a good international future. Coleman, Wilson, Clark and McCarthy have been belatedly introduced to the team, and others should follow. Gibson will be a big asset if/when he re-commits. Here's hoping that McClean can step up again, and that Pilkington gets his passport sorted. Meyler and Stevens could emerge as credible options too. We'll surely have a bolter like Garvan, Quinn or Mason getting promoted and getting more exposure to the top level, which may give us another option or two. The U-21s had a fine victory over Italy in the autumn, and hopefully the better players from that level - Egan, Duffy, Cunningham, Hendrick - continue to develop. We'll surely see one of the other Villa kids step up too, and hopefully the LOI will continue to produce talent of the Stevens/Maguire/Forrester mould. In terms of the player pool, things should improve.

However, the positive influence that Trap brought to the side in 2008 - organisation, discipline, solid defence, ability to grind out results - seems to have been lost over the last year, and the beatings handed to us this year will not be forgotten. The side needs an injection of new blood and confident, in-form players, and we have the resources to do so - but I'm far from convinced that Trap is the man to preside over such a transition.

[geysir]

In a nutshell, we're hopeful, but at the same time not hopeful.

[p2011]

I think it is very hard to be anything other than negative about the 12 months just gone by, and about the 24-36 months gone by if you ask me too. I'm not duped by 2nd in a weak group and drawing Estonia.

I don't think Trap is the man to take us forward. He doesn't seem to have any interest in Ireland post 2013 or in developing us. The communication is ludicrous - Greece's manager is from Portugal and spoke his own language at the press conference in Dublin,
which the Greek and world press can then get in their own language. Trap on the other hand speaks and hides behind his impenetrable English.

The present setup doesn't seem to know the players or their strengths. How is Paul Green picked and played ahead of Gibson or Hoolahan after the seasons they had last year? Why is Cox always on the wing when form wingers are on the bench and Cox is always so ineffective? Why was Fahey used as a man-marker v Germany and then hauled off when he was one of the few players picking out a pass and retaining the ball for a few seconds? Manmarking is not Fahey's game and taking him off opened the floodgates - a real masterstroke that. Why are McClean and McCarthy used in the no. 10 role when it is not their position? So that Trap can say the no. 10 doesn't work? And what does Long have to do to get into the team? Why is Walters preferred when he only attracts our predictable and completely ineffective hoofball? Why is Keane preferred when he doesn't have the energy to press top-class teams? The list is endless.

The experimentation that Trap has grudgingly carried out also seems half-assed. If you're going to try out Hoolahan, why not put him on from the start with our other form players and ball players around him, like Long and Brady. Instead he gets a typical 2nd half of a friendly when we're already behind and himself has to deal with a load of substitutions. What's the point of trying him out with the likes of Cox and then Keogh on the wing? And what's the point of starting Brady then always hauling him off at half-time? Is Brady promising or not? Is he worth playing in competitive games or not? I don't think Traps knows. Why is Coleman dropped in at the deep end against Germany? I don't think Trap is serious about renewing the team.

The present regime is looking very unprofessional und unprepared. It doesn't seem to "get" the Irish mentality, no matter how much Trap uses this word. We back to boxing below our weight at the moment and in need of a change.

[Stuttgart88]

Hard to argue against most of that.

I think 2012 was an unusual year because, by definition, we were up against the toughest opposition we'd faced and more regularly. We were shown to be badly wanting which meant that the cracks that had been papered over in previous years were now exposed. Stuff that was just about tolerable en route to qualification (communication, odd selections...) became intolerable.

I still think there are good parts to the broader picture but I think Trap's tenure will be over next year and I'm looking forward to a change.

[p2011]

That's fair enough. If his tenure is over next year, then this campaign will have been a failure and a waste - and that's a pity!

We did face particularly tough opposition this year, but the fare against the Czechs, Bosnia, Hungary and Kazakhstan was hardly great either. And when we did face tough opposition, Trap seemed resigned to losing to them, even saying as much by blaming the players in public. That's not the Ireland we support.

[mark12345]

Hard to argue against most of that.

I think 2012 was an unusual year because, by definition, we were up against the toughest opposition we'd faced and more regularly. We were shown to be badly wanting which meant that the cracks that had been papered over in previous years were now exposed. Stuff that was just about tolerable en route to qualification (communication, odd selections...) became intolerable.

I still think there are good parts to the broader picture but I think Trap's tenure will be over next year and I'm looking forward to a change.

All true, but does anyone have an opinion on whether the betterment of the LOI is the way forward for the international team?

[AlaskaFox]

Hard to argue against most of that.

That's why I'm going to try...



IThe present setup doesn't seem to know the players or their strengths. How is Paul Green picked and played ahead of Gibson or Hoolahan after the seasons they had last year? Why is Cox always on the wing when form wingers are on the bench and Cox is always so ineffective? Why was Fahey used as a man-marker v Germany and then hauled off when he was one of the few players picking out a pass and retaining the ball for a few seconds? Manmarking is not Fahey's game and taking him off opened the floodgates - a real masterstroke that. Why are McClean and McCarthy used in the no. 10 role when it is not their position? So that Trap can say the no. 10 doesn't work? And what does Long have to do to get into the team? Why is Walters preferred when he only attracts our predictable and completely ineffective hoofball? Why is Keane preferred when he doesn't have the energy to press top-class teams? The list is endless.

The experimentation that Trap has grudgingly carried out also seems half-assed. If you're going to try out Hoolahan, why not put him on from the start with our other form players and ball players around him, like Long and Brady. Instead he gets a typical 2nd half of a friendly when we're already behind and himself has to deal with a load of substitutions. What's the point of trying him out with the likes of Cox and then Keogh on the wing? And what's the point of starting Brady then always hauling him off at half-time? Is Brady promising or not? Is he worth playing in competitive games or not? I don't think Traps knows. Why is Coleman dropped in at the deep end against Germany? I don't think Trap is serious about renewing the team.

The present regime is looking very unprofessional und unprepared. It doesn't seem to "get" the Irish mentality, no matter how much Trap uses this word. We back to boxing below our weight at the moment and in need of a change.

1. Green's inclusion always gets scorn, but aside from Russia at home (where Whelan was even more anonymous in the middle) when has he put in an Irish performance that merits the outrage? Green is usually reliable in midfield. Trap knows what he can do. In the last 2 years, Green has played 10 competitive minutes for Ireland. Gibson has played 77. Go figure.

2. Cox on the wing isn't the best idea, but he's a very hard worker and does give 110% each game. However, he has never been picked ahead of a "form winger". McClean has been out of sorts this season, while Brady was with Man Utd reserves during the last few qualifiers. After Euro 2012, I thought Dunne retiring would be the worst possibility, but in fact Duff's loss is a hundred times greater. There's no-one that comes close. At least St Ledger and O'Shea are both experienced centre backs (for club and country).

3. Fahey as a man-marker was a bad idea, especially given that he never is asked to do that for his club (not even when he was in LOI either). However, I wouldn't say his attacking play was better than anyone else's. Statistically, he attempted 10 passes in 51 minutes, completing just six of them. McCarthy made 78% of 27 and Andrews 87% of 31. Taking Fahey off didn't open the floodgates. The penalty did.

4. Both bad ideas by Trap, but he hasn't persisted with either, so he's learned from those mistakes.

5. Leaving out Long is indefensible.

6. We're playing that style anyway, regardless of who is up front. Walters actually is suited to it. More than Keane anyway. That said, Long should start up front in every game.

7. Blind loyalty, but also because Keane proved during Euro 2012 qualification that he was still our best goalscoring threat. He also won the crucial penalty against Kazakhstan, so still has something to offer.

8. Hoolahan should get another chance against Poland, but if he's more than just a naughty boy, then he should be able to prosper with Cox and Keogh as well as with Brady and Long.

9. Trap isn't rushing Brady, but afaik he was injured in the Faroes game, so Trap took him off for that reason. He probably would've gotten longer otherwise. And as that was a competitive game, he obviously has faith in him.

10. The Coleman deep-end/renewing the team points are kind of paradoxical. If he didn't want to progress, then Paul McShane would've started RB in that game.

[geysir]

I had suppressed most of those memories.
'The Madness of Trap' ranks with King Lear.

[SkStu]

All true, but does anyone have an opinion on whether the betterment of the LOI is the way forward for the international team?

It is the only way. I have been saying it since Stauntons reign. But it's more of a culture shift in our thinking than just saying the league needs to get better. It is change that is required from the FAI's player development policy, to the administration of the grassroots & league, to marketing, to elimination of small p politics to something as simple as a clearly defined mission statement. That requires leadership. Strong leadership. it will also require sacrifice arising from a unity of purpose.

The league, despite all the challenges the teams face, has proved that it produces or can produce international class talent. Imagine what it could do with a bit of support from the public and strength in its leadership? And given what I've listed above, that's the "easy" part.

[p2011]

1. Green's inclusion always gets scorn, but aside from Russia at home (where Whelan was even more anonymous in the middle) when has he put in an Irish performance that merits the outrage? Green is usually reliable in midfield. Trap knows what he can do. In the last 2 years, Green has played 10 competitive minutes for Ireland. Gibson has played 77. Go figure.
Choosing 2 years is handy for your argument as Green was injured for a lot of internationals in those 2 years. Previous to that Green was a starter v Russia (h) and Slovakia (a). The 77 mins for Gibson are one measly game, v Macedonia. However, Green was picked for the squad for Poland and then brought on ahead of Gibson late against Spain.
Every minute I've seen Green in green has been an outrage: he tries to harry the opposition, doesn't get there and gives the ball away. A journeyman, imo.



2. Cox on the wing isn't the best idea, but he's a very hard worker and does give 110% each game. However, he has never been picked ahead of a "form winger".
I am not convinced by McClean at all, but he had form and momentum going into the Euros so he was a form winger then. And even if Cox did give 110% (he has been ineffective to poor in recent internationals IMO), giving 110% alone is not enough for international football.



3. Fahey as a man-marker was a bad idea, especially given that he never is asked to do that for his club (not even when he was in LOI either). However, I wouldn't say his attacking play was better than anyone else's. Statistically, he attempted 10 passes in 51 minutes, completing just six of them. McCarthy made 78% of 27 and Andrews 87% of 31. Taking Fahey off didn't open the floodgates. The penalty did.
And what lead to the penalty? Going with one man less in midfield, I'd say.
Statistics are great, but how many of all the midfield passes were backwards or to someone under pressure. I can remember Fahey spreading play once or twice off hand, without looking at the game again.



6. We're playing that style anyway, regardless of who is up front.
Not necessarily. With Hoolahan, Gibson, McCarthy, Long, Coleman in the team we wouldn't be hoofing it. With Walters up front and Wheland and Andrews not showing for passes we will be hoofing it.



7. Blind loyalty, but also because Keane proved during Euro 2012 qualification that he was still our best goalscoring threat. He also won the crucial penalty against Kazakhstan,
I'd put that one 90% down to Doyle's aggressive running, which is exactly what Keane doesn't give us at this stage. I like the guy, but he should be an impact sub now.



10. The Coleman deep-end/renewing the team points are kind of paradoxical.
Disagree. Renewing the team means systematically introducing and bedding players in before they face the world #2. Trap's approach is scattershot here.

[squareball]

I would give Trap a very generous 3 out of 10. Before the tournament we were playing terrible and getting some results but the signs were ominous. The only game we have performed and tried to play football is the loss against Greece. He has made some terrible decisions calling up players such as Green and McShane who are clearly not good enough while leaving out Coleman, Wilson and others who were playing well for a long time. Long still isn't a guaranteed first choice striker. He hasn't given enough players experience to help smooth the transition of Dunne, Duff, Given and Keane who he must have known might retire after the tournament. He has fallen out with too many players. Can't all be players fault. He has been too critical of our players. He has only started watching our players play for their clubs after four years of being our manager. It is clear that the style of play he adopts is results based which means he should be gone on results alone never mind the performances.

He now knows that he has to change. He is very very lucky to be in the job still only for the FAI are too spineless and broke to get rid of him. He has started to give young players a chance in friendlies. He has started going to games. He has started learning English. I can't find anymore positives. He should really have started doing these things the day he got the job not 4 years later when he was very lucky not to be sacked.

The way forward for any country is having a strong domestic league. This means that the many youngsters who are late bloomers can still have a platform to play at a good level. The domestic clubs form the identity and style of football/footballers who play the game. Now we are completely dependent on the English system which produces technically inferior players and have a different mentality than the rest of Europe. We are putting our future in a country whose own players struggle to get into their top teams and whose clubs favour buying rather than promoting their own. We need to set up a centre of excellence similar to an Ajax or Barcelona in Ireland where players can stay until they are 16, 17 or 18 rather than having to move hundreds of miles away to a different country where they are under huge pressure to succeed and away from their families. Hoolihan, Coleman and Long are three who came from LOI clubs and look more complete than the lads who have been in England since they were kids.

[p2011]

Add to this the fact that our defence - so reliable in 2011 - seems to have fallen apart, and we look like conceding in every game. Also, Trap has developed this irritating new habit of playing strikers on the wing, which is almost Staunton-esque in its absurdity. I think we'll be playing for nothing more than future seedings after March, unfortunately. Trap is not getting the best out of the current pool of players, and the trends of the last year are worrying, since Sweden and Austria present a much tougher proposition than Bulgaria/Cyprus or Slovakia/Armenia.


All sounds spot on to me, sad to say. I know we have 6 from 9 points, but so much is wrong at the moment. Shame if it the campaign does go astray like this. Think people don't realize what a propostion Austria in particular, and Sweden, will be.

[Crosby87]

Noa Baba, is our only hope.

[TrapAPony]

End of the Year Assessment for Trapattoni? Two words - Sack him!

[tetsujin1979]

Noa Baba, is our only hope.we need someone to record this on an R2 unit, stat!

[AlaskaFox]

Choosing 2 years is handy for your argument as Green was injured for a lot of internationals in those 2 years. Previous to that Green was a starter v Russia (h) and Slovakia (a). The 77 mins for Gibson are one measly game, v Macedonia. However, Green was picked for the squad for Poland and then brought on ahead of Gibson late against Spain.
Every minute I've seen Green in green has been an outrage: he tries to harry the opposition, doesn't get there and gives the ball away. A journeyman, imo.


Going back further than 2 years doesn't make sense, as you could say Lawrence was being selected ahead of McGeady or numerous other examples. The 10 mins for Green is 1/9th of one measly game.
Every minute has been an outrage? Well that's just ridiculous hyperbole.


I am not convinced by McClean at all, but he had form and momentum going into the Euros so he was a form winger then. And even if Cox did give 110% (he has been ineffective to poor in recent internationals IMO), giving 110% alone is not enough for international football.

Yes, but Cox was not played on the wing ahead of McClean at the Euros. He's been ineffective because he's being played out of position.



And what lead to the penalty? Going with one man less in midfield, I'd say.
Statistics are great, but how many of all the midfield passes were backwards or to someone under pressure. I can remember Fahey spreading play once or twice off hand, without looking at the game again.

An absolutely ridiculous challenge was the cause of the penalty. Nothing more.
A backwards pass is always, always, always better than giving the ball away.



Not necessarily. With Hoolahan, Gibson, McCarthy, Long, Coleman in the team we wouldn't be hoofing it. With Walters up front and Wheland and Andrews not showing for passes we will be hoofing it.

That has nothing to do with Walters though. That's to do with midfield. You can't blame Walters for the fact Whelan and Andrews don't look for the ball.


I'd put that one 90% down to Doyle's aggressive running, which is exactly what Keane doesn't give us at this stage. I like the guy, but he should be an impact sub now.

Keane would be a great impact sub, but there's no-one else that can give that 10% that made the difference there. Stephen Hunt is a great man for aggressive running too.


Disagree. Renewing the team means systematically introducing and bedding players in before they face the world #2. Trap's approach is scattershot here.

Isn't that what Trap does though? Systematically introduces players in friendlies? Take the team who played the Faroes. Westwood, Coleman, Wilson, Brady, Andrews, McCarthy, and Walters are all Trap debutants. Can't say that's not progression post-Stan.

[mark12345]

The way forward for any country is having a strong domestic league. Now we are completely dependent on the English system which produces technically inferior players and have a different mentality than the rest of Europe. We are putting our future in a country whose own players struggle to get into their top teams and whose clubs favour buying rather than promoting their own. We need to set up a centre of excellence similar to an Ajax or Barcelona in Ireland where players can stay until they are 16, 17 or 18 rather than having to move hundreds of miles away to a different country where they are under huge pressure to succeed and away from their families. Hoolihan, Coleman and Long are three who came from LOI clubs and look more complete than the lads who have been in England since they were kids.

So, so true and I would add the names of Doyle and Fahey to that. If, as I stated earlier, Viktoria Plzen, Rosenborg, Copenhagen and the Isreali clubs can do it on scant resources, then why can't we. School of excellence is the right way to go, but how is the coaching standard in Ireland. Are the coaches teaching the Irish kds to play hoof ball style in the typical English way or are there some coaches out there who can teach a kid the technical nuances. If not then we need to import them.

[ArdeeBhoy]

With what?
Magic beans?

With respect, the standard of the domestic league isn't good enough to utilise Ireland players, even ones as useless as McShane or Ward.
More importantly it doesn't generate sufficient income or turnover, sadly.

[geysir]

You can be very cruel, AB :)

[Charlie Darwin]

I believe the answer lies in looking away from English football to the little clubs of Europe who have managed to find a home in the Europa League. The likes of Viktoria Plzen, Young Boys, Rosenborg, Copenhagen, and the Israelis clubs are models the League of Ireland clubs should aspire to emulate. We nearly had it a couple of seasons ago when Shamrock Rovers had that great run in Europe, but this year they were bounced out before the competition proper got going.

How good would it be though if we could depend on an Irish domestic club or two to have a decent run in Europe each year? League of Ireland, I never thought I would say it, is the future for the internatioal team. The better the game at home - the larger the pool of players we are going to have to call on.

And proof of this I suppose is the performances of Long, Doyle and Hoolahan since they went to England. There is good talent at home and we need to give it a platform to develop into something worthwhile.
Do you attend LOI games?

[Acornvilla]

Start going to matches the lot of ye.

[SkStu]

Start going to matches the lot of ye.

If I could put my earlier post into one line, that'd do nicely.

Go support your local LoI team.

[SkStu]

Also, if sh!te can be marketed as effectively as this sh!te is, then there's hope for the LoI...

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=sn9otNdqPXo&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dsn9otNdqPXo

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except Kilmarnock who are probably better than every club in Ireland sadly, are part of an SPL whose crowds even now are probably double those of Irish clubs, excluding the Celtic/potential Zombies factor.
And whose players on average are a bit to somewhat better, are part of a more marketable product than the 4th most popular spectator sport on most of the island of Ireland...

Also a lot of people don't have a 'local' soccer club of great or even mediocre domestic status so the 'product' is fairly poor...

More optimistically, If they'll come or will be accommodated, foreign different coaches or training methods sounds a great idea.
Ideally based on a Scandinavian model?

[osarusan]

It's a very difficult problem to solve.

Of course, by having a stronger domestic league which could offer better wages, we'd have more players staying at home. The best would still leave, but players who currently head to League 2 or League 1 clubs might be convinced to stay at home, although there could still be the belief that simply by playing in the UK, a player is more 'in the shop window' than in Ireland. Having said that, if LOI teams were a stronger force in Europe, that would be a shop window that League 1/2 clubs can't offer.

But that is only half the battle - just because players are staying at home, doesn't mean they're getting better trained than they would in England's lower league teams. Facilities in the football league are far far superior to virtually anything in the LOI - so there's no reason to assume that they would be trained better or differently.

Unless there is a stronger domestic league convincing players it's worthwhile to stay at home (financially and for their career) combined with some external training faciilties (as in, outside their club training), I'm not sure how we're going to systematically produce a better standard of player.

[mark12345]

Do you attend LOI games?

No, I live abroad

[mark12345]

The type of coach I would like to import into Ireland is not the Mourinho or Roberto De Matteo, it's a youth coach from a place like Chile or Argentina, or even Africa at this stage because they seem to be producing a conveyor belt of very good players. It would be someone in an academy with a track record of producing tehnically good players. It's what the Irish youngsters need at this stage.

[SkStu]

Except Kilmarnock who are probably better than every club in Ireland sadly,

Except they're not. Take a look at Irish sides records compared to Scots sides over the last ten years as well as any head to heads. I can't think of at least two "upsets"... the only real difference between the two leagues in terms of quality is Celtic.

By the way, since when does crowd size indicate quality as your post seems to imply heavily? The Iranian Premier League, where Eamon Zayed was a star, has some of the highest attendances of any league.



More optimistically, If they'll come or will be accommodated, foreign different coaches or training methods sounds a great idea.
Ideally based on a Scandinavian model?

What is it that you like about the Scandinavian model of coaching/training?

[Charlie Darwin]

No, I live abroad
Do you support the league in other ways? Do you attend games when you're home?

[nigel-harps1954]

Except Kilmarnock who are probably better than every club in Ireland sadly, are part of an SPL whose crowds even now are probably double those of Irish clubs, excluding the Celtic/potential Zombies factor.
And whose players on average are a bit to somewhat better, are part of a more marketable product than the 4th most popular spectator sport on most of the island of Ireland...

Also a lot of people don't have a 'local' soccer club of great or even mediocre domestic status so the 'product' is fairly poor...

More optimistically, If they'll come or will be accommodated, foreign different coaches or training methods sounds a great idea.
Ideally based on a Scandinavian model?

A very weak and ill-informed post.

Conor Sammon went over to Kilmarnock from the League of Ireland and was hailed as a great signing, banging in goals for fun. In the League of Ireland he was nothing more than an average striker.

The Scottish League is over hyped, with a very poor standard of football.

Attendances are large because publicity is large. When there is plenty of media coverage, naturally, people are going to attend.
If the League of Ireland got the same amount of media publicity, we'd have a much, much stronger league, with much higher attendances.

It's a credit to the League of Ireland, that with such poor media coverage, and such bigotry and outright hatred of the League, that teams like Sligo, Shamrock Rovers and Cork city can attract 3,500+ to each and every home game over a league season.

As been said already, it's been backed up in recent times with European results that the League of Ireland is stronger than the Scottish League in terms of football (outside of the big two).

The quicker people realise that, the better for our league.

[Olé Olé]

Conor Sammon went over to Kilmarnock from the League of Ireland and was hailed as a great signing, banging in goals for fun. In the League of Ireland he was nothing more than an average striker.


Very poor example. Sammon was 22 heading over to Kilmarnock and it took him 2 seasons to find his feet at all; I don't think he "was hailed as a great signing" or "banging in goals for fun" when he scored 1 league goal in each of his first two seasons at Kilmarnock. It wasn't until he was 24 that he began to start scoring and it would be difficult to attribute that development to any factors or trace it to any level of parity or disparity between the SPL and LOI due to the time variables.

He seems to be doing okay in the Championship now.

[Charlie Darwin]

Sammon is a strange one. He clearly always had potential but I, and a lot of other people, couldn't see it. I remember him being called up to Ireland underage teams while he was at UCD and looking fairly useless.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except they're not. Take a look at Irish sides records compared to Scots sides over the last ten years as well as any head to heads. I can't think of at least two "upsets"... the only real difference between the two leagues in terms of quality is Celtic.
Really? Much as I'd love it to be, do tell?
Not a gambling man, but I reckon the UEFA co-efficient for Scotland in the last decade is a lot higher than the best Irish clubs, sadly.


What is it that you like about the Scandinavian model of coaching/training?
Erm, countries of a similar size with similar interest nationally in the sport.

Would love to take on German or Dutch styles, but we'd never get their top coaches in their prime...


A very weak and ill-informed post.
You mean your own about Mr.Sammon?


Conor Sammon went over to Kilmarnock from the League of Ireland and was hailed as a great signing, banging in goals for fun. In the League of Ireland he was nothing more than an average striker.


The Scottish League is over hyped, with a very poor standard of football.
Agreed it's not great, but on average, even as a proud Irishman who's been to half the LOI grounds, that standard is generally even lower.
By your definition standards it would be 'sh*t'?


Attendances are large because publicity is large. When there is plenty of media coverage, naturally, people are going to attend.
If the League of Ireland got the same amount of media publicity, we'd have a much, much stronger league, with much higher attendances.
Which pretty much confirms what I said in my last post on the subject. That and it's a 'better', at least marginally, product.


It's a credit to the League of Ireland, that with such poor media coverage, and such bigotry and outright hatred of the League, that teams like Sligo, Shamrock Rovers and Cork city can attract 3,500+ to each and every home game over a league season.
Wow. County hurling crowds and even midweek race-meetings can draw bigger crowds.
And 'bigotry and outright hatred'?? Are you sure, really??


As been said already, it's been backed up in recent times with European results that the League of Ireland is stronger than the Scottish League in terms of football (outside of the big two).

The quicker people realise that, the better for our league.

Hmm. Scepticism abounds. See my co-efficient point above. And the overall record of all Scottish clubs is far superior to Irish ones. Wales would be a more reasonable comparison. Or perhaps Finland...

[Charlie Darwin]

Really? Much as I'd love it to be, do tell?
Not a gambling man, but I reckon the UEFA co-efficient for Scotland in the last decade is a lot higher than the best Irish clubs, sadly.
Take Celtic and Rangers out and Irish clubs have a better record, which is the point Nigel was making. Head to head records bear this out, despite the vast financial advantage of Scottish clubs.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I know but Celtic and the former Rangers are part of Scottish football.

If they didnt' exist, assuming all their 250k+ fans still were involved in the sport, then the overall resources of crowds and finances would just be more evenly distributed. Including competition in Europe. And 50-60k active fans...

Far in excess of anything Irish soccer could ever dream of.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Anyway, the performance of the current Ireland team, as has been said above, has precious little to do with the state of the domestic league.
Much more about the conservative tactics of a geriatric Italian.

Loads of countries have their best players play outside their domestic leagues. Even Brazil. So what?

[Charlie Darwin]

I know but Celtic and the former Rangers are part of Scottish football.

If they didnt' exist, assuming all their 250k+ fans still were involved in the sport, then the overall resources of crowds and finances would just be more evenly distributed. Including competition in Europe. And 50-60k active fans...

Far in excess of anything Irish soccer could ever dream of.
I think it's a huge assumption to say the Scottish league's resources would be anything close to the current level were Celtic and Rangers not to exist. There are only so many people in these towns and the evidence is that only people in Glasgow really give a fig about their local sides. If Celtic and Rangers ceased to exist, I really can't see Ross County's attendances increasing proportionately.

And you're dodging the point now. You're saying Kilmarnock are vastly better than any LOI side and citing the coefficient as evidence. It's been pointed out that the coefficient is solely down to Celtic and Rangers, so I have trouble seeing why it suggests Kilmarnock are a better side. The fact they can occasionally beat Celtic given 4+ attempts per year means very little when any time a LOI side faces an SPL side, the LOI side tends to come out on top.


Anyway, the performance of the current Ireland team, as has been said above, has precious little to do with the state of the domestic league.
Much more about the conservative tactics of a geriatric Italian.

Loads of countries have their best players play outside their domestic leagues. Even Brazil. So what?
The difference is that Brazil have more players than us in every league in the world bar our own.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I think it's a huge assumption to say the Scottish league's resources would be anything close to the current level were Celtic and Rangers not to exist. There are only so many people in these towns and the evidence is that only people in Glasgow really give a fig about their local sides. If Celtic and Rangers ceased to exist, I really can't see Ross County's attendances increasing proportionately.

Have you ever been to CP or Govan? I have and attendees and other SC members from outside Glasgow run into the tens of thousands on both sides. And right across most of the populated areas.
Essentially, Scotland has far more active fans for a small country with around 50k match-going and maybe more, excluding Celtic/Rangers.


You're saying Kilmarnock are vastly better than any LOI side and citing the coefficient as evidence. It's been pointed out that the coefficient is solely down to Celtic and Rangers, so I have trouble seeing why it suggests Kilmarnock are a better side. The fact they can occasionally beat Celtic given 4+ attempts per year means very little when any time a LOI side faces an SPL side, the LOI side tends to come out on top.
I'm glad the Irish teams come out on top v.Scottish teams. Wow.

But SPL clubs do have a better record v.other European teams. Neither is great, granted.

Certainly in Euro competition overall, whilst maybe the last decade, or so, has seen a narrowing in the overall gap.
Will even allow you the advantage of excluding Celtic and the Govan tribute act.


Lastly, what about all the other countries whose top players are based elsewhere ...
Excluding Brazil.

[Charlie Darwin]

Have you ever been to CP or Govan? I have and attendees and other SC members from outside Glasgow run into the tens of thousands on both sides. And right across most of the populated areas.
Essentially, Scotland has far more active fans for a small country with around 50k match-going and maybe more, excluding Celtic/Rangers.
Again, you're arguing about attendances. More Scottish people go to games than Irish, this is undisputed. My point is that you said "overall resources of crowds and finance would be more evenly distributed" but I'm saying they'd be distributing a much smaller pie, even if it is bigger than the Irish pie. Busloads of fans descending on Celtic Park from all corners of Scotland wouldn't suddenly migrate to other teams.



I'm glad the Irish teams come out on top v.Scottish teams. Wow.

But SPL clubs do have a better record v.other European teams. Neither is great, granted.

Certainly in Euro competition overall, whilst maybe the last decade, or so, has seen a narrowing in the overall gap.
Will even allow you the advantage of excluding Celtic and the Govan tribute act.
Err, do they have a better record? Who have the clubs outside the old firm beaten recently?

[ArdeeBhoy]

On the first point, knowing some of them they'd also go and see their local sides. Albeit in certain cases with less enthusiasm....

As for the second, the relative club records of Scottish clubs, even if they were a 100 times better or worse, are irrelevant to the Irish national side.

[SkStu]

Lets refocus.

1) crowd size has nothing to do with quality of football. More likely to be down to local pride and/or clever import marketing aimed at gullible fools.

2) Irish sides have a better record than all but two of the Scottish league clubs. Equivalent support (financial and general public) would spread that gap even more. A more successful league = a more attractive option = keep our young players here a few years longer = more success = viable alternative for players = bigger selection pool & control over our own international destiny.

3) you know nothing about the "Scandanavian model" but think it sounds like a great idea because we're similar in size. Jaysus.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except you're wrong on all 3 counts.

1) Scottish people are up to 15 times more gullible and foolish than Irish soccer fans. Yeah, right. Plenty of rational logic there.

2) I vehemently dispute this as I'm sure I'm right. But I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, if you can show a better co-efficient by Irish clubs over Scottish ones, achieved without the contribution of Celtic and the former Rangers say, since the year 2000. Definitely not before.

Anyway, I digress. The LOI, even assuming it is financially sustainable in most cases does not have the resources for a more successful league in terms of say, just facilities.
And that's before you ignore the very small cultural issue of other sports;GAA (x2), rugby and horse-racing drawing bigger crowds.
Even assuming the clubs all had wonderful stadia of say minimum 15k capacity, they have to able to fill them...
Most would be happy/delighted with a 5k average.
And how likely is that in the current economic climate...

As for being more 'successful, 'attractive', these are just meaningless Utopian platitudes unless you can overcome the antipathy of local players to ignore the appeal of eg. Britain, whose whole system in terms of accommodating players of varying abilities is far more advanced than ours ever could be.
Simply based on almost a thousand professional/semi-professional clubs. Not to mention the option of many other EU leagues.

Similarly, the appeal to fans, in a good number of cases. Which is hardly a crime.

I hope the domestic standard of soccer in Ireland continues to improve, but it's a complete fantasy to expect even 'donkeys' like McShane & Ward to play in it regularly at the peak of their careers.
There isn't the money for starters, even from 15k crowds.

As for a 'bigger selection pool & control over own international destiny'. More fantasy.

Yeah, sure it'd be great if the FAI managed our international players full-time.
They'd all be doing a Stephen Ireland, continually dealing with those jokers.

3) It was just a suggestion. Which could work?
All small countries with not dissimilar climate and outlook. And whose coaches might see appeal in coming to Ireland (we're actually cheaper to live in!)

We can hardly expect all the Irish youth to suddenly switch on the Latin emphasis on technical skills.
Where's your suggestion, anyway? Jaysus, indeed.

[Charlie Darwin]

On the first point, knowing some of them they'd also go and see their local sides. Albeit in certain cases with less enthusiasm....

As for the second, the relative club records of Scottish clubs, even if they were a 100 times better or worse, are irrelevant to the Irish national side.
You're running from the argument now. I never said it was relevant. You are the one who said Kilmarnock were much better than any LOI side despite evidence to the contrary. I took issue with that and you can't just claim the topic has been derailed to avoid defending your point.


Except you're wrong on all 3 counts.

1) Scottish people are up to 15 times more gullible and foolish than Irish soccer fans. Yeah, right. Plenty of rational logic there.
Scottish people aren't the only gullible people who go to SPL games.


2) I vehemently dispute this as I'm sure I'm right. But I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, if you can show a better co-efficient by Irish clubs over Scottish ones, achieved without the contribution of Celtic and the former Rangers say, since the year 2000. Definitely not before.
Who cares about before 2000? Nobody said Irish clubs were better than Scottish clubs before 2000. We're talking about now, and now I can point to Motherwell, who played 4 games in Europe this year and lost 4, and Dundee United and Hearts who each played 2 and lost 1 apiece, with not a single win between them.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Actually I said 'probably'. And your 'argument' isn't any better than mine. Especially re.the irish national team

And who are all the 'other' gullible people then?

Lastly, you have to have some sort of benchmark to make any valid comparison. And some relative criteria in terms of the teams played. As in the Scottish clubs played higher-ranked sides than the Irish ones.
But don't let that cloud your vision of how 'wonderful' Irish club soccer currently is...

[Charlie Darwin]

Actually I said 'probably'. And your 'argument' isn't any better than mine. Especially re.the irish national team
I didn't make an argument re: the Irish national team so I'm hardly surprised it's no better than yours. You said Kilmarnock were 'probably' better than every Irish team which is still patently untrue. Saying 'probably' doesn't make your point any better. Kilmarnock are 'probably' better than Barcelona. Hey, you can't argue with me, I said probably!


And who are all the 'other' gullible people then?
The thousands of Irish people who fly to Glasgow every weekend.


Lastly, you have to have some sort of benchmark to make any valid comparison. And some relative criteria in terms of the teams played. As in the Scottish clubs played higher-ranked sides than the Irish ones.
But don't let that cloud your vision of how 'wonderful' Irish club soccer currently is...
This season, yeah, mainly due to the fact all the clubs were bumped one spot above their station owing to Rangers' demotion. In previous years, no. Shamrock Rovers played FC Copenhagen, Partizan Belgrade, Spurs and Rubin last year - all sides with recent Champions League experience.

[ArdeeBhoy]

So if you didn't make an argument, why are you even 'contributing' then?
Still reckon even Kilmarnock are better;no-one's presented any credible evidence to counteract this. Just largely one-eyed opinion.

What 'thousands'? If you want to concentrate on the now, need to check your facts...

And fair play to Shams getting to the group stages, but one year out of how many? Given a good number of those years it was virtually impossible for them to get anywhere near Europe, given their league position was so poor...

[Charlie Darwin]

So if you didn't make an argument, why are you even 'contributing' then?
Because you made a silly comment about football.


Still reckon even Kilmarnock are better;no-one's presented any credible evidence to counteract this. Just largely one-eyed opinion.
You've presented no credible evidence to support it other than the fact Celtic and Rangers are better than Irish sides. We know this already, however it doesn't make Kilmarnock or any other Scottish side vicariously better, particularly when the factual evidence, i.e. head to head meetings, suggests Irish sides tend to triumph.


What 'thousands'? If you want to concentrate on the now, need to check your facts...
I was a bit overeager in my estimate, but surely between Rangers and Celtic it is in the hundreds.


And fair play to Shams getting to the group stages, but one year out of how many? Given a good number of those years it was virtually impossible for them to get anywhere near Europe, given their league position was so poor...
One year more than Hearts and Dundee United. And Kilmarnock :)

[geysir]

It's no big secret that the 'other' SPL clubs don't do well in European competition, it would be a good season if a few draws were picked up, they just don't seem to bother about it so much (unless they get an English team). I don't think that it's a good slide rule to judge the standard of the 'other' SPL teams compared to the LOI clubs.
The SPL football standard is higher than the LOI, not a lot higher but higher all the same. That's my opinion, based on watching both on TV.
One indicator, a recent Scottish national squad for a friendly had 7 players from 'other' SPL clubs, the u21 competitive squad had 9 of them.
If any LOI club had the same facilities as say Kilmarnock, re training, income, stadium, with players on a FT contract, I'd have little doubt they would improve all round.

The thread issue is about Trap and an assessment of how he has managed the player resources as it exists to him. I assume he has all the facilities he needs to manage the squad. The fact that those players are all abroad is a concern, but not Trap's concern.

[ArdeeBhoy]

That's a fair post and makes more sense than those by others, besides myself, that preceded it.
Because of far higher investment, grounds and facilities in Ireland have a long way to go compared to a good number of other European countries with similar size populations or even similar levels of club football.

However it comes down to using raw talent, based on competition with other sports which in the case of soccer is quite tough. And tends to be a bit cyclical at best for small countries. As in far better leagues can have even worse international sides...

Also to do with the current coaching regimes & organisation of youth football by provincial FA & the FAI which would know much less about, but that's where any changes would happen and would take at least 10 years to have any great effect.
Don't know of any great leadership or even desire to change, coming from even senior clubs, whose priorities I suspect are mainly survival, both sporting and financial...